Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[FROST :)]

Playing Ganon is fun until I realise that 8 out of the 9 players I can play with main sheik. FML

 

[Divinokage]

Well.. I see a lot of posts about practicing new techs but how about the defense?

I mean that to be successful with any character, you have to get good at defending yourself such as knowing how to CC and SDI/regular DI combos in order for you to get back the momentum. If you arent good with those you'll just get roflstomped for free even with amazing execution. Usually a good way to go about it is getting hit with moves and trying out different directions to test if you can tech hits at low % or higher %. Such as Fox nair, you can CC grab it just by running to his face and CCing at the right distance where he cant cross you up. Then you can start your punish game right there. These things arent nearly explored enough, people seem to care about styling more than anything.. lol.

 

[-ACE-]

Playing Ganon is fun until I realise that 8 out of the 9 players I can play with main sheik. FML

Good practice. Look forward to surprising sheiks out of state if you keep it up

 

[FROST :)]

Good practice. Look forward to surprising sheiks out of state if you keep it up

I'm pretty sure that Sheiks in FL know the matchup well. T_T

 

[tm]

I was practicing CG's in the hyperbolic time chamber, and I wanted to know, does hitting them before you downthrow them, make it easier to regrab them?

Their launch velocity is dependent only upon their % after you throw them. Pummeling between hits will increase their percent after your throw, and therefore send them farther. Generally this means your follow up will be easier, but not always. It depends on your opponent's character, their % and DI, and what follow up you are going for.

Despite the thread name I assume this is the social thread.

Been reading up through the CG guides, matchup threads and whatnot. Now practicing as much tech as I can (Perfect wavelands, all sorts of l cancelling (when hitting opponents etc) and wavedashing and more platform wavelanding and stufffffffffffffffff)

I'm still ****, but i'm the only person in my area who mains Ganon

What region?

Well.. I see a lot of posts about practicing new techs but how about the defense?

I mean that to be successful with any character, you have to get good at defending yourself such as knowing how to CC and SDI/regular DI combos in order for you to get back the momentum. If you arent good with those you'll just get roflstomped for free even with amazing execution. Usually a good way to go about it is getting hit with moves and trying out different directions to test if you can tech hits at low % or higher %. Such as Fox nair, you can CC grab it just by running to his face and CCing at the right distance where he cant cross you up. Then you can start your punish game right there. These things arent nearly explored enough, people seem to care about styling more than anything.. lol.

Yesssss. No johns about getting destroyed, most ganons' defense is very weak (myself included).
This set of Kage's has some nice CC play

I still think sheik is not nearly as bad as everyone makes it out to be.

 

[HEADHNTR]

Well.. I see a lot of posts about practicing new techs but how about the defense?

I'm aware of what you're saying, but living in the particular area of my city in Perth, Western Australia that leaves me well over an hour from anyone else who plays this game. So i practice tech. I could probably do it in training mode with two controllers, but that's a ****load of effort. I prefer to play and learn by trial and error in the tournaments I attend.

What region?

As above, I live in Perth in West Australia

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

Their launch velocity is dependent only upon their % after you throw them. Pummeling between hits will increase their percent after your throw, and therefore send them farther. Generally this means your follow up will be easier, but not always. It depends on your opponent's character, their % and DI, and what follow up you are going for.

What region?

Yesssss. No johns about getting destroyed, most ganons' defense is very weak (myself included).
This set of Kage's has some nice CC play

I still think sheik is not nearly as bad as everyone makes it out to be.

Sheiks not that bad, til you play plup RIP YvngFlame

 

[-ACE-]

I'm pretty sure that Sheiks in FL know the matchup well. T_T

Read what I said again.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Well.. I see a lot of posts about practicing new techs but how about the defense?

I mean that to be successful with any character, you have to get good at defending yourself such as knowing how to CC and SDI/regular DI combos in order for you to get back the momentum. If you arent good with those you'll just get roflstomped for free even with amazing execution. Usually a good way to go about it is getting hit with moves and trying out different directions to test if you can tech hits at low % or higher %. Such as Fox nair, you can CC grab it just by running to his face and CCing at the right distance where he cant cross you up. Then you can start your punish game right there. These things arent nearly explored enough, people seem to care about styling more than anything.. lol.

Abso-freaking-lutely. Ganon can CC and ASDI down so many different things against every opponent that not enough people really abuse that stuff. That's why it's imperative to stay on the ground as Ganon in neutral so that you don't get popped into the air for an easy combo. You should only jump if your opponent jumps and you usually want to do retreating moves when you do jump. Using Ganon's defensive abilities is really underutilized, especially things like ASDI down to grab, jab, and even dtilt or down angled ftilt. Hell I still don't see a lot of Ganon's WD OOS away from their opponent at the right time, or using it as a bait of sorts. It's almost all about that defensive ground game as Ganon, and definitely don't forget that up-angled ftilt in neutral! Super good for stuffing SH approaches from a lot of characters (I've done it on Bl@ck Chris' Fox recently and it totally caught him off guard).

 

[Orah]

@ Divinokage
So I totally agree with your post and this is a key area I definitely need to improve in.
As far as cc fox's nair how would you adapt to a fox who adapts to your cc by shining after their nair?
And as far as playing good defense against Falco it's obvious that Ganon can't run into a cc grab against a trigger happy Falco so From what I understand is that we have to full hop AC fairs/dairs to weave thru the lasers and close space. And I've also seen that if you sheild di away you can sheild grab Falco but I'm not 100% sure at what time he is vulnerable like is it after the Dair or after the shine?
Also @ Divinokage what would you do to counter a sheik who likes to needle camp and stay in shield? And unfortunately against Falcon I find myself in sheild a lot because I know that's the answer for the knee, I know high f-tilt can beat everything else he has I just need to get more accustomed to using it. I also know u can cc his nair but any advice would be greatly appreciated.

One thing I also noticed when I was watching your set against KJH is that you like to fair at the ledge alot. But KJH would always sweetspot with up b. Wereyou trying to condition him to always sweetspot and keep him from getting back to center stage by cornering him to the ledge instead going for the stock offstage? One moment I remember this worked because he tried going to the right side platform and u called it out with a bair. It be cool if you could explain your thought process on this!

I'd love to read about your defensive strategies against all the top 8 if you're willing to share your knowledge Grandmaster Kage.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

@ Orah You should be worrying more about getting drilled into shine, as that combo is not CCable and you need to SDI away or Behind Fox at that point. Basically, you kind of want the Fox to use nair instead of dair cause nair is ASDI-able down until 44%. Drill doesn't have as much range as nair does so sometimes the Fox will have to over-commit his movement to hit you with a dair, which you can take advantage of.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Ganondorf match analysis: http://www.twitch.tv/skytch

 

[-ACE-]

@ Orah shield DI the shine

 

[KenMeister]

I'm pretty sure that Sheiks in FL know the matchup well. T_T

Same. Welcome to the reason why I have to have a pocket Sheik. >.<

 

[FROST :)]

Well I just platform camp and BAir. I'm pretty sure this doesnt work against most of Shiek's

 

[Coastward]

@ Divinokage how the fick did you beat dizzkidboogie LOL

he bodied me today again, also lost to the link player that beat me a few weeks ago

BUT YO @ PseudoTurtle I GOT RLD > PLATFORM WAVELAND > TURNAROUND MOONWALK FAIR ON SOMEONE LMAOOO

 

[KenMeister]

Well I just platform camp and BAir. I'm pretty sure this doesnt work against most of Shiek's

Well even then, she covers your options better than most other characters, if not all of them barring Fox. I happen to have 3 really good players who use her, and I can't seem to stand my ground without a character switch, as well as this tech-savvy Samus main who just missile-cancel camps the ****e out of me. Everyone else around my area I'm pretty comfortable using Ganon with, though.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

@ Orah shield DI the shine

You do it like regular DI but in sheild right?

 

[-ACE-]

You do it like regular DI but in sheild right?

If you are shielding and holding back, Ganon moves back a little bit.

If you input back DURING shield stun, you move back a little farther.

Try to at least hold back during the shine and grab.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

If you are shielding and holding back, Ganon moves back a little bit.

If you input back DURING shield stun, you move back a little farther.

Try to at least hold back during the shine and grab.

Then I grab the ****! outta that lil fox thot

 

[FROST :)]

Ganon has a chaingrab on Pikachu?

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

Ganon has a chaingrab on Pikachu?

til 30+ %

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Got 17th or some **** at combo breaker... Choked harder than a porn star.

Beat a pikachu player 2-0 in winners side and then he 2-1d me in losers.

I'm not happy about this

 

[Bwmat]

pikachu/pichu are really freaking annoying to fight since they're so small.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

pikachu/pichu are really freaking annoying to fight since they're so small.

RIGHT?! Got Ganon looking like he shadow boxing

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Exactly. Jab? Nope, pika can literally do anything under your jab / grab. And who the **** knew attacking pikachu's shield from behind isn't safe.

That's one hell of an adaptation to make mid set.

Yooooo @ Coastward sick dude. Probably the most satisfying thing in the game thus far

 

[X WaNtEd X]

power shielding with ganon while crouching/asdi down is the new meta for ganon. if you mess up the powershield by acting too late, you have the option to crouch cancel/asdi punish. and if you hit the powershield, you can also get a punish. i think knowing the percents you can get a punish out of a cc on common moves is important. just look at this **** right here. great example of how good di and cc/asdi can land you nasty punishes. plus look at that ftilt. throwing out grounded moves to bait approaches is great because there's always the chance they'll just run into your hitbox.

i think one of the things that separates the better ganon players from the worse is the use of shield. i'm starting to notice how much i and others unnecessarily use shield in neutral. i like to think of ganon as a juggernaut that just absorbs damage. most of your deaths will come from edgeguards, not KOs (matchup dependent I suppose). stage control and avoiding combos outweigh taking a little percent here and there.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

oh and i have a question. if you do a cc jab (control stick at that lower diagonal angle) do you still get the cc if you get hit while the hitbox is coming out?

 

[Divinokage]

@ Divinokage
So I totally agree with your post and this is a key area I definitely need to improve in.
As far as cc fox's nair how would you adapt to a fox who adapts to your cc by shining after their nair?
And as far as playing good defense against Falco it's obvious that Ganon can't run into a cc grab against a trigger happy Falco so From what I understand is that we have to full hop AC fairs/dairs to weave thru the lasers and close space. And I've also seen that if you sheild di away you can sheild grab Falco but I'm not 100% sure at what time he is vulnerable like is it after the Dair or after the shine?
Also @ Divinokage what would you do to counter a sheik who likes to needle camp and stay in shield? And unfortunately against Falcon I find myself in sheild a lot because I know that's the answer for the knee, I know high f-tilt can beat everything else he has I just need to get more accustomed to using it. I also know u can cc his nair but any advice would be greatly appreciated.

One thing I also noticed when I was watching your set against KJH is that you like to fair at the ledge alot. But KJH would always sweetspot with up b. Wereyou trying to condition him to always sweetspot and keep him from getting back to center stage by cornering him to the ledge instead going for the stock offstage? One moment I remember this worked because he tried going to the right side platform and u called it out with a bair. It be cool if you could explain your thought process on this!

I'd love to read about your defensive strategies against all the top 8 if you're willing to share your knowledge Grandmaster Kage.

@ Divinokage As far as cc fox's nair how would you adapt to a fox who adapts to your cc by shining after their nair?

Depends on the spacing, if hes able to shine after CCed nair then your spacing is off by a little bit. You are more likely too close where hes able to cross you up, need to stand back a little bit more. If he does hit you then CC to shield DI grab the shine, its good because they will most likely jump after the shine so you are able to grab them.

@ Divinokage what would you do to counter a sheik who likes to needle camp and stay in shield? And unfortunately against Falcon I find myself in sheild a lot because I know that's the answer for the knee, I know high f-tilt can beat everything else he has I just need to get more accustomed to using it. I also know u can cc his nair but any advice would be greatly appreciated.

You can usually get in between the needle and her and upair. The setup is usually wavedash in to upair to get in between her and the needles so shes stuck in lag while throwing them. You have to challenge her a lot because she has the advantage in range and up close. If Sheik shields your hitboxes, then bait her OOS options right after. From there then you have to call whether she wants to jump or wavedash/dash in. Get her before she throws anything.

Vs Falcon you cannot shield a lot unless you have to. You have to get good at keeping space with him and then counter attack his hitboxes. With any matchup, shielding with Ganon is very bad so you have to read what your opponents habits are. Like if they shield do they like to jump? Wavedash OOS? Roll? Regardless, you have to stuff them before anything happens. From there you can get a good punish game going on. The punish game is like another phase of the neutral. I like to break the game into 3 phases.. Punish, edgeguard and neutral. Another reason why Ganon lose a lot is because they cannot get 50%+ on getting good techchases. Admittedly its very hard but its extremely important vs characters that can punish you for 50% just as easily. You have to train yourself to be able to see where they want to go depending on the % and where they currently landed. Its pretty hard to explain but everyone has tendencies. Like I trained myself to see the green light animation every time someone no techs and i punish it nearly every time. Same thing how if you want to read how someone wants to tech, you can read it by doing it enough times.

@ Divinokage One thing I also noticed when I was watching your set against KJH is that you like to fair at the ledge alot. But KJH would always sweetspot with up b. Wereyou trying to condition him to always sweetspot and keep him from getting back to center stage by cornering him to the ledge instead going for the stock offstage? One moment I remember this worked because he tried going to the right side platform and u called it out with a bair. It be cool if you could explain your thought process on this!

I'd love to read about your defensive strategies against all the top 8 if you're willing to share your knowledge Grandmaster Kage.

I think that specific set, I was trying to read a up-B above or straight at me but he went for the ledge. I also think the reason why i caught later on is because he was too far to even attempt to get to the ledge so it was pretty free after that point. Its really hard for Ganon to cover multiple options offstage because he cant go too far out there. You have to cover multiple options on stage most of the time and also make sure to grab the ledge when someone is moderately far out there so hes forced to go on-stage and then you can use your invincibility to punish him out there again. Basically, spacing is everywhere, try to reduce their options based on where they are and then you can shut them down a lot easier. I still dont know how to explain the spacing quite accurately because I would need actual pictures I think.. lol

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

got 5th at the orlando monthly. plup 3-0'd hungrybox in first set of grand finals with sheik and then was up 2-0, but lost 3 games in a row. it was probably one of the hardest monthlies in florida aside from colbol being all about marth lately.

also i lost 2-1 to gahtzu again. same as last time. won on bf, lost on stadium and let it slip through my fingers. i've tested myself so much vs florida players and styles that i'm ridiculously hungry to see how i'll do vs other falcon styles. maybe 20gx isn't as optimal as it's made out to be. at least vs ganondorf.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

got 5th at the orlando monthly. plup 3-0'd hungrybox in first set of grand finals with sheik and then was up 2-0, but lost 3 games in a row. it was probably one of the hardest monthlies in florida aside from colbol being all about marth lately.

also i lost 2-1 to gahtzu again. same as last time. won on bf, lost on stadium and let it slip through my fingers. i've tested myself so much vs florida players and styles that i'm ridiculously hungry to see how i'll do vs other falcon styles. maybe 20gx isn't as optimal as it's made out to be. at least vs ganondorf.

Yea I saw him body you, you were playing pretty sus in that set. Everytime you lose I got a saying, It's "Aw man Eikelmann" #AwManEikelmann2015

 

[-ACE-]

got 5th at the orlando monthly. plup 3-0'd hungrybox in first set of grand finals with sheik and then was up 2-0, but lost 3 games in a row. it was probably one of the hardest monthlies in florida aside from colbol being all about marth lately.

also i lost 2-1 to gahtzu again. same as last time. won on bf, lost on stadium and let it slip through my fingers. i've tested myself so much vs florida players and styles that i'm ridiculously hungry to see how i'll do vs other falcon styles. maybe 20gx isn't as optimal as it's made out to be. at least vs ganondorf.

Nice man, it seems like the only thing holding you back from beating him is mindset. And I think you'll surprise quite a few falcons at Evo.

Plup's sheik is inhuman. What's the challonge? Where are the vids going?

 

[-ACE-]

@ PseudoTurtle

Bull**** tier: fox sheik

Tough tier: falcon jiggs falco

jv tough tier: marth peach

not quite even: samus pikachu

Even: ditto, ylink, link

Not quite even: Doc, mario, luigi, IC's, etc.

You are so right about pikachu. Not many people talk about it but I've thought that pika has an edge on Ganon for a while. I also don't think Ganon beats pichu by a large amount (edgeguarding pichu is sooo free compared to pika). Ganon doesn't have many hitboxes that reach low (low ftilt, dtilt, b-moves....) and all of them can be baited by characters that small/fast. Then they have nair, and reliable combos off throws, and many of their moves keep Ganon above them. The neutral game is super tough and important, the rest is straight forward. Edgeguarding pikachu often requires a read. Good defense and getting grabs is really important as usual imo.

 

[Bwmat]

plus look at that ftilt. throwing out grounded moves to bait approaches is great because there's always the chance they'll just run into your hitbox.

https://youtu.be/aZXHl5gvgdk?t=107
ftilt is so good

 

[PseudoTurtle]

https://youtu.be/aZXHl5gvgdk?t=107
ftilt is so good

LOL what do you keep nairing for?

 

[PseudoTurtle]

And Dave, I agree with everything you said. Edge guarding pikachu is extremely difficult. In my sets, I couldn't figure out the way to do it properly- I was treating it as if it were sheik, which didn't work because you CANNOT punish pikachu's landing lag with grab or jab. And since the landing lag is so low, aerials aren't that viable because of their long startup time.

I'm sure that'll change with matchup experience, but for now, it's something that I don't really know how to deal with safely.

Getting a grab on pikachu is ****ing hard as ****! I don't know how people do it. He can duck under it and he's so fast and always in the air. And shield grabs are a joke. I really didn't enjoy playing that matchup.

So far, my least favorite / worst matchups are:
1) falco
2) falco
3) pikachu
4) falco
5) peach

I would have included sheik, but I'm learning it. And sheiks who don't know the ganon matchup are actually pretty free. Lol whenever the video gets uploaded to youtube, there'll be a set where some fox main switched to sheik to "counterpick" me. It was a sad joke.

 

[-ACE-]

For Edgeguarding pika, uair >>>> anything else (unless of course they're at kill%), for the obvious semi-spike trajectory and multiple option coverage. Pika's that aren't good at sweetspotting with all angles are easier to punish via landing lag (you can act as if the ledge is covered and that will be enough for them to try to land safely on stage.

Luckily pika's nair approach is a bigger commitment than Fox's and he'll cross you up a good bit. Bairs oos have to be crisp, ff'd and L-cancelled. AC bair is so good.

 

[-ACE-]

unintentional double post

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Edge guarding pikachu is extremely difficult. In my sets, I couldn't figure out the way to do it properly- I was treating it as if it were sheik, which didn't work because you CANNOT punish pikachu's landing lag with grab or jab.

i've beaten a Pikachu called bonk in my region a few times. I believe he was on the Super Nebulus stream. Anyway, I figured out how to edgeguard him. What I did was stay on stage and try to predict when he would go for the ledge and when he would go on stage. If I predicted ledge, I would try to time my tipman for a sweetspot. If I predicted stage, I would put out a bair in the way of where I thought he was headed. Sometimes, they'll do that angle where they'll make you think they're going for the ledge but then they go straight up and fall to it. When that happens it's important to be on stage so you can get off a quick bair/ftilt. The most important thing is to maintain position. If you mess up edgeguarding him at the ledge, you can just keep him from getting back to center as Pikachu doesn't really have the range to challenge you from the ledge. So yeah, no wonder trying to edgeguard him like Sheik didn't work out lol.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

unintentional double post

Ayo is that @ -ACE- ?