Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[-ACE-]

****, I need to warm up for this tourney saturday but the job is draining all my energy lately. Me and colbol bringing the classic team back. The world ain't ready!

I'm off Wednesday. We need to play with clay

spider_sense hit me the **** up muh fugga or someone gonna find you fishin when you're snuffed out, you'll wind up missin, like a cub scout.

 

[Linguini]

Yeah im down dayve. Prolly post 8pm when I get offe. I'm sure clay will be down. Need to get in the lab and test some ****

 

[Divinokage]

It was 2-1 vs Iceman btw. I tried to play my bracket match just waking up + venue was super cold. Wasn't in fighting condition at all. Missed basic downthrow combos so many times =(

 

[Duel]

It was 2-1 vs Iceman btw. I tried to play my bracket match just waking up + venue was super cold. Wasn't in fighting condition at all. Missed basic downthrow combos so many times =(

Sorry I got it wrong, when I looked at the bracket it said 2-0.

 

[tm]

I mean, if you crank the numbers it's about the same as getting a cg regrab on fox at 50%. Pretty sure you can do that 50% of the time. You just have to be focused on the first visual cue of fair just like you focus on DI visual cues for the cg. If his second fair is a frame or 2 late, which is common, it obviously gets easier. All I said is you have good reaction time, if you're denying that, share the dank!

Oh I do think it's possible, it's just not something that I've trained or focused on in particular. Mine are just guesses. Definitely worth doing!

 

[Nicco]

This is the best board in the world you guys! I don't post often here, but I've been reading alot lately.
My tag i K1kk0m4n. I'm currently ranked as the 3rd best Ganondorf in Europe, when you count both Ganon mains and secondaries.

I have a question about edgeguarding pika. Most posts in here seem to be under the impression that it is almost better to give pika the ledge and apply corner pressure. Has anyone tried to edgeguard pika like Sheik? I'm having pretty smooth success with it. I either time a regular get up or the getup roll to force Pika to land on stage. It doesn't work all the time, but it's better than nothing.
I either do that or try to aerial edgeguard basically...

EDIT: Can someone explain or link to a good explanation of "untechable stomp"? And does it work in PAL? I'm not really sure how this looks like in action or why it's untechable...

 

[Swagic]

This is the best board in the world you guys! I don't post often here, but I've been reading alot lately.
My tag i K1kk0m4n. I'm currently ranked as the 3rd best Ganondorf in Europe, when you count both Ganon mains and secondaries.

I have a question about edgeguarding pika. Most posts in here seem to be under the impression that it is almost better to give pika the ledge and apply corner pressure. Has anyone tried to edgeguard pika like Sheik? I'm having pretty smooth success with it. I either time a regular get up or the getup roll to force Pika to land on stage. It doesn't work all the time, but it's better than nothing.
I either do that or try to aerial edgeguard basically...

EDIT: Can someone explain or link to a good explanation of "untechable stomp"? And does it work in PAL? I'm not really sure how this looks like in action or why it's untechable...

Pikachu is actually SUPER easy to edgeguard. The trick is to put a hitbox where he changes directions in his up-B (if you can). If you can't, treating him like Sheik is actually a really good way to look at it, except that Pikcahu doesn't have much ending lag if he doesn't land directly on the ground. Sheik always has that ridiculously long landing, but Pikachu gets a very short version if his animation ends above the stage. What Axe goes for, for example, if he can't get ledge, is to end his up-b one frame before he hits the stage, because of how much shorter the end lag is. If you can force that, though, you do get the one frame of elongated hitbox on Pikachu, meaning a perfectly-timed ledgehop uair will hit if he's too close. You only get one frame to hit him, though.

What I would recommend (and what I usually go for) is to put a hitbox in front of the ledge, like a dair or low bair, and force him to come on stage, then give him a quick jab-uair. It's not a combo at mid-high%s, but it's reasonably reliable. Sometimes it's possible to get the waveland-ftilt, which can kill around 55% on Yoshi's, with some really bad DI from Pikachu.

The biggest thing with Pikachu is to respect him on the ledge. A reverse-tailspike means a dead Ganon, and it's remarkably easy to do with Pika's ledgehop uair if you're standing to close. They could also mix it up with ledgedash usmash, and theirs is stronger than Fox's. Pikachu also doesn't have an awful ledge attack (<100%), but that's mostly just annoying. Giving Pikachu ledge then applying some pressure with a DD on the platform wouldn't be a bad idea. Whenever he gets up, you can go for a drop through-bair.

Honestly, you really don't need to edgeguard Pikachu because of how light he is. By that I mean if a uair hits him far enough for you to edgeguard, the next bair will probably kill.

The whole Pikachu matchup is Pikachu running around, looking to land a single nair/uair to start a combo (that only does like 25% if you DI properly), and Ganon basically standing there jabbing him out of it until he messes up enough to land a meaty hit. Fishing for hits on Pikachu is about as safe as fishing for hits against Peach. Except instead of dsmash, you get fox-usmashed. (Yes, I am simplifying, but you get the idea)

Oh, and if you're offstage getting edgeguarded, good luck. Nair, tailspike, dair, thunder jolt, even thunder and skull bash if they're swagging out, all easily end in dead Ganon. Pikachu can edgeguard probably better than you can (one of the few characters that's even debatable about).

Ace is the master of the untechable stomp, but there were a few posts on it probably 25 pages ago, along with a discussion on the mechanics. I don't remember the explanation, unfortunately.

 

[Deleted member]

This is the best board in the world you guys! I don't post often here, but I've been reading alot lately.
My tag i K1kk0m4n. I'm currently ranked as the 3rd best Ganondorf in Europe, when you count both Ganon mains and secondaries.

I have a question about edgeguarding pika. Most posts in here seem to be under the impression that it is almost better to give pika the ledge and apply corner pressure. Has anyone tried to edgeguard pika like Sheik? I'm having pretty smooth success with it. I either time a regular get up or the getup roll to force Pika to land on stage. It doesn't work all the time, but it's better than nothing.
I either do that or try to aerial edgeguard basically...

EDIT: Can someone explain or link to a good explanation of "untechable stomp"? And does it work in PAL? I'm not really sure how this looks like in action or why it's untechable...

Kikkoman Kreygasm
Why arent you coming to Eclipse 2 dude?

 

[Nicco]

Pikachu is actually SUPER easy to edgeguard. The trick is to put a hitbox where he changes directions in his up-B (if you can). If you can't, treating him like Sheik is actually a really good way to look at it, except that Pikcahu doesn't have much ending lag if he doesn't land directly on the ground. Sheik always has that ridiculously long landing, but Pikachu gets a very short version if his animation ends above the stage. What Axe goes for, for example, if he can't get ledge, is to end his up-b one frame before he hits the stage, because of how much shorter the end lag is. If you can force that, though, you do get the one frame of elongated hitbox on Pikachu, meaning a perfectly-timed ledgehop uair will hit if he's too close. You only get one frame to hit him, though.

What I would recommend (and what I usually go for) is to put a hitbox in front of the ledge, like a dair or low bair, and force him to come on stage, then give him a quick jab-uair. It's not a combo at mid-high%s, but it's reasonably reliable. Sometimes it's possible to get the waveland-ftilt, which can kill around 55% on Yoshi's, with some really bad DI from Pikachu.

The biggest thing with Pikachu is to respect him on the ledge. A reverse-tailspike means a dead Ganon, and it's remarkably easy to do with Pika's ledgehop uair if you're standing to close. They could also mix it up with ledgedash usmash, and theirs is stronger than Fox's. Pikachu also doesn't have an awful ledge attack (<100%), but that's mostly just annoying. Giving Pikachu ledge then applying some pressure with a DD on the platform wouldn't be a bad idea. Whenever he gets up, you can go for a drop through-bair.

Honestly, you really don't need to edgeguard Pikachu because of how light he is. By that I mean if a uair hits him far enough for you to edgeguard, the next bair will probably kill.

The whole Pikachu matchup is Pikachu running around, looking to land a single nair/uair to start a combo (that only does like 25% if you DI properly), and Ganon basically standing there jabbing him out of it until he messes up enough to land a meaty hit. Fishing for hits on Pikachu is about as safe as fishing for hits against Peach. Except instead of dsmash, you get fox-usmashed. (Yes, I am simplifying, but you get the idea)

Oh, and if you're offstage getting edgeguarded, good luck. Nair, tailspike, dair, thunder jolt, even thunder and skull bash if they're swagging out, all easily end in dead Ganon. Pikachu can edgeguard probably better than you can (one of the few characters that's even debatable about).

Ace is the master of the untechable stomp, but there were a few posts on it probably 25 pages ago, along with a discussion on the mechanics. I don't remember the explanation, unfortunately.

I'm gonna try that! That seems like a good strategy! Treating Pika like Sheik is very viable as Falcon, but as Ganon it requires a bit more of a read to cover it correctly. Looking forward to test this out!

Kikkoman Kreygasm
Why arent you coming to Eclipse 2 dude?

Hey man! Good to see another viking Ganon/Falcon main haha! :D I'm going to Dreamhack and Beast, so Eclipse is a little too much for me. Tournaments are very stressful for me, because I eat around 4000 calories a day, and Norway is just too expensive xD

 

[Oldiz]

We need to get all the European ganon mains to Eclipse tho, and have a huge round robin, especially since Kage is coming!

 

[-ACE-]

If you've got pika conditioned to land onstage, ledgedash is often necessary to punish his landing lag.

 

[Nicco]

We need to get all the European ganon mains to Eclipse tho, and have a huge round robin, especially since Kage is coming!

Haha good luck with that, since they're all in France! Kage coming is pretty huge though... is he only attending Eclipse? How about Dreamhack?

If you've got pika conditioned to land onstage, ledgedash is often necessary to punish his landing lag.

I usually try to time the regular get up roll, so you're ready to grab as pika lands. It depends on where he Up Bs from though.

 

[Linguini]

It was 2-1 vs Iceman btw. I tried to play my bracket match just waking up + venue was super cold. Wasn't in fighting condition at all. Missed basic downthrow combos so many times =(

Dude that's the worst. That's how I lost to axe at apex 2012...

 

[-ACE-]

I usually try to time the regular get up roll, so you're ready to grab as pika lands. It depends on where he Up Bs from though.

Then pika can just go straight up instead and fall to ledge unpunished (having time to react). Regular getup and ledgedash are better.

 

[Nicco]

Then pika can just go straight up instead and fall to ledge unpunished (having time to react). Regular getup and ledgedash are better.

I know what you mean. Regular get up is my go-to, but I use the roll when I sort of read them going far on stage. Depends on where they upB from. I'll try the ledgedash.

 

[-ACE-]

My good controller has been located! Left that **** in Georgia. I'll have it in a week. Can't wait to chaingrab again lmao.

 

[tm]

Pikachu is actually SUPER easy to edgeguard.

no

rest of that post was good tho

If you've got pika conditioned to land onstage, ledgedash is often necessary to punish his landing lag.

Then pika can just go straight up instead and fall to ledge unpunished (having time to react). Regular getup and ledgedash are better.

yes

IMO it's best to start by always grabbing ledge, sometimes at the last second, sometimes with timings that are "too obvious" and you double-bluff your opponent into thinking that you'll actually get off. Then after a while when they just always go onstage (have fun getting back onstage from ledge during that whole first part tho) mix up ledgedash and staying on ledge. Gotta be real good at your ledge game tho in order to win back center stage every time you miss a read.

 

[Swagic]

no

Am I the only one that thinks so?

 

[tm]

SUPER easy? Compared to what, puff?

 

[-ACE-]

Am I the only one that thinks so?

Yes. Easy to edgeguard means they never get back. Pika has a good recovery and Ganon has to play his cards extremely well to cover the various options of certain situations.

tm good addition with the double bluff comment. Sometimes I like to jump out and dj fp bair then drift back to ledge, forcing them high then the beating them to ledge for edgehog or frame advantage over their landing lag.

 

[-ACE-]

I got asked tonight "how does it feel to be the most active poster on smashboards?"

LMAO.

Of course you know I replied

"Heavy is the crown"

 

[X WaNtEd X]

You can always try stomp......irl

Usually it makes people mess up their removery.

Aside from what other people posted, you can try to time lh uair regrab so it covers two options.

 

[-ACE-]

spider_sense HMU I'm off at 10:30 tonight. Got you something!

 

[Waldoring]

More videos:

https://www.twitch.tv/pghneohsmash/v/94958132?t=03h11m12s (vs marth)
https://www.twitch.tv/pghneohsmash/v/94958132?t=04h17m28s (vs icies)
bracket: http://moal.challonge.com/Moal128MeleeSingles

I'm doing better vs marth, still a lot of mistakes in neutral and tech flubs though.

I've literally never played against an icies player before, so I'm fine with two close games with a power ranked player.

tm https://www.twitch.tv/pghneohsmash/v/94958132?t=04h18m45s

 

[tm]

More videos:

https://www.twitch.tv/pghneohsmash/v/94958132?t=03h11m12s (vs marth)
https://www.twitch.tv/pghneohsmash/v/94958132?t=04h17m28s (vs icies)
bracket: http://moal.challonge.com/Moal128MeleeSingles

I'm doing better vs marth, still a lot of mistakes in neutral and tech flubs though.

I've literally never played against an icies player before, so I'm fine with two close games with a power ranked player.

tm https://www.twitch.tv/pghneohsmash/v/94958132?t=04h18m45s

Lol. Haters, man. That's what he gets for picking sheik vs me.

Not really tho, I didn't even camp him. Just waited for his invincibility to run out each stock. He wasn't lying about the 0-death part tho

Poor sheik doesn't have any answers to ledge-camping ganon

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Lol at the guy like "but that's what Sheik does!"

 

[RedmanSSBM]

"Sheik's ledge-stall isn't even good."

I know a scrub when I hear one. Who lets these kids on the microphone at tournaments?

 

[Bwmat]

Which vid are you guys referring to?

 

[Waldoring]

B Bwmat https://www.twitch.tv/pghneohsmash/v/94958132?t=04h18m45s
a bit after complaining about tm.

 

[Bwmat]

Lol

Ganon SHOULD play like that. I do that when I'm raging sometimes

 

[PseudoTurtle]

How is Pikachu easy to edge guard lol. I forgot who said it, but they said to treat pika as if he was sheik when edge guarding. Not really applicable in all situations, but a decent strategy when pika is far offstage, but can either land on stage or sweetspot.

Like Dave said, ledge dash in is good, grab should auto combo into bair and fair at higher %. Only problem is with good DI, they'll be high enough that you can't really rinse and repeat. Also pika's lag time after up b is much shorter than sheik's.

What up guys. I've been busy as **** and haven't played in a couple months. Trying to get this website of mine off the ground, eating up basically all my time and money lol. Once the dust settles a bit, I'll be back on the grind.

What'd I miss?

 

[ForTheLulz]

This tournament happened last weekend

 

[-ACE-]

So I'm going to shatter this short period of inactivity by staying two things.

I got my good controller back.

Jason will be the lucky recipient of the stone cold stunner as soon as I finally see him

https://youtu.be/UOVgfzO3npg?t=4s

 

[-ACE-]

I'll be working 6 nights a week a little bit longer than expected, but I now vow to practice the necessary amount to destroy Jason Grice as soon as I see him. This may seem like overkill, but I plan on practicing 25 minutes a week.

 

[spider_sense]

LOL My body isn't ready. Good thing I've been working on the "People's elbow" Myb man, been getting bopped by work and just been sleeping in alot of days, I'll hit you up this weekend for sure homie.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Just had an idea I want to test out.

Imagine a scenario where you're right by the ledge facing offstage and falco is recovering. Falco is low enough to side-b to the ledge and avoid your ftilt. He's positioned so he can either do a shorten or mid shorten to make it as a mixup to a regular side-b. This is a situation that I see arise quite often in this matchup now that falco players are becoming more and more technical.

So I've been thinking about how to cover it. To tipman, you have to jump preemptively. And if falco sees this while coming down, he can just Firebird on reaction from a position where he can sweet spot low or go high. Or he can even side-b at you if close enough before your uair comes out. At longer ranges, you can just uair before he makes it, though. And the other thing is tipman, while really brutal, is just not hit consistently by any Ganon player on sweet spots.

So I was thinking of ways to cover this that are easier and could potentially be hit with more consistency. My idea is that you could cover his sweet spot side-b by doing a drop zone uair right as you see him fall in line with the ledge. If he firebirds instead, you might be able to double jump and up-b him from certain positions, allowing you to get back to the stage after.

Thoughts? I'm gonna try it out tonight in friendlies and see how well it works.

 

[-ACE-]

If he's far enough away, I'll take ledge and either regular getup, or ledgehop grab depending on the height he side-b's at. But I'll just try low ftilt until he proves he can sweetspot well. Another thing is take ledge and getup uair onstage to Tipman the sweetspot attempt and grab side-b landing lag onstage. Also, if you're able to catch this situation preemptively, you can sh offstage ready to ff uair the side-b, and if he doesn't side-b right away, you continue to go offstage, giving less options each pixel you advance, and ff dj uair him (sometimes risky, always aggressive).

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I do the same with ftilt. But it's becoming more common that falcos I play can sweet spot consistently.

The thing with grabbing the ledge I'm finding is that doing a grab to cover the landing lag, while theoretically should kill, gives more of an opportunity for you mess up and them to have counterplay. I'm finding more and more that uair at high percents to platform tech chase is becoming less reliable because good players will di to the edge and fall off. Dthrow works, but if they keep diing toward center stage, you're less likely to get the edgeguard.

I like the preemptive short hop idea. Because that also will cover a high side-b if they are far away enough. At closer ranges, I think it would be best to stay grounded. Maybe high ftilt would cover side-b edge cancel on yoshis. Or just cover everything else until they do that and then make it a rps situation.

 

[-ACE-]

That's why the cg is so good. If you've knocked them offstage they're usually at a percent that's easy to cg.

If they're close enough to side-b edge cancel on the inner ledge of the ys lower plat, reacting with ftilt will be tough.

 

[Waldoring]

My usual process for Falcos is to initially assume that they will either go for the low (but not sweetspot) side b from far away, side b onto stage, or firebird; I ignore the possibility of sweetspot side b. For the first few edgeguards, I do as you say and either jab/low ftilt side b, and walk closer to ledge and low ftilt for firebird. High firebird is just a sh uair. Since jab/ftilt lead to death and uair leads to a reset, this covers everything besides sweetspot side b.

If he proves that he can sweetspot side b, runoff uair can cover side b to ledge, but not side b on stage or firebird. If he's far enough offstage that up B/side b onstage put him at ledge, a well timed dj up B should be able to catch both and reset to neutral, though instant shine out of firebird would make the timing close.

The only option that this flat out doesn't cover is high shorten to ledge, but I haven't had anyone catch on to this yet. I also haven't labbed this out, so the frame data might just not work out against a perfect player.