Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Coastward]

Played pretty well today, until the end. Got 3rd.
http://www.twitch.tv/vanstreetbattle/v/41474767

3:45 vs sheik (rekt)
3:57.24 vs falco
4:16.50 vs falco (mike li)

I'll update with the final two in a bit, only played ganon game 1 both sets since **** fox.

5:43.34 rekt by espi's fox, went falcon after first game
5:52.35 rekt by Dane's fox, went fox after first game

you could have EASILY beaten espi's fox, thats the only match i watched.

you need to pick better moves to use to punish with and actually follow through with those punishes. you had tons of moments where you could have cleanly taken stocks if you had chosen another move but you either flubbed or didn't do anything at all. you gotta recognize situations and act accordingly with what the best reaction is - that comes with experience most of the time though but look back at that match and actually think about all of the different options you could have done when you were edgeguarding or when you had a grab.

i wanna go to vancouver now and whoop everyone.

 

[Bwmat]

Yeah I make a lot of bad decisions in the heat of the moment. Vancouver ain't that free though, they've had a lot of ganon practice thanks to me.

 

[DCW]

Played pretty well today, until the end. Got 3rd.
http://www.twitch.tv/vanstreetbattle/v/41474767

3:45 vs sheik (rekt)
3:57.24 vs falco
4:16.50 vs falco (mike li)

I'll update with the final two in a bit, only played ganon game 1 both sets since **** fox.

5:43.34 rekt by espi's fox, went falcon after first game
5:52.35 rekt by Dane's fox, went fox after first game

I agree with Coastward about a lot of missed edgeguards. Another area for attention might be your grounded movement. In your game vs. Espi, you rarely every dash danced or wavedashed. Instead you remained planted in one spot, then changed positions by jumping and possibly wavelanding. While grounded, you would mostly jab, grab, and do tilts to fend off an approach, while standing in the same spot. The problem with that strategy is that Fox is fast enough to come in during the landing lag of those moves if he knows your grounded position is going to remain constant. You need to keep moving around when grounded to win the spacing battle. The same problem appears in the Sheik and first Falco set, though less pronounced. WDing is Ganon's fastest grounded movement option. It gives him a burst of speed that he really needs.

 

[Divinokage]

Coastward Divinokage you guys are some lucky mother****ers because you get to play with coffeeblack whenever you want to. Some of the most fun friendlies I've ever played were vs that dude. Just a random thought.

Magus's chain grab guide was and still is the ****. If ganons could actually cg spacies, the meta would be different. Way different. I wish I didn't suck complete *** at chain grabbing lmfao.

Dave, that edge guard thread is THE ****. I'm gonna put in my request to bring that bad boy back from the grave. I may write some **** down for Samus / DK / yoshi etc. you know, stuff that hasn't been covered as thoroughly, but weird *** characters that ripple plays, so I somehow have exp lmao.

Definitely not, i dont get regular falcon practice at all. If anything im the one that gives falcon practice to everyone else lol. But right now Ryan Ford is in mtl so theres that. The players i face normally are chester, cemo, waz in finals no more, no less. That was the case for 2 years now.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

https://youtu.be/hXFMWLy6u0A

Me vs. Lemon.

I was and am doing a lot of experimentation with my play. Specifically, I'm trying to implement shield drops extensively for movement and for dropping aerials in neutral and for edgeguards. So you'll see a lot of stupid plays on my part as a result, but a lot of them worked out too. I think if I played safer I could've won this. Regardless, there's some things I struggle with in this matchup even when I'm playing normally. I can't figure out how to edgeguard doc. Lemon specifically will always cover the ledge with pills. Ik I can uair through them, but I always seem to mess up the spacing and timing when I do that. Maybe I should be going for fh uair more instead of wl off platform reverse uair. Anyway, enjoy.

 

[Divinokage]

This is not exactly a new tech but i realized how sick it is yesterday. Its when instead of punishing a forced no tech with fair, you do it with reverse dash attack. So to get that you need to hit the opponent by starting the dash attack on the opposite side so it'll carry him exactly where you did it. From there you can get a jab follow up or probably a quick aerial as well like uair or nair + you get corner control 100%.

Bizz said you can get a grab at low % too.

 

[F. Stein]

http://www.twitch.tv/wyosc/v/41525006

Best of 5 games

Winner's Semi's
Me vs a shiek 1:46 respect death for shiek at 1:56 ends at 1:57

And that's our top falco commenting in the background, trying to get a rise out of me by talking about bizz xD they know my playstyle is nothing like his so they always do that.

Winner's Finals
Me vs our top falco 2:47 ends at 2:56 I had a lead in game 3 and threw it away xD

Loser's Finals
Me vs a Captain Falcon.... I literally had no idea what to do in this matchup, finally started to understand in game 3 when it was too late lol. 3:47 and 3:57 was a moment where I finally saw my tech practice pay off, i felt like i could have won right after that if I didn't get impatient and throw out a wizard's foot in neutral. The set ends at 3:58

 

[-ACE-]

This is not exactly a new tech but i realized how sick it is yesterday. Its when instead of punishing a forced no tech with fair, you do it with reverse dash attack. So to get that you need to hit the opponent by starting the dash attack on the opposite side so it'll carry him exactly where you did it. From there you can get a jab follow up or probably a quick aerial as well like uair or nair + you get corner control 100%.

Bizz said you can get a grab at low % too.

Dash attack is sick!!! Weak dash attack can combo into strong dash attack too lol. People often aren't ready to DI.

 

[Waldoring]

Reverse dash attack in general seems like a really good setup against fastfallers; it sets up for grabs around 50-60%, fair starting around 75% (on fox). Not sure how you'd get it without a guaranteed missed tech, but a free fair/grab is basically a stock at those %s.

Note that full DI away pretty much eliminates all of your options past around 60%, but it's such a mixup that that shouldn't be a problem. Also, by that point, full DI away should put the other player offstage.

You can even chain reverse dash attacks together around ~65%, probably not all that useful though.

Here's a gfy of where reverse dash attack puts you at 60% with no DI: https://gfycat.com/BriefPassionateGreatargus
And here's 80%: https://gfycat.com/AllUnfoldedBlackwidowspider

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

I kinda agree with Eikelmann cause Linguini and Spider_Sense aren't even on PR so like only the Ganon's really know them, but, we can learn how to play Ganon from them atleast, not how to travel. This thread isn't called How to Wreck *****es With Traveling

 

[-ACE-]

If I've proven I can beat literally anyone in the region on a given day, I could care less about the rankings.

^^ linguini I'm sure. Lol.

Ian and you are officially the only 2 Floridans that don't see him and Jason as prominent.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

I'm the number 1 spider sense fan. At the same time tho, he's a hometown hero, I know he can push this character, but he's gotta get out of town yo. Same for Linguini, guy **** on porkchops

 

[-ACE-]

I'm not against travel obviously, it's just that when people act like they don't exist. People that knock down MIOM top 100 players regularly exist.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

You always with spider_sense, teach that boy how to take a flight, he got enough tech skill

 

[-ACE-]

Working on it bro. Not everything is as simple as it seems.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

Yell at him, like he's your son "JASON YOUR ALMOST 30 YRS OLD, GET OUTTA THE HOUSE"

 

[-ACE-]

Refer to my previous post.

 

[Swagic]

Just played some netplay for the first time- it's AWESOME.
Highlight of the day, playing on FD, Ganon ditto- 3 suicide WF spikes and a suicide dair spike for the win. Under a minute.

 

[-ACE-]

Just played some netplay for the first time- it's AWESOME.
Highlight of the day, playing on FD, Ganon ditto- 3 suicide WF spikes and a suicide dair spike for the win. Under a minute.

Way to book him a flight.






























To Gotem City.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

Yo that Gotem City **** is hilarious to me, who made it up?

 

[-ACE-]

Yo that Gotem City **** is hilarious to me, who made it up?

Rofl. That's an Ace original.

 

[F. Stein]

So if we could actually, as Ganons, chain grab perfectly in every matchup possible. To the point that one grab = maximum chain grab. What would that make our neutral look like? Would that significantly change how people deal with ganon?

 

[Divinokage]

Dash attack is sick!!! Weak dash attack can combo into strong dash attack too lol. People often aren't ready to DI.

Reverse dash attack doesnt seem DIable at first glance. Either way a follow up is guaranteed I think.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

This is not exactly a new tech but i realized how sick it is yesterday. Its when instead of punishing a forced no tech with fair, you do it with reverse dash attack. So to get that you need to hit the opponent by starting the dash attack on the opposite side so it'll carry him exactly where you did it. From there you can get a jab follow up or probably a quick aerial as well like uair or nair + you get corner control 100%.

Bizz said you can get a grab at low % too.

So what percents and positions do you think this would be a better alternative to fair? It would net you more damage. But that one fair could give you a really good edgeguard situation.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

If I've proven I can beat literally anyone in the region on a given day, I could care less about the rankings.

^^ linguini I'm sure. Lol.

Ian and you are officially the only 2 Floridans that don't see him and Jason as prominent.

I don't think he meant it like that. He just said that what we can learn from them is limited, and that their skill won't mean anything if they don't get out of the state. Both of those things are true. I learn a lot from the FL Ganons. But only seeing how they take down local people doesn't help me as much as watching Kage, Bizz, or Eikelmann fight a wider variety of playstyles at national and international events.

They also easily have the potential to do well at a modern national. Spider Sense got 17th at Orlando I believe. But people aren't going to recognize Ganon if that level of skill is continuously confined to FL. I don't think anyone is really quesitoning whether they have the capacity to make an even bigger name for themselves and Ganon. But obviously we don't all know their situations, so I don't really hold it against them. I think that one comment about them not wanting to was kind of out of line for that reason. But everything else I saw in the posts rings true. It's harsh, but that's the truth. Whenever I bring up other reputable Ganons to other people, they almost never know who anyone is outside of Kage, Bizz, and Eikelmann. That tells me that the good Ganons outside of these three need more exposure.

 

[Swagic]

So if we could actually, as Ganons, chain grab perfectly in every matchup possible. To the point that one grab = maximum chain grab. What would that make our neutral look like? Would that significantly change how people deal with ganon?

They'd have to exploit speed and be much more careful about approaches. But then maybe it would then be easier to play a defensive Ganon? He'd definitely move up the tier list.

 

[F. Stein]

I guess that's where I'm going to focus then. I'm still going to keep doing my Kage study, I've only gotten skin deep on my findings so far. And i'm going to park on chaingrabbing as my 'major' so to speak. Because it just keeps bothering me that whenever I play I'm reminded, oh yeah if I could chaingrab perfectly this little 45% punish that was decent would be an edgeguard or death. Perfect chain grabs seem to make everythign easier in theory.

 

[Divinokage]

So what percents and positions do you think this would be a better alternative to fair? It would net you more damage. But that one fair could give you a really good edgeguard situation.

Not really at 40-60%, all Fair would do is send them close to the ledge or maybe slightly off stage which normally Ganon doesnt have time to edgeguard if im visioning this correctly. Theres also Dair to punish no tech that is also possible but that option happens a lot less often.

Edit: https://youtu.be/NZj2bmBjeRQ?t=402 One example I remember why reverse dash attack is broken.
http://www.twitch.tv/ssbmontreal/v/41383116?t=07h59m31s Here also, i probably could have grabbed too actually. Its such a sick option lol.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Not really at 40-60%, all Fair would do is send them close to the ledge or maybe slightly off stage which normally Ganon doesnt have time to edgeguard if im visioning this correctly. Theres also Dair to punish no tech that is also possible but that option happens a lot less often.

Edit: https://youtu.be/NZj2bmBjeRQ?t=402 One example I remember why reverse dash attack is broken.
http://www.twitch.tv/ssbmontreal/v/41383116?t=07h59m31s Here also, i probably could have grabbed too actually. Its such a sick option lol.

I think depends on where you get the fair, which is why I bring up positioning. From center stage, I think your dash attack idea sounds more optimal. But maybe if you got that knockdown right near the ledge, fair could be better. It looks like dash attack can set up for fair, but that looks heavily DI and percent dependent. Otherwise, you're only getting a jab or uair to put a spacie offstage when you could've gotten a fair.

Also what do you look for to determine whether you can get that dair or not off a forced miss tech?

 

[Divinokage]

I think depends on where you get the fair, which is why I bring up positioning. From center stage, I think your dash attack idea sounds more optimal. But maybe if you got that knockdown right near the ledge, fair could be better. It looks like dash attack can set up for fair, but that looks heavily DI and percent dependent. Otherwise, you're only getting a jab or uair to put a spacie offstage when you could've gotten a fair.

Also what do you look for to determine whether you can get that dair or not off a forced miss tech?

I only look at if im in range and if i see the green light. I trained myself to punish no techs 100%, idk what else to say lol.

Also don't forget, you can probably grab too for more opportunities.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I only look at if im in range and if i see the green light. I trained myself to punish no techs 100%, idk what else to say lol.

You said that dair to punish missed tech happens less often. So how do you tell when you have the opportunity to get dair vs. just going for a fair/dash attack? From my experience, that makes sense cause I often mess it up when I try to dair missed techs.

 

[spider_sense]

lol I'm trying guys! I'm considering Pound 6 or EVO. I wish I could travel more but Grandma Ganon is 83 years old and is confined to her wheel chair so she relies on me to help her, so most of my time is committed towards that usually, plus I work a job that is physically and mentally demanding (I'm a UPS loader lol) that doesn't pay well so its hard to keep my funds up but I will save up really hard so I can move out and finally have the luxury to travel a little bit more. I'd honestly like to get **** blocked at EVO before I get to play Divinokage again. Linguini might have a sponsor much sooner than everyone thinks, but I'd have to talk to the TGL rep to see if we can get this thing situated.

 

[spider_sense]

Double-post -ACE- Guy is a straight up homie; once I make over 100,000 k a year he's getting in there for sure.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

Is Gotem city hiring?

 

[-ACE-]

So if we could actually, as Ganons, chain grab perfectly in every matchup possible. To the point that one grab = maximum chain grab. What would that make our neutral look like? Would that significantly change how people deal with ganon?

I really think the meta vs sheik would have to evolve into a situation like this for Ganon to stand a decent chance. The sheik cg is actually doable for everyone so it's up to us to show them that one grab at 0% means death. They'd respect the grab more (obviously) and most likely camp more. Especially if you've ASDI grabbed one of her approaches already. They'd probably rely heavily on stuff like fair'ing the top if your shield and running away to bait grabs and buffered options. When they bait your grab and just DD grab your grab attempt, it blows lol.

X WaNtEd X imo he's just saying that you never know how they'll DI the jab that he almost always uses to set up this typical missed tech situation. So if they DI some form of away, no dair. And it's harder to hit the dair when you jab him near 50% vs near 40%.

 

[-ACE-]

https://youtu.be/hXFMWLy6u0A

Me vs. Lemon.

I was and am doing a lot of experimentation with my play. Specifically, I'm trying to implement shield drops extensively for movement and for dropping aerials in neutral and for edgeguards. So you'll see a lot of stupid plays on my part as a result, but a lot of them worked out too. I think if I played safer I could've won this. Regardless, there's some things I struggle with in this matchup even when I'm playing normally. I can't figure out how to edgeguard doc. Lemon specifically will always cover the ledge with pills. Ik I can uair through them, but I always seem to mess up the spacing and timing when I do that. Maybe I should be going for fh uair more instead of wl off platform reverse uair. Anyway, enjoy.

Yeah, you can fh uair, bair and fade back (or bair thru and hit him, depending), tipman the pills (tough but really good), and even fair (top of fair cancels pill, follow thru hits). Even when you don't hit them nullifying any plumber's recovery fireball kinda makes them panic, because they almost always need that pill or fireball to cover one or more of your options to ensure a safe recovery. I normally focus hard on the pill and make sure my spacing is right for that, with doc almost as an afterthought, depending on where he's positioned. That's how good cancelling the projectile is imo.

You could abuse AC bair more. Lemon doesn't look hard to bait. AC bair onstage pills, pressure him with it, bait him with it. Some more intelligent ftilts too.

Pick up on his jab patterns, read the jab, hold down and in (ASDI), grab his jab. No rapid jab for doc, gotta love it. Then obvious uair/bair and try to run and uair or tilt him offstage after.

I also see he likes that nair lol. Be ready to ASDI or shield it and punish at low% and do it right at med% (you could do "almost" survival DI aka straight up in some cases, since doc's follow-ups on Ganon aren't so good in that situation. Know when you don't want to risk a trade with it (when you're at high% or near ledge), and just know he'll probably be jabbing afterwards.

I like the shield drops/running shield drops, you can tell you've been grinding. The tech inconsistency isn't really worth mentioning, many of us need work on that. I like your abuse of uair too. WL into ff uair will help more than fair in a lot of cases, **** with that too.

Divinokage they should be able to DI behind you if they expect the dash attack, but I still see reverse dash attack as pretty good since it'll take them a while to even understand the situation lol. Not to mention it leads into lots of stuff. Then if they actually expect that and actually DI behind, you could dtilt or something. Bodied lol. But yeah, what I said earlier, with the first dash attack executed towards ledge, if it's on the last frame of hitbox, as soon as the dash attack ends you can DA in the other direction, get the strong hit and send them offstage.

 

[-ACE-]

Damn Tommy told me he wasn't going to versus. Get bodied Ace.


Tipman vs Shamunt (sheik)
http://youtu.be/YkxZRFbB_io

Tipman vs Porkchops (WR4)
http://youtu.be/tICYCJ57WSY

Tipman vs Smilez (fox)
http://youtu.be/Nma-sXfZjrI

Tipman vs Hungrypigeon (peach)
http://youtu.be/gZXLWzxGjy8

Tipman vs Prof (LF)
http://youtu.be/b8HTyb4dfnQ

Tipman vs Porkchops (GF)
http://youtu.be/2POGbkji0zM

 

[Linguini]

Dude tommy did some sick **** vs shamunt on the poke rock transformation...I almost came

If I got sponsored if have the motivation to get better...and travel of course. See what you can do griceon.

Btw today is a big day for me, my new ep came out online; you can grab it here:

https://pro.beatport.com/release/comfort-zone/1691609

Peace!

 

[F. Stein]

spider_sense and at anyone that is considering flying out to EVO in vegas this year. If it would make your plane tickets significantly cheaper to fly into Salt Lake City or Denver, I have to drive down near both of those places anyways so I wouldn't mind picking people up to try and knock a $100 or so off a plane ticket. So if anyone lets me know ahead of time that's an option.

 

[Diosama]

Looks like I'm not going to Florida for that tourney in Tampa I mentioned a while back, but me and my homies are going to Vegas for Evo! This and GOML are big motivation for me to improve.