Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Coastward]

Divinokage just did dair > reverse dash attack > reverse jab > bair roflllll

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Dude tommy did some sick **** vs shamunt on the poke rock transformation...I almost came

If I got sponsored if have the motivation to get better...and travel of course. See what you can do griceon.

Btw today is a big day for me, my new ep came out online; you can grab it here:

https://pro.beatport.com/release/comfort-zone/1691609

Peace!

Double hype. Definitely liked those tricks on Rock Transformation from Tipman. Dude knows so much ****.

Super hype about Linguini potentially getting a sponsor and taking the game seriously again

Also when is that full album coming out Linguini? February 22nd or something like that?

Looking forward to that.

 

[Divinokage]

Divinokage just did dair > reverse dash attack > reverse jab > bair roflllll

Well well.. another use for it.. might be the optimal one instead of Nair.

 

[Diosama]

Well well.. another use for it.. might be the optimal one instead of Nair.

Oh god, please don't use the N word in this thread.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Oh god, please don't use the N word in this thread.

NIL?

 

[Zigludo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkxZRFbB_io&feature=youtu.be

Does that double uair from the ledge always result in an SD, or did tommy just **** it up somehow? looks incredibly sick if it's possible

 

[Divinokage]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkxZRFbB_io&feature=youtu.be

Does that double uair from the ledge always result in an SD, or did tommy just **** it up somehow? looks incredibly sick if it's possible

Ya that doesnt work.. you can only do one if you drop uair from the ledge. But it could be something to do if you are in the lead and you want to end his last stock at high %.

 

[-ACE-]

You can runoff uair/wL offstage uair, and dj uair and make it back to ledge.... If that's what you mean.

0:42 was intentional suicide, he thought he was going to get shamunt also.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Double uair is sick. Works really well on falcon from my experience

 

[-ACE-]

I just want to remind everyone that reactionary play is very important. Don't make Ganon any more read-based than he already is. One example is after you land a hit, jumps are no longer the huge commitment that they are in neutral. Intelligent jumps do nothing but eliminate jumpsquat. You can guarantee a techchase if you put someone on a platform and do a perfectly spaced empty sh. This usually baits something and you can dj uair by reaction (much sooner than you could instant uair from the ground). Being able to wL Instead of aerial at the last instant is really big imo. Intelligent jump positioning is under-discussed.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Yeah knowing what works at what percent is key. Don't **** up the count.

 

[F. Stein]

So, i've only seen it happen once in a blue moon in any given tournament set. Is it possible to consistently tech Falco's Dair? It seems hard to tech for some reason and if Ganon does tech it what should the immediately response be after the wall jump?

 

[-ACE-]

So, i've only seen it happen once in a blue moon in any given tournament set. Is it possible to consistently tech Falco's Dair? It seems hard to tech for some reason and if Ganon does tech it what should the immediately response be after the wall jump?

Bair .

 

[DCW]

You can also do upB. That's what I always do.

 

[-ACE-]

You can also do upB. That's what I always do.

True, but bair becomes safe sooner than up-b does, percent wise. Neither are safe at low% unfortunately.

 

[DCW]

True, but bair becomes safe sooner than up-b does, percent wise. Neither are safe at low% unfortunately.

You're probably right. I just have the inputs for upB so fixed in my muscle memory that I can't bair when I try to. I should learn it, though.

 

[DCW]

I personally think Ganon should work best (in theory, at least) as a defendive/tanking character. He DEFINITELY doesn't have the speed of the spacies or Sheik in approaches, and his very limited options make those few approaches very predictable. He excels in two main areas- edgeguarding and punishing. Chaingrabbing in theory, but that's... We'll leave that by the side.

Ganon has FANTASTIC CC abilities, great options for getting back onstage from the ledge, the Tipman/Eddie spike, the WF spike, dair spike, bair, fair, arguably even nair, ftilt, dtilt, jab, and maybe even utilt for edgeguarding (wait... That's literally every move except side-b, up-b, and WP). Frame 3 jab can stuff approaches pretty well, up angled ftilt stops things, shield drop aerials are pressure releases and sometimes edgeguard opportunities, best roll in the game... Ganon is built to be played campy and defensive (ish).

One thing for certain is that Ganon is not a rushdown character. While there are some playstyles he counters well by rushing in, for the most part, baiting and punishing approaches is his specialty. The problem is that fairing people in the face is just TOO fun and it's hard to stop. And after looking up to Bizz, Spidey, Pseudo, and Eikelmann with their slippery Ganons for so long, slowing Ganon down is a bit... Counterintuitive. But I think that needs to be the next step in the macro stage of the meta:

How to control the pace of a match

Those of you with experience can probably do this much better than I. I just know that watching all your matches, you do best when the match moves at your pace and lose more when the match is moving too quickly or slowly.

Yeah, I know I'm new, but you guys are usually pretty good about at least considering what the new guy has to say.

Also, yes, there really should be a "Ganon tips and tricks" guide. 600 pages of forums, while VERY enlightening, is really not a reasonable task to ask of newcomers.

Thanks for the answer, Swagic . I think you may be right about bait and punish. -ACE- and others, do you see bait and punish as Ganon's main strategy in neutral, or something else?

Also, Swagic, where did you get that knockback info about Ganon's nair that you posted a while ago?

 

[-ACE-]

The bait and punish aspect of neutral game is always there. Zoning and stage control next: defending space and safely acquiring space.

Neutral game is kind of like a game of pong, where you always move according to how your opponent moves, avoiding collisions at angles where he could attack you quickly or with a disjointed hitbox, while promoting situations where you could easily space a uair/bair/tilt etc.

Your decisions should change according to your percent you have (would I get knocked offstage at this percent? Yes. I'll do something safer), what part of the stage you're on currently for defense (not leaving yourself open near ledge) and where the plats are for bait/punish (edge cancel opportunities, shield drop aerials).

Winning an exchange is most important (aka not getting hit), and the higher the level of play, the more you just have to take what you can get, but whenever possible, it's good to choose punishment options, even in neutral, that will more easily lead to a follow up than the safest option would. Recognition of situations is really big so you can make sound last moment decisions.

Overall, yeah Ganon is about bait and punish. And pressure.

 

[DCW]

What do you mean by pressure? I thought 1) Ganon was too slow to apply much pressure and 2) pressuring requires approaching, which Ganon shouldn't be doing.

 

[Diosama]

Pressure means you're threatening at all times. He does this naturally by having strong moves, and can be applied in 1 of 2 ways:

1) Wall
2) Movement

 

[-ACE-]

Cornering people. Like when you're in falco's face tossing out smart ftilts, jabs, and instant uairs, he has less safe options. Some matchups you're able to cut down their options this way, which is better than fighting over center stage all the time.

Winning an exchange from a neutral start is harder than when they've surrendered a decent amount of space.

 

[DCW]

Ok, that makes sense. So in general Ganon can't approach like many better characters, but he can control space and bait his opponent to make a punishable approach from a disadvantageous position. Would that be a fair, albeit extremely simple, summary of neutral?

While on the subject of neutral, vs Fox I've realized that when Fox is DDing and threatening to approach I usually throw out moves like retreating upair and retreating fair hoping they will hit, not on reaction but just soft reads. Linguini seems to do this a lot, but maybe he is reacting to subtleties I don't notice yet. The same goes for throwing out ftilts and jabs when he (Fox, not Linguini) is close and I think he might make a grounded approach. Basically I'm putting out hitboxes when I anticipate he might approach because it's hard to react to such quick approaches. Is that a safe / good strategy, or should I be doing those aerials and tilts only/mostly on reaction when he actually does come in, and when he isn't coming in just focus on my spacing using wavedashes and DDing?

 

[Diosama]

That was what I did until recently. You're basically just hoping your opponent runs into your moves. Smarter players will undoubtebly adapt to this, but that's the name of the game regardless. It works, just don't rely on it entirely.

 

[-ACE-]

Standing and tilting or even jabbing while Fox is in DD is really rolling the dice. He can bait out either and punish. It's a decent mixup of course, and as you get a better read in his habits your walls will get better.

Better to bait with wL/wd back into dd or safely take a plat and drop back down. Or you can flat out attack him while he's DD'ing if it makes sense. Perfect wL ftilt, especially out of an empty sh, can surprise even seasoned players.

 

[DCW]

So it sounds like the tilts and jabs, for the most part, should be reactions to approaches rather than reads of approaches. Does the same apply to fadeback sh and fh aerials? If so, I guess the moral of the story would be to rarely throw out moves in neutral, only when you intend them to connect with the opponent in a confirmed approach?

Pardon all the questions, but I have another. I saw you say in a post recently that jumping is a

 

[-ACE-]

You have to go off reads at some point, but the more you play reaction-based, the more of those tilts and jabs you'll land. Aerials can be the same thing basically when you AC a bair or uair. But you can fade those back/approach with them, so they are often safer.

Throwing out moves is fine as long as it's a planned bait, basically.

 

[DCW]

I.e. as long as you aren't leaving yourself vulnerable with it. Makes sense. Thanks for explaining. I was trying to do lots of fadeback aerials like Linguini does is his matches, but probably it wasn't working as well because he has a much better sense of when throwing out an aerial is safe.

 

[Swagic]

D DCW I got the knockback and hitbox info from the new SmashPad app (I strongly recommend it, by the way). After some use, though, I have noticed some of the information is off a little bit, and I think the Nair sweetspot is one of those things. That said, the scaling knockback of nair is correct. I've gotten reliable kills (as in every single time) on anyone upwards of about 115% (except Sheik... **** Sheik).

 

[-ACE-]

Linguini spaces his aerials at incredibly safe/baity distances according to exactly what his opponent is doing. A dash dance isn't just a dash dance. Fox's maximum length dd is actually really good. Any more and he'd be like a little falcon. It depends on what kind of dd they're doing and where they are in the dd sequence (are the running away or approaching?). It obviously also has to do with how quickly they are to punish the aerial and how they go about doing it. Sometimes a fox will rush in after you do a fair just because it's engrained in his head to punish Ganon's landing lag, and he'll even commit to his approach by the time it's too late. This is when you can usually punish them in some way. And in instances where you think they're lined up to approach your whiffed fair perfectly, that's where you wL back instead. If they hit you during L-cancel lag, if their approach isn't perfect you can often ASDI jab or grab them. If they're almost crossing you up, you can hold just under horizontal (like perfect wd positioning) and get more movement horizontally (get grabs like this). Nothing beats straight backwards in those particular situations but hitting that during hitlag is hard to do consistently.

There are times where I think he should wL more but he is so good at the micro-situations in shield, and regarding CC/ASDI mechanics that he does extremely well.

 

[-ACE-]

D DCW where in GA do you live?

 

[DCW]

Nice example.

I live in Athens, GA. (I go to UGA). I attend most of the Flashback monthlies in Atlanta, too.

 

[-ACE-]

Funny cause I think there's a small tourney in Macon the 3rd weekend of February and I could actually be there.

 

[-ACE-]

Btw I don't know how you guys ASDI grab but while holding the appropriate direction during hitlag (SDI) or before hitlag (ASDI) you can just begin holding R and hit A. Use it when you whiff approaches and get attacked blindly for it.

 

[DCW]

Funny cause I think there's a small tourney in Macon the 3rd weekend of February and I could actually be there.

I probably won't be able to come to the Macon one, unfortunately. If it turns out I can, I'll let you know!

I looked at the knockback data for Ganon today and played with the knockback formula, and it appears that second hit nair has more knockback than fair on Fox after 15% or so. In general, second hit nair has more knockback than fair at an earlier percent than bair does for all characters. [Edit: for example, I have heard that bair has more knockback than fair on Jigglypuff past 60% or something, but second hit nair exceeds fair's knockback sooner.] Is this well known? If not, I could provide data.

 

[-ACE-]

Nair has more kb than fair in any case?? You sure? I honestly don't know about super low%.

Bair surpasses fair on jiggs at 110, and 130-132 on the heaviest characters.

 

[DCW]

I may have my calculations wrong. I'll check them again and test it out in 20XX before I make any more claims. (Probably I'll do it this weekend.)

 

[Linguini]

Double hype. Definitely liked those tricks on Rock Transformation from Tipman. Dude knows so much ****.

Super hype about Linguini potentially getting a sponsor and taking the game seriously again

Also when is that full album coming out Linguini? February 22nd or something like that?

Looking forward to that.

Just this release for the near future. Probably have a two tracker coming out in a few months.

I hate how ganon's jab pushes off into nair on the ps rock transformation. If nair was quick it would set up for some tasty shenanigans. God nair is such ****, especially off stage lol

 

[-ACE-]

L Linguini I've died too many times spamming jab there.... Nair of doom lol

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

raffa was at tipmans house? what the **** kinda twilight zone **** is that lmaooooo

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Btw I don't know how you guys ASDI grab but while holding the appropriate direction during hitlag (SDI) or before hitlag (ASDI) you can just begin holding R and hit A. Use it when you whiff approaches and get attacked blindly for it.

I have found recently that jump-cancel grabbing out of crouch is more efficient for me than doing the shield grab method for some reason. I just feel like my input is read easier when I JC grab.

Just this release for the near future. Probably have a two tracker coming out in a few months.

Ah bummer. I was looking forward to a full album from ya. Well here's to one in the future at least.