Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Coastward]

@ Divinokage you almost had it against weon-x today, SO CLOSE. i was rooting for you too since i know you struggled against him when he went to montreal.

what happened against IB though? wasnt able to see it.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Fuuuck the fact that jab -> upsmash exists for Fox.

 

[Moy]

Went to a Wisconsin monthly yesterday, and ended up losing to a Pikachu player that I beat first game, then switched to Sheik for the rest of the set. Talk about a boring matchup.

I felt as though I was doing the same types of things that Coast was doing when I watched the set he shared, and that Locke touched upon in his analysis.

Any advice when playing against Sheiks that never approach? This guy was almost the opposite of aggression.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

LOLLLL Moy, that's how LILD beat me. I bopped his fox and then he went sheik and won. It was close, but it was still sheik. Who actually enjoys playing that character? I just don't understand.

Such a lame move on his part, I was actually kinda pissed / salty. But he was pretty cool overall, so I chilled out pretty quickly. My advice is this (and take it with a grain of salt, I only suck LESS when I play this way- I'm by no means good): when they're not approaching, don't ****ing approach. Give that stupid ***** a taste of her own medicine. It's sooooooo boring to play like that, but it has worked better in my experience to just pretend like you're going in and then bair into jab / low ftilt. Camp platforms. Chain grab. Basically, do all of the stuff that makes melee resemble brawl.

**** sheik.

 

[Laharl's_Wrath]

Word up. I'll keep you updated.

Really appreciate that, and also let me know if you end up near NYC or Westchester because that means no need to drive out to LI lol

also, it's reached the point where the only matchup I dislike more than Falcon is Falco
I know it shouldn't be that bad but it's a mental thing and I just fall apart against Falcons, so,anyone have any tips for for the matchup against your own head?

edit:

LOLLLL Moy, that's how LILD beat me. I bopped his fox and then he went sheik and won. It was close, but it was still sheik. Who actually enjoys playing that character? I just don't understand.

Such a lame move on his part, I was actually kinda pissed / salty. But he was pretty cool overall, so I chilled out pretty quickly. My advice is this (and take it with a grain of salt, I only suck LESS when I play this way- I'm by no means good): when they're not approaching, don't ****ing approach. Give that stupid ***** a taste of her own medicine. It's sooooooo boring to play like that, but it has worked better in my experience to just pretend like you're going in and then bair into jab / low ftilt. Camp platforms. Chain grab. Basically, do all of the stuff that makes melee resemble brawl.

**** sheik.

this is also all gold
I actually love playing as sheik (closest thing I have to a secondary by a lot) and I'm starting to enjoy playing against her
I actually enjoy the campy chaingrab centric gameplay I'm lame as ****

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Ganon vs Falcon has to be one of my favorite matchups now. Beating Falcon in neutral with a bair is hella satisfying, edgeguarding him is cake, plus you can go off stage, miss, and get hit by his up-b and then you tech it and do the rock crock. Just CC Falcon's dumb nair and DD away from his knee. If he tries to grab you, full hop dair. Falcon ain't hard bro. Once you got momentum that matchup is a blast.

 

[Divinokage]

@ Divinokage you almost had it against weon-x today, SO CLOSE. i was rooting for you too since i know you struggled against him when he went to montreal.

what happened against IB though? wasnt able to see it.

I couldnt really shake it off after that loss and I got owned pretty much. I couldn't do anything.

 

[Superspright]

Found out I'll be working in west hampton, NY for 2 weeks before I go to FL.

@ S Superspright maybe we can get some games in

If you want to. I'm down. I live in the Shirley area. I'm right off of Sunrise Highway. I'm roughly 20 miles from west hampton, but still.

The CF Match-up is a lot of fun, but not when he knows how to use his own dash-dance to camp you out and make you flinch. Flinch and you die. Rinse repeat ad naseum.

 

[-ACE-]

Not sure where I'll be exactly but I'll most likely not be going into the city @ Laharl's_Wrath

@ S Superspright I'll keep you posted. One day if the dredge goes down i'll hit you up.

 

[Coastward]

most likely gonna be going to sweet prologue, anyone gonna be there?

 

[Moy]

most likely gonna be going to sweet prologue, anyone gonna be there?

I will, most likely. Just gotta wait for another paycheck to book a hotel room.

Also, if anyone could critique this set of mine, it would be most appreciated. I won 2-0, but I feel like there were some things I could've done better. Harry is no slouch by any means, and his Link is fun to watch. It was unfortunate how he messed up his recovery those couple times.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7l0K7pQsRGQ

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Moy, I'm happy to see you improving so much! You and everyone else at EXP is looking really solid now. I remember playing Harry just under a year ago and demolishing him, but he's stepped up his game quite a bit as well. I'm looking forward to break when I can play with everyone there again and start picking my game back up (seems like I've been on hold since Big House).

I only gave it a quick watch, so you can expect some tips and stuff later. You're already exponentially better at edge guarding fox than I am (not like that's difficult).

 

[Laharl's_Wrath]

Not sure where I'll be exactly but I'll most likely not be going into the city @ Laharl's_Wrath

@ S Superspright I'll keep you posted. One day if the dredge goes down i'll hit you up.

(potential) drive out to long island (to get rekt badly by two better players) it is

If you want to. I'm down. I live in the Shirley area. I'm right off of Sunrise Highway. I'm roughly 20 miles from west hampton, but still.

The CF Match-up is a lot of fun, but not when he knows how to use his own dash-dance to camp you out and make you flinch. Flinch and you die. Rinse repeat ad naseum.

I think this is why
I end up thinking "ftilts to wall him out" and then end up getting dash danced and punished and then I think "okay **** I should be more careful with that" and then I'm too slow on approaches so I think "**** I need to cc more so those nairs dont blow me up" and then I get knee'd in the face trying to cc it and just sort of fall to pieces and then that's the whole set because I'm mentally gone

guess the big issue is his dash dance and me not knowing his range well enough
bleh I got so fed up with myself playing friendlies last friday I ended up swapping to sheik whenever someone went falcon because the techchasing is so free but playing another character in friendlies is not how you learn to not get bopped in the matchup

 

[SwiftNinjaBlackMan]

So i was looking at captain smuckers vs kaeon and i saw this https://gfycat.com/FelineBoldAsiandamselfly. Can Dorf put this to good use?... or would it be pointless

 

[Divinokage]

So i was looking at captain smuckers vs kaeon and i saw this https://gfycat.com/FelineBoldAsiandamselfly. Can Dorf put this to good use?... or would it be pointless

Doesn't sound like a likely situation with Ganon as players normally DI the Dair. But downthrow to Fsmash does kill at times, pretty interesting setup on FFers.

 

[Coastward]

if i do:

ledgehop > dash offstage > uair

do i have enough invincibility to get away with it or is it risky?

 

[RedmanSSBM]

if i do:

ledgehop > dash offstage > uair

do i have enough invincibility to get away with it or is it risky?

Risky

 

[PseudoTurtle]

if i do:

ledgehop > dash offstage > uair

do i have enough invincibility to get away with it or is it risky?

Why would you do it, though? Edge guarding? Or attacking your opponent on stage?

If you're trying to attack your opponent on stage, it's super risky. People should RLD into an attack in this scenario, rather than run off DJ bair / uair because RLD is faster and you don't end up facing away from the stage. RLD is not that difficult after you practice for a bit.

If you're trying to use it for edge guard purposes, then I would still say RLD uair / bair is way better for the exact reasons above. Faster, hence more invincibility frames, and you're still facing the stage.

I could be wrong, just my thoughts.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

http://youtu.be/_51teOOIrT8?t=26m50s

slow aerials are pretty good vs fox

 

[-ACE-]

@ Laharl's_Wrath

Bro I better get wrecked.

if i do:

ledgehop > dash offstage > uair

do i have enough invincibility to get away with it or is it risky?

If you are FP you might get the first uair hitbox to be invincible idk. This strategy can be really good though. Keep thinking outside the box!

 

[spider_sense]

Why would you do it, though? Edge guarding? Or attacking your opponent on stage?

If you're trying to attack your opponent on stage, it's super risky. People should RLD into an attack in this scenario, rather than run off DJ bair / uair because RLD is faster and you don't end up facing away from the stage. RLD is not that difficult after you practice for a bit.

If you're trying to use it for edge guard purposes, then I would still say RLD uair / bair is way better for the exact reasons above. Faster, hence more invincibility frames, and you're still facing the stage.

I could be wrong, just my thoughts.

RLD into uair/bair stops Fox/Falco from sweet spotting the stage with their firefox, but just a ledge hop uair wields the same results. I've been implementing so many things for Paragon. I'm looking to place really high, you guys should really try to make it out there.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

RLD into uair/bair stops Fox/Falco from sweet spotting the stage with their firefox, but just a ledge hop uair wields the same results. I've been implementing so many things for Paragon. I'm looking to place really high, you guys should really try to make it out there.

I like ledge hop up air a lot vs spacies as an edge guard, especially when invincible. I think coast was referring to a drop zone type attack, where I think it'd be better to just RLD because it's faster, hence more invincibility.

Good luck, man! Do you have a link to the stream so we can watch?

 

[Coastward]

I like ledge hop up air a lot vs spacies as an edge guard, especially when invincible. I think coast was referring to a drop zone type attack, where I think it'd be better to just RLD because it's faster, hence more invincibility.

Good luck, man! Do you have a link to the stream so we can watch?

i just brought it up because its safer to pull of in terms of not SDing while pulling it off. i think it can have it uses, but im still gonna put time into getting down RLDs.

 

[-ACE-]

RLD into uair/bair stops Fox/Falco from sweet spotting the stage with their firefox, but just a ledge hop uair wields the same results. I've been implementing so many things for Paragon. I'm looking to place really high, you guys should really try to make it out there.

When/where is paragon?

 

[spider_sense]

https://www.facebook.com/events/1502519116670412/

I think they'll have a stream up for sure since my sponsor will be the ones running the event. All the information is on that facebook page. I'm going to try to play my best at this event, so it should definitely be fun.

 

[-ACE-]

Bada$s. It's not impossible that I could make it.

 

[Coastward]

maybe ill come down to FL the week before apex (if im able to go in the first place)

 

[cptjiggles69]

Double post - About the 3 techs; they aren't secret, and I'm pretty sure you guys already know what they are. I'm just trying to make them practical. Anyways, the first one is running up-smash oos (when people are on the platform and Ganon is below them and you think they might fall through with an aerial) Also, one thing I think works is whenever you dair someone, but they don't pop up, you can upsmash oos on the last active frame of your dair, you'll be able to hit them with both hits of the upsmash. I'm not entirely sure if this is DI dependent or not since I always forget about it whenever I play friendlies and go for my usual set up which would either be jab or d-tilt.

The second one is pretty much using the ledge cancel from the BF platforms and right when the ledge cancel ends you double jump immediately and you should be able to waveland from there. Pretty simple actually but something I want to get down and make practical.

Third one is perfect wavelanding with Ganon and making him pivot of the last frame and grab the ledge (I think Renth actually does this but I'm not sure how often) but this tech should be explored more for sure.

Side note for the upsmash oos - Apparently if you're super fast enough; you should be able to jc grab after a upsmash. Tipman told me to try it out, not too sure how I can get this to work, but whatever I'll try it since Tipman told me too lol. I swear that guy is a living embodiment of 20XX.

No stream from VS this week, I think they were having technical issues. Sorry about that guys. :/

Hey i have noticed that sometimes i get that pivot when i try a moonwalk. I should find uses for this

 

[cptjiggles69]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l49sLI1c0hs

someone please critique this. other than flopping a **** ton of chaingrabs and approaching way too much, what should i improve on in the MU?

I firmly believe you should stand your ground against sheik. Don't ever side b her unless you know you got the tech roll. Same with down b. break that habit. The fairs seem solid. Also dont forget up b out of shield can catch someone on shield. Plus there could have been more tilts. It went downhill after you lost 2 stocks too. Chain grab her into maybe up throw up air. Those flubs are lost ko opportunities

 

[spider_sense]

Coast - It seems like you need to CC dtilt more, this sheik really wasn't on point with her grabs, but unfortunately the same goes for you. Once you grab her you need to stick her **** in the dirt. You never really grabbed the ledge whenever you had her off the stage. The bairs by the stage is good, but you were a bit too far for her to be scared. You can even double jump out of her grab at lower percents (albeit it is a bit risky) Also, make sure you try to go for tomahawk grabs whenever you see her shielding. Also, whenever sheik dash attacks you WAIT for her animation to finish to grab her, even if she's behind you. Other than that, I liked the use of the platforms, but you have to make them afraid to go stand there so try to get your uairs to come out quicker (up on the control stick with A) Whenever she does fair you, your best option is to smash/asdi away from her as close as you can to ground.

 

[Coastward]

Coast - It seems like you need to CC dtilt more, this sheik really wasn't on point with her grabs, but unfortunately the same goes for you. Once you grab her you need to stick her **** in the dirt. You never really grabbed the ledge whenever you had her off the stage. The bairs by the stage is good, but you were a bit too far for her to be scared. You can even double jump out of her grab at lower percents (albeit it is a bit risky) Also, make sure you try to go for tomahawk grabs whenever you see her shielding. Also, whenever sheik dash attacks you WAIT for her animation to finish to grab her, even if she's behind you. Other than that, I liked the use of the platforms, but you have to make them afraid to go stand there so try to get your uairs to come out quicker (up on the control stick with A) Whenever she does fair you, your best option is to smash/asdi away from her as close as you can to ground.

i really wanted to crouch cancel more, but my hands werent doing it. same kinda thing happened with grabbing the ledge; i wanted to grab it but i either hesitated to grab it or i didnt get to it in time. i think i gave him to much respect that match.

gonna start bringing a notepad with me to tournaments and keep a log of every match. ill use it to study and ill post my notse on here so that we can all have fun and discuss my ideas and errors.

also, ganon board is best board.

 

[Laharl's_Wrath]

I want to start carrying a notepad to just keep track of my state of mind during **** like that
I'm a firm believer that you defeat yourself more often than not and that **** just interests me

but I'm also lazy and dont want to carry ****, we do live in the digital age after all, **** actual paper (even if I vastly prefer to write **** down manually because then I actually remember ****)

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

got some good ganondorf play from tonight's weekly in orlando, check it out. starts at 1:43:55

http://www.twitch.tv/gamingknights1/b/597580459

excuse the bitchmode ledge shenanigans during the gahtzu set. kinda have to play like that vs him though.

hate having to turtle

 

[Coastward]

front page, gonna start writing tomorrow.

 

[Yort]

I want to start carrying a notepad to just keep track of my state of mind during **** like that
I'm a firm believer that you defeat yourself more often than not and that **** just interests me

but I'm also lazy and dont want to carry ****, we do live in the digital age after all, **** actual paper (even if I vastly prefer to write **** down manually because then I actually remember ****)

It's very true that your own mental state is incredibly influential to your gameplay. Although I do not believe that recording your mental state will really help you significantly; not as much as general understanding of the concepts and experience with them.

From my experience nervousness and pure anger are the most detrimental to your gameplay.

Also the ability to analyze your opponents patterns and decisions is very important, and any emotion that can throw off your mental focus for the first few stocks of a set is clearly detrimental. Often nervousness will have you focusing on your own character and your own mistakes - which detracts from your ability to get a feel your opponent.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Ian, you could've had him! Nice play, but that dtilt into nothing first game had me heartbroken. Perfect set up / time to tech chase with dsmash. It would have hit and you could fair into an edge guard.

Sick chain grabs. Officially on my list of **** that ****s falcon up.

 

[spider_sense]

Nice drawing Coast, if this smash thing doesn't work out you sure as hell have a bright future in artistry. It's not uncommon to carry notes for matches (I think Infiltration writes everything on his phone and refers to it inbetween matches) A notebook might be a little excessive, but do what you have to do man. Don't let anyone tell you differently.

Also Coast I have a the same problems with my hands, but what I realize is that you have to mentally tell yourself the inputs you want to come out. Even if you have certain things committed to memory, consciously affirm what decisions you want to make and follow through.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

@n0ne I'm liking the shield drops

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Ian, you could've had him! Nice play, but that dtilt into nothing first game had me heartbroken. Perfect set up / time to tech chase with dsmash. It would have hit and you could fair into an edge guard.

Sick chain grabs. Officially on my list of **** that ****s falcon up.

i made a few crucial mistakes that lost those games for me. like when i airdodged and didn't grab the ledge, or that down tilt where i should've absolutely hit him, or when he almost suicided and i tried to take advantage of it, but i ****ed it up and airdodged for some reason. new controller plz.

 

[Laharl's_Wrath]

It's very true that your own mental state is incredibly influential to your gameplay. Although I do not believe that recording your mental state will really help you significantly; not as much as general understanding of the concepts and experience with them.

From my experience nervousness and pure anger are the most detrimental to your gameplay.

Also the ability to analyze your opponents patterns and decisions is very important, and any emotion that can throw off your mental focus for the first few stocks of a set is clearly detrimental. Often nervousness will have you focusing on your own character and your own mistakes - which detracts from your ability to get a feel your opponent.

Taking stock of when, what causes, and the impact of certain emotions and actually putting it into written word has helped me get a better understanding of myself and how to keep those emotions more in check with other things, so I see no harm in trying to apply that to melee as well
It's one thing to say "I got nervous and focused too much on my own character and flubbed tech rather than look for patterns" and then likely forget about the details by the time the night is done (especially if they dont result in a harsh, memorable, loss), it's another to put it down in writing and go back with a level head to look at exactly why or when you get nervous, angry, etc. and using that information (for example noticing chaingrabs or falco lasers or shine (**** hitting on frame 1 while being invincible) put you on tilt particularly often means spending a bit of time thinking about their weaknesses or messing about with them in friendlies to further drive the "this is not unbeatable or easymode" point home can go a long way)
At least those are my thoughts