Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Diosama]

I've also got a tourney on saturday. My pool's got 1 PR player, basically the Porkchops of Montreal. The next best guy is someone played yesterday night and barely lost. I can definitely beat him, but I need to know more about Luigi in order to do so. RedmanSSBM , would you mind going over my set again? It's a different player, but I'm gonna need all the knowledge I can get. If I beat him, I make top 32 for sure.

 

[-ACE-]

Are we really arguing nair over fair?

Not sure if I'm needed here.

 

[Oldiz]

I cry each time I hit a fair because they are still right next to me.

 

[-ACE-]

I cry each time I hit a fair because they are still right next to me.

Fair them again! lol.

If you hit a late fair on falcon at low%, immediate uair scoop. This even works on NTSC at low% and survival DI, so it's better with PAL. I can't even imagine the (multiple) untechable stomp setups.

 

[F. Stein]

Dude, Wyoming isn't midwest.

Yes it is... I think I know which region I live in lol. Our regional tournament was listed in midwest here on smashboards when we had it too. I don't see what else we could be, we are right next to Nebraska not anywhere near north enough to be part of the region with Canada, i'm no where near the pacific west. Wyoming is midwest just like montana and Nebraska.

Description on the Midwest board says from Ohio all the way west to montana and wyoming is directly south of montana lol. With as far north as I am I can't imagine being classified as southwest.

 

[-ACE-]

The Midwest is like a country. Most boring interstates ftw

 

[F. Stein]

No kidding lol.

So, my options after D-throw have been pretty solid lately on spaceys. D-throw on Marth and Jiggs, I'm guessing that should always be Uair land?

 

[Diosama]

Against Marth, upair or bair depending on their DI. Dthrow > bair at higher percents is almost a guaranteed kill. There is a sweet percent where you can dthrow > fair jiggs, but I don't have it off the top of my head.

 

[-ACE-]

Dthrow on jiggs lands you uair/bair at low%, usmash around 65 iirc (DI dependent). Higher than that you can aerial but space it! It can mean dthrow to get rested lol.

 

[WoK_a^2]

Hey could I have my set with CTL critiqued?

https://youtu.be/97U6w6VDO3o

He was somewhat sandbagging and styling obviously but I think I still played pretty smartly aside from that. A couple of technical errors (I already nknow I up outt of shield too much but it's my special).

Also I was post pop/mole johns first game after coming back to the venue during GFs

 

[WoK_a^2]

Hey could I have this set with CTL critiqued?

He was obviously sandbagging and styliign but I feel I still palyed smartly and was trying hard.
I know I up b out of shield too much already, and I was post pop/mole haha

Also apologies for no sound idk what happened

 

[-ACE-]

Drank too much tonight, expect no review from me LOL

 

[Swagic]

Yes it is... I think I know which region I live in lol. Our regional tournament was listed in midwest here on smashboards when we had it too. I don't see what else we could be, we are right next to Nebraska not anywhere near north enough to be part of the region with Canada, i'm no where near the pacific west. Wyoming is midwest just like montana and Nebraska.

Description on the Midwest board says from Ohio all the way west to montana and wyoming is directly south of montana lol. With as far north as I am I can't imagine being classified as southwest.

As far as smash regions go, then yeah, midwest makes sense. Geographically, I thought Wyoming, Colorado, Montano, Idaho, Utah, and Nevada were all their own region, the Rockies (or something like that). And yeah, I-70 and Route 66 are THE most boring thing in the world to drive through.

Anyways, hoping to have some vids up for analysis by next week. Also, should I bother getting into netplay?

 

[F. Stein]

Ooooh gotcha, #YouMeantTimeZones

I'll have some vids up after saturday too, 30 man tournament. I'll be doing lots of recording hopefully. Netplay sounds like it is supposed to be good but i've heard that lag kills it a lot.

 

[Waldoring]

Netplay is great so long as there are people with <50 ping to you. Playing on a 2 or 3 frame buffer certainly isn't great, but practice against real players is much better than anything you can get out of 20XX.

 

[-ACE-]

Netplay will obviously help your reads. And make chaingrabbing spacies impossible.

 

[Swagic]

Netplay will obviously help your reads. And make chaingrabbing spacies impossible.

Well, damn. I've been putting almost an hour a day into working on fox's chaingrab on 20xx. Guess I'll have to find a new way to win.

 

[-ACE-]

Well, damn. I've been putting almost an hour a day into working on fox's chaingrab on 20xx. Guess I'll have to find a new way to win.

Not saying impossible, because, that's one Hell of a word, but yeah, reacting to DI is ridiculously hard with only a few frames of lag. That's just the spacies chaingrab anyway, other chaingrabs are good and you can still techchase then like there's no tomorrow

 

[Swagic]

Not saying impossible, because, that's one Hell of a word, but yeah, reacting to DI is ridiculously hard with only a few frames of lag. That's just the spacies chaingrab anyway, other chaingrabs are good and you can still techchase then like there's no tomorrow

So Sheik is still free after a grab then? I may need to test this... Met a guy going from 4 to melee and he picked up Sheik for the first time... **** SCRUB SHEIKS.

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah you should be ok vs sheik. Turnaround grab for DI behind. Although ive missed a turnaround grab on DI behind at 28% (once, and my input may have been late) turnaround grab is essentially good till 40% before dthrow. You can start dash +jc grabbing at that percent and up to be extra safe. But of course, that particular part might be hard on netplay.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Hi! I'm a new face, from Georgia. Probably the most significant thing you missed was BizzaroFlame's recent retirement. : (

Actually I didn't miss that and I've been discussing it pretty heavily over on my twitter and ask.fm accounts.
http://twitter.com/eikelmannrus
http://ask.fm/eikelmann
for anyone interested

I'm definitely new, Midwest Ganon they only play marth and spaceys here lol

Nice! How far are you from Cheyenne? I'll keep you in mind since it's so close to where I am.

guys plz stop talking about nair. plz.

 

[F. Stein]

Actually I didn't miss that and I've been discussing it pretty heavily over on my twitter and ask.fm accounts.
http://twitter.com/eikelmannrus
http://ask.fm/eikelmann
for anyone interested

Nice! How far are you from Cheyenne? I'll keep you in mind since it's so close to where I am.

guys plz stop talking about nair. plz.

Oh wow, I had no idea... that you lived in CO lol. I live in Laramie, that's like 30 minutes west of Cheyenne. Like.... wow. Small world.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Oh wow, I had no idea... that you lived in CO lol. I live in Laramie, that's like 30 minutes west of Cheyenne. Like.... wow. Small world.

We will meet and play copious amounts of Ganondorf mirrors.

 

[F. Stein]

We will meet and play copious amounts of Ganondorf mirrors.

Oh hell yes, I'm the third pillarof power up in this fresh scene, straight ganon main. I could use any help I can get lol. Right now we're coming off our month break where I had been locked out by a falco and a peach. So hopefully saturday brings good results.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

got my laptop back up again. i work 70+ hours a week now and so i need something to fill the void during what free time i have. really hoping to be more active on here again.

what have i missed? who are the new faces here?

Sup Ian. I'm still around. I'm definitely interested in collaborating on that Ganon guide by the way.

Something I've been experimenting with loosely but not enough to reach a conclusion.

A lot of times when I have someone cornered near ledge, if I jab their shield, I've been trying to go directly into pivot bair (spaced). This is pretty damn safe, I just don't know exactly how safe.

The bair is near-fp on his shield, then near-fp fastfalled for the AC. Then, I'll immediately pivot retreating uair scoop them.

So, jab, bair, uair.

If anything hits them they are offstage, and although there are punishable holes in this (how big??) I think it's good. Imagine the aerials spaced well. They seem to hit right when ppl tend to drop their shield (bair catches their punish attempt after shielding your jab). If they shield it all, remember the uair is retreating and you can dj after.

^^ ANYONE BORED 20XX TEST THIS PLEEEZ

*** and if they get used to instant uair after the AC bair, AC bair to grab them.

Jab is -14 on shield, as in Ganon is in lag for 14 frames after jab shield stun ends, so I definitely don't think even the best spaced jab is going to be safe on shield. Like ever rofl. Curse you Ganon and your terrible ending lag on all your ground moves.

I've also got a tourney on saturday. My pool's got 1 PR player, basically the Porkchops of Montreal. The next best guy is someone played yesterday night and barely lost. I can definitely beat him, but I need to know more about Luigi in order to do so. RedmanSSBM , would you mind going over my set again? It's a different player, but I'm gonna need all the knowledge I can get. If I beat him, I make top 32 for sure.

Just don't do the dumb things that you did last time that I mentioned. Don't side-b or down-b in neutral, go for more grabs, and upair after every downthrow cause Luigi can't nair in time. Edgeguard Luigi using upairs if bair won't kill. Grab ledge and ledgehop upair to cut options off of luigi recovering.

Also watch this set:

Hey could I have my set with CTL critiqued?

https://youtu.be/97U6w6VDO3o

He was somewhat sandbagging and styling obviously but I think I still played pretty smartly aside from that. A couple of technical errors (I already nknow I up outt of shield too much but it's my special).

Also I was post pop/mole johns first game after coming back to the venue during GFs

For a dude trying to disrespect you it looks like he needs to work on knowing how to do it right before trying that again LOL.

Your movement is looking pretty okay, but you need to get better at doing those wavelands on platforms. It looked like you were angling your airdodge down into the platforms instead of trying to horizontally waveland off of it and get more distance. Also your wavedashing could be much better by having perfect angles and making sure you airdodge on the first frame you're airborne so you actually just stay on the ground.

I do like the edgeguarding on both Luigi and Falcon when you used upair. You used it right pretty much every time you tried it against Luigi and you had some slight mis-timings on Falcon but you'll get the hang of that soon, good stuff.

I definitely want to see more grabs though. Luigi would run up and Shield and you'd try to attack every time. Just grab that **** and show him who's boss.

EDIT: Also PLEASE CC THOSE NAIRS FROM FALCON AT LOW PERCENT. Very crucial thing to do because CCing nairs makes that move basically useless for Falcon to use against you until 37%


---


Yeah Multi-Quote is cool.

 

[-ACE-]

RedmanSSBM well jab isn't safe on hit either until mid%, but it's still good. The bair catches them off guard. Lots of people continue to shield expecting you to spam another jab, or drop shield a tad late.

How about the AC bair to uair scoop?

 

[-ACE-]

Randomly found an example

http://youtu.be/BALPdfF_OCM

2:50

"but if ganondorf is going to get anywhere, there needs to be a complete revolution about how ganondorf is played similar to 20GX."

Just read that tweet Ian. IT'S CALLED 20GT YOO NOOB

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Randomly found an example

http://youtu.be/BALPdfF_OCM

2:50

"but if ganondorf is going to get anywhere, there needs to be a complete revolution about how ganondorf is played similar to 20GX."

Just read that tweet Ian. IT'S CALLED 20GT YOO NOOB

lol i assumed that was just a meme/mockery of 20gx. what does 20gt encompass and teach? what are we pioneering and pushing in the ganondorf metagame with 20gt?

 

[-ACE-]

A MOCKERY?!?!?!

That's it. MOONEY MATCH.

Lol. Optimal grab punishes (with option-select mentality), chaingrabs, NIL and shield drop applications, untechable stomp... Other stuff too. This thread isn't just spam. But you'd have to read some to find out

 

[-ACE-]

"i feel there aren't any good ganondorf guides out there right now."

Good God Ian. Thanks bruh

LOL

Also, linguini and spider_sense exist.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I wouldn't go as far as saying there aren't any good guides. But we don't really have our **** together lol.

Also interesting comment on what 20GT encompasses. I remember distinctly listening to gravy talk about specific aspects of falcon he wanted to optimize. I think we have ideas, but I think we need to make it more clear what we want to achieve.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

"i feel there aren't any good ganondorf guides out there right now."

Good God Ian. Thanks bruh

LOL

Also, linguini and spider_sense exist.

did you make a full length guide??? i haven't seen any. the only one i saw was the one bizz made lol

linguini and spider sense barely exist. they're confined to south florida and they never travel. what videos they do appear in are against the same playstyles and offers little to the development of our character. while i agree that they're the best chance of improving our character next to guys like tm and pseudo, they need to travel for it to mean anything imo. going to versus locals isn't going to cut it, and quite frankly i'm inclined to assume that they just don't care enough, or are too busy to do so.

i've been holding off on offering my opinions for a while, but i decided speaking my mind is probably within our best interests. any criticism on my thoughts is welcomed.

 

[Masteroki]

Tipman ma

did you make a full length guide??? i haven't seen any. the only one i saw was the one bizz made lol

linguini and spider sense barely exist. they're confined to south florida and they never travel. what videos they do appear in are against the same playstyles and offers little to the development of our character. while i agree that they're the best chance of improving our character next to guys like tm and pseudo, they need to travel for it to mean anything imo. going to versus locals isn't going to cut it, and quite frankly i'm inclined to assume that they just don't care enough, or are too busy to do so.

i've been holding off on offering my opinions for a while, but i decided speaking my mind is probably within our best interests. any criticism on my thoughts is welcomed.

Tipman made a guide back in 05 I think and it's still extremely applicable, the thing about melee is that there are no updates/patches so a lot of people don't bother making guides every year. Game stays the same but the meta is always being pushed to a higher level. With that being said, I think watching vids of high level Ganon is enough information I need as compared to remaking guides every so often.

 

[-ACE-]

did you make a full length guide??? i haven't seen any. the only one i saw was the one bizz made lol

linguini and spider sense barely exist. they're confined to south florida and they never travel. what videos they do appear in are against the same playstyles and offers little to the development of our character. while i agree that they're the best chance of improving our character next to guys like tm and pseudo, they need to travel for it to mean anything imo. going to versus locals isn't going to cut it, and quite frankly i'm inclined to assume that they just don't care enough, or are too busy to do so.

i've been holding off on offering my opinions for a while, but i decided speaking my mind is probably within our best interests. any criticism on my thoughts is welcomed.

Is my techchasing guide simply a decent post to you? Have you even seen it? I haven't seen you or bizz delve into metagame/theory that extensively, ever.

Spider_sense went to Evo and goes to CEO/STR... Linguini may have a chance at being sponsored soon. It's just comical that you automatically count them out when they are easily on your level. You could learn a good bit from them still. I just don't think you like other Ganons getting attention, especially from SFL. Lol

 

[F. Stein]

So is Spider_Sense or any of you guys planning on coming to Evo this year?

I think Tipman's guide is still really useful too, same with Ace's punish guide. I took a picture of that and Magus' chain grab percentages that I consult before any set. I'm probably not the best at punishing but I'm making that conscious effort to think about it in game. Linguini being sponsored would be so awesome to see.

I would also agree that we don't really need a new guide every year. I've been making my own personal guide more than anything so that I can pull from everyone I see and figure out a lot of the micro game that I struggle with. Isn't having a personal playbook more adviseable than sinking weeks into making all encompassing guides all the time anyways?

 

[Coastward]

canadian dollar has royally ****ed my EVO plans so i probably wont go.

 

[F. Stein]

A bunch of people from my scene are wanting to carpool and make a tirp out of it so if you can get partway, here, then it may get significantly cheaper lol. Idk where you are traveling from specifically.

 

[-ACE-]

Honestly Magus's chaingrabbing guide is up there with the greatest contributions to the Ganon Meta ever, and one of the few topics that doesn't really become outdated (techchasing is halfway like this).

I'll agree that a super extensive guide of every matchup would help, but one would have to thoroughly describe a ton of micro-situations since spacing matters so much. A master CC/ASDI counter thread would also be good, outlining when ASDI grabs/tilts etc work and at what spacing as well (and also explore specific DI angles to create new options at certain percents). Other than that, we're really not that bad. My edgeguarding thread has needed some work for a while but it's still really good in my unbiased opinion. But the rest is kind of hard to describe. Perfect spacing is huge for Ganon, and obviously hard at times to put into words.

F. Stein I've been talking to SS about it. Either that or pound, or both, lol. Maybe tampa in 3 weeks too.

Coastward isn't it down to like $0.70 US now? Suuuucks. Hopefully you got this. Fakku hook it up lol

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Coastward @Divinokage you guys are some lucky mother****ers because you get to play with coffeeblack whenever you want to. Some of the most fun friendlies I've ever played were vs that dude. Just a random thought.

Magus's chain grab guide was and still is the ****. If ganons could actually cg spacies, the meta would be different. Way different. I wish I didn't suck complete ass at chain grabbing lmfao.

Dave, that edge guard thread is THE ****. I'm gonna put in my request to bring that bad boy back from the grave. I may write some **** down for Samus / DK / yoshi etc. you know, stuff that hasn't been covered as thoroughly, but weird ass characters that ripple plays, so I somehow have exp lmao.

 

[Masteroki]

Is there footage of a 0-death chaingrab on a spacie? I can hardly get 3 consecutive grabs let alone cg-ing them to death