I am still getting powned by Wolfs... >_>

[TheReflexWonder]

I never seen counterpicking in Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, Soul Calibur, or Virtual Fighter. Hell, I barley saw any Counterpicking in Melee except for the very Bottom Tier characters.

Yoshi isn't a character that requires Counterpicking for certain characters, because, again, Yoshi has good matchups and doesn't need to.

I'm just a guy who doesn't like Counterpicking in general. Winning is true, but it's not the spirit of it. I would gladly Sacrifice a few wins to stick with my main. It just doesn't seem right just using someone else to cover the weaknesses. I rather just ride it out and play smart, actually learning how to deal with those characters

You must not have been looking very hard; US Super Turbo was all about counterpicks. It's always been much less popular in Japan, but you were weird if you didn't have at least three characters that you used here.

In general, it would be smart to have a backup character, just to broaden your horizons. Yoshi's matchups obviously aren't that good, or he would be placing a lot better than he does.

I am just as adamant about using the characters I enjoy to succeed. I used Bowser against Marths in Melee, and with enough practice, I won that matchup. Sometimes, it's just plain dumb for someone who wants to win to continue using the same character all the time, but someone will succeed with enough effort, and I wish that person the best. (Hell, I do it, XD.) I was still able to understand that Bowser had it bad against some characters. Honestly, what does Yoshi (Or just about anyone) do against an intelligent Dedede who is under a platform, F-Tilt spamming? It's hard sometimes.

 

[Mmac]

You must not have been looking very hard; US Super Turbo was all about counterpicks. It's always been much less popular in Japan, but you were weird if you didn't have at least three characters that you used here.

I only used Guile, and I seem to have little problem with everyone >_>

I dunno, I was never big on Street Fighter....

In general, it would be smart to have a backup character, just to broaden your horizons. Yoshi's matchups obviously aren't that good, or he would be placing a lot better than he does.

To be fair, there's only Two Yoshi's that I know are on the completive scene. I think Burnt is too, but I'm not too sure. Obviously he's not going to look good compared to the hundreds that represent MetaKnigh, Snake, Marth, Dedede, Game & Watch, ROB, ect., but how exactly does that effect his Matchups? What does that have to do with anything?

Honestly, what does Yoshi (Or just about anyone) do against an intelligent Dedede who is under a platform, F-Tilt spamming? It's hard sometimes.

Uhhh.... Use Eggs? Force him to come to you?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

To be fair, there's only Two Yoshi's that I know are on the completive scene. I think Burnt is too, but I'm not too sure. Obviously he's not going to look good compared to the hundreds that represent MetaKnigh, Snake, Marth, Dedede, Game & Watch, ROB, ect., but how exactly does that effect his Matchups? What does that have to do with anything?

Because none of those competitive Yoshis are placing particularly well. I'm not saying that Yoshi is a terrible character, but I am saying that he has more than his fair share of uphill matchups, which can be a serious pain in a decently-sized tournament or any competitive setting. The fact that there are less Yoshi mains than other mains doesn't mean that they're working any less hard to excel with their character.

Uhhh.... Use Eggs? Force him to come to you?

I said an intelligent Dedede. You can't make him come to you. That's mostly what the platform is for. He can just shield the eggs and F-Tilt you from a distance.

 

[Mmac]

I said an intelligent Dedede. You can't make him come to you. That's mostly what the platform is for. He can just shield the eggs and F-Tilt you from a distance.

Yoshi's Eggs > Waddle Dee's. It doesn't matter he can see it coming, he can't attack back. He's going to have to come after you sometime.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Yoshi's Eggs > Waddle Dee's. It doesn't matter he can see it coming, he can't attack back. He's going to have to come after you sometime.

I said nothing about Waddle Dees, but it's all a matter of jumping away from you and tossing one every now and again to bug you. He can shield you and slowly get close, or just stay away and strategically throw Waddle Dees from afar, because he's probably winning already, because he's Dedede. :/

Besides, if he really wanted to, if he starts running right when you start to throw an egg, he can probably get a grab in, or he can inch towards you with a F-Tilt, especially if he still has a platform above him. You have yet to say anything that I don't see my brother countering easily (he's a Dedede main, and is actually rather good), and there are easily better players than that.

 

[Mmac]

If he's jumping away, or getting closer, then he's NO LONGER UNDER THE PLATFORM! I thought this was the entire point, to get him away from the platform. If he's not under the platform, then he can approach him just fine.

Also, Dedede can never beat out an Egg, plus he's too big, and will be hit by a low horizontal anyways

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If he's jumping away, or getting closer, then he's NO LONGER UNDER THE PLATFORM! I thought this was the entire point, to get him away from the platform. If he's not under the platform, then he can approach him just fine.

Also, Dedede can never beat out an Egg, plus he's too big, and will be hit by a low horizontal anyways

If he's jumping away, it's to safely throw a Waddle Dee before moving under the platform again before Yoshi can do anything about it.

If he's closer, and not an idiot, he'll be wary of what you're doing. You should still have a tough time approaching him...and then he can just walk back again if he feels threatened at all.

 

[Deleted member]

Yea mmac, i go to tournaments(meaning im on the competative scene, also i know more than 2 besides me).

Uhhh, since when has D3 being above u on a platform been bad O_O

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Uhhh, since when has D3 being above u on a platform been bad O_O

Never. That's not what's being discussed. Hypothetically, Dedede is under a platform, like on Yoshi's Island or one of the bottom two Battlefield platforms.

 

[Bwett]

You tell him, Mmac! lol Yeah, there is absolutely no way DDD can wait for you if you spam eggs. Just stay out of range of ftilt and sure he can shield the eggs, but he can't shield every one of them. His shield will eventually run low and you will tack on damage. An intelligent DDD would then be the one that approached, not sit back getting pelted with 9% a piece.

EDIT: DDD is not safe under the platform. ECE along with just low trajectory eggs can hit him.

EDIT #2: DDD has a much harder time approaching a ETS spamming yoshi than yoshi does with retreating bairs

 

[Mmac]

If he's jumping away, it's to safely throw a Waddle Dee before moving under the platform again before Yoshi can do anything about it.

Except two problems.

1) If he's trying to snipe Yoshi from afar, Yoshi can probably outrun and under the Dee, and he'll be in his face.

2) Yoshi can easily shield it. Hell, he can even deflect it with a dash as long as it's not a spiky.

Plus if we're talking about Battlefield here, than he will be over the edge, and putting himself in a very bad spot to be in. And don't even say Dededecide because that wouldn't work.

If he's closer, and not an idiot, he'll be wary of what you're doing. You should still have a tough time approaching him...and then he can just walk back again if he feels threatened at all.

Not at all. Dedede has a Blindspot about 50* where neither his Ftilt or Utilt will hit. Since Yoshi almost always attacks from that degree, he can get in easily with a Bair, and his Airspeed will move past Dedede, preventing Shieldgrabbing. Then Yoshi will be under the platform!

Therefore, Yoshi captures the Platform, locking out their spawns. Just set up sentry's to take care of the rest...

Oh wait, wrong game

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You tell him, Mmac! lol Yeah, there is absolutely no way DDD can wait for you if you spam eggs. Just stay out of range of ftilt and sure he can shield the eggs, but he can't shield every one of them. His shield will eventually run low and you will tack on damage. An intelligent DDD would then be the one that approached, not sit back getting pelted with 9% a piece.

Dedede can roll backwards, or simply powershield the eggs. It costs him no shield, and is very easy to do in Brawl. Anyone can shield every one of them if they're a decent distance away. I don't see where the notion that he can't just avoid them altogether came from; it's quite viable. We're supposed to be assuming that an intelligent Dedede knows how to do basic techniques efficiently.

 

[PolMex23]

Wolf?

Brawl IS a more dynamic version of Rock, Paper, Scissors, except less balanced.

I believe winning is in the spirit of fighting games. There is no rule that says you have to play only one character. Proud of your main? That's fine, just don't get upset when your counter pops up, it was your own fault for not taking precautions right? I say, why try to put a square peg in a round hole? Pick the right tool (character) for the job, get it done, and then go back to your main. Better than choking on your pride trying to force something that isn't working imo. But hey, it's your call.

OMg....genius.

Im a luigi main, an now in FL everyone knows. Yet, my pride has led me into tourneys blind ignoring the fact that i will face a metaknight eventually. This last tourney I got 13th out of 64.

And i lost to 2 Mks, both winners an losers. In winners i was one win away to face seibrik, top 3 player right now in FL. An against DDD, i laugh. Yet, I could not do a upset...since I lost to a MK.

And I KNOW, that it is impossible for Luigi to beat MK. So what I can go toe for toe on stage...take me off an im dead... But I am stubborn. So it took me about 7 tourneys now. So im done with it. Im done losing to players that are obvious, predictable, an to be able to think as the match goes on "hes going to to this, an i cant do ****"..im just done.

What you said was right, an for those who want to be good, you must pick up a counter. I picked Snake, i know D3, and I feel like picking up Bowser. But im focusing on Snake.

Jeez, I really want to see how I do this sat. HRNUT said im placing top 3, but im still nervous about MKs. Hoe my Snake stays strong on the ground an doesn't get gimped to hard. Reflex good **** at FAST1 man, I didnt go in singles cuz im stupid. But good **** man. Abe says hes better though =) Sucks M2K had to go D3 on you..=(

 

[TheReflexWonder]

1) If he's trying to snipe Yoshi from afar, Yoshi can probably outrun and under the Dee, and he'll be in his face.

He's not trying to snipe Yoshi from afar, he's trying to get Yoshi to approach him or remain a weak threat. He would throw it late in his jump.

2) Yoshi can easily shield it. Hell, he can even deflect it with a dash as long as it's not a spiky.

But because of how Yoshi's shield works, he won't have enough time to counterattack. I will somewhat concede the dash attack, though. If done right, you should be close to in his face if you didn't get unlucky with a Gordo.

Plus if we're talking about Battlefield here, than he will be over the edge, and putting himself in a very bad spot to be in. And don't even say Dededecide because that wouldn't work.

He won't be over the edge; there's leeway for him to stay on the stage.

Dedede has a Blindspot about 50* where neither his Ftilt or Utilt will hit...

You mean, where a B-Air or F-Air would hit you perfectly with nothing good Yoshi can trade hits with?

 

[Bwett]

Dedede can roll backwards, or simply powershield the eggs. It costs him no shield, and is very easy to do in Brawl. Anyone can shield every one of them if they're a decent distance away. I don't see where the notion that he can't just avoid them altogether came from; it's quite viable. We're supposed to be assuming that an intelligent Dedede knows how to do basic techniques efficiently.

I don't care who we're talking about. Everyone makes mistakes. I'll spam 100 eggs if I have to and it is entirely unlikely that they will powershield all or enough to keep the shield strong. Also, DDD doesn't have a fast enough air game or ground game to avoid them at all. I'm not approaching DDD if he's not gonna approach me. I win if he doesn't approach, no question about it.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I don't care who we're talking about. Everyone makes mistakes. I'll spam 100 eggs if I have to and it is entirely unlikely that they will powershield all or enough to keep the shield strong. Also, DDD doesn't have a fast enough air game or ground game to avoid them at all. I'm not approaching DDD if he's not gonna approach me. I win if he doesn't approach, no question about it.

Then there is no argument to be had. There's no "winning" this if that's what you think. That's why I said an intelligent Dedede (and I'm milking that at this point, heh). You're welcome to adopt that mindset, but if people practice enough, they won't made silly mistakes like that...much like a serious Yoshi will deal with his counters if he practices the matchup enough.

 

[Mmac]

He's not trying to snipe Yoshi from afar, he's trying to get Yoshi to approach him or remain a weak threat. He would throw it late in his jump.

Ok, fair enough

But because of how Yoshi's shield works, he won't have enough time to counterattack. I will somewhat concede the dash attack, though. If done right, you should be close to in his face if you didn't get unlucky with a Gordo.

Well it's not like Yoshi's egg is to slow to break out of anyways. Infact due to the stopping properties of the Egg, Yoshi can just Powershield to stop, and then he's in a perfect setup for a Bair Approach. Pretty much the same deal with his Dash attacks if it's not a Doo (Doo's cancel out, but also sets up for Bair)

He won't be over the edge; there's leeway for him to stay on the stage.

Alright, but he's not under the platform, and will probably be hit off the edge anyways

You mean, where a B-Air or F-Air would hit you perfectly with nothing good Yoshi can trade hits with?

Only one problem, You said that Dedede was coming right at Yoshi. He wouldn't have enough time to do his Slow Fair, or to stop, turn around, and Bair him

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Well it's not like Yoshi's egg is to slow to break out of anyways. Infact due to the stopping properties of the Egg, Yoshi can just Powershield to stop, and then he's in a perfect setup for a Bair Approach. Pretty much the same deal with his Dash attacks if it's not a Doo (Doo's cancel out, but also sets up for Bair)

Alright, but he's not under the platform, and will probably be hit off the edge anyways

If Yoshi's not far away, Dedede will running grab by anticipating an Egg Toss and screw with Yoshi, instead of throwing a Waddle Dee. If Yoshi's not close, then Dedede's not going to get punished for throwing a Waddle Dee.

Only one problem, You said that Dedede was coming right at Yoshi. He wouldn't have enough time to do his Slow Fair, or to stop, turn around, and Bair him

The F-Air is slow, but ranged. He can do it in certain situations. As for his B-Air, he doesn't need to stop; in fact, turning around only takes a couple frames, if not just one. It's easy for him to catch you with a B-Air.

 

[Mmac]

If Yoshi's not far away, Dedede will running grab by anticipating an Egg Toss and screw with Yoshi, instead of throwing a Waddle Dee. If Yoshi's not close, then Dedede's not going to get punished for throwing a Waddle Dee.

Again, Yoshi isn't going to throw point blank at him, even though Dedede can't get through anyways because he's too big[/SONIC]

But you just said that he's attacking with an Egg. If he's throwing an Egg during your Dedede toss, then you are going to get hit.

Wait... are you saying Yoshi is going to approach with an Egg?

The F-Air is slow, but ranged. He can do it in certain situations. As for his B-Air, he doesn't need to stop; in fact, turning around only takes a couple frames, if not just one. It's easy for him to catch you with a B-Air.

But it's TOO SLOW! [/SONIC] It doesn't matter if it's ranged. If he uses it too early, then Yoshi can see it and Airdodge. If you do it too late, then you're already hit. Bair just won't work because you are moving forward. To turn around, you going to have to jump twice. by the time on your 2nd Jump, you are already hit.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Again, Yoshi isn't going to throw point blank at him, even though Dedede can't get through anyways because he's too big[/SONIC]

But you just said that he's attacking with an Egg. If he's throwing an Egg during your Dedede toss, then you are going to get hit.

Wait... are you saying Yoshi is going to approach with an Egg?

If Yoshi's not throwing it point-blank, then Dedede only needs to walk away slightly. Yoshi doesn't recover from the Egg Toss fast enough to follow up with anything while they're stunned. Dedede can avoid the Up-B and toss a Waddle Dee before Yoshi can regain control, meaning that Yoshi won't be able to counterattack. He'll have to shield it or avoid it, which isn't hurting Dedede.

Yoshi isn't approaching with an Egg Toss; he's just throwing it to outcamp Dedede, which doesn't work.

Bair just won't work because you are moving forward. To turn around, you going to have to jump twice. by the time on your 2nd Jump, you are already hit.

No, just run at the opponent, start your turn-around-while-running animation, and immediately do a single jump. You'll be turned around.

 

[Mmac]

If Yoshi's not throwing it point-blank, then Dedede only needs to walk away slightly. Yoshi doesn't recover from the Egg Toss fast enough to follow up with anything while they're stunned. Dedede can avoid the Up-B and toss a Waddle Dee before Yoshi can regain control, meaning that Yoshi won't be able to counterattack. He'll have to shield it or avoid it, which isn't hurting Dedede.

You're acting like Yoshi Egg Toss is a Falcon Punch. Yoshi recovers as soon as the egg hits the ground. He won't have enough time to get in. Besides, again, he's not going pointblank anyways. Yoshi isn't going to throw pointblank anyways because he isn't dumb like that.

I thought this was during his Dee Toss. Anyways, Yoshi Throws Egg, Dedede Jumps up to avoid it, and then throw a Dedede. Yoshi would have already recovered long before it hit's him. Besides, won't the Dee be blocked by the platform which you retreated from?

Yoshi isn't approaching with an Egg Toss; he's just throwing it to outcamp Dedede, which doesn't work.

Uh... no. Yoshi is throwing Eggs to get Dedede away from the platform. Since the entire goal of this debate was to get Dedede away from the platform, and since many of your answers resulted as such. I think Yoshi is successful in this debate.

No, just run at the opponent, start your turn-around-while-running animation, and immediately do a single jump. You'll be turned around.

Alright, forgot about that. but does his Bair cover 50* above him?


Look, this is getting stupid. The entire point of this semi-debate was to post on how Yoshi can get Dedede out of the platform for a safe approach. I pretty much proved he can, and now the entire thing is just overkill.

Plus this topic is about Wolf >_>

 

[PRiDE]

I thought we were talking about Wolf? lol

Curious.. JUST how many Yoshi mains out there actually compete in BIG major tourns? How do you place? I only know of Bwett, myself and Gideon that have attended large tournaments.

 

[Mmac]

I got Top8 on an Online Tournament that had 256 entrants in April.


But it was online

I usually average about Top4 on Online Tournaments.

I really want to do Offline Tournaments, because I know I can do well, but do to my location, I can't

 

[kkkoala]

I'm just saying it's a legitimite strategy. If you REALLY want to beat those Wolfs it's the best and most efficient course of action. You guys made it sound like switching is some kind of sin or something, which isn't really true.

And bwett, he can reflect your eggs, and you can't punish him unless you were already pretty close to him, in which case you probably would not be throwing eggs anyway. From the OP it sounds like Pride is having trouble with a campy laser sort of wolf, so trying punish his approach may not be an option here. Also note that his lasers will eat through your b-air and other ariels.

im with u but its not as much of a sin on their part as it is rep, which is prolly half of the reason any1 picks up yoshi. if u beat some1 w/yoshi u can generally dance around them (oh i do mean literally) and if u lose on yoshi, "hey its yoshi"




there really is nothing u can do vs spammy noobs who pick the right char to b a spammy noob on. if ur lucky enough to play them in a nontourny u can suicide 3 times, irl u can punch them in the face til they try actually playing><


rofl @ ur vid bwatt, i wouldnt go for spike vs a sideB, 9/10 times im the 1 spiked

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You're acting like Yoshi Egg Toss is a Falcon Punch. Yoshi recovers as soon as the egg hits the ground. He won't have enough time to get in. Besides, again, he's not going pointblank anyways. Yoshi isn't going to throw pointblank anyways because he isn't dumb like that.

That's why he's anticipating you. If anything, he can try to pressure you and poke with F-Tilts like Dededes like to do.

Yoshi Throws Egg, Dedede Jumps up to avoid it, and then throw a Dedede. Yoshi would have already recovered long before it hit's him. Besides, won't the Dee be blocked by the platform which you retreated from?

He shorthops backwards to avoid it, which is not enough to put the Waddle Dee on the platform.

Uh... no. Yoshi is throwing Eggs to get Dedede away from the platform. Since the entire goal of this debate was to get Dedede away from the platform, and since many of your answers resulted as such. I think Yoshi is successful in this debate.

All my answers put Dedede in a position where he can get back underneath without fear of retaliation, and with much chance of punishing Yoshi, but you can think what you please.

Alright, forgot about that. but does his Bair cover 50* above him?

His B-Air covers EVERYTHING. His entire massive body is a killing blow with ridiculous priority.

Look, this is getting stupid. The entire point of this semi-debate was to post on how Yoshi can get Dedede out of the platform for a safe approach. I pretty much proved he can, and now the entire thing is just overkill.

I'm still far from convinced, because I have plenty of argument that you haven't countered. The only thing that was proven by you is that if Dedede throws a Waddle Dee while Yoshi is idle, Yoshi can dash attack it and get fairly close, which is still not foolproof due to Waddle Doos, Gordos, and the fact that you're still not entirely in.

EDIT: I didn't mean to hijack the thread; if you want, I can get back on-topic, although I don't know what else to say as of now. I already got a new signature, and that's good enough for me. <3

 

[Deleted member]

No big tournies for me, i cant drive so i can only go to ones in my county =( I go to 20-60 man tournies here. Not rly major.

 

[Mmac]

Ok, I'm not doing this anymore. It just keeps going on, and on, and on. You keep on changing the situation on every counter. It's like we're playing some sort of game. Reminds me when I used to play Transformers with my friend when I was 8 Years old:

I'm launching Missiles at you!

Then I'm defending myself with my shield.

I use a Ray that designates your shield

Ok.... Then I'll just shoot the missiles out of the sky

They're Bulletproof, you explode.

What?! There's no such thing as Bulletproof Missiles!

Yeah, they have a foot of Bulletproof alloy

A foot eh? Then how would the explosive fit?

It's.... uh, SUPER EXPLOSIVE!

No, that doesn't work. I shoot them, next move?

I use a Nuke!

It will kill us both >_>

I have Radiation Protection

WE'RE USING THE SAME FRIGGEN TYPE OF ROBOT!

Plus we moved on anyways

 

[Deleted member]

I used to do that w/ my friend too xD

 

[Kiwikomix]

I guess I could enter a tourneymant somewhere around here, but I was more occupied with Melee at the last one I attended. I don't really have enough interest in Brawl to go to the big ones...

 

[Shy Guy 86]

I suggest you counterpick Falco for Wolf if you a lot of trouble with him, CG -> Spike works wonders.

DDD and MK work too, but some people don't like to choose MK because he is "Cheap"

 

[Shiri]

Shiri I might go to that tourn next week.. in NY .. YOU need to enter ! We need to bring up Yoshi's placing on the tourney lists..

You mean the one this weekend? o_0

You can come place well if you want. My placings aren't because I play Yoshi, it's because I'm bad. Let me know, I might even be able to house you if the drive is too long for you to come and go in one day.

It would be nice to see someone wreck face with dino boots, though. :D

 

[Mmac]

You mean the one this weekend? o_0

You can come place well if you want. My placings aren't because I play Yoshi, it's because I'm bad. Let me know, I might even be able to house you if the drive is too long for you to come and go in one day.

I can help you train....

I really want to help, and to get involved...

 

[Shiri]

If you want to help me train, get me some stronger mindgames and less fatty fingers, LOL!

I dunno, like...I somehow am managing to pull top eight locally sometimes now, even though I blow at this game. At least I'm consistently first in teams, but that's only because my teammate carries me and I do a hefty amount of counterpicking during teams.

As ironic as this is to ask, can I get a tl;dr on the last like...two pages? All I saw were quote posts and I kinda just...didn't read them. >_>; I don't know why, I just didn't. <_<;

 

[Opfer]

It was a debate about whether Yoshi can force a Dedede camping under a platform to do an approach.

 

[PRiDE]

Shiri how is the scene there? Will it be worth the drive? Because on that same day there is Smashtality in philly, which will bring in a lot more knowns... not sure which one to go to now.

 

[Scala]

Has anyone pulled off the needle egglay footstool trick on a wolf in a real match yet?

And I think you guys should come up to ann arbor for a big midwest tourney this weekend.

 

[SOVAman]

I thought we were talking about Wolf? lol

Curious.. JUST how many Yoshi mains out there actually compete in BIG major tourns? How do you place? I only know of Bwett, myself and Gideon that have attended large tournaments.

I compete in NoVA tournaments and place average around 9th and its not easy against poeple like G-reg, Azen, Chillin, Forte and Neo etc. So don't forget me when you think of Yoshi's that play in big offline tournaments. Also I will see if I can go to Critical Hit 4 And see how I will place..

 

[Shiri]

Shiri how is the scene there? Will it be worth the drive? Because on that same day there is Smashtality in philly, which will bring in a lot more knowns... not sure which one to go to now.

The Buffalo one is getting Canada, Rochester, and some kids from Maryland.

I think it'll be worth the drive, especially because of the huge buy-in. Smashtality will probably get more known players. Buffalo will probably get more good players.

 

[PRiDE]

lilb93 i was at the last CH3 where were you? How come you didnt go to chus final weekly?

 

[SOVAman]

lilb93 i was at the last CH3 where were you? How come you didnt go to chus final weekly?

Family was over during his CH3 and I didn't go to Chu's final biweekly because I was hanging out with my friends. I go to Tope's and Chu's C3s because its close. The C3 is only like 15 minutes from my house so thats where I go. I will try to make it to CH4 but I will see since school is starting in the beginning of September so I am not sure.