Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[-ACE-]

http://youtu.be/hTgB3wEbZ9c

 

[F. Stein]

Beautiful example of chain grab to death, I'm guessing the falco had choice words for you? lol

I'm still practicing the smash turn around for low percents but I'm starting to get there. I get at least 4 regrabs and then switch to something else like a stomp so i don't screw up lol.

 

[-ACE-]

That's magus not me. I've done that though a few times (i usually just techchase when he's that low, even though I do attempt the cg fairly often). I've done it many, many more times when they're at 50%.

 

[Diosama]

canadian dollar has royally ****ed my EVO plans so i probably wont go.

Same, although I think that's a big investment for me considering I've been playing for under a year. I'll be at GOML if I can ride with some montreal peeps.

 

[DCW]

Nothing but respect to Magus, ACE, et al for their great guides. As a beginner I've found them very helpful. Unfortunately, I think much of Ganon's info is still scattered all over these boards, despite their efforts.

Take MUs, for instance. Every matchup has been talked about in depth, but those discussions are scattered everywhere, except for the edgeguarding part of it. The same is true for so many things about Ganon: instead of going to a few stickied guides whenever a beginner is baffled in a MU, he/she must search through 600 pages of forum posts to find this stuff.

RedmanSSBM what sort of guide are you interested in making? An all-encompassing one? If you consider making any kind of guide, check out this Fox guide. I really like the format overall, especially of the MU analyses.

------------------------------------------------------------

Also, I have a question. It has a long intro, so stick with me.

Most of the time we talk about how to play Ganon on a medium to small scale. For instance, talking about a certain method like CGing Fox or uses for sh ff WL would be a small-scale discussion of how to play Ganon. It's limited to a certain matchup or a special situation. Medium scale analysis focuses on issues which transcend a single matchup but are still limited to a limited portion of the character that is Ganon. Medium scale would be something like talking about Ganon's best stages, the uses of fair, or optimizing his recovery.

I feel like I've learned a lot on these small and medium scales, but my understanding of Ganon is lacking on a macro level. This most general level of understanding of how to play Ganon would concern not on a certain aspect of playing Ganon--special techniques, stage choices, single moves, or individual characters--but on playing Ganon as a whole, the general approach/philosophy that one should take to playing Ganon. I don't mean any player's personal approach, but what they think is the correct approach. (If those two perfectly coincide, congratulations!) So, can anyone help me out with this? Top players, theorycrafters, whoever. If someone or multiple people could give an in-depth response to my question, that would be great. Usually having multiple players' perspectives helps.

 

[F. Stein]

General approach = become the king of evil, punch the triforce of power into their face and walk over their battered bodies to your victory with boiling aggression and rage.

lol become the ganon.

Anyways, did some practicing today and oml, i never realized how important reads are in the IC matchup. I had an IC and a Puff main over today that lost in succession several times then they both started taking me to dreamland and FD and playing really really slow and campy. I lost a few matches because I started getting annoyed and running in lol. If those two play defensively everything sucks. Any tips for if a Puff or an IC decides to play super safe and WD away from everything?

 

[-ACE-]

F. Stein sh perfect wL, and perfect wavelands in general beat camping. In today's meta aerials are generally expected. Something as simple as wL away when you "know" they expect you to fair can really bait them. And perfect wavelands are great for acquiring space quickly. Obviously spacing is crucial against climbers. Fully spaced, absolute tipper fair is generally safe, as in, it doesn't get punished much even at top level. Same with horizontal tipper dair (more shield stun). If you hit a dair at 0%, dsmash in the direction they DI. Dair to dsmash wrecks climbers that aren't ready (both hits plus free uair = possible KO setup). Those that are ready can escape the second hit of the dsmash. Remember when someone camps they surrender space, and it's much easier to corner them. If you can acquire space safely (often little by little) without over-committing, you can drastically reduce one's options AND they're close to ledge. Kill nana.

Puff is even more frustrating LOL. Nothing but neutral game.

 

[Bwmat]

Ugh puff. I think I'm just going to go shiek & fox against puff in the future.

Ic's get bopped by falcon & ganon, just have to avoid getting grabbed.

 

[-ACE-]

Puffs a tough matchup for sheik. But Plup is insane at it

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Is my techchasing guide simply a decent post to you? Have you even seen it? I haven't seen you or bizz delve into metagame/theory that extensively, ever.

Spider_sense went to Evo and goes to CEO/STR... Linguini may have a chance at being sponsored soon. It's just comical that you automatically count them out when they are easily on your level. You could learn a good bit from them still. I just don't think you like other Ganons getting attention, especially from SFL. Lol

...i guess that guide slipped my mind ): truthfully when i think of a guide i think of something that encompasses tons of areas though. i don't delve into metagame discussion much because i know my thoughts are probably pretty radical in comparison to most. but i guess i'll try jumping in from now on regardless of the responses.

going to ceo and evo last year was good on jason's part, but that's in the entirety of the year. traveling out of state should happen every 6 months at the very least. linguini travels even less than him though. do you see where i'm coming from at least? learning from them isn't necessarily my point. i learn from ganondorfs of all skill levels. i was saying that they aren't very active outside of their state. tbh all four of them could travel more probably.

i'm not from florida anymore nor do i even compete enough for that to be an issue. :/ if ganondorf is getting positive attention, that's really all that matters in the end.

 

[-ACE-]

It's just crazy that the guy that quit is calling someone inactive that fought the moon in tournament a few nights ago lol. Being "active" has always been such a touchy subject for you. Good Ganon play on any stream helps push Ganon. It doesn't have to be out of state.

 

[Diosama]

Calm down ladies, let's be civil about this.

ACE, I've been meaning to ask you, what is the point of RLD?

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

It's just crazy that the guy that quit is calling someone inactive that fought the moon in tournament a few nights ago lol. Being "active" has always been such a touchy subject for you. Good Ganon play on any stream helps push Ganon. It doesn't have to be out of state.

the moon? wtf how
are there any vids on youtube yet?
i don't remember if i used the exact words "inactive" more so that i was discussing how they don't leave the area very often.

i just think it would be more helpful to get vids of them vs different playstyles and characters. which can be obtained via traveling, you know?

 

[-ACE-]

RLD has a LOT of uses lol. RLD to offstage bair/uair is underused. Imagine a ledgehop uair or bair with more range. You can grab ledge after the bair too. There's the pseudo dash (plus its several applications), and all the on-stage applications. Once someone expects you to ledgedash, you can start using ledgehop options. Once they're expecting that, they're easily baited and punished by RLD fair. RLD dair has uses obviously but you have to know it will hit. RLD by itself is a good mindgame (use another ledge option immediately after).

 

[-ACE-]

the moon? wtf how
are there any vids on youtube yet?
i don't remember if i used the exact words "inactive" more so that i was discussing how they don't leave the area very often.

i just think it would be more helpful to get vids of them vs different playstyles and characters. which can be obtained via traveling, you know?

I agree Ian. Lol. Told you you missed everything bro. Check YouTube!

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

I agree Ian. Lol. Told you you missed everything bro. Check YouTube!

did he beat the moon omg

 

[-ACE-]

did he beat the moon omg

No he played below average (even with rust) and it was still a "close" 3-0.

Last stock every time. Moon was mad cocky in the after interview too lol

I missed my chance. Moon trolled about when he was coming from what I hear. Tipman had plans to come out too, we thought it was this Sunday.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

RedmanSSBM well jab isn't safe on hit either until mid%, but it's still good. The bair catches them off guard. Lots of people continue to shield expecting you to spam another jab, or drop shield a tad late.

How about the AC bair to uair scoop?

Just tried this in 20XX. It's significantly more frames that Fox or a spacie can be given to act out of their shield even if you're spaced perfectly and do the moves frame perfectly. The reason the upair hits Remen in the example clip you showed is because he stayed in his shield for longer than he needed to. If he would have daired out of shield immediately after the shield stun wore off, I'm pretty sure that would have stuffed the upair. Basically from what I can see, hits on people going out of shield like that are because of hesitation and lack of comfort/knowledge of countering Ganon's "shield pressure." Colbol would wavedash out of shield and shine that **** so fast it's not even funny, I bet.

RedmanSSBM what sort of guide are you interested in making? An all-encompassing one? If you consider making any kind of guide, check out this Fox guide. I really like the format overall, especially of the MU analyses.

Yeah I was thinking of something along the lines of that exact guide actually. Going into super detail about everything that character has to offer and providing visuals so that the reader can learn more easily from it.

I'd call it "The Unholy Bible of Ganon"

 

[Swagic]

Snippety snip snip snipper snip

I personally think Ganon should work best (in theory, at least) as a defendive/tanking character. He DEFINITELY doesn't have the speed of the spacies or Sheik in approaches, and his very limited options make those few approaches very predictable. He excels in two main areas- edgeguarding and punishing. Chaingrabbing in theory, but that's... We'll leave that by the side.

Ganon has FANTASTIC CC abilities, great options for getting back onstage from the ledge, the Tipman/Eddie spike, the WF spike, dair spike, bair, fair, arguably even nair, ftilt, dtilt, jab, and maybe even utilt for edgeguarding (wait... That's literally every move except side-b, up-b, and WP). Frame 3 jab can stuff approaches pretty well, up angled ftilt stops things, shield drop aerials are pressure releases and sometimes edgeguard opportunities, best roll in the game... Ganon is built to be played campy and defensive (ish).

One thing for certain is that Ganon is not a rushdown character. While there are some playstyles he counters well by rushing in, for the most part, baiting and punishing approaches is his specialty. The problem is that fairing people in the face is just TOO fun and it's hard to stop. And after looking up to Bizz, Spidey, Pseudo, and Eikelmann with their slippery Ganons for so long, slowing Ganon down is a bit... Counterintuitive. But I think that needs to be the next step in the macro stage of the meta:

How to control the pace of a match

Those of you with experience can probably do this much better than I. I just know that watching all your matches, you do best when the match moves at your pace and lose more when the match is moving too quickly or slowly.

Yeah, I know I'm new, but you guys are usually pretty good about at least considering what the new guy has to say.

Also, yes, there really should be a "Ganon tips and tricks" guide. 600 pages of forums, while VERY enlightening, is really not a reasonable task to ask of newcomers.

 

[Coastward]

@PseudoTurtle yea coffeeblack is the mega homie rofl

 

[-ACE-]

The reason the upair hits Remen in the example clip you showed is because he stayed in his shield for longer than he needed to.

Fully aware. Sucks it "doesn't work", but I've gotten ko's on porkchops with it as a mixup. I'll have to continue to **** with it some.

And also, when I brought this up initially, I didn't mean vs spacies, really a mixup vs any character. I just happened to see that in that video and posted it.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

No he played below average (even with rust) and it was still a "close" 3-0.

Last stock every time. Moon was mad cocky in the after interview too lol

I missed my chance. Moon trolled about when he was coming from what I hear. Tipman had plans to come out too, we thought it was this Sunday.

Yeah he and dj nintendo just go around and troll locals. At one of our weeklies, they both got into grands and then proceeded to play bowser and pikachu and some other jank matchups lol

 

[-ACE-]

Loli think I saw that set. Linguini + Blea would have never let moon + uuaa win teams, but they dropped out when they found out there wasn't any money for doubles. Sucks how SFL lost too lmao. Game 5 GF's.... Eliott and saucy tho were both at kill% and moon was fox low%. 2v1 but he just bair'd them both ftw LOL (bair iirc).

 

[-ACE-]

Nair has uses.

http://youtu.be/ORueALHUjTQ

 

[F. Stein]

My region is growing finally. 35 entrants at my local. Met our equivalent of a bizz kid too lol. Ditto went better this time. 2 0 fourstocked. I'm over my ditto fear lol

 

[-ACE-]

My region is growing finally. 35 entrants at my local. Met our equivalent of a bizz kid too lol. Ditto went better this time. 2 0 fourstocked. I'm over my ditto fear lol

Gotem .

 

[Coastward]

i realized how easy the ditto is last saturday - all you have to do is uair and you win.

 

[-ACE-]

i realized how easy the ditto is last saturday - all you have to do is uair and you win.

Next comes the meta where the uair is expected.

 

[F. Stein]

Well I made it to winners finals. Got knocked out by a falco, close games all of them going to see if I can bring it back through losers.

 

[Diosama]

Good news, bad news.

Good news: I beat the good luigi player in my pool
Bad news: I lost a close ditto to someone else

We ended up tied in total games but because he won the set, I didn't get into top 32. Afterwards, I placed 9th in the amateur bracket.

Feeling good all things considered, can see my improvement.

 

[-ACE-]

http://youtu.be/LHD779p92D4

 

[F. Stein]

Blast it Ace, some days I love the **** you post.

Anyways. I placed 3rd tonight out of 35. I'll get video links soon so I can try to get some improvement going but I feel like I'm not getting anywhere some days lol. I got booted out of my chance for grand finals by a captain falcon. He literally just dashdanced the entire time and crossed up my shield. Stuffed any approach and made me wanna puke lol. I've never played vs a captain falcon before so I was at a loss, once again ignorance killed me xD

I'll ask for more specific advice when I get the videos up but I didn't get like fourstocked or anything and I started to adapt after game one so I don't feel like a complete loser. but god o-O that video is so accurate Ace, it's like he doesn't have to do anything but be a weasley little dash dancer and throw out knees.

Maybe I can go down and get some time with Eikleman soon, that would be encouraging. And I gotta learn how to wavedash out of shield under pressure, I couldn't do it to save my life today.

 

[Coastward]

http://youtu.be/LHD779p92D4

LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Ganon has a significantly better ground attack game than Falcon, in my opinion. Not only do most of Ganon's ground moves knock down way earlier than Falcon but a tippered ftilt on shield is pretty safe for Ganon because it reaches so far and doesn't have too much ending lag. Even dtilt in neutral I feel like is underused to scoop opponents off their feet. Sadly, I am to believe that ftilt is the only ground move that is actually close to being safe on an opponent's shield when spaced right. I often see this 'jab pressure' on people's shields from Ganon and it shouldn't really work... that move has a lot of lag, it's not meant to pressure shields lol. Jab is a great move for getting people off of you and using it as a quick counter to someone trying to move in on you. If you react well enough, a jab will beat a run up grab attempt, and I believe it clanks with many strong moves.

Also don't forget the importance of angling those ftilts. Up-angled ftilts are amazing anti air in many matchups, and the down-angled ftilt covers the low space in front of Ganon that many of his other moves can't reach. Just the simply fact that his ftilt knocks down so early makes his ground game pretty damn good. You could probably spam ftilt against a noob and have that be effective ROFL.

Oh, and back on the topic of shield pressure, Ganon doesn't have 'shield pressure' much like many other characters do. Other characters have good shield pressure because their moves end early and they can throw out another attack to minimize the window that the opponent can move out of shield. Ganon has shield pressure in a more psychological sense, in that if they are conditioned to shield your attacks (which is pretty safe for them most of the time), you can run up and grab them, or bait a spot-dodge or something. Then when your opponent starts catching on that you're trying to put them in their shield, they'll go a bit more offensive and use their shield less, or come out of it quicker, meaning that you can jab them or upair them for it or whatever. Ganon has some pretty decent mixups on shield and it's all about whether you swing or not.

An amazing bait it to short hop just out of their range to immediately attack you, but it's close enough for you to land an aerial, and instead of aerialing, you waveland behind them and just gran them in their shield. ****in gotem.

EDIT: Wait I forgot the most slept on ground move that Ganon has! Even I slept on it!

Do not disparage Ganon's DASH ATTACK. It knocks opponents down earlier than any of his other ground moves (except utilt but who uses that in neutral rofl).

Also I encourage people to use dsmash and upsmash in neutral sometimes, as the reward for landing these moves is immense. If you whiff, they both end pretty early so you can get away in time or jab them, and you can always ASDI down. In fact, if you just hold down and away when you're in the middle of a move, you option select both ASDI down and You'll DI throws correctly if you end up getting grabbed instead.

 

[Bwmat]

Played pretty well today, until the end. Got 3rd.
http://www.twitch.tv/vanstreetbattle/v/41474767

3:45 vs sheik (rekt)
3:57.24 vs falco
4:16.50 vs falco (mike li)

I'll update with the final two in a bit, only played ganon game 1 both sets since **** fox.

5:43.34 rekt by espi's fox, went falcon after first game
5:52.35 rekt by Dane's fox, went fox after first game

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Loli think I saw that set. Linguini + Blea would have never let moon + uuaa win teams, but they dropped out when they found out there wasn't any money for doubles. Sucks how SFL lost too lmao. Game 5 GF's.... Eliott and saucy tho were both at kill% and moon was fox low%. 2v1 but he just bair'd them both ftw LOL (bair iirc).

Yeah I was surprised no one took a game. When he invaded Boston this summer, he never managed to pull it out flawlessly like that. We even stopped him once thanks to mafia. I think it's just that we have constant exposure to good marths like him, zoso, and kdj back in the day. But FL is pretty dry on good Marths. So it was probably an experience and playstyle thing.

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah I was surprised no one took a game. When he invaded Boston this summer, he never managed to pull it out flawlessly like that. We even stopped him once thanks to mafia. I think it's just that we have constant exposure to good marths like him, zoso, and kdj back in the day. But FL is pretty dry on good Marths. So it was probably an experience and playstyle thing.

True, just wish me, spider_sense, tipman, Elliot, and zidane had played him. Moon might come by again soon from what I hear, maybe you'll get a better idea of what we can do then.

Edit: he didnt invade flawlessly, he lost a game to the second best peach in SFL.

PS you ever going to post your vids?

 

[Diosama]

Remember that upsmash also has IASA frames starting at 40. You can save as many as 14 frames if it whiffs.

Jab -> dash attack = da shiz

 

[-ACE-]

BTW, freaking Raffa was at tipman's house smashing yesterday. All that's missing from that room are Eddie and Joe bushman LOL.

OG ****

http://youtu.be/ps4aS9vHsnM

 

[X WaNtEd X]

True, just wish me, spider_sense, tipman, Elliot, and zidane had played him. Moon might come by again soon from what I hear, maybe you'll get a better idea of what we can do then.

Edit: he didnt invade flawlessly, he lost a game to the second best peach in SFL.

PS you ever going to post your vids?

Very soon. Almost done with my analysis. I wanted to do it along with regular practice, so it's taken longer.