Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[-ACE-]

As far as Falco combos, you want to be slamming the stick away every time he hits you (unless you can cc or ASDI punish). SDI is still so underused.

Falcon can't compete with Ganons footies on a small stage. If Ganon has center on YS falcon is quite scared of uair.

Edit: 25,000 replies to this thread.

 

[Swagic]

And I've read every single damn one... I have never hated ****posting more in my life.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I've accidentally done this new ledge tech a few times to save myself from an RLD. Didn't really think much about it though. I just thought it was common sense that the airdodge could be used like that.

Personally I don't think it's worth practicing. You should just get proficient enough at the RLD to never miss it. And besides, there's no situation where it's good to do RLD a bunch of times in a row. Ledge hop regrab is way safer to use as an invincibility refresh.

I think RLD is good for:

1. Faking out someone to see what ledge option they will cover.

2. Falling out of the RLD into a uair, bair, or dair (really good against Marth).

3. RLD dj aerial

4. Pseudodash

5. Faking out someone recovering so they go for the ledge.

None of that stuff requires you to do it too many times in a row. So it really shouldn't be too hard to perfect it.

 

[-ACE-]

RLD into analog offstage dj bair/uair isn't used (you can drift back to ledge after either).

I'm certainly not ruling this as useless so quickly. Ledge dashing into shield or other options with survival DI buffered can be really good.

 

[tm]

Ledgedash with or goes the same distance as holding the stick sideways, makes me think it's the same.

??? are you sure? because ledgedash with doesn't go as far as .

So I'm coming to the end of the thread (I've read the whole damn thing finally) and I have a couple of random thoughts as I finish it-

1. Why has a "Ganon tech how to" guide not really been made? Things like RLD, NIL, inv regrab, edge cancels, etc, etc, etc. Just a place to compile all those things instead of having to reteach all those things.

2. Maybe a "how to get grabs"? Or maybe just discuss it for a bit. Ganon's optimization is going to require at least being able to threaten a cg, so we should be able to get that first grab. I know the most common are tomahawks, empty sh wl into grab, and Shield SDI/DI into grabs. But what about other things? Or even what shield DI is for new faces.

3. For such a momentum-based character with a crappy neutral, we never talk about it. I mean, sure, we talk about micro situations a lot, like u-ftilt for an anti-air or something like that, but we don't really talk about momentum much. For example, falco starts comboing you to hell, what do you do? (In b4 counterpick to Marth) Well, you can Shield DI or SDI things around to get out of it or get the grab. But how do you counter a super-rushdown Falco or a needle-tilt happy Sheik? And we all know (I hope) how important center stage is for controlling game flow, but why is it important? How does it control the flow? Why does holding center stage slow down a Falcon on Yoshi's who's running and jumping arouns on the platforms while you DD threateningly on the ground? I'm less concerned with WHAT works here and more with WHY things work, because that can lead easily into people having new ideas.

4. That matchup thread NEEDS to be updated.

Alright, that's all I have for now. Hopefully this leads to fruitful stuff.

excellent thoughts dude. I agree strongly with all points
how does it feel to be a time traveler?

edit: I'll write some guides once I'm good

 

[-ACE-]

tm I know. I just tried up and forward and it was the same. Maybe I was slightly more forward than the NE/NW notch.

:DK taunt:

Someone can test, I'm not home atm.

I also believe that for the pseudo dash, forward and up+forward work for the analog dj but not forward+down, but not sure.

 

[Swagic]

tm It's actually not bad. I feel like an old-school player even though I've only been around the scene for about 3 months now.

Edit: ****, it's been almost 5 months

 

[Swagic]

Also, just playing around with NIL, you can backjump onto the BF platform and nair and both kicks will come out before you land. Might have uses, might not. Maybe fp it MIGHT ac? MAYBE?

 

[Waldoring]

I couldn't get it with backjump, but regular fullhop nair autocancels if fp (+/- a frame).

Surprisingly, frame perfect in this case does not mean "right after the jump input." Rather, due to more Ganon ECB shenanigans, it's a few frames after, otherwise you AI the second hit of the nair and it doesn't AC.

 

[-ACE-]

tm once you're good?!?! Lol too late. You could already do a good sheik or peach guide.

 

[ForTheLulz]

So I'm coming to the end of the thread (I've read the whole damn thing finally) and I have a couple of random thoughts as I finish it-

1. Why has a "Ganon tech how to" guide not really been made? Things like RLD, NIL, inv regrab, edge cancels, etc, etc, etc. Just a place to compile all those things instead of having to reteach all those things.

2. Maybe a "how to get grabs"? Or maybe just discuss it for a bit. Ganon's optimization is going to require at least being able to threaten a cg, so we should be able to get that first grab. I know the most common are tomahawks, empty sh wl into grab, and Shield SDI/DI into grabs. But what about other things? Or even what shield DI is for new faces.

3. For such a momentum-based character with a crappy neutral, we never talk about it. I mean, sure, we talk about micro situations a lot, like u-ftilt for an anti-air or something like that, but we don't really talk about momentum much. For example, falco starts comboing you to hell, what do you do? (In b4 counterpick to Marth) Well, you can Shield DI or SDI things around to get out of it or get the grab. But how do you counter a super-rushdown Falco or a needle-tilt happy Sheik? And we all know (I hope) how important center stage is for controlling game flow, but why is it important? How does it control the flow? Why does holding center stage slow down a Falcon on Yoshi's who's running and jumping arouns on the platforms while you DD threateningly on the ground? I'm less concerned with WHAT works here and more with WHY things work, because that can lead easily into people having new ideas.

4. That matchup thread NEEDS to be updated.

Alright, that's all I have for now. Hopefully this leads to fruitful stuff.

We've got Bizzaro Flame's fancy ganon tech guide on showdown.gg but matchups are probably something important that we need to expand on.

 

[Swagic]

Coincidentally, the site is down right now. I read it a little while back and remember not being terribly impressed with it, but it is a good introduction.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

^^^ agreed with Dave. Peach and sheik are still two of my weaker matchups (peach especially). Tm, you're very good at both of them. You destroyed the peach that destroyed me at evo lol and I'm still struggling vs mid-level peaches.

I'd be happy to contribute to a marth guide. Could probably give some advice on falco, too, but Jason / linguini would definitely have more to say than I would on the matter.

I'd also more than likely be able to provide some insight on the lesser-played matchups, like DK, Samus, Roy, and yoshi. Not that those would be as useful as our harder matchups, but still couldn't hurt.

 

[Coastward]

i was gonna say joe, you defs got that marth stuff down.

i could do samus, ****s ****ing EASY.

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah Joe knows that mu. Saw him 3 stock swiftbass' marth at Evo just before dart! 2 stocked me lol. Joe, if nothing else, has the best natural habits vs marth of any Ganon.

 

[Mr.Cochise]

Personally I really should get better at the peach matchup just need to practice with my training partner who mains peach. That was my favorite matchup when I mained zelda and I like playing the matchup as ganon. Is there any things I should know what to do in the matchup? My partner usually beats the ganons in my region so I know hes proficient at the matchup or the ganons in my region are bad against peach. I know if I pressure her so she can't pull a turnip the matchup can be significantly easier.

 

[F. Stein]

The peach matchup is so fun, stomp ruins her day, she can't deal with Uairs. Learn to catch turnips and the matchup is a nightmare for her. The only thing that's tricky with her is learning to guard her recovery. Bair spaced on shield is super safe against her. Any specific questions on the matchup?

 

[Coastward]

Yeah Joe knows that mu. Saw him 3 stock swiftbass' marth at Evo just before dart! 2 stocked me lol. Joe, if nothing else, has the best natural habits vs marth of any Ganon.

at big house 5, me and joe were in a hotel room with swiftbass and a bunch of other tristate people and he was BODYING him lmao.

he also said my ganon was better than his

 

[Mr.Cochise]

The peach matchup is so fun, stomp ruins her day, she can't deal with Uairs. Learn to catch turnips and the matchup is a nightmare for her. The only thing that's tricky with her is learning to guard her recovery. Bair spaced on shield is super safe against her. Any specific questions on the matchup?

I know her recovery if shes goes high you just need to react to where shes coming down from the float.On that same token when she goes to the ledge or tries to come from it shes pretty limited so its easy from there since ganon can cover a decent amount of options.Am I wrong there? I probably should work on catching turnips I've done it a little against my partner but I just have remember to actively think about catching/dropping the turnip. I do agree though its hella fun to play against peach.

 

[-ACE-]

Watch linguini edgeguard peach.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

at big house 5, me and joe were in a hotel room with swiftbass and a bunch of other tristate people and he was BODYING him lmao.

he also said my ganon was better than his

You were playing well, what can I say lol... yo I was getting bopped by all sorts of people that day, ask blea / rula. Happens man, but I stepped it up day 1 pools.

Yeah Joe knows that mu. Saw him 3 stock swiftbass' marth at Evo just before dart! 2 stocked me lol. Joe, if nothing else, has the best natural habits vs marth of any Ganon.

Get bopped by your buddy's marth consistently for 2 years only to find that everyone else in your area plays marth and you're gonna learn the matchup haha.

Learned to play the game getting near JV5'd by Ripple, then his buddy Dart! comes down to Champaign and you see how deep the rabbit hole goes. Keep playing only to have the #2 player in Chicago, also a marth main, at every tournament you go to in the city.

And god DAMN did I ***** about that matchup for the longest time LOL

 

[Swagic]

You were playing well, what can I say lol... yo I was getting bopped by all sorts of people that day, ask blea / rula. Happens man, but I stepped it up day 1 pools.



Get bopped by your buddy's marth consistently for 2 years only to find that everyone else in your area plays marth and you're gonna learn the matchup haha.

Learned to play the game getting near JV5'd by Ripple, then his buddy Dart! comes down to Champaign and you see how deep the rabbit hole goes. Keep playing only to have the #2 player in Chicago, also a marth main, at every tournament you go to in the city.

And god DAMN did I ***** about that matchup for the longest time LOL

Pretty sure I learned more about Ripple's style than yours for a little while there.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

IT'S STILL HERE. Forgot about this little gem.

God, I was actually so bad at this game lmfao. I look at some of those decisions and cringe. Granted, I was very new at this point, but holy **** LOL.

Fast forward two years and here I am.

Go one year deeper and you get sets like this. Vro is #2 in Chicago and #2 marth in Illinois. Haven't beaten him since though, unfortunately.

I also have sets with Sago floating around on youtube somewhere and I've only lost, like, one match to his marth. He's top 10 in Chicago and probably #3 marth in Illinois. He also took a match off of the great LINGUINI at apex 2012 (I think that's the tournament).

^ Just a little motivation for all you new players out there. If you're struggling with a matchup or something, you can do a complete 180. Just do a PseudoTurtle and ***** about it for a year until you learn it lol.

I can pretty much promise you I was worse when I started than you are LMAO.

 

[Swagic]

Gonna be honest, Pseudo, tm, and (formerly, not sure what he's doing anymore) Bl@ckChris were my favorite to see join the community. The progress was definitely noticeable. Also you guys were worse than I was when I started. Unfortunately, Florida doesn't record...

 

[PseudoTurtle]

And I can't speak for everyone, but my progress has been exponential since I started learning how to play the game. I'm way ahead of where I was when I won against vro. I was still getting 3 stocked by Dart! consistently. I could now see myself potentially taking a game off of him... but only in a bo5 lmao. And I'd have to be playing godlike. Really wish I had some recent stuff.

Keep playing, keep practicing. If you're better than where I was, you're already well on your way. It took me a year or so to make it out of pools and it took Dart! TWO years to start making it out of pools.

Swagic, USE A SMART PHONE. It's not too hard lol. Or get a recording setup yourself, they cost like seriously $25 on ebay. Though if money's an issue, a smart phone gives very watchable quality.

 

[Swagic]

Oh, I know. My training partner isn't a huge fan of recording our training matches, and I can't make it out to tourneys as much as I like, because I'm about an hour from the regular venue. I'll work on doing that, though. At this point, I'll take a potato recording. I know I have some bad habits, I just need to be able to actually see how many there are.

Also, goofing around today in the Falcon mu- second kick usmash-fair-dair (no cancel) 0-death on Yoshi's, starting on a side plat. And he couldn't regular DI out of it (as far as I could tell). Tried it three or four times, worked every time. Doubt it's legit, but it would be a fun surprise to catch them on bad DI.

Edit: also, Ace, Spidey, and anyone else in the SFL area, Plup is confirmed for EagleLan. RockCrock is, to my knowledge, a very solid maybe right now. Also, $1k pot bonus, just by the way. So you know, if that's an incentive.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Second hit up smash is a fantastic combo starter, actually. I know it sounds strange lol, but yea. Didn't know it worked at zero as a combo move on a heavy fast faller though, I'll have to keep that in mind.

I don't see why it wouldn't be "legit," just keep in mind that almost no combo like that is truly guaranteed in this game because of DI.

Fun fact while we're talking about up smash: on FoD, you should always up throw fast fallers (at less than ~20%) when you're under a platform at its lowest height and then tech chase with up smash. I think it's guaranteed double hit because ganon does this weird ass thing where he teleports to the platform on up smash. If it hits, that's like 50+% after the throw lol.

I've also been messing around with the d!ck hitbox of up smash after stomp. I had a post about it earlier (Swagic you probably know what I'm talking about lol), but it could potentially be a DI mixup if they think you're going for the combo. Doesn't really work if they DI in though, but even then it's still pretty much a guaranteed edge guard scenario. Kills SUPER early on bad DI though.

 

[Swagic]

Well, I was thinking it's probably possible to SDI out of.

I've actually been playing with the same hitbox. It's both a lot bigger than you think but also a lot smaller. I've been playing with run-up usmash (because I like to pretend I play fox) and that hitbox does WEIRD things. Guaranteed knockdown is a BEAUTIFUL thing though. I got one into a dair techchase into fair for the stock. And then got three stocked... Fox is mean...

 

[PseudoTurtle]

but also a lot smaller.

nonsense. This is ganon's c0ck we're talking about

 

[Swagic]

nonsense. This is ganon's c0ck we're talking about

Then why doesn't it reach all the way across FD? That's not right.

 

[-ACE-]

Edit: also, Ace, Spidey, and anyone else in the SFL area, Plup is confirmed for EagleLan. RockCrock is, to my knowledge, a very solid maybe right now. Also, $1k pot bonus, just by the way. So you know, if that's an incentive

Link? Or basic info? I'm on like 2 years no Facebook lol.

Usmash is sick. Spidey and The Author were at my place the other day, lol stephen's falcon was snacking heavily on my usmash. You can literally just fair someone at super low%, run up and Yolo usmash in case they techroll toward you, and boom, c0ck blast offstage. But with falcon, he was getting sucked in and receiving both hits lol. Many WTF?!'s were had. And yeah that second hit leads to an easy follow-up. ALMOST wizkick spiked him after the usmash double hit but he hit the stage by ledge. Talk about disrespect lol.

 

[Swagic]

Event link-
http://eaglelan.com
Free entry, $1k pot bonus, melee bracket starts at 3 on April 23 at FGCU.

 

[Divinokage]

I wonder what Pseudo would say about my marth vs Ganon.. rofl.

 

[-ACE-]

I wonder what Pseudo would say about my marth vs Ganon.. rofl.

Lol linguini's jank Marth bodies Ganons too

 

[Divinokage]

Lol linguini's jank Marth bodies Ganons too

I mean if we cant own our own character, there's a big problem.

 

[-ACE-]

I mean if we cant own our own character, there's a big problem.

I have a few characters I can play decently vs Ganon but nowhere near as good as dittos.

 

[Swagic]

Yeah, but dittos are SO jank. I've had ditto sets go 2-1 where every game was a 4 stock. Ace, you've probably played so many you can control the jank.

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah, but dittos are SO jank. I've had ditto sets go 2-1 where every game was a 4 stock. Ace, you've probably played so many you can control the jank.

Lol yeah they're actually not that jank at truly high level. Most Ganons are straight booty at the matchup which opens the floodgates of jankness lol. Amongst me, linguini, tipman, and spider_sense, you really only see a 3 or 4 stock when one player starts playing bad from letting their opponent get in their head. We just don't break many cardinal rules of the mu (from experience.... Hardly anyone has good ditto practice). DI is really big. Not every hit leads to KO, although it can feel that way when one player is frustrated.

 

[Coastward]

I wonder what Pseudo would say about my marth vs Ganon.. rofl.

he'd say "stop getting bodied by the moon"

 

[-ACE-]

he'd say "stop getting bodied by the moon"

Lmfao!

I'm ready for that rematch tho, kage's DI was non existent during that GF set. He can do it