Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[-ACE-]

Getting good at the ditto stops you from getting bodied at versus. And he'll also get good general Ganon advice while playing.

Wish some of mine and tipman's matches from today could have been recorded. Quad stomp baby lol

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I have been playing this game competitively for 2 and a half years and I have only gotten a few sessions with players better than me to explain to me things about the game right then and there. They are very valuable but I have mostly learned on my own this whole time. Sure, I would love to have someone much better than me explain the game more to me when I play them but I just do not have access to a person like that in my city, not to mention that I am in college and I get very busy with homework and my job. Learning to tech yourself things is the best way to help yourself improve. It's hard, but you definitely learn.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

I do tho, And i'm trying to abuse that liberty

 

[Divinokage]

The key to become good is active thinking. I have a feeling many players play friendlies simply to have fun with the other player. You know as they say that visioning things in your mind is 50% of the battle? Well its actually true. And also when they say that players that take a break get better after a week of not playing is probably because they thought of the game during that time. If you can develop new strats every new session even if its just one little thing then eventually all those little things will pile up.

The other 50% is applying those strats to see if it works or not. The tech skill required to do certain strats will come in time as long as you practice them. All the top players are proof of that and also back then when I did physical training I was stuck on performing a certain flip on the monkey bars. While I couldnt do it at the time, I visualized it in my head on how I should use my muscles in order to get that flip and then suddenly I could do it one shot when I tried. I believe thats how every human beings works, you have to understand your system. =P

 

[X WaNtEd X]

You can learn a lot on your own. And practicing by yourself is a must. But ultimately, you're going to have to face your demons. There are very few players I've met that said they got good by just practicing by themselves, bodying their friends, and then immediately going to tournaments and making upsets happen. It really helps to have a good balance of people to practice against in terms of skill levels.

Also being good at a local is different than being good. The Ganon ditto just isn't a very important matchup to know in today's meta. I'm not saying ignore it. But there are other matchups you should be far more concerned about imo.

 

[Divinokage]

You can learn a lot on your own. And practicing by yourself is a must. But ultimately, you're going to have to face your demons. There are very few players I've met that said they got good by just practicing by themselves, bodying their friends, and then immediately going to tournaments and making upsets happen. It really helps to have a good balance of people to practice against in terms of skill levels.

Also being good at a local is different than being good. The Ganon ditto just isn't a very important matchup to know in today's meta. I'm not saying ignore it. But there are other matchups you should be far more concerned about imo.

You'll pretty much be automatically good at the Ganon mirror as long as you know how to play and what to look for. Like where did I practice my Ganon mirrors back in Canada? I couldn't.. and yet im really good at the matchup. However when I did play it in the US i simply took notes on how the character works inside out. You can learn tricks from other Ganons in that way and then use it against them. Then you can use those tricks on other matchups as well if you know what your opponent wants to do. It does require a lot of experience but as I said earlier theres only certain things your opponent can do depending on the space between you and him such as baiting jumps, rolls, shield.. etc.

 

[Bwmat]

yeah, ganon dittos you don't really need to do anything special really, it's just neutral -> offstage -> dead

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Kage I completely agree with your stance on mental theory crafting. A lot of times I'll watch sets of myself and look at what I could do in certain situations where I got hit or to continue a combo. Nothing feels better than it working out next time I apply my thoughts to a certain situation.

And yo I watched some sets I played on Friday and I gotta say my spacing is getting pretty good. It makes a huge difference vs fox and because of it, I actually feel more comfortable on FD than on stadium (vs fox). I think they're both terrible stages (hence why I'm learning marth), but FD might have a slight advantage over stadium because of the ceiling and lack of dumbass transformations that reeeeally benefit fox. Also, the platforms in the neutral transformation don't really benefit ganon all that much IMO. Without the options that a top plat brings, approaches and movement on the poke plats seem very limited. It's been my ban vs fox and falco for a while. It's working out decently. It just sucks expecting to auto lose a game as a g main lol.

@ spider_sense sorry about your bird man, best of luck moving forward.

 

[Divinokage]

Kage I completely agree with your stance on mental theory crafting. A lot of times I'll watch sets of myself and look at what I could do in certain situations where I got hit or to continue a combo. Nothing feels better than it working out next time I apply my thoughts to a certain situation..

Ya, objective observation is the true way to become a good player and also the optimal mindset. If a player still holds himself back with excuses or doubts for example and well it could be any random thoughts that disrupts your play then he has work to do before achieving that mindset. Its clearly not easy but if your objective is clear from the start then youll automatically work your way up at least from my experience. I remember at some point where my level skyrocketed and it was because i understood my faults. I dont think in that road i complained about things that are "broken" but i definitely joked about it before. Losing generally tells you exactly where things went badly for you but I guess for some people its extremely hard to admit it. But of course its better to constantly observe every single move where you lost the exchange.

With that said, I remember a saying in the peaceful warrior where it said: "A warrior is not about perfection, or victory, or invulnerability, its about absolute vulnerability. That's the only true courage. Life is choice, you can choose to be a victim or anything else you'd like to be."

It basically means you must accept your situation and then make a choice based off of that. Youll be able to see exactly what you need. Anything else is just excuses that stops yourself from growing. Being a good player is about fighting yourself.

... I guess im back into warrior mode again. =P There are still things ive been holding back and want to accomplish, I believe its time.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

@ Divinokage that was beautiful (no joke)

 

[-ACE-]

I have been playing this game competitively for 2 and a half years and I have only gotten a few sessions with players better than me to explain to me things about the game right then and there. They are very valuable but I have mostly learned on my own this whole time. Sure, I would love to have someone much better than me explain the game more to me when I play them but I just do not have access to a person like that in my city, not to mention that I am in college and I get very busy with homework and my job. Learning to tech yourself things is the best way to help yourself improve. It's hard, but you definitely learn.

I'm self-taught. It's a hard ****ing road LOL. Even if no one is there to teach you stuff realtime, as long as you have access to good players and actually talk smash from time to time (even small talk as long as it's related to the meta), you'll pick up things faster and there will be lots of opportunities to learn. Watching vids is great too if you truly understand top level decision making.

 

[gmBottles]

I've hit a plateau with my main, Bowser, so I think nows the time to finally make the switch to Ganondorf, at least until I really get good at Melee. While my main goal is still going to be development of Bowser as a character, I'll probably be more active here now. I think I've already got most things down tech-wise, along with good reads, but what else are some things I should look out for as a newbie Dorf?

 

[RedmanSSBM]

When you play as Ganon, pay really close attention to how you interact with your opponent in neutral. First get to playing some friendlies with your friends or whoever is able to smash with you. Once you encounter a matchup you struggle with, study that particular matchup on youtube and take notes on what the Ganon does in neutral to win. Then try to apply these notes in person again the next time you play friendlies. After you are done with this second session of friendlies, ask yourself if you implemented anything new into your neutral game. If you did, then that's improvement, and you should keep going. If you didn't, then repeat the cycle until you do.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I'm, also self-taught. It's hard, but I'm glad I chose this road because I've molded myself into a unique player as a result.

Man, these last few posts have inspired me to improve my approach to improving. I feel as if my approach has been similar to what kage was talking about. But I have not been honest enough with myself.

 

[gmBottles]

I guess saying I was a newbie to Ganon wasn't really accurate, I've been playing Ganondorf for a while. I am new to maining him though, I guess the main thing I need help with is neutral game, so I'll keep that in mind @ RedmanSSBM

 

[Divinokage]

I'm, also self-taught. It's hard, but I'm glad I chose this road because I've molded myself into a unique player as a result.

Man, these last few posts have inspired me to improve my approach to improving. I feel as if my approach has been similar to what kage was talking about. But I have not been honest enough with myself.

Hm thats not exactly correct because even you emulate another style, your way of thinking makes you a unique player anyway. Every single player has a distinct style.

Sometimes its necessary to go against that way of thinking in order to see other perspective because if you remain the same as you always was, you arent really going anywhere.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Hm thats not exactly correct because even you emulate another style, your way of thinking makes you a unique player anyway. Every single player has a distinct style.

Sometimes its necessary to go against that way of thinking in order to see other perspective because if you remain the same as you always was, you arent really going anywhere.

I guess my point was I wouldn't have thought of a lot of the things I do (particularly movement options) had I not spent a lot of time playing by myself. Unique was a poor way to put it I guess.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

On an unrelated note, here's some footage of Bizzarroflame vs. Drunk Sloth from Paragon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4UHAotXAdA&list=PLBDqRk-vdjxyjzj1dBi-kQE2tj0xXRSXD&index=1

 

[tm]

Ya, objective observation is the true way to become a good player and also the optimal mindset. If a player still holds himself back with excuses or doubts for example and well it could be any random thoughts that disrupts your play then he has work to do before achieving that mindset. Its clearly not easy but if your objective is clear from the start then youll automatically work your way up at least from my experience. I remember at some point where my level skyrocketed and it was because i understood my faults. I dont think in that road i complained about things that are "broken" but i definitely joked about it before. Losing generally tells you exactly where things went badly for you but I guess for some people its extremely hard to admit it. But of course its better to constantly observe every single move where you lost the exchange.

With that said, I remember a saying in the peaceful warrior where it said: "A warrior is not about perfection, or victory, or invulnerability, its about absolute vulnerability. That's the only true courage. Life is choice, you can choose to be a victim or anything else you'd like to be."

It basically means you must accept your situation and then make a choice based off of that. Youll be able to see exactly what you need. Anything else is just excuses that stops yourself from growing. Being a good player is about fighting yourself.

... I guess im back into warrior mode again. =P There are still things ive been holding back and want to accomplish, I believe its time.

What a godlike post. <3 Kage

 

[spider_sense]

Ace has been helping me out tremendously with my neutral, so I think I've improved in that regard; I think the only problem I really do face is overthinking scenarios/situations. If I didn't think so hard on things; then it wouldn't be a major issues but I feel like I've thrown away some good matches all because I have this "what if" mentality.

 

[-ACE-]

What a godlike post. <3 Kage

It really was. It's good @ Divinokage has never abandoned the G boards.

Shots fired @Bizzarro Flame

@ spider_sense 5pm melee bro

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

It really was. It's good @ Divinokage has never abandoned the G boards.

Shots fired @Bizzarro Flame

@ spider_sense 5pm melee bro

Don't get lost @ spider_sense

 

[tm]

Going to embrace vulnerability here and ask you guys to help me tear myself apart:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUGZ-6IapNw
me vs MB-Smash (Sheik). I bet Kage remembers him

 

[Coastward]

Going to embrace vulnerability here and ask you guys to help me tear myself apart:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUGZ-6IapNw
me vs MB-Smash (Sheik). I bet Kage remembers him

id give you hella tips right now since i'm ****ing around in class right now but sheik is like my worst MU and i feel like id be giving you misinformation and ****.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I just spent like a solid hour practicing tech. I never really practice like that and idk why. Last time I did that was the week leading up to McSmashter and that tournament was probably the best I've ever played. I feel really good about my play right now. Movement is super smooth.

I was doing a lot of experimenting with ledge cancels and ****. Do you guys have any setups that you like to do with those on side platforms? Maybe as shield pressure? I was doing upair -> upair but I'm not sure if that would be fast enough to beat a shield drop. Getting the ledge cancel consistently was also hard so idk how feasible that sort of thing would be in tournament.

I feel like I wasted this summer by not really going to anything after GOML and not really practicing my Ganon, I spent more time screwing around with secondaries than anything else. I've got a new burst of motivation right now because my school's entered in The Melee Games and I want to do well for my team. Hopefully I can level up fast and make up for the wasted summer.

 

[Russy]

I have an annoying habit of using dair much more often than I'd like to. What do you all think would be the best way to break this habit, or really any habits in general since im on the topic

 

[X WaNtEd X]

@ Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir I've done a lot of experimenting with edge cancels. So let's say you're under someone on a platform. You full hop and do an aerial to edge cancel into something and you've got some decent shield pressure. Try all the combinations. I like to do either bair or dair into an edge canceled aerial or waveland. Those aerial will provide enough shield stun so that they won't be able to shield drop as fast as they'd like. So it might give you enough time to get out of the way of their shield drop aerial, in which case you can then punish with the aerial you land with after the edge cancel.

Now let's say they shield drop and then shield below, waveland, or do something defensive. You waveland in after the edge cancel and grab to beat their shield, tilt/jab to beat them if they run away, or you could try something like dsmash to catch them if they try to spot dodge. I have not tested this in 20xx so I don't know what is guaranteed or not. But I have a feeling some of it is. But as I said, just experiment with everything and figure out all the mixups you want to learn.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Another thing to try:

Waveland off platform and fast fall immediately so you edge cancel the ledge. Once you got that down, you can do an aerial that edge cancels the ledge and then grab the ledge or double jump. Try this on battlefield

 

[-ACE-]

I have an annoying habit of using dair much more often than I'd like to. What do you all think would be the best way to break this habit, or really any habits in general since im on the topic

I got a quintuple stomp in today, last dair wasn't in stun, traded with Jason's bair for a double KO.

Oh, you want to dair LESS? Nevermind

 

[gmBottles]

I have an annoying habit of using dair much more often than I'd like to. What do you all think would be the best way to break this habit, or really any habits in general since im on the topic

I guess you just need to pay attention and think about whether or not the dair will hit or miss. And if the dair is risky, will you get punished?
It's pretty much impossible to dair too much if you hit enough of them right?

 

[Xtra_Crispy]

You also have your double jump, waveland back across the platform after an edgecancel. Slide off fair can catch shield drops if you dodge the areal.

Also, your edge cancels aren't limited to just high platforms. Get them down on FoD (or even the little lip on stadium transformations) and you can start doing sick stuff like dair + edgecancel + upair+ jab/ grab off the low platforms for some solid shield pressure swag

 

[Xtra_Crispy]

Crossup dairs can be pretty safe against a lot of characters. Fullhop + immediate dair can be double jumped out of to make it a little more safe.

 

[-ACE-]

Multiple dairs certainly aren't optimal when you give up creating an edgeguard opportunity in doing so, but if it wasn't for sick **** like that I probably wouldn't play this game lol.

 

[Coastward]

yo gboards looking active as **** lately.

place top 8 now at majors.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Going to embrace vulnerability here and ask you guys to help me tear myself apart:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUGZ-6IapNw
me vs MB-Smash (Sheik). I bet Kage remembers him

More up airs. That sheik was giving you so many opportunities for preemptive up airs with all that jumping around. I seem to have lost some of my sheik knowledge recently. Kinda sad. I beat the good doctor and then I played two players in tournament the other day. I beat them before, but now they go sheik. I'm flattered they have to switch to sheik to beat me, but I still lost and that sucks.

I'll try and look at it a bit more in depth if you want, but at this point I'm sorta relearning the matchup.

edit: nevermind. That up air at 3:16. I see you adapting and sh*t. Good stuff, man.

 

[-FEMTO-]

@ -ACE- I'll see your quintuple stomp and raise you a sextuple F-air: http://gfycat.com/HopefulBrokenGrebe

 

[PseudoTurtle]

I have an annoying habit of using dair much more often than I'd like to. What do you all think would be the best way to break this habit, or really any habits in general since im on the topic

Double post because the mods are dead here. Idk man, habits take a long time to break. Try and think about your habits and why you stomp so much. Is there a reason for it or is it just spam? Every time you stomp now, I want you to think about it afterward, and ask yourself why you did it- was it to stuff a spot dodge? A grab attempt? Outspace a shine? Tech chase? Because you def shouldn't be dairing in neutral lol.

If you can't think of a reason, make your opponent pick sheik and watch yourself get chain grabbed for 5 straight minutes as punishment.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

@ -ACE- I'll see your quintuple stomp and raise you a sextuple F-air: http://gfycat.com/HopefulBrokenGrebe

Dude wtf LOLLLLL. Next on your list: beat 3 dsmashes in a row as a tech chase / whatever.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Oh yeah guys I found some gameplay of mine that was recorded. There's some Kage commentary :D

I would appreciate some critique if some of you guys wouldn't mind. Haven't gotten any feedback on the last several videos I posted -.-

But anyway, I've been doing a lot of experimental stuff with my gameplay lately. Trying to figure out how to incorporate my 1 frame drops into my gameplay and some other stuff. It's cost me a bit, but I think it'll be worth losing some sets to get better in the long run.

Doubles:

http://www.twitch.tv/vermontmelee/v/13615074

First set is at the beginning. Second starts at 19:20. If you're going to watch one of these, the second is the one I would need more criticism with. There are also some Kage sets in this link!

Friendlies between me and Kage and me vs. Puff:

http://www.twitch.tv/vermontmelee/v/13630658

Lot of lag unfortunately. But there's some moments where you can see things happening.

The Puff match starts at 8:30. Of all the vids I posted here, this is the set I need the most help with. I have some ideas, but I always like to get other people's thoughts in case I missed something.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

@ tm

I probably shouldn't ask for help if I'm unwilling to give it. So here's some things I noticed in no particular order.

Obviously you can't drop the chaingrab. There were some missed opportunities to punish dash attack off crouch cancel.

When Sheik is on the ledge, you pre-emptivaley dropped down to bair from the platform. I think you should try some movement mixups to trick her into running into your bair instead of hoping it works. Like wavedash off the platform fast fall, double jump back on into a small waveland, drop through into bair. Or alternatively you could learn to shield drop out of a dash and dash dance on the platform into a bair when the time is right.

There was this one point at 5:46 where you got a dtilt that knocked down and then double jump faired. The Sheik missed the tech and immediately rolled away since the common thinking people have is "Ganon is slow and can't catch up to me". So I'd recommend trying run-up dtilt. I've seen Linguini do it a lot in knock down situations where he's too late to punish the missed tech but has to make a read.

up-b oos worked a few times, but you also got punished for it. I'd be a little more conserved with its use. I feel like you just have to play it passive with the oos game against sheik these days.

The randy down-bs gotta stop. It's not worth the risk.

You shield drop too much on platforms. It's too predictable. Believe me, I understand the urge. I do it too much too. But some other options you should try to mix in are wd oos and then drop through for a specific spacing. Or try just wd oos off the platform. You started to get baited into pre emptive shield drop uairs towards the end of that set.

Your ledge play could've been better. You got stuffed out of ledge dash a few times. Try just ledge hopping and then just getting a tiny bit of ground when you see someone is positioned to deal with your ledge dash. When they're in that position, they're not able to cover your other ledge options.