Hyrule Rogue *a Sheik guide*

[saviorslegacy]

Hyrule Rogue

This guide is designed for everyone, from the n00b to the pro.
I have decided to create this guide out of the sheer need for a Sheik guide.

Video- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0s3Y3zny9tI


*table of contents*

[collapse=jab]
[collapse=frame data]soon to come[/collapse]

The two types of jab.
There are two different jabs. The first is the jab cancel and the second is the flurry.


Jab Cancel
[collapse=hit bubbles]Jab 1

Jab 2

[/collapse]
The jab cancel is one of Sheiks best tricks.
[collapse=basics]The thing that you want to remember is that this tech is quick and leads into a grab.
At higher percents just remember that it leads into a kill move, Nair.[/collapse]

Here's a list of everything you can cancel into.

• jab cancel> jab
• jab cancel> grab
• jab cancel> d-tilt
• jab cancel> DSmash
• jab cancel> Nair

Jab Flurry
[collapse=hit bubbles]The rapid jabs

[/collapse]
[collapse=basic]While jab cancel is amazing, jab flurry isn't. That does not mean it does not have its uses.
You can use it to punish spot dodges. You can also use it up against a wall or at the ledge facing outward.[/collapse][/collapse]

[collapse=grabs]
Standing Grab
[collapse=hit bubbles]Standing Grab

[/collapse]
[collapse=frame date]coming soon[/collapse]
Standing grab is horrible. Only use it after f-tilt.

Dash Grab
[collapse=hit bubbles]Dash Grab

[/collapse]
[collapse=frame date]coming soon[/collapse]
Dash grab is what you use when to follow up after a jab cancel.

Pivot Grab
[collapse=hit bubbles]Pivot Grab

[/collapse]
[collapse=frame date]coming soon[/collapse]
Pivot grab is by far her best grab. Use it to punish.


The Juggling Gods
Sheiks throws are amazing. While none have direct follow ups, all but 1 is a frame trap.

The Pummel
[collapse=frame date]coming soon[/collapse]
Sheik pummels slow but it does 3%. The key to keep in mind is over 30%, 1 pummel, over 50% 2 pummels, over 70% 3 pummels and over 100% 4 pummels.

Down Throw
[collapse=frame date]coming soon[/collapse]
Down Throws primary use is juggling. It almost true combos into Uair, but they can air dodge or DI away to get out of it. This is where the guessing game comes into play. You can tell if they are going to DI away on reaction. At this point just run forward and counter anything they do. If they do not DI at all you can either perform an empty short hop or attempt to follow up with Uair.
It is a guessing game, but it is low risk.

Forward Throw
[collapse=frame data]coming soon[/collapse]
Forward Throws primary use is juggling. It is not as good as Down Throw, but it still works as a mix up to your juggling game to prevent Down Throw from getting to stale.

Back Throw
[collapse=frame data]coming soon[/collapse]
Back Throw is not one of Sheik juggling tools, but a kill tool. At the ledge most people will DI in when Sheik Back Throws them. When they do this jump up and hit them with strong Bair.

Up Throw
[collapse=frame data]coming soon[/collapse]
Up Throw is horrible! Never use it![/collapse]

[collapse=f-tilt]
The Hug From Jesus
[collapse=frame data]soon to come[/collapse]
[collapse=hit bubbles]
Forward Tilt low

Forward Tilt medium

Forward Tilt high

[/collapse]
F-tilt is by far one of Sheiks best moves. Most combos revolve around it and it single handedly turns some match ups from what could be even into giving Sheik the advantage.

[collapse=basics]The thing that you want to remember with f-tilt is that it is easily shield grabbed. That is why it is best for it to be in the center of your combos or use it to punish someone. For example, Fair> f-tilt is a true combo if fast falled.
Another thing thing to remember is that you usually don't want to attempt an f-tilt lock if the foe is under 30%.[/collapse]

[collapse=pro]

You can thank Tristan_Win for the above.
His thread can be found here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=175241

You can also f-tilt> USmash on a platform and kill early with it.


*How to read the charts*
Lets say that you want to USmash tipper MK and kill him. Well normally you would have to get him to about 90% and then KO him. Now lets say you were standing on the side platform on Battlefield. 15 - 90 = 75
MK can be KO'd on the side platform at 75%. Now lets say you were on the top platform. 30 - 90 = 60
You can now KO him at 60%.
Battlefield

Smashville

Yoshi's Island

Delfino Plaza

Pokemon Stadium 1

Halberd

Castle Siege

Green Greens

Rainbow Cruise

Lylat Cruise

Brinstar

Norfair

[/collapse][/collapse]

[collapse=d-tilt]
Crouch and hit
[collapse=hit bubbles]Down Tilt 1

Down Tilt 2

Down Tilt 3

[/collapse]
[collapse=frame data]coming soon[/collapse]

[collapse=basics]Down tilt is another juggling option.[/collapse]

[collapse=pro]Down tilt may seem useless at first glance but it has it's uses. It's best use is as an anti aerial. Lets say Kirby jumps towards you and uses Fair. Whip out d-tilt and at worst you will trade hits.[/collapse][/collapse]

[collapse=u-tilt]
The second best tilt
[collapse=hit bubbles]Up Tilt first hit

Up Tilt second hit 1

Up Tilt second hit 2

Up Tilt second hit 3

Up Tilt second hit 4

[/collapse]
[collapse=frame data]coming soon[/collapse]
Up tilt is by far Sheiks second best tilt.

[collapse=basics]U-tilt is Sheiks best f-tilt finisher. It does more damage that any other tilt and it sets up for a juggle.
Another great thing about u-tilt is that at low percents it can lead into a grab or DA.[/collapse]

[collapse=pro]U-tilt is a great anti aerial and probably has more range than any of her other moves minus specials. Use it to punish poor spacing above you.[/collapse][/collapse]


I'll finish this later. I am sick right now and don't feel like working on this anymore. The video was a big enough pain in the ***.

 

[Judo777]

I am jacking that picture its tight as hell.

 

[KenniSpam!]

Wait, Sheik is in Brawl?

 

[Judo777]

Wait, Sheik is in Brawl?

Oooh kenni ur so funny................

 

[saviorslegacy]

I am jacking that picture its tight as hell.

Haha, On facebook they are having all of these crazy things like change your profile to your favorite cartoon character, yada yada yada. Well, I got invited to change your profile picture to your favorite video game character. This is my current pic. lol

 

[saviorslegacy]

*cricket chirps*
Do you guys like or dislike this guide style. While it does seem less friendly it is way more organized.

Just give me your opinions on my guide in progress.

 

[Crossjeremiah]

honestly.... idk what to think of it. theres plenty of guides that explain this pretty well.. the whole foward throw not being as good as down throw is trash... Forward throw is always better than all the throws but i know i know, mix it up. Forward throw can lead to tech chases, and various other options. It's always the better choice. I like the idea of importing Tristan wins ftilt data. All in all i dont really like this guide.. plus sheik boards are dead with me and light gone. but i'm making a come back here soon

 

[saviorslegacy]

honestly.... idk what to think of it. theres plenty of guides that explain this pretty well.. the whole foward throw not being as good as down throw is trash... Forward throw is always better than all the throws but i know i know, mix it up. Forward throw can lead to tech chases, and various other options. It's always the better choice. I like the idea of importing Tristan wins ftilt data. All in all i dont really like this guide.. plus sheik boards are dead with me and light gone. but i'm making a come back here soon

I actually think that f-throw is trash. Now that people have caught onto my juggling game they DI away hard when I f-throw. It makes it really hard to follow up. The only advantage I see is 1%......

I plan on compiling everything into here. Everyone that I steal data from will receive credit where credit is due.
I am just afraid of it being to big, that is why I started the compressing thing. But I think I should only compress things like GR stuff, Tristan's data and the like.

I honestly don't think light has anything to do with it. It is more or less.... no Tristan, no n00bs and few mains period. If we got a bunch of n00bs in here that would help things tremendously.
The only way to get n00bs is to do well with her at a tourney or have an amazing combo video. Either way, there are no Sheik idles.

 

[Zankoku]

I'm waiting for the part where you actually give good explanations for saying things like "standing grab is horrible."

 

[saviorslegacy]

I'm waiting for the part where you actually give good explanations for saying things like "standing grab is horrible."

Because its range sucks so bad. I never use standing grab unless it is a follow up like f-tilt.
The only other time it is good is as a shield grab.... but that is logical.

My question is... do you think it is good? And if you do, why?

 

[Zankoku]

Less startup, less cooldown, doesn't require you to be running?

 

[Crossjeremiah]

wow im not even going to bother with arguing or explaining this reasoning. because obviously you don't know how to play sheik correctly in a professional environment. you constantly try to discover things and name it after stupid things i applaud you on your enthusiasm but if they are not viable don't bother. yes yes i do mix up down throws in my grab line up. but fthrow and bthrow are so much more viable, ask any good sheik and they will tell you. I REPEAT FTHROWS AND BTHROWS LEADS TO TECH CHASES and USMASH MINDGAMES. but you obviously don't know how to tech chase. don't bother replying to this post. just putting this out there.

 

[Zankoku]

How do you tech chase from your throws when all of Sheik's throws send the opponent upward and you need to hit a ground/wall/ceiling to tech?

 

[Crossjeremiah]

i fthrow my opponent and tech chase. with bairs and fairs. it seems to work in matches anyways.

im talking about tech chasing as in with aerials. thats the definition i know. like follow ups with 2 aerials in a row. or w/e

 

[-Cross-]

^That's not called tech chasing lol. It is a frame trap though.

Also saviors I'm pretty sure that even if they DI away you can still get a fair on them/force an airdodge. It's still a good position for Sheik, but it requires that you act immediately out of your fthrow.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Less startup, less cooldown, doesn't require you to be running?

Start up does not matter with a throw. Doesn't require running???? WTF?

wow im not even going to bother with arguing or explaining this reasoning. because obviously you don't know how to play sheik correctly in a professional environment. you constantly try to discover things and name it after stupid things i applaud you on your enthusiasm but if they are not viable don't bother. yes yes i do mix up down throws in my grab line up. but fthrow and bthrow are so much more viable, ask any good sheik and they will tell you. I REPEAT FTHROWS AND BTHROWS LEADS TO TECH CHASES and USMASH MINDGAMES. but you obviously don't know how to tech chase. don't bother replying to this post. just putting this out there.

Dude **** you. **** you **** you **** you
What have you ever done to try and progress this character. I have tried and look over every single thing I can possibly look over to try and make her better. If I challenge something that most people say is concrete I am doing it for a reason. F-Throw is not her best throw I am telling you. Katakiri has it figured out. Simply DI back and jump out of it. The more air speed the foe has the worst this is for Sheik.
I agree that B-Throw is amazing... I have even started using it to kill at low percents at the ledge. People usually DI in at the ledge and you can string two Bairs together. At kill percents B-Throw can lead into strong Bair.

*n00b ending
You know, more **** would get done around here, like important **** if everyone would just HELP!
I have a stage thread that needs finished, options out of f-tilt that needs finished and I would have tried to do a community guide but I knew if I did nothing would ever get done because people simply aren't willing to help. They are willing to ***** though. *****ing is easy.
Sorry if that sounds like a blanket statement. I like pretty much all of you.

^That's not called tech chasing lol. It is a frame trap though.

Also saviors I'm pretty sure that even if they DI away you can still get a fair on them/force an airdodge. It's still a good position for Sheik, but it requires that you act immediately out of your fthrow.

I think you can hit them with Fair at low percents if they don't DI away.
If you hold the analog away from Sheik and F-Throw them they will travel almost half of FD at 0%.
If you B-Throw them at 0% and they DI away they will travel half of FD.
If you D-Throw them and they DI away they will travel 2/3 of FD. Even if they DI away you can still connect with Fair or a Bair reverse aerial rush style. This is if they don't air dodge or attack.

With all other throws besides D-Throw they can simple DI back and jump. Sheiks only option with F-Throw is to maybe get them with DA. If they jump however you can't even land that. Now all they have to deal with is Sheik being under them. They can also air dodge straight down and punish DA.

I done a **** load of testing on throws because I thought I could find some amazing combo with it. Bottom line is... if they know Sheiks throws D-Throw is you best option. If they don't then maybe F-Throw.

If you don't believe me I can make a video showing how much better D-Throw is compared to the others.

tl;dr
D-Throw is the best because if they do not DI away they are forced to air dodge or they will get hit by Uair. If they DI back they will get hit by Bair. If they DI away you can put pressure on them with Fair but they can now attack you. It is now a guessing game.

*tested with Marths Dolphin Slash to see if it is a legit combo

 

[Judo777]

yea just saying. Crossjerm is right on this one fthrow and bthrow are really where its at. Fthrow is ur staple throw cause it leads into everything. You can aerial them or if they airdodge its a free usmash alot of times. Bthrow is for mixing up so they cant always DI one way and also threatening with bair because (although im not sure if it true combos into bair or not) it hits alot and when it doesn't you can bait airdodges and punish with either an usmash or just a bair lol.

Fthrow, Bthrow = all you need. I used to dthrow but its way to DIable IMO and i feel like the frame advantage is worse (definitely not any better) and yea fthrow does more damage.

Other than that um idk what to think either. Ill watch again eventually

 

[Zankoku]

How does startup not matter on a grab? If they follow up with something too quick for your running grab to connect beforehand (and that's including the initial running frames) then it's a very valid advantage to perform a non-running grab.

 

[saviorslegacy]

How does startup not matter on a grab? If they follow up with something too quick for your running grab to connect beforehand (and that's including the initial running frames) then it's a very valid advantage to perform a non-running grab.

If Falco's d-throw had 160 frames of start up would it be worse than what it is?

Wouldn't that be like a shield grab?

 

[Zankoku]

Grab, not throw. And yes, it would. Link could pull a bomb and avoid ever getting chaingrabbed just by waiting. However, that's not relevant because throw time is dependent on the opposing character's weight, not how you grabbed him.

 

[phi1ny3]

not to mention standing grab is the only one that can be performed oos directly, which is a boon considering that sheik's dash -> shield's pretty good.

pivot grab and boost grab are legit though.

 

[Judo777]

not to mention standing grab is the only one that can be performed oos directly, which is a boon considering that sheik's dash -> shield's pretty good.

pivot grab and boost grab are legit though.

Actually i don't know how known it is but i recently learned that you can do a shield dash grab and a shield pivot grab. Pretty neat huh?

Also guys back off saviours a little bit. He is right on one thing. He is (for the most part) one of the few of us that actually posts on frequent finds in here (whether important or useless). He is just trying to learn stuff and tbh i find the method of him finding stuff and then us telling him how good it is to actually be an enlightening process. I have actually put quite a few of the things saviours has found into my game. And saviours understand when i seem like i shoot ur ideas down that i am simply trying to find a place where we can agree on its actual worth. Some of ur finds have been useful, others not and I appreciate how hard you try.

However I do have to stand by my point fthrow is really where its at. Every option out of fthrow can be punished for the most part. If Katakiri is DIing away and jumping do one of 2 things. Just run under him and uair which you should have more than enough time, if he jumps AND airdodges just wait out the airdodge and double jump punish. Sheik is way too fast vertically to be escaped by a jump. The reason fthrow is good is because it has all of the same followup options as dthrow, onlyt it does more damage, pretty sure it has more frame advantage, and if they airdodge usmash is free.

 

[Crossjeremiah]

or you can just powershield everything and nair,grab,bair,fair. and keep reading there moves thats a way to win

 

[Zankoku]

I dunno why you're asking me to back off, he was stating standing grab to be garbage as a solid point in what's supposed to be a guide, not an opinion or discovery, and I wanted to know why.

 

[-Cross-]

*tested with Marths Dolphin Slash to see if it is a legit combo

Just for future reference, Marth's DS is not a good way to check if it's a legit combo because specials (in general) take longer to come out than air dodge or aerial if the opponent is sent into tumble. If they aren't in tumble than it's legit way to test, but iirc all of Sheik's throws put opponent's into tumble from 0%.

Also, I'll be active more once I know where I'm going to college, because then I will have the luxury to play my wii all day. Got priorities, y'know.

Edit: I agree with Ankoku though that you shouldn't put standing grab is garbage, especially in a guide. A guide shouldn't force an opinion on the people reading but should merely state the facts. And if you are going to put in opinions, it should be stuff that most people accept as true. All you have to do instead is just say, for example, "standing grab range is mediocre at best" etc

 

[Judo777]

i was more referring to cross but alrighty

 

[phi1ny3]

Actually i don't know how known it is but i recently learned that you can do a shield dash grab and a shield pivot grab. Pretty neat huh?

Also guys back off saviours a little bit. He is right on one thing. He is (for the most part) one of the few of us that actually posts on frequent finds in here (whether important or useless). He is just trying to learn stuff and tbh i find the method of him finding stuff and then us telling him how good it is to actually be an enlightening process. I have actually put quite a few of the things saviours has found into my game. And saviours understand when i seem like i shoot ur ideas down that i am simply trying to find a place where we can agree on its actual worth. Some of ur finds have been useful, others not and I appreciate how hard you try.

However I do have to stand by my point fthrow is really where its at. Every option out of fthrow can be punished for the most part. If Katakiri is DIing away and jumping do one of 2 things. Just run under him and uair which you should have more than enough time, if he jumps AND airdodges just wait out the airdodge and double jump punish. Sheik is way too fast vertically to be escaped by a jump. The reason fthrow is good is because it has all of the same followup options as dthrow, onlyt it does more damage, pretty sure it has more frame advantage, and if they airdodge usmash is free.

I knew the pivot shield grab, but a dash shield grab? You mean as in one that turns into a dash grab oos?

 

[-Cross-]

i was more referring to cross but alrighty

You mean jeremiah right? Damn it all, why does my name have to be so generic >_<

I knew the pivot shield grab, but a dash shield grab? You mean as in one that turns into a dash grab oos?

Time to show some awesome old thread reviving skills. Here's the thread from tactical about it
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=215653&highlight=Gonzo

The video is kind of low quality, so you barely see the shield flashing but it does.
The earliest best example is at 1:00:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BxjoDZUjiA#t=1m

 

[saviorslegacy]

I dunno why you're asking me to back off, he was stating standing grab to be garbage as a solid point in what's supposed to be a guide, not an opinion or discovery, and I wanted to know why.

I was actually referring to standing there and trying to grab someone. It use to be a bad habit of mine to try and grab when someone was getting close to me.
As I said though, standing grab is useful if you shield first or if used as a follow up. I honestly do see one use rather than those two.

Just for future reference, Marth's DS is not a good way to check if it's a legit combo because specials (in general) take longer to come out than air dodge or aerial if the opponent is sent into tumble. If they aren't in tumble than it's legit way to test, but iirc all of Sheik's throws put opponent's into tumble from 0%.

Also, I'll be active more once I know where I'm going to college, because then I will have the luxury to play my wii all day. Got priorities, y'know.

Edit: I agree with Ankoku though that you shouldn't put standing grab is garbage, especially in a guide. A guide shouldn't force an opinion on the people reading but should merely state the facts. And if you are going to put in opinions, it should be stuff that most people accept as true. All you have to do instead is just say, for example, "standing grab range is mediocre at best" etc

Actually last time I checked you can air dodge out of hit stun. That is why the training mode combo reader thingy is broken... among other reasons. if you want to find if they can attack out of hit stun you do it against Marth or Bowser and have them try and up B. If they do not DI away D-Throw can be followed up by Uair and if they do not air dodge they will get hit. Making it a frame trap.
I done some more testing though and F-Throw does not increase in knock back as much as D-Throw. This makes F-Throw a better option at higher percents.
Just my opinion.

You're right. If you guys would be willing to critique as I write then the guide would not be so one sided.

You mean jeremiah right? Damn it all, why does my name have to be so generic >_<

Yeah I actually thought you were him at first.
But I doubt you have an awesome scarf.
*I heard some where that Jeremiah wears a cool scarf to tournies

 

[Zankoku]

It use to be a bad habit of mine to try and grab when someone was getting close to me.

Well, you might enjoy catching death, but I somehow doubt most people would even consider standing there and attempting to grab someone out of flying at you with a hitbox as an option. And saying "it's useful if you shield first" is ambiguous, seeing as how shielding is one of the most reliable ways to stop running abruptly. At what point would you consider one a better choice than the other, given you can do both?

 

[saviorslegacy]

Well, you might enjoy catching death, but I somehow doubt most people would even consider standing there and attempting to grab someone out of flying at you with a hitbox as an option. And saying "it's useful if you shield first" is ambiguous, seeing as how shielding is one of the most reliable ways to stop running abruptly. At what point would you consider one a better choice than the other, given you can do both?

If you can shield the opponent I either jump> Nair or simple hit A.
Would you say that standing still trying to grab the foe is a good idea?
Standing grab is only good when there are other things to back it up. Shield and f-tilt make it useful. IMO, it is not useful by itself. If you can prove me wrong then that's great.









Proof that F-Throw is worse than D-Throw:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb77GKpW2fc

ps If you want me to I will make a video showing how D-Throw is better. Actually.... that's not a bad idea anyways.

 

[-Mars-]

CrossJeremiah wtf are you talking about the boards are dead because you and Light don't post here very much?? You and Light almost NEVER posted anyways lmao.

Boards aren't dead anyways actually the most active they've been all year just finals are taking place and holidays etc.

 

[-Mars-]

Also, fthrow is ****. If they DI away and jump or whatever you can just run a little farther and then double jump uair most of the time. No throws of Sheiks true combo anyways so why are people arguing about this?

Fthrow creates too many frame traps to be worse than dthrow.

 

[Zankoku]

saviors, I could make an identical video and label it "proof that uthrow is worse than bthrow." There isn't a single throw Sheik can do that actually gives a legitimate follow-up.

I think the problem here is that you're looking at everything in a very literal, non-situational sense. Standing grabs can only be done while standing, shielding means you're blocking an attack from the opponent, and fthrows suck because you can't follow up on neutral DI from a CPU? None of this actually feels like real-world situational analysis, which I find odd because I could've sworn you've played in a tournament now and gotten to interact with human beings in the game. Do you see them only use running grabs because you have to stand to do a standing grab, only shield to block one of your attacks, and only use a single throw because it's definitely better than all the other throws?

If you continue your guide, please don't discuss every single option as though it were in a vacuum. Sheik's moveset is one full of situational uses, so trying to classify each one on its own without looking at all the possibilities is one of the worst things you can do when writing a guide.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Boards aren't dead anyways actually the most active they've been all year just finals are taking place and holidays etc.

My finals were last week.

saviors, I could make an identical video and label it "proof that uthrow is worse than bthrow." There isn't a single throw Sheik can do that actually gives a legitimate follow-up.

I think the problem here is that you're looking at everything in a very literal, non-situational sense. Standing grabs can only be done while standing, shielding means you're blocking an attack from the opponent, and fthrows suck because you can't follow up on neutral DI from a CPU? None of this actually feels like real-world situational analysis, which I find odd because I could've sworn you've played in a tournament now and gotten to interact with human beings in the game. Do you see them only use running grabs because you have to stand to do a standing grab, only shield to block one of your attacks, and only use a single throw because it's definitely better than all the other throws?

If you continue your guide, please don't discuss every single option as though it were in a vacuum. Sheik's moveset is one full of situational uses, so trying to classify each one on its own without looking at all the possibilities is one of the worst things you can do when writing a guide.

Obviously, U-Throw is trash except for one instance. You can use U-Throw to put the foe on the top platform at BF and then follow up with Uair which could lead into a f-tilt lock on the top platform.
B-Throw is only useful when they DI wrong.
F-Throw can combo into Fair but the slightest bit of DI will mess it up. Same as D-Throw though, they can air dodge out of it.

I try and keep everything simple in my mind when playing so I can watch the foe more. If the foe has no idea how to fight Sheik I take liberties. This includes attacking EVERYTIME out of F-Throw. They will learn that they can simply air dodge. lol, most of the time they even stop DIing and just air dodge. They will become use to air dodging and when KO percents arise.... I USmash tipper them out of their air dodge.
When they know how to fight Sheik though, I use D-Throw. D-Throw is better at low percents than F-Throw because they don't go as far away and it almost combos (minus air dodging) into Bair even if they are DIing away.
And yes, I am looking at everything in a very non situational sense because you can't rely on situations. When they do happen I try to be ready to punish to the best of my ability, but I can't always plan on them happening.
Same reason why I am constantly watching for them to hit the floor.


Actually I play people IRL often. I am taking about 5 locals to a tourney this weekend that Judo might also be attending.

*noted
I want to list the basics and the more pro level thinking and uses on each move. That way this guide can help both the wi-fi n00b and tournament goer.

 

[-Cross-]

Actually last time I checked you can air dodge out of hit stun. That is why the training mode combo reader thingy is broken... among other reasons. if you want to find if they can attack out of hit stun you do it against Marth or Bowser and have them try and up B. If they do not DI away D-Throw can be followed up by Uair and if they do not air dodge they will get hit. Making it a frame trap.
I done some more testing though and F-Throw does not increase in knock back as much as D-Throw. This makes F-Throw a better option at higher percents.
Just my opinion.

This isn't an issue of air dodging out of hitstun >_>

There are two types of states an opponent can be in when they get hit by an attack, they are either in tumble (characters that can't be CG'd by D3 when D3 d-throw's them) or they are not (the state that characters who can be CG'd by D3 are in when D3 d-throw's them). When characters are not in tumble, they are in set knockback, so specials, jumps, attacks, air dodge, etc all come out on the same frame out of hitstun. When you are in tumble though, there is a specific order in which options can come out the earliest out of hitstun, air dodge and aerials being the first two, and specials and jump being the later options.

Since all of Sheik's throws send opponent's into tumble at any %, Marth's fastest option in this case is not upB but air dodge or dair. I'm pretty sure at low%'s Marth's dair comes out faster than you can SH uair if you d-throw him. I hope you keep this in mind, because you test out a lot of things, and I don't want you to be wasting your time just because you weren't testing the right options out.

I also wish I had a cool scarf

 

[Zankoku]

I will discuss more later, but for now I'm going to say that trying to look at everything without accounting for situationals in a game that is primarily about two players with roughly equal options trying to beat each other just isn't going to work out.

 

[phi1ny3]

This isn't an issue of air dodging out of hitstun >_>

There are two types of states an opponent can be in when they get hit by an attack, they are either in tumble (characters that can't be CG'd by D3 when D3 d-throw's them) or they are not (the state that characters who can be CG'd by D3 are in when D3 d-throw's them). When characters are not in tumble, they are in set knockback, so specials, jumps, attacks, air dodge, etc all come out on the same frame out of hitstun. When you are in tumble though, there is a specific order in which options can come out the earliest out of hitstun, air dodge and aerials being the first two, and specials and jump being the later options.

Since all of Sheik's throws send opponent's into tumble at any %, Marth's fastest option in this case is not upB but air dodge or dair. I'm pretty sure at low%'s Marth's dair comes out faster than you can SH uair if you d-throw him. I hope you keep this in mind, because you test out a lot of things, and I don't want you to be wasting your time just because you weren't testing the right options out.

I also wish I had a cool scarf

Doesn't jump also come out as one of the fastest options?

You mean jeremiah right? Damn it all, why does my name have to be so generic >_<



Time to show some awesome old thread reviving skills. Here's the thread from tactical about it
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=215653&highlight=Gonzo

The video is kind of low quality, so you barely see the shield flashing but it does.
The earliest best example is at 1:00:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BxjoDZUjiA#t=1m

huh, interesting. If dash didn't limit so many options, this would be able to replace shieldgrab + other things in a lot of situations. Cool :D

I think you can also use Cstick to replace A for doing this, correct? This makes it also easier to do pivot shield grab.

 

[Zankoku]

No, because air-dodge comes out as soon as 13 frames after you're sent into tumble. For a more recognizable example of this, Falco is able to start an air-dodge after getting down-thrown by Sheik before Sheik completes her down-throw animation.

 

[saviorslegacy]

No, because air-dodge comes out as soon as 13 frames after you're sent into tumble. For a more recognizable example of this, Falco is able to start an air-dodge after getting down-thrown by Sheik before Sheik completes her down-throw animation.

He can also air dodge before Sheik finishes her F-Throw animation or right when she finishes... I can't tell exactly by eye balling it.