Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[ForTheLulz]

eclipse 2 kage vods
top 8
bracket to top 8
a noob (kappa)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0Fg_6yfHv0

kage vs leffen LQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13i3Jf7qsXo

kage vs android Losers top 8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbUa1QHoonA

kage vs armada WQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gK325Mbuz5c

kage vs trifasia winners top 24

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7VOVCDA_nw

kage vs issi^ Pool A9

 

[tm]

My idea is that you could cover his sweet spot side-b by doing a drop zone uair right as you see him fall in line with the ledge. If he firebirds instead, you might be able to double jump and up-b him from certain positions, allowing you to get back to the stage after.

Thoughts? I'm gonna try it out tonight in friendlies and see how well it works.

A good idea. Sounds like it could actually work. Sucks if uair trades with sideB though.

 

[Oldiz]

I've done dropzone uair to edgeguard side b, but it often just clanks and puts you in a horrible position. Probably best to do edgecancel uair/dair and grab ledge then react.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I've done dropzone uair to edgeguard side b, but it often just clanks and puts you in a horrible position. Probably best to do edgecancel uair/dair and grab ledge then react.

I'll need to test how fast you have to react to not trade and what distances it's possible at.

 

[tm]

You would definitely need to not react to the sideB, but just begin the runoff when you see he's too low to sideB onstage. Even then it may be too slow tho

 

[Oldiz]

I also played at Eclipse 2 this weekend, and played one set on stream vs Professor Pro (who got 4th).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC94pYxz_Mo
In bracket I lost to Android 3-0, but took 2 stocks each game, and lost to another sheik Stelzig 3-2 in losers even though I 3 and 2 stocked him the games I won.

 

[-ACE-]

O Oldiz that first match tho lmao. When you bair someone's shield, nowadays, it's better to AC and wd away instead of yolo ftilt. Good players don't run into the ftilt and usually punish it. Try to be a more of a dirty down holder like Kage (lol). You missed a few good cc opportunities. Looking like ACE with some of those B-moves, be careful.

 

[Divinokage]

I so wish I was on the other side of the bracket for 4th omg! =P

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I so wish I was on the other side of the bracket for 4th omg! =P

Losing to only Armada and Leffen ain't half bad man. Good job!

 

[Divinokage]

Ain't half bad.. loll.

Anyways if i wanted to beat Armada and Leffen they exposed my lack of practice + i felt a lot more pressure due to how consistent they are. However, i did not feel overwhelmed at all i just needed to be more crisp overall. The gods are real good but when you lose to them while you had a really good run before they just show where you were weak at. I never once thought that because they are top 5 in the world that i dont stand a chance. You need some ego and heart to fight these guys, you arent allowed to give up before the game even started if you want to succeed. You simply need to be aware of whats going on in game + feeling how your opponent's mindset is. Also obviously finding your own optimal mindset which for me is when i enjoy myself + riding the hype the game/people bring.

 

[ForTheLulz]

I felt like you had it together half the time...

and then you looked like a fraud the other half XD

edit: this is only based on my viewing of you vs leffen. watching you vs armada now

last game reminds me of the unfortunate loss of one of my other heroes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gD9CyQ0L5tc

 

[Divinokage]

If I looked like a fraud losing to Leffen I'd expect it with how little I practice.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I'm actually kind of surprised you only pulled out the Falcon vs Armada when you were down a couple games. Did you just have more confidence with Ganon for everyone else? Or did you just not feel like your Falcon was in practice?

 

[-ACE-]

Some recent Ganon vidz

Bizz vs westballz
https://youtu.be/W8z3aOnb6a4

Bizz vs wieners (Marth)
https://youtu.be/3Px2Dycbb2c

Bizz vs Kira (fox)
https://youtu.be/mNj5Fuv0YHo

Tipman vs porkchops
https://youtu.be/owCVOa2oFMM

Tipman vs mesa (sheik)
https://youtu.be/4mM3iH_gIgw

Bizz with a decent cg on west game 1. Reminder: know when not to use uthrow.

 

[-ACE-]

vids just started uploading from last tgl on "TrailGamingLeague". Subscribe.

SFL Ganons didn't do as well this tourney, but it's hard to do better than last month lool

 

[Divinokage]

Ganon in NTSC = RIP. lol

 

[-ACE-]

Ganon in NTSC = RIP. lol

PAL sheik/fox, even Falco/marth are great. Puff is worse tho and peach is slightly harder. Weak stomp has its pluses for combo'ing but the weakness of fair stifles the dthrow kill confirm (floaties).

 

[Divinokage]

PAL sheik/fox, even Falco/marth are great. Puff is worse tho and peach is slightly harder. Weak stomp has its pluses for combo'ing but the weakness of fair stifles the dthrow kill confirm (floaties).

Barely.. Jiggs still dies at around 100% with downthrow to Fair. Marth actually dies earlier in PAL + he's slower, the matchup is probably even in PAL I'd say. The changes to Fair vs Peach is insignificant. https://youtu.be/gK325Mbuz5c?t=983 NTSC Fair

 

[-ACE-]

Maybe stifle was too strong of a word lol. Hinder

Edit: nice DI peach lmao

 

[Divinokage]

Maybe stifle was too strong of a word lol. Hinder

Edit: nice DI peach lmao

No way because Fair is weaker, I did Fair x4 in Ganon dittos vs Oldiz lol. + On fast fallers you can Fair into downsmash as a techchase to get huge damage. It has better uses in someways.

 

[tm]

Some recent Ganon vidz

Bizz vs westballz
https://youtu.be/W8z3aOnb6a4

Bizz vs wieners (Marth)
https://youtu.be/3Px2Dycbb2c

Bizz vs Kira (fox)
https://youtu.be/mNj5Fuv0YHo

Tipman vs porkchops
https://youtu.be/owCVOa2oFMM

Tipman vs mesa (sheik)
https://youtu.be/4mM3iH_gIgw

Bizz with a decent cg on west game 1. Reminder: know when not to use uthrow.

ty ty ty

 

[-ACE-]

No way because Fair is weaker, I did Fair x4 in Ganon dittos vs Oldiz lol. + On fast fallers you can Fair into downsmash as a techchase to get huge damage. It has better uses in someways.

Lmao kage, you're supposed to DI fairs away in NTSC dittos, let alone pal dittos (below mid percent and not close to ledge). Late fair to instant uair scoop is more viable but multiple fairs should never happen.

 

[ForTheLulz]

ace u forgot bizz vs kira

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNj5Fuv0YHo

 

[-ACE-]

It's there lol. Good adaptation by bizz

 

[Divinokage]

Lmao kage, you're supposed to DI fairs away in NTSC dittos, let alone pal dittos (below mid percent and not close to ledge). Late fair to instant uair scoop is more viable but multiple fairs should never happen.

You give players too much credit, anyone can get caught by DI traps or DIing badly. If everyone was able to play optimally then man.. Melee would be a lot more boring that's for sure. lol Even the gods right now get caught doing bad stuff. Playing the player is where it's at.

 

[-ACE-]

You give players too much credit, anyone can get caught by DI traps or DIing badly. If everyone was able to play optimally then man.. Melee would be a lot more boring that's for sure. lol Even the gods right now get caught doing bad stuff. Playing the player is where it's at.

Recognizing when you'll be hit by something as slow as Ganon's fair is far from playing optimally. Work on that DI son! This is Ganon dittos 101

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Recognizing when you'll be hit by something as slow as Ganon's fair is far from playing optimally. Work on that DI son! This is Ganon dittos 101

Yeah but no one's perfect at that. Poor DI happens all the time at all levels.

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah but no one's perfect at that. Poor DI happens all the time at all levels.

Quadruple fairs? LOL. I don't think perfection is required to avoid that. I've personally played enough dittos to know to DI fairs away, especially at low% at center stage. And that's NTSC. I can only imagine I would've learned it much sooner in PAL. I don't think the Ganon meta is really evolved/developed anywhere other than US/Canada, I'm sure you can double fair lots of Europeans in PAL, but you won't catch me very often. I just don't think I'm that special. I see it as very basic, and very easy.

 

[Divinokage]

Quadruple fairs? LOL. I don't think perfection is required to avoid that. I've personally played enough dittos to know to DI fairs away, especially at low% at center stage. And that's NTSC. I can only imagine I would've learned it much sooner in PAL. I don't think the Ganon meta is really evolved/developed anywhere other than US/Canada, I'm sure you can double fair lots of Europeans in PAL, but you won't catch me very often. I just don't think I'm that special. I see it as very basic, and very easy.

https://youtu.be/13i3Jf7qsXo?t=112 Well look at this setup then, he certainly crouch canceled and DI away PAL's Fair yet look what you can get, it's really dirty. =D

 

[-ACE-]

You hit him mid-ftilt, so he didn't cc. I didn't see much DI away either (at least not straight away), that would've given him ledge for free. Kinda looks like he was holding down, maybe in a bad attempt at countering fair (you can tell Android isn't incredibly versed in the Ganon mu) or to get ledge if the fair knocked him slightly offstage. He could've probably slammed up and away and cancelled his stun on the platform edge, but he'd probably end up teching and getting uair'd.

Linguini's been using that same dsmash setup since like 2007. It's definitely more applicable in PAL, but not exactly exclusive to it.

I DI off reaction a lot. Like if I'm playing against falcon, I can't react to his uair, but I can react to his positioning, and the knee. If I'm in the air and he dashjumped at me, I'm holding away and slightly up if he hits me with the outermost portion (tipper) of the uair. If he's able to get directly under me I switch to full away because the top part of his uair has less kb and leads to knee every time vs medium floaties, and I switch to survival DI when I see the knee coming. I'm just saying I've conditioned myself to react to Ganon's fair the same way I do falcon's knee, been bodied by Tipman/spider_sense/linguini too many times when I came to FL lol, had to develop that habit.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Quadruple fairs? LOL. I don't think perfection is required to avoid that. I've personally played enough dittos to know to DI fairs away, especially at low% at center stage. And that's NTSC. I can only imagine I would've learned it much sooner in PAL. I don't think the Ganon meta is really evolved/developed anywhere other than US/Canada, I'm sure you can double fair lots of Europeans in PAL, but you won't catch me very often. I just don't think I'm that special. I see it as very basic, and very easy.

Oh yeah no, quad fairs should not really happen. But double fairs are not that unlikely ya know. I think Kage was just using the as an extreme example.

 

[Oldiz]

For the quad fairs he sheildpoked me with a fulljump fair on top platform, the doublejump fair which caught me trying to jump over it, but i had already landed on the side platform so it was too laggy. I think he might've true comboed the last two fairs from the 2nd fair. Normally the fairs wouldnt be able to combo, but they were incredibly stale, and it was on yoshis so i really didnt want to di away. Its often good to just take the damage anyway, if it lets you recover high.

IIRC

 

[-ACE-]

O Oldiz even on ys you can DI up and away and escape the next fair, as long as you have a jump you'll get ledge for free in various situations regarding location and percent.

 

[-ACE-]

Tried to get up with spider_sense, Tipman, and porkchops a few hours ago. Even drove to versus to see if a single soul was playing melee. Turns out it's a street fighter circle jerk on Fridays. Pretty sure Jason heard how much I've been practicing and moved to Alaska. As for the others, they're probably getting the finishing touches done on their tailor-made tutus for their Halloween costumes.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Grinded with a decent Sheik/Fox last night. Because we have a history, our matchup when he plays Sheik, the character he started with, it's very read heavy and not as indicative of how the matchup is outside of the punish game. But his Fox is newer, and in some ways better, so I learned more through that.

I'm getting better at baiting rolls and punishing with dair. I don't think I missed a single one whenever I went for it. I'm trying to use dsmash more for this kind of corner pressure since it's also positive on shield. My problem is I'm not the best at finding or creating the opportunities to use it.

I found a pretty good use for it in the corner, though. Everyone knows it can gimp, but it's hard to land only the first hit, let alone any part of the move when you're in the corner. But I was able to trade it with Nair off a ledgehop so only the first hit hit him and spiked for a kill at low percents. I could only do this at medium and low percents myself so I could survive the Nair. My idea behind it was that he kept doing nairs to stuff my RLD dj shenanigans. And before, he was dash dancing and spacing himself to cover ledgedash, giving me the opportunity to RLD dj fair or lh dash off dj bair. So I tried to condition in three parts. I'm not sure how reliable this mixup strategy is, but it worked several times throughout our session.

 

[tm]

I'm trying to use dsmash more for this kind of corner pressure since it's also positive on shield. My problem is I'm not the best at finding or creating the opportunities to use it.

dsmash isn't positive on shield
first hit is 5 frames shieldstun (-23)
second hit is 8 frames shieldstun (-10)

People just
1. Don't know the animation or how fast they can act OoS
2. Try to go for wavedash -> grab (almost every time) instead of a faster option (but this is still possible from shielding the first hit)

Somehow dsmash on shield -> jab still works on 99% of people LUL

EDIT: Might be off by 1 or 2 frames on these bc reference numbers

 

[-ACE-]

Dsmash is so sweet.

When it works

 

[Bwmat]

I try to use it in spacie side b reads way more than warranted

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I played a bunch of Melee again yesterday and when playing some of the puffs there, I experimented a bit more with purposefully using tournament-winner to put myself in the air when Puff is trying to come over my from being off stage. After doing it a good number of times, I felt like you kind of have a vertical advantage over Puff in this regard, especially if you upair on the way down. I know tournament winner can be useful for getting to Peach, but I hadn't used this for Puff before.

I'm also still amazed at my ability to just body space animals on FD.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I played a bunch of Melee again yesterday and when playing some of the puffs there, I experimented a bit more with purposefully using tournament-winner to put myself in the air when Puff is trying to come over my from being off stage. After doing it a good number of times, I felt like you kind of have a vertical advantage over Puff in this regard, especially if you upair on the way down. I know tournament winner can be useful for getting to Peach, but I hadn't used this for Puff before.

I'm also still amazed at my ability to just body space animals on FD.

If you are better than the other player, fd is good against spacies. I ban pokemon against someone I'm confident against to remove the jank factor instead.