Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[F. Stein]

Ganon is life, Ganon is love, welcome to the league of extraordinarily evil kings.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I played a bunch of Ganon vs $mike tonight and I swear I got like 15 upairs in a row on him trying to recover and sweetspot on FoD LOOL. I just kept standing at the edge and just upairing the sweetspot. **** was mad funny and it got recorded too. I could have gone longer but I miss-timed the last one. I might try to get some of that Ganon footage and look more at it, cause I did some pretty nice things vs his Falcon.

 

[Godwin_Point]

Hello !
I'm currently trying to launch a melee scene in my town. I'm working with another versus fighting association, and have got some people interested in melee. There are 2/3 "best arround the block" type of player(that used to play melee a lot without knowing about the advanced stuff) that are at least familiar with platform fighters and movement, but the rest of them have never played anything similar.

Anyway, one of theme is really interested in the game. He's really familiar withstandard vs fighting(street fighter, garou etc)
He always plays the same character archetype(Zanguief) and is interested in Ganon

I'm supposed to go to his house to play him a few hour and show him some stuff. Obviously i'm going to start with coering his basic moves(jabs, grab, aerials etc) L cancel, wavedash and wavelands...

Is there anything in particular I should teach him ? Any practice routine he could use to get used to linking aerials? (For exemple, Falcon can grab marth at 0 percent, D throw him and go nair >nair> upair etc. Is there anything like that for ganon?)

 

[-ACE-]

Ganon has dthrow punishes galore but you have to be precise sometimes to get the proper follow-up (depending on matchup, percent, DI, how close you are to platforms/ledge, etc).

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Dthrow leads to at least one aerial on all characters other than fast fallers at most percents. You tech chase fast fallers with d/uthrow until high percents. You can also chaingrab fast fallers + Sheik. It's DI dependent with falcon and reaction based with the rest. Sheik is doable. Fox and falco require really fast reactions, but getting a few in a row before a tech chase off predictable DI is doable.

 

[-ACE-]

Edgeguarding:

http://smashboards.com/threads/ganon-edgeguarding-102-peach-added-is-ace-full-of.266671/

Techchasing fox, Falco, and falcon:

http://smashboards.com/threads/techchasing-into-2015-metagame-and-theory.369684/

Chaingrabbing:

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...de-update-12-31-06-falco-cg-vids-added.85582/

Ganon's knockdown data (creating techchase opportunities):

http://smashboards.com/threads/ganondorfs-knockdown-data.360530/

Techchasing is fundamental for Ganon. You need to have a strong sense of situation awareness so you can recognize a techchase opportunity before it happens, and visualize all his options quickly, make a decision, and react as quickly as possible.

There's much more room to express yourself in melee than most other fighting games, so there's usually (a lot) more than one solution for any given situation. You want to be in control with your character, and in this day and age, you want some tricky movement too. Train to play as ruthless as possible.

 

[F. Stein]

Went to a tournament out of state today,like an hour and a half away. Was a fun school tourney. Got to meet lots of people, play friendlies. Pulled out a clutch set vs a Peach where the matchup suddenly just clicked for me. He got me down to two stocks and 80% and then my brain just started working and I took three off him before he killed me again. Took the set.

Then I ran into a Marth player, almost four stocked him, then he switched to shiek and my day was ruined lol. After that I got bodied by another marth player that just spammed SH double fair and full hop tripple fair. Didn't really know what to do. These guys and their secondaries man, it sucks lol. But I was a lot less distressed at losing in a different place, it was more fun to be in a different crowd of people that were nicer.

Though I still run across the random guy that applauds a Shiek for beating a Ganon like it's some great feat xD unless I play perfect at my level then Shiek is an ez mode win against my ganon still but w/e. High tier secondaries should be banned >:D

 

[-ACE-]

As soon as marth sh fairs your shield, you want to be holding down and in usually, so you can shield DI forward. From there, you uair oos between the fairs (it'll hit unless he fully spaced the fair), or shield grab him if he's close or times or spaces the fair improperly.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

You can also punish that with dash attack sometimes. The right hitbox, percent, and DI can lead to a uair.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Yea, you can definitely up air in between SH double fairs, unless spaced basically pixel-perfectly. And in that case, you can probably wavedash back and reset your positioning. I find that crouch canceling is a very good approach to take in the marth matchup if the marth is very aerial heavy.

CCing gets you grabs against nair (don't have to worry about cross ups) and jabs / dtilt against fair. You can also grab fair if it's spaced improperly. Just don't CC dair lol.

I wouldn't CC in place as much against dash dancing, though you can CC dtilt at lower-mid % and it leads into a dtilt of your own or down-b to set up for an edge guard.

Dash dancing is probably the hardest thing for ganon to beat in the marth matchup because of marth's insanely huge dash dance range. Vs spacies, dash attack can be a good way to beat DD, but marth can react and dash dance away until it's grab time (you don't want to be grabbed by marth). What I like to do is inch my way in and crouch when marth is at the range and position when he can aerial you (kind of difficult, takes some situational awareness), and then repeat until you have marth near the edge of the stage (ganon excels here vs literally everybody lol). Once marth is forced near the ledge, watch for aerials, wall out with bairs, etc.

This is easily my favorite and best matchup, but it took me the longest to learn (besides maybe falco). Fighting against a character with more range than you forces you to change your style up and not rely on hitboxes as much.

One more thing I forgot to mention - when you're in your shield, marth shield pressure is super fake and gimmicky lol. If they are going to aerial pressure you, up air will beat out marth aerial every time unless spaced properly. Watch out for spaced nair into fsmash. If you do feel an fsmash coming, full hop out of shield and fair. Totally free.

 

[Swagic]

So while I was practicing yesterday, I ran into a strange phenomenon that I haven't seen/heard about before. I have an annoying problem with holding shield too long while I waveland (it's getting better), and while I was working on doing them around Yoshi's, I was about to waveland off the ledge then waveland in the opposite direction on the ground. Except I rolled back across the platform instead.

So that got me thinking, because I like to recklessly waveland in when approaching, I tried wavelanding in and rolling out to bait out attacks, and it worked. Surprisingly well. Baited a rest off my friend's puff, turned into a kill. Other bairs I had issues punishing in time (fox usmash), but maybe faster people could get those.

Also, does anybody know how many frames of vulnerability Ganon has when ledgedash-rolling to center stage between the ledgedash and the roll?

 

[PseudoTurtle]

I believe Tipman said that if you do everything frame perfect (frame perfect Waveland, buffered roll, etc), that you can initiate the invincibility from rolling one frame before ledge invincibility runs out. I don't think I've ever been punished for it, but I'm sure your opponent can figure out a way to do so if you don't mix it up.

Ganon has so many options from the ledge, we should basically never be punished for them. Probably one of the most underdeveloped of ganon tech

 

[F. Stein]

So, I'm going off to relax and not play smash with anyone during spring break. So I've got basically ten days to do solo training for a couple of hours a day. I really want to nail some stuff down. What is the most effective way to practice moving well with Ganon? As in moving quickly and not having those dumb, pause moments.

I'm going to take the time and try to learn RLD and all of my ledge options really well, tired of not doing well. What are all the things I can potentially do from the ledge?

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Pretty sure there's a thing on 20XX where your character will turn green when not moving, so you can make sure you're acting out of moves and acting out of wavelands etc. When I started practicing, we didn't have that luxury lol. Just keep practicing and trying to do things as quickly as you can. Idk, for me at least, it just kind of came to me eventually. Guess that doesn't help much lol

Just watch a really quick ganon like spidey, linguini, or n0ne and try to emulate their movement. I remembered seeing spider sense for the first time when I was still a slow-moving ganon... opened my eyes a bit lol.

Also, watch the video triforce of power. OG Tipman combo video. Once you can do all of the things demonstrated in the first part of the video, you're well on your way to having the basic tech and movement necessary.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

meant to update you guys on that tournament i went to on monday. no vids because this state doesn't like recording things anymore. i destroyed everyone including our #4 ranked player (you can see him here, fox player https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZpuVptQUbw) except for a sheik player from virginia named NikolaTesla. beat him 2-1 in winners and then i beat him 3-2 in grand finals, clutching it out super hard on fd in game 5 with some really amazing grabs. i went all ganondorf because i was sick and couldn't manage playing falco since it'd take too much out of me. seriously felt like i was dying at the tournament and idk how i made it happen. i'm going back again next monday but i doubt i'll get anything recorded

 

[WoK_a^2]

Glad your still out there playing, see if there are any weeklies with a recording tho, we need more vids!

I have a couple more sets I'd like to have critiqued, the two most important I think being these two

I've been focusing on my ledge options, and just being confident enough to perform in tourney. Also working on full length wd and wl but i'm just bad so ignore that.

https://youtu.be/tEYwWgnhMEQ?t=1h2m

https://youtu.be/tEYwWgnhMEQ?t=30m29s

My observations/thoughts

Set 1
I was definitely playing neutral around the platforms, don't really know much to say about this.


Set 2
I was obviously going to platforms a lot to deal with lasers, then when falco would go up id either take the ground or try to upair scoop out from under him through the platform. Also seems like I was cc'ing/dashing back after getting hit by lasers to space arround his approach.

Too many double jumps in neutral. Epecially at end of poke last stock, I was playing way too scared

I also start to get really desperate at times, visible on FoD even though I had the lead, I'd just do dumb dash attacks. That was tourney nerves getting to me.

Bonus gif thanks to spidersense. Saw him do this vs someone and landed it atleast twice that tourney. http://makeagif.com/ZrB4mS


Bonus three sets if you're feeling enerous and want to critique more. games are one after another n the first vid
https://youtu.be/tEYwWgnhMEQ?t=1h32m32s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXbxYuHzAg0

 

[Swagic]

Any tips for RLD? I've got ledgedashes down, but they're giving me trouble.

My usual method is control stick back-forward-jump. Sometimes I'll get the backflip coming off the ledge, but turns out you can still land ledgehops like that. Looks weird as ****, but it works. Anyway, not sure if I just need to get the timing down better or should try re-learning it a different way.

 

[-ACE-]

i'm going back again next monday but i doubt i'll get anything recorded

Everyone too high to use a smartphone?

Of course I mean elevation.

 

[F. Stein]

Ha! Yeah, usually they are too high. Especially in the Fort Collins area. The only game they usually stream to my knowledge is Sm4sh. I entered that for fun and broke someone's shield on stream with Ike. Was kinda funny and destressing.

 

[tm]

Any tips for RLD? I've got ledgedashes down, but they're giving me trouble.

My usual method is control stick back-forward-jump. Sometimes I'll get the backflip coming off the ledge, but turns out you can still land ledgehops like that. Looks weird as ****, but it works. Anyway, not sure if I just need to get the timing down better or should try re-learning it a different way.

You can do it with whatever method you want (two most popular methods are probably the hadouken method aka quarter circle rolling down to in, and dash dance method aka hitting away then in quickly)
You can potentially be 2 or 3 frames late between letting go of ledge and jumping, because ganons downward acceleration is pretty slow and you dont lose much height. What's more important is that you're holding in when/as you jump, and you time the R/L hard press precisely. If you do the fall off / double jump perfectly, then I think you have a 3 frame window or so for the R/L press, but if you're not perfect in the drop / double jump, then you'll only have a 1 or 2 frame window

each individual input isn't that hard, but putting it all together quickly can be difficult. Also be aware that to have as much invincibility as possible you'll want to drop from ledge on the first available frame after grabbing it.

my method: (from left ledge, facing to the right)
drop from ledge
+ immediately jump towards the stage (but never press Y before in)
(wait like ~12 frames)
+ waveland back

I like the dash dance method because it's a motion that I'm already very proficient at, and basically every character utilizes it. After a while you get used to the timing of each joystick click. Also, it's not much different to do on each side, where as the hadouken method (->+) was a bit more difficult for me to do to the left than to the right.

 

[Swagic]

Why is it that after trying to get it for a couple weeks, I post here asking for tips, then get it before I see tm's response? Also, apparently my DD needs work, because I occasionally have been hitting ff when I try it, which explains some of the trouble.

 

[Swagic]

Also, can we try improving the Pseudodash? After the moonwalk-fair waveland offstage after them into WF spike. I'd concede the set on the spot, even if it's first stock game one.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Ha! Yeah, usually they are too high. Especially in the Fort Collins area. The only game they usually stream to my knowledge is Sm4sh. I entered that for fun and broke someone's shield on stream with Ike. Was kinda funny and destressing.

you going to battery basement 5 at the end of the month? i'm confirmed for that and i should be getting stuff recorded. it's in foco. not far from you iirc.

and dave it's mostly because denver only had one person to record melee stuff, and he works full time like me now lol

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Playing Falcon for a long enough time and then playing Ganon a bunch kind of makes you realize just how slow Ganon is. Gah the rust was real today. I played a lot of Dr. Mario as well and had some solid games with him.

 

[F. Stein]

you going to battery basement 5 at the end of the month? i'm confirmed for that and i should be getting stuff recorded. it's in foco. not far from you iirc.

and dave it's mostly because denver only had one person to record melee stuff, and he works full time like me now lol

Yes, I'm registering for that sometime this week. I'm locking myself in my basement for a week to grind movement and techskill and options from the ledge. That's why I was asking for homework on facebook lol. I'd love to actually meet you down there.

I'm contemplating being a volunteer to record Melee Fort Collins stuff because there is a strong possibility that I can make almost every weekly events down in Fort Collins for the rest of the semester at least. I'd be down to start documenting that stuff.

 

[-ACE-]

Played some with porkchops yesterday, not very long though. His fox was giving my Ganon a hard time, I won 1 game out of 5 or 6 games. Then I pick luigi against his falco. First stock, I hit him offstage from middle stage and immediately wd into taunt. He firebirds diagonally up towards the ledge and gets taunt spiked (spider_sense as witness). This is why they call me the vigilante. Eat your heart out Blea

 

[Mr.Cochise]

Got to play 14 hours of melee over the past two days. Mainly because of my TMG team forfeiting our match because we weren't driving 3 hours one way to get trashed on by a team composed of our arcadian winner and 4 people who made the top 16 arcadian bracket.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Played some with porkchops yesterday, not very long though. His fox was giving my Ganon a hard time, I won 1 game out of 5 or 6 games. Then I pick luigi against his falco. First stock, I hit him offstage from middle stage and immediately wd into taunt. He firebirds diagonally up towards the ledge and gets taunt spiked (spider_sense as witness). This is why they call me the vigilante. Eat your heart out Blea

too bad ganondorf's **** doesn't have a spike hitbox on his taunt

 

[F. Stein]

Ganondorf's taunt is kinda weird though. I've heard stories about it making lots of things whiff for no apparent reason. Anyone ever done any research into it?

 

[-ACE-]

Ganondorf's taunt is kinda weird though. I've heard stories about it making lots of things whiff for no apparent reason. Anyone ever done any research into it?

Bizz showed me 2 years ago that it makes the wind blow. Taunt and watch your opponent's cape.

 

[Swagic]

I've seen it both reflect and just absorb Samus charge shots. I don't know why. The hitboxes (checked in 20XX) don't do anything special during a taunt at any point.

 

[F. Stein]

Guess that shows that 20XX doesn't show everything afterall lol.

 

[Diosama]

Went to a small monthly (~40 people). We did pools and then 2 brackets, 1 pro, 1 amateur. Lost to SAUS and a Sheik main in my pool. whatever.jpg I'll just win amateur. Lost in the first round but made an amazing loser's bracket run à la Mango. 3-0'd the guy who kicked me to loser's during loser's quarters and reset the bracket in grand finals. Then my opponent picked Sheik and won.

I am very mad

**** sheik man, I'm gonna dual main marth ganon

 

[F. Stein]

nah, dual main Ganon and Kirby and watch sheik's confusion. Stall the match out to 8 minutes after surviving a swallowcide. Taunt the entire game.

 

[Bwmat]

Almost beat sion today, took first game and went to last stock second game, but got 4 stocked the third lol. Wish it was recorded.

Had a pretty hype set against another pr falco (zilo) on stream http://www.twitch.tv/vanstreetbattle/v/54089254 but lost in the end

**** why did I stay ganon when he counterpicked fd, should have gone falcon or fox

Also played friendlies on stream @ that link from 3:22 on, with a genuine melee hell admin.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

i love when falcos take me to fd

 

[Bwmat]

Also toph came to our weekly today lol

 

[-ACE-]

i love when falcos take me to fd

What do you ban?

 

[Godwin_Point]

Thanks for the advices everyone !

 

[tm]

Ganondorf's taunt is kinda weird though. I've heard stories about it making lots of things whiff for no apparent reason. Anyone ever done any research into it?

It also dodges puff's rollout. If they don't know and are charging it, stand next to edge and taunt for hilarity

I'm starting to like FD in general. It simplifies neutral and makes it easier for me to see where I'm making mistakes / what my opponent's game plan is. Also most spacies are actually ass at recovering on that stage lol

Got 17th at a MI regional yesterday, my worst non-national placement in like a year. 1-2 vs Prince Abu then 0-2 against Tran, MI's 2nd best fox main
blah