Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[-ACE-]

I feel like FD makes it so falco can only approach you horizontally (more so than normally). SDI will help you escape combos better than on a stage like YS also. And I also agree with tm's comment regarding the simplicity FD offers in some matchups. Power shield, wd oos, and intelligent wavedashes also keep the matchup more straight-forward.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

What you guys think about pokemon vs. Falco? The transformations are ass, but you can stall on some. And the plats give you slightly better mobility with the similar positives of fd.

 

[Swagic]

I would personally ban PS before I ban FD against a Falco, because the plaforms are too short to get much off of, and PS is basically FD size, with slightly smaller boundaries(I think... Does anybody know for a fact?), and the PS plats benefit Falco more than Ganon. A platform just helps Falco combo way too much and the stupid transformations just make things worse for the most part. I'd rather go FD than PS.

 

[Bwmat]

Ps is garbage, along with FoD. Only reason they're neutral IMO is that they're the lesser of the evils.

 

[Oldiz]

For those who aren't that good at RLD yet, I got a trick. As ganons perfect WL position allows you to airdodge upwards and still become grounded, you can airdoge up and away so that you can drift towards the edge if you fail. This way you don't need to die for a failed RLD.

 

[-ACE-]

For those who aren't that good at RLD yet, I got a trick. As ganons perfect WL position allows you to airdodge upwards and still become grounded, you can airdoge up and away so that you can drift towards the edge if you fail. This way you don't need to die for a failed RLD.

Holy **** are you serious? LOL testing this.

Tested. Doing this from now on. Damn. Thank you.

BTW, you guys will probably like these

https://youtu.be/-DYcUrBBVsc
https://youtu.be/N4p-s6XrHXE
https://youtu.be/ir-xM_I-a_Y

 

[-ACE-]

O Oldiz you just made the pseudo dash easier. Now it's only going from up and away to up and in, instead of backwards to forwards.

 

[Coastward]

For those who aren't that good at RLD yet, I got a trick. As ganons perfect WL position allows you to airdodge upwards and still become grounded, you can airdoge up and away so that you can drift towards the edge if you fail. This way you don't need to die for a failed RLD.

HOW DID WE NOT THINK OF THIS LMAO

 

[Oldiz]

O Oldiz you just made the pseudo dash easier. Now it's only going from up and away to up and in, instead of backwards to forwards.

What exactly is a psuedo dash?

 

[-ACE-]

What exactly is a psuedo dash?

https://youtu.be/6oQFMNsJKx0

Well, that's the backwards version of it anyway (forward wL normally).

 

[tm]

For those who aren't that good at RLD yet, I got a trick. As ganons perfect WL position allows you to airdodge upwards and still become grounded, you can airdoge up and away so that you can drift towards the edge if you fail. This way you don't need to die for a failed RLD.

wowowowowowowowowowowowow

 

[tm]

wait so if you try to ledgedash straight up, will you waveland in place? (after fading onto the stage ofc)

 

[-ACE-]

HOW DID WE NOT THINK OF THIS LMAO

It's even good for auto survival DI if you're hit during a wL... Seriously ledgedashing with forward and up now. One of my bad habits is not having good DI if I get hit out of a ledgedash.

 

[-ACE-]

wait so if you try to ledgedash straight up, will you waveland in place? (after fading onto the stage ofc)

Tested, won't work, you airdodge up.

 

[tm]

Tested, won't work, you airdodge up.

then wtf... physics pls
can you waveland onto a platform with ?

 

[-ACE-]

then wtf... physics pls
can you waveland onto a platform with ?

Yes you can, seems to be a product solely of vertical spacing (as long as you're horizontally on the plat lol).

Only straight up doesn't work.

 

[-ACE-]

I haven't tested this, but I believe it's probably only with Ganons forward/neutral dj animation, which seems to cover Ganon in super glue, just like his feet during a backwards jump (NIL's) lol.

 

[DCW]

Oh my gosh! This is the first new Ganon tech I know of in a long time. And useful, too! I kill myself so much with RLD, and the pseudodash used to be so hard. Thank you O Oldiz !!!

Edit: this is the biggest thing since the pseudodash, right? I wanna know my Ganon history.

 

[Coastward]

it feels so awkward to do, probably just gonna stick with the method i do already.

 

[DCW]

Coastward It feels awkward to me too, but that's just because we're used to doing it a different way. It's clearly superior, since it 1) removes the possibility of SDing during the RLD and 2) may make pseudodashing more practical. Both are awesome developments. I was able to pseudodash twice in five minutes of playing with the new technique, versus 4 or so times in the entire rest of my Smash career (lol).

 

[-ACE-]

Feels awkward to me also this early on but I'm using this newfound mechanic of wavelanding whenever possible.

Bet it works with falcon's dj too, he just doesn't have the gimme spacing so it's much more impractical lol.

 

[Swagic]

PERFECT. Right as I was just figuring out how to RLD consitently, too. Thank you, sir.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

O Oldiz sick find dude. Now you all have no excuse for not RLD'ing.

I'm going to have to unlearn everything I currently know about RLD, but the fact that you don't SD is huge.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

What do you ban?

depends on who i'm playing against. vs zang i ban stadium. vs westballz i ban yoshis.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

wow oldiz. can i pls suck ur dyick

 

[-ACE-]

Well, that escalated quickly.

 

[tm]

does ganon slide off just as quickly with that method?
undecided if I want to switch.

PROS:
if you mess up, you don't die

CONS:
it's a more difficult motion
might be slightly slower (needs checking)

INDIFFERENCES:
In theory, you should still die if you mess up like this (at least against 1/3 of the cast and a competent opponent)

I think I'd rather just become more consistent at the normal method and not worry about it, since it doesn't require frame perfection. I'm probably being a bit negative / underrating human error

 

[ForTheLulz]

I always found ledge tech pretty easy because I was accustomed to harder characters such as fox and falco before picking up my Ganon.

Though I do mess up many times because of mistiming. Gotta lab that out.

 

[Mr.Cochise]

I haven't learned to RLD yet. I'm very consistent at the ledgedash in my opinion along with some PR players opinions in my region.

 

[Swagic]

Is there any reason NOT to go out and hit a charging firefox/bird if it's in range? Watching Spidey vs Zidane "Diet Coke" from a few weeks ago and he just sat there and let the up-b charge and take off, then did a d-ftilt instead of just jumping out and hitting it, and many, many times at that. Is there a reason for that?

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Here's how I see it, tm. Not so humbly, I'm probably the most proficient at-the-ledge ganon, and even I will mess up occasionally in tournament and it'll cost me the stock. Theoretically, you should still die against fox, yes, but I don't really think that you'd necessarily die all the time just from being hit out of an air dodge, especially at 0% (whereas a 0% failed ledge dash death SUCKS).

I do agree with you on 2 things, though: the motion is definitely harder and I'm going to have to un-learn 4 years of my normal RLD tech. That... will suck lol. By all means, if what you're doing now works sufficiently, then no reason to change it.

And if it's slower, I'm definitely not doing it this way lol, though there's so little stage you're sliding on that it probably doesn't change much. But yea, a huge part of the RLD is the invincibility.

God damn, ganon is so broken from the ledge. Love it.

Swagic you got a link to an example so I can see what you're talking about? More than likely, zidane could have actually gotten around it or something. He's pretty damn good at the ganon matchup, so I don't see him firefoxing in ganon's range

 

[ForTheLulz]

Since peach has ****ty ledge options, I've been thinking about how to cover them.

I was thinking of timing ftilt on reaction to ledge getup to cover getup attack, regular getup, and jump from ledge, and then grabbing to cover roll in from stage.
Would that work?

 

[tm]

Is there any reason NOT to go out and hit a charging firefox/bird if it's in range? Watching Spidey vs Zidane "Diet Coke" from a few weeks ago and he just sat there and let the up-b charge and take off, then did a d-ftilt instead of just jumping out and hitting it, and many, many times at that. Is there a reason for that?

If you can easily jump out and hit it on reaction to the fire starting up, then yeah you should pretty much always go for it. If someone doesn't, it's either because they can't reach it or they didn't react fast enough (or they bad lul)

Nice thoughts joe

 

[Oldiz]

does ganon slide off just as quickly with that method?
undecided if I want to switch.

PROS:
if you mess up, you don't die

CONS:
it's a more difficult motion
might be slightly slower (needs checking)

INDIFFERENCES:
In theory, you should still die if you mess up like this (at least against 1/3 of the cast and a competent opponent)

I think I'd rather just become more consistent at the normal method and not worry about it, since it doesn't require frame perfection. I'm probably being a bit negative / underrating human error

It's probably the same, you only spend like one frame onstage either way. Someone needs to TAS ganon on the edge.
Also, it's very much possible to waveland in place with airdodge upwards, but it might be more strict spacing. I've never done it from ledge, but it's doable on platforms, doesn't accomplish much though.
And one more thing, does the tech need a name?

 

[-ACE-]

might be slightly slower (needs checking)

Ledgedash with or goes the same distance as holding the stick sideways, makes me think it's the same.

 

[Swagic]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLdXeDqcxuW05XM4wggv1rkQbYkvbQ48r-&v=Mr-MZFVIq9w

This is the match that I'm talking about. The first example comes at 2:38ish, where he let it charge almost fully before going for an uair, when he had time for a fair. It happened a few times throughout, but that's the first one.

 

[-ACE-]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PLdXeDqcxuW05XM4wggv1rkQbYkvbQ48r-&v=Mr-MZFVIq9w

This is the match that I'm talking about. The first example comes at 2:38ish, where he let it charge almost fully before going for an uair, when he had time for a fair. It happened a few times throughout, but that's the first one.

Yeah he could have fair'd there even. Hardly anyone gives neutral game as much focus as a micro situation. If we were always reacting as fast as we do while chaingrabbing we could hit a lot more of those

 

[Swagic]

Yeah he could have fair'd there even. Hardly anyone gives neutral game as much focus as s micro situation. If we were always reacting as fast as we do while chaingrabbing we could hit a lot more of those

So those were just poor decisions, not trying to optimize? I'd kinda like to get his input on this.

 

[-ACE-]

So those were just poor decisions, not trying to optimize? I'd kinda like to get his input on this.

His uair was perfect considering when his situation awareness kicked in. But had he been a ready for the up-b sooner he could have fair'd, which yeah I'd say is optimal since it wouldn't require anything more than an edgehog (or bair someone that lands on Randall)

 

[Swagic]

So I'm coming to the end of the thread (I've read the whole damn thing finally) and I have a couple of random thoughts as I finish it-

1. Why has a "Ganon tech how to" guide not really been made? Things like RLD, NIL, inv regrab, edge cancels, etc, etc, etc. Just a place to compile all those things instead of having to reteach all those things.

2. Maybe a "how to get grabs"? Or maybe just discuss it for a bit. Ganon's optimization is going to require at least being able to threaten a cg, so we should be able to get that first grab. I know the most common are tomahawks, empty sh wl into grab, and Shield SDI/DI into grabs. But what about other things? Or even what shield DI is for new faces.

3. For such a momentum-based character with a crappy neutral, we never talk about it. I mean, sure, we talk about micro situations a lot, like u-ftilt for an anti-air or something like that, but we don't really talk about momentum much. For example, falco starts comboing you to hell, what do you do? (In b4 counterpick to Marth) Well, you can Shield DI or SDI things around to get out of it or get the grab. But how do you counter a super-rushdown Falco or a needle-tilt happy Sheik? And we all know (I hope) how important center stage is for controlling game flow, but why is it important? How does it control the flow? Why does holding center stage slow down a Falcon on Yoshi's who's running and jumping arouns on the platforms while you DD threateningly on the ground? I'm less concerned with WHAT works here and more with WHY things work, because that can lead easily into people having new ideas.

4. That matchup thread NEEDS to be updated.

Alright, that's all I have for now. Hopefully this leads to fruitful stuff.