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Human Activity (and Population Growth)

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A1lion835

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The human population is projected to reach 9 billion easily in the next 40 years. Every year, more rainforested (and other) land is being cultivated for agriculture.

Elephants are getting smaller and smaller tusks because they're less likely to be poached that way. Hundreds, thousands, of species, habitats, and ecosystems are being disrupted by human activity.

Mankind is waging war against the world and is dangerously close to winning. Can this way of life really be justified?


For the record, I am not an environmentalist. The term implies that the enviroment is "out there", separate from "us."


:phone:
 

T-block

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Sure it can be justified. Humans are still ultimately a part of the natural world, where there are no "laws". We are able to assert our dominance over other species, and claim space and resources for ourselves. From a natural perspective, doing so is the best course of action in order to maximize the survival of our species.

Whether our actions are sustainable, on the other hand, is a completely different question.
 

Dre89

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Well apparently the entire human population could fit inside Texas, with each person having more living space than in the Bronx.

We should all move to Texas....

I don't see what people expect humans to do. We're not structured to fit into an ecosystem like other animals, this was always inveitable.
 

Ocean

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Well apparently the entire human population could fit inside Texas, with each person having more living space than in the Bronx.

We should all move to Texas...
I'd like to see a source for this.

I don't see what people expect humans to do.
take actions that less harm the world we live in. it's not an outrageous thought.

We're not structured to fit into an ecosystem like other animals, this was always inveitable.
we live in an ecosystem regardless of whether or not we "are structured to live in it".
 

T-block

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Area of Texas: 268,581 sq mi (696,241 km2)
Population Density of the Bronx: 32,393/sq mi (12,507/km2)

Space resources for Texas at population density of the Bronx:
(268581 sq mi) * (32393/sq mi) = 8700144333

So around 8.7 billion people that can be supported space wise.

Numbers taken from Wikipedia.
 

A1lion835

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@T-block: how can you justify something on that large a scale if it's unsustainable and there are no plans to stop it?

I don't see what people expect humans to do. We're not structured to fit into an ecosystem like other animals, this was always inveitable.
Humans evolved from hunter-gatherers. Before the Agricultural Revolution, we WERE hunter-gatherers. How are we unable to live "out there"?

:phone:
 

T-block

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If it's unsustainable that's a different issue. It would then be illogical to continue if we were to look at the future of humanity.

If you just want me to justify what we have done already, however, I have no problem doing that.
 

ballin4life

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Area of Texas: 268,581 sq mi (696,241 km2)
Population Density of the Bronx: 32,393/sq mi (12,507/km2)

Space resources for Texas at population density of the Bronx:
(268581 sq mi) * (32393/sq mi) = 8700144333

So around 8.7 billion people that can be supported space wise.

Numbers taken from Wikipedia.
That's assuming we build a bunch of tall buildings in Texas though, right? No way you get that high of population density without building upwards.
 

Dre89

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@T-block: how can you justify something on that large a scale if it's unsustainable and there are no plans to stop it?



Humans evolved from hunter-gatherers. Before the Agricultural Revolution, we WERE hunter-gatherers. How are we unable to live "out there"?

I never said we couldn't live out there, my point was we'd still be doing harm in the long run.
I never said we couldn't live "out there", but the point is no matter where we are we are going to do harm.

:phone:
:phone:

:phone:
 
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The human population is projected to reach 9 billion easily in the next 40 years. Every year, more rainforested (and other) land is being cultivated for agriculture.

Elephants are getting smaller and smaller tusks because they're less likely to be poached that way. Hundreds, thousands, of species, habitats, and ecosystems are being disrupted by human activity.

Mankind is waging war against the world and is dangerously close to winning. Can this way of life really be justified?


For the record, I am not an environmentalist. The term implies that the enviroment is "out there", separate from "us."


:phone:
You act as though we were "outside" of the ecosystem.

We're not.


Imagine, if you will, a species of termite. Very effective, very powerful, so much so that it basically takes over the world. Would you refer to them as "waging a war against the world"?

No, what separates us is the ability to tell the difference! Because we are heavily logical, and very much self-aware, we are able to view our actions in regards to the environment. This in no way separates us from the natural world. It simply makes us able to judge how our actions will affect it. And for all intents and purposes: as long as the earth remains livable for us, then there's no reason to change our way of living.
 

A1lion835

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If it's unsustainable that's a different issue. It would then be illogical to continue if we were to look at the future of humanity.

If you just want me to justify what we have done already, however, I have no problem doing that.
I don't think you can justify what humans have done already, because of my main point -- it's not sustainable.

I think we've boiled down into a war of definitions. I define sustainability as necessary to justify something, while it appears as though you don't. We can't get much farther if those remain true.


You act as though we were "outside" of the ecosystem.

We're not.
Does the last line of the OP not impact you at all? I explicitly said I didn't think humans were "outside" any part of the biosphere.

Budget Player Cadet_; said:
Imagine, if you will, a species of termite. Very effective, very powerful, so much so that it basically takes over the world. Would you refer to them as "waging a war against the world"?
I don't call becoming a dominant species "waging war against the world." I call it waging war when that species refuses to consider the biotic limit of the earth as a barrier to growth, and instead of stopping the production of new organisms they cultivate more and more land for agriculture, which increases the population, which increases the need for crops, etc. I call it waging war when that species make dramatic changes to the environment that, if continued, will have drastic effects.

Budget Player Cadet_; said:
No, what separates us is the ability to tell the difference! Because we are heavily logical, and very much self-aware, we are able to view our actions in regards to the environment. This in no way separates us from the natural world. It simply makes us able to judge how our actions will affect it.
I never said I disagreed with any of this.

Budget Player Cadet_; said:
And for all intents and purposes: as long as the earth remains livable for us, then there's no reason to change our way of living.
And for all intents and purposes: as long as my head remains attached to my neck, there's no reason to stop the sword from cutting it off.
 

T-block

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That's assuming we build a bunch of tall buildings in Texas though, right? No way you get that high of population density without building upwards.
Yes.

Without building upwards, each person would get something like a 4ft x 4ft square =P

I don't think you can justify what humans have done already, because of my main point -- it's not sustainable.

I think we've boiled down into a war of definitions. I define sustainability as necessary to justify something, while it appears as though you don't. We can't get much farther if those remain true.
Sustainability is a silly criterion for considering something "justified".

A man, 25 years old, lives with his wealthy aunt and uncle and has never had a job. His parents were also wealthy, but died when he was a boy, leaving him a large sum of money when he became an adult. He parties often and spends his parents' money. Is this behaviour sustainable? Certainly not. Is it justified? Why wouldn't it be? It will lead to his demise if he continues, but why should that now mean his behaviour was somehow unjustified?

You are letting the survival of the human race come into play when it really doesn't have to. We can say "this man can do what he wants, and he's been able to up until this point, but if he doesn't stop, he'll be in trouble". If we remove ourselves from the human race momentarily as observers, we can say the same thing about the human race.

I don't call becoming a dominant species "waging war against the world." I call it waging war when that species refuses to consider the biotic limit of the earth as a barrier to growth, and instead of stopping the production of new organisms they cultivate more and more land for agriculture, which increases the population, which increases the need for crops, etc. I call it waging war when that species make dramatic changes to the environment that, if continued, will have drastic effects.
lol "refuses to consider"

We are the only species with the ability to "consider" in the first place. Consider the termites brought up by BPC. Let's say they reproduce incredibly quickly and are incredibly resistant. It comes to be that it's projected that they will have devoured every tree within ten years. Can you really say the behaviour of these termites is then "not justified"? None of them know the potential effects of their actions on the rest of the world. They are acting only according to their basic survival instinct. Perhaps they eat all the trees, and then as a result the world changes so that they can no longer live, so they die out. This is all part of the natural world.

We can apply the same thinking to humans. If these termites don't need justification, why should humans?
 

Bob Jane T-Mart

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Area of Texas: 268,581 sq mi (696,241 km2)
Population Density of the Bronx: 32,393/sq mi (12,507/km2)

Space resources for Texas at population density of the Bronx:
(268581 sq mi) * (32393/sq mi) = 8700144333

So around 8.7 billion people that can be supported space wise.

Numbers taken from Wikipedia.
But that's a ridiculous analysis. The people in the Bronx don't grow all of their own food there, or make their own clothes, goods etc. they get most of it from outside the Bronx, I'll wager.
 

T-block

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Note that I was sure to specify I was only talking about space.

I was responding to this post:

Well apparently the entire human population could fit inside Texas, with each person having more living space than in the Bronx.

We should all move to Texas....

I don't see what people expect humans to do. We're not structured to fit into an ecosystem like other animals, this was always inveitable.
 

Battlecow

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I'm with ballin' and BPC. I honestly don't give a **** about elephants except inasmuch as they give me aesthetic pleasure from watching them do their thing. I mean, I don't hate polar bears, but if keeping them alive means cutting back on my standard of living, **** them. I eat pigs every day. Why do I care how many species go extinct in the Amazon? I mean, I understand that some people really love nature. That's understandable. They have the right to try to protect it. But they don't have the right to tell me that I have to protect it as well.

Guess what? I ****ing like agriculture. More feed corn means that my hamburgers are cheaper. I get value from hamburgers, but I don't actually give a tinker's damn about rainforests because they don't affect me or 99.99% of the other people in the world.

Now, global warming is an interesting one. That really does affect us. But eh, I live in the midwest. NYC can build some goddamn floodgates, and Venice+Holland can deal with it. Still, I think that we should research clean, cost-effective alternative energies, simply because something might eventually turn up and it'd be nice.
 
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