Hydroplaning: A Gimmick or an actual necessity to Squirtle??

[CoonTail]

So I've wanted to take time to sit down and write this thread for a while. I have constantly heard that we have a gimmick character and one of the largest reasons is squirtle's ability to hydroplane or in other words wave dash. I would understand this being considered a gimmick if essentially this was Squirtle's only way of DACUS'ing figuring he does not have one. But since this movement trick allows us to do ANY attack while hydroplaning this changes the story entirely. To add onto that since we can also control the total length we travel while hydroplaning we now essentially have one of the best ground movement capabilities out of cast. This all only applies to forward motion so the argument for this being gimmicky still exists thus requiring a final touch to hydroplaning to consider it not gimmicky.

THE REVERSE SHIFT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4J0nuc-FtwM&feature=iv&annotation_id=annotation_457030

At 0:49 you will see exactly what a reverse shift is and my argument against Squirtle's movement being gimmicky starts right here, but firstly I'd like to apologize for the kinda crappy video but it overall seems there are very few videos to find of reverse shifting

The utility of the reverse shift is utilized by almost no PT main's and this has really began to bug me. Are we starting to believe that this movement is just gimmicky and silly?, or that it does not have real applications in competitive smash? The most recent tournament I went to I played against quite a few bigger eastern names and I have received a large amount of praise here in the atlantic north for being one of the most interesting and "Flashy" (a term that Im not overly thrilled with) squirtle. Through constant use and mix ups of hydroplaning and reverse shifting my opponents have struggled to get in on my squirtle along with properly read me as I approach. Through constant use of hydroplaning and reverse shifting the mind-games that my opponents have dealt with seems to infuriate them. Through heavy use of hydroplaning every time I shell shift they expect hydroplaning.....so when I have an opponent locked on the edge and I chose to reverse shift away from the edge they read it as a hydroplane and attempt to respond (baiting players into options they did not have to take) which will result in me getting a free grab or punish. Mixing this in on stage when I tend to be heavy on hydro grabs and hydro jabs a reverse shift is a perfect mix in because yet again the options players know can beat the hydroplane are not the same options that beat a reverse shift.

Outside of Luis who has just done outstanding work with Squirtle with minimal use of hydroplaning and shell shifting....the players I would have had to give credit to for pushing me to use this more is Magik and Kith. Some of you PT's Im sure remember them, some of you newer PT's I doubt know them but there were some big tricks Kith and Magik seemed to bring to light to our PT community through hydroplaning

MAGIK
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnwkWelOXSY <- Those are hydrogimps or hydrograbs to footstools after the momentum from the slide caused squirtle to fall through the ledge upon grab release.

KITH
http://www.youtube.com/user/Kith000#p/u/11/m9vzwNWUZWA <- Hydroplaning after a shell stall allowing for even more mind games

I just don't see any other PT player go in depth with hydroplaning and reverse shifting like Magik, Kith, or I did and I think there is an enormous amount of potential in this for squirtle's metagame. In matchups where the grab release is a horror this gives us faster options to approach characters along with lessening chances of grabs due to switch ups. I am just finding through the lack of use of our AT's with squirtle and even just shell-shifting and shell-stalling alone we seem to be undercutting our character and not exploring full potential. I want to prove this is not a gimmick and see more PT players put this into full effect. I am not trying to push a fully mind-game based Squirtle but instead show you how many options leave room for mind-games of your own and thus create player advantage.

So ok PT boards lets hear your thoughts on my essay that was 6 months in the making.

 

[Geenareeno]

AMAZING!!!

I totally agree with your Squirtle playstyle and i'm going to try to learn to play an extremely technical Squirtle. Really nice find too. There are so many options and mix ups out of "shell dancing" that you can just do it and react or put yourself in a good position. Way to put work in and try to improve the pt meta game.

 

[CoonTail]

AMAZING!!!

I totally agree with your Squirtle playstyle and i'm going to try to learn to play an extremely technical Squirtle. Really nice find too. There are so many options and mix ups out of "shell dancing" that you can just do it and react or put yourself in a good position. Way to put work in and try to improve the pt meta game.

Yea man I am deff trying and I'm glad to see I actually got some positive response this time....I beginning to really like this new gen of PT mains our boards have

 

[T-block]

I certainly wouldn't call shellshifting/hydroplaning gimmicky. Gimmick usually implies that it relies on the element of surprise, but I find these techniques to still have their place even when my opponent is fully aware of their existance. I myself use shellshifting, true hydroplane (usually into f-tilt or u-tilt) and forward hydroplane u-smashes in my game quite regularly. Let me put it another way - I think you are definitely missing out on something if you are not using these techniques as Squirtle, so I wouldn't label these as gimmicks.

I like your focus on the Reverse Shift though... I could definitely see that being used more.

 

[CoonTail]

We'll I'm glad you agree T-Block I mean I just never see enough of this in any videos and I use A LOT of shell shifting, stalling, hydroplaning and forward hydroplaning along with reverse shifting.

I know your well aware of this and my bad for not labeling you as one of the 4 PT mains left after the PR thread you just made it seem like you weren't a PT anymore.

But yea this is for all the new PTs who don't use/ know this already. We got a new generation of PT starting since most of the elder PTs left besides us mata and luis, So I really wanna change the ways of this PT boards into a much more effective helpful board not just social activity which is the majority of our activity

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I can't believe what I'm seeing.

Activity in the PT boards.

 

[CoonTail]

I can't believe what I'm seeing.

Activity in the PT boards.

Yea supreme I'm trying to bring it back because at this point Im really starting to get somewhere in brawl, and I've been on these boards for a while and always wanted more from them. So now I really want to start seeing if we can see who are young PT mains are that creep around these boards lol and draw them out into the crowd.

I want this place to be a much larger source of knowledge and a lot less of the click it had been that unfortunatly pushed newer PT's out of these forums because they never got any aid.

 

[Aposl]

I agree plan on mastering this character by the end of the year,starting with the basics though.

 

[Bomber7]

I can't help but feel I've seen or heard about this before....

Edit: INERTIA FAIL

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Id love to see some of your matches, ****.

 

[Ingoro]

So I've read over this again, and I do implent hydroplanning into my game but I've never managed to fully incooperate reverse shift, now that combined with jabs and other stuff, is definitly getting more of my attention over the next days.

 

[Bomber7]

Unfortunately for me, hydroplaning has been situational for me in the past and even still it was blocked easily. Plus it's not like an effective fighting style can be dedicated to using hydroplaning because it can be read easily. However, learning how to use it effectively definitely will have its benefits. Though I want to think that when people think of squirtle, they think of squirtle hydro-spamming everything so they will be on guard about it. It's just a little thought.

 

[Geenareeno]

Plus it's not like an effective fighting style can be dedicated to using hydroplaning because it can be read easily.

Aha! This is what I want to see proven wrong.

 

[CoonTail]

Unfortunately for me, hydroplaning has been situational for me in the past and even still it was blocked easily. Plus it's not like an effective fighting style can be dedicated to using hydroplaning because it can be read easily. However, learning how to use it effectively definitely will have its benefits. Though I want to think that when people think of squirtle, they think of squirtle hydro-spamming everything so they will be on guard about it. It's just a little thought.

Well bomber....before I say anything I wanna say its awesome seeing you come back. Also I am very sorry to hear about the hell you had to go through. When I was 15 my dad ended up getting real sick and passed so I dont know if I can say I relate but I deffinitly understand your pain. I really am glad to see you back here and along with my condolences I really hope your still holding you head high.

Now back to the thread......Bomber I understand hydroplaning has been situational and thus was the whole reason why I wanted to explain what may have made hydroplanning seem like a gimmick. But this is where my emphasis on reverse shifting came in. Like I wrote in my article in order for this AT to not be gimmicky reverse shifts are necesary. The amount of mixups that can be brought about from this along with your opponents constantly tip-toeing around because of there own uncertainty, this becomes a very effective way to maintain your own control of the game.

My whole point of this thread was to explain what we need to do to further our character....and by managing to recreate our ground game and slowly break down how well an opponent can really read your hydroplaning or reverse shifting is a large margin for improvement. I think if we all made a leap to really implenent this into our games could not only improve our PT's but also really improve matchups where squirtles keep away is a must.

 

[Ingoro]

Like you mentioned before, I think the key to make this an effective At is to combine a normal hydroplane with a hydrostall and a reverse shift. Imagine the control it gives you when you fully master the moves and can apply them effectively, a normal hydroplane becomes predictable and people will see it coming, I'm experiencing this myself now that the people I play often learn the patterns of hydroplane moves, one of them being a snake and the other a marth player, I need to adjust to keep up.

 

[Bomber7]

Well bomber....before I say anything I wanna say its awesome seeing you come back. Also I am very sorry to hear about the hell you had to go through. When I was 15 my dad ended up getting real sick and passed so I dont know if I can say I relate but I deffinitly understand your pain. I really am glad to see you back here and along with my condolences I really hope your still holding you head high.

Now back to the thread......Bomber I understand hydroplaning has been situational and thus was the whole reason why I wanted to explain what may have made hydroplanning seem like a gimmick. But this is where my emphasis on reverse shifting came in. Like I wrote in my article in order for this AT to not be gimmicky reverse shifts are necesary. The amount of mixups that can be brought about from this along with your opponents constantly tip-toeing around because of there own uncertainty, this becomes a very effective way to maintain your own control of the game.

My whole point of this thread was to explain what we need to do to further our character....and by managing to recreate our ground game and slowly break down how well an opponent can really read your hydroplaning or reverse shifting is a large margin for improvement. I think if we all made a leap to really implenent this into our games could not only improve our PT's but also really improve matchups where squirtles keep away is a must.

Your thread title is misleading. XP

Comments for the two bolded statements above:
1) I think the reverse shift is awesome, it shouldn't be spammed of course but will totally throw people off. But my main point I want to emphasize is what will be do after we reverse shift? Can we immediately follow up with a punisher?

2) One thing I can add to the break down of how people read our hydroplaning is like I said earlier. When people think of squirtle, they think of hydroplaning because it IS a threat to them in a game. Those who do their homework will know how we perform it and then in a match look for signs that we are about to hydroplane and find a way to block it and counter it.

I personally believe we are going to have to pick our game up to make it more about deception.

 

[CoonTail]

Well bomber answer your questions....

1). After reverse shifts it acts just like a hydroplane as far as move limitation goes....you have close to no lag out of it so any move is possible. So in short you should be able to follow up with a punisher easy.

2). The big problem for people who even do their HW is that there is no blantant sign that your gonna reverse shift. You take the same steps to perform it that you would for a hydroplane, so because of this it means thats mixups are even easier because the player has to basically guess.

You are right deception will be what we are going for here but the major thing is that people cannot distinguish between a hydroplane or reverse shift while we are in the shell shift animation so those players are the ones at disadvantage.

 

[CoonTail]

Id love to see some of your matches, ****.

Sorry man I didn't see this post until now but yea man I'm trying to get some uploaded asap. I love your pic tho Jin is the man and champloo is my FAV anime.

But yes I will get vids up asap.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Sorry man I didn't see this post until now but yea man I'm trying to get some uploaded asap. I love your pic tho Jin is the man and champloo is my FAV anime.

But yes I will get vids up asap.

Mad respect!

Thanks man. Your name gets censored, what da fuuuuk lol

 

[T-block]

I know, it's hella annoying lol.

If I ever get quoted people are gonna think I'm calling you Ice Poop or something.

 

[CoonTail]

Hahaha yea I know guys it's ridiculous thats why Im trying to become a premium member so I can change my name to my real gamertag CoonTail. I've been waiting to do this for ages.

And ramses I liked mugen a lot more than jin tho so sorry if I let ya down

 

[Geenareeno]

1) I think the reverse shift is awesome, it shouldn't be spammed of course but will totally throw people off. But my main point I want to emphasize is what will be do after we reverse shift? Can we immediately follow up with a punisher?

The problem with Hydroplaning right now is that the opponent can just hit you as you come in but if you space the shellshift right maybe you can bait a Marth F smash (he woukd have to be bad to do this, but still) and then punish with a grab because reverse shift leaves you open to movement as soon as you come out of the shell.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Hahaha yea I know guys it's ridiculous thats why Im trying to become a premium member so I can change my name to my real gamertag CoonTail. I've been waiting to do this for ages.

And ramses I liked mugen a lot more than jin tho so sorry if I let ya down

No problem man respect SamuraiChamploo is mad legit

 

[Ingoro]

I love this reverse thing, I tried it, I screamed every time I used it against my friends in friendlies, probably not a good idea. but ye, i can defintly see options.

 

[Geenareeno]

LOL I punished my friends MK dash attack with it and yelled and disturbed his sleeping mom. It was so **** though. Did the same thing with wavebounced rock smash.

 

[Bomber7]

I love this reverse thing, I tried it, I screamed every time I used it against my friends in friendlies, probably not a good idea. but ye, i can defintly see options.

You sir, have some balls.

Just so I know, do we know exactly what we can follow up with after the Reverse Shift? Or will it save time to say anything.... or almost anything to use as a punisher.

I want to think that following up with a grab would be a good idea because I think in all probability, your opponent would shield, but I have a concern about my opponent grabbing me out of their shield when I rush in to punish them (or spot dodge into a counter).

 

[CoonTail]

You sir, have some balls.

Just so I know, do we know exactly what we can follow up with after the Reverse Shift? Or will it save time to say anything.... or almost anything to use as a punisher.

I want to think that following up with a grab would be a good idea because I think in all probability, your opponent would shield, but I have a concern about my opponent grabbing me out of their shield when I rush in to punish them (or spot dodge into a counter).

Honestly bomber you have all the options you have when you hydroplane except now they should be safer since your retreating......reverse shift grabs work real well if they wiff an attack or sit in shield. So in short yes we can assume we have all our options out of reverse shifting nothing is limited by it.

Some of my best moments with reverse shifting has been while the opponent has been behind me and I reverse shifted so as I moved forward they wiffed an attack then as I slide back I was able to cleanly grab them. Lol also reverse shift u-smash is kinda as sexy as shell shift pivot f-smash.

Also reverse shift jabs/combat walking ftw...the amount of times I have done this to a grab happy marth has been outstanding......Grab wiff's jab connects as I slide back

Also yea ramses champloo kicks *** I've watched a lot of anime but overall champloo still takes the cake as the best......the last 3 episodes honestly are in a league of their own as far as good anime goes.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I loved how they even added real Dutch voice actors to the series just for entertainments sake, especially so being a dutchie myself.

 

[Bomber7]

I was just curious, because in the past, I always wind up fighting our #2 guy who plays wario. He spot dodges everything I send at him and punishes me. Though in my early days of fighting him I did harass him with jab+jab+grab+beat-up and repeat upon release.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Full hop dair is good against shielders who spotdodge. You can move away and be pretty safe or if you see the spotdodge fastfall into him.

 

[Geenareeno]

So I was playing around with this and I realized how good it is. The video doesn't do it justice at all. You can get huge amounts of distance by doing it earlier. But if you need to space a punish you can do it later. I can't wait till I master this and the other hydroplaning techniques.

 

[T-block]

Full hop d-air becomes 10x more useful against taller characters, of which Wario is not. If you notice Wario is spotdodging a lot, sh d-air is fine though. It's a lot riskier, but once you hit him a couple times he will be thinking twice before spotdodging.

 

[Steeler]

i like to dtilt

shield pokes too

 

[CoonTail]

Im glad your seeing the applications G because reverse shift's open up a whole new demension fro squirtles ground game.

 

[T-block]

So what are the moves you guys typically use out of reverse shift? I think I would be using a lot of f-tilt... grab if they get baited? Would anyone use jab over f-tilt? What about u-smash/f-smash? =o

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I like to immediately hydroplane USmash. Screw up their timing by psyching them out first.

 

[Ingoro]

Ftilt, since I'm not 100% comfortable with it yet.

 

[Geenareeno]

F smash punish would be insane, you'd have to space it super well. I grab because it's easy. Also does anyone know/have the frame data for when squirtle's dash frames end and he can pivot into a shell shift?

 

[Scatz]

I think it's just from people not using it. It's in a sense like Dragonic Reverse for Yoshi, it's obviously a good move for spacing, but might be much more difficult to actually utilize since characters are a lot more safer. Still, i'ma try to put this into my Squirtle game so I can actually use him when I'm not feeling my Yoshi or Pika.

 

[CoonTail]

I dont really do anything in particular out of reverse shift because it is all situationally dependent....they wiff an attack or shield I'll grab, I'll f-tilt if range is a worry, reverse shift jabs are nice to handle an opponent really rushing you down.

By far my fav is punishing spot dodges with reverse shift U-smash because people hate getting hit by u-smash enough as is but reverse shift u-smash is even more flashy along with angering your opponent even more