Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[RedmanSSBM]

I need help with wavelanding with the Dorf, i just end up blocking at the end.

You mean shielding? Then you're holding L or R for too long.

 

[AquaBoogie]

yeah, im trying to stop doing that, im still getting used to the timing

 

[PseudoTurtle]

tap it quickly, like a wavedash. Like technical skill in general: it's tough at first, but muscle memory / recognition of the animation after a bit of practice. Not overly difficult.

In other news, I was messing around a little bit, practicing tech etc. and did the coolest ****ing thing ever. On battlefield:

RLD --> edge cancel dair --> quick DJ --> immediate waveland onto side platform --> moonwalk --> fair.

Jesus christ that's difficult to execute. @ spider_sense and @ Bizzarro Flame it's up to you guys. I honestly don't know if I'm technical enough to consistently get that down. Lol. But it's the coolest thing I've ever seen with ganon.

 

[Rugal Cuttah]

Ask any questions you want guys, the ganon metagame is pretty behind and I want to help out anyone i can with matchup strats or questions in general. Go for it.

Zoner like link give me trouble. I dont think gannon has anything to deal with strong range tools except to try to get in range with his own arsenal as soon as possible or get really good at smash parry(perfect timed guard) and slowly make your way to the strong ranged character. Do you have an answer to zoner problems/strong projectile heavy characters like star fox s laser gun or falco s? I m very interested to here your insight on this. I would help me a lot.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

@ Rugal Cuttah Link's projectiles can definitely be annoying but there are ways of getting around it. You can simply jump around them, shield them and then counter-attack with a wavedash out of shield, you can try to power shield his projectiles, and if you're so bold, you can try to catch Link's bombs and throw them back at him. You can also just jab his boomerang if you space your jab right.

I mentioned on the previous page about Falco's lasers and how they work on hit and on shield and explored some options through develop mode.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

@ RedmanSSBM - Here's my write up on you vs FlaminRoy

Downthrow to jab at low percents, it's an auto combo and can set you up for dair. Also, you gotta CC more of those hits. Your conversions off grabs have to get better, after that up throw. You can uair of f-tilt. Remember what Ace said about edge guarding the spacies. You can cover 2/3 options. Preferably you'd want to keep your back to him with uair/bair, If he does manage to grab the ledge. Space him out but keep him cornered, so be relentless with your aerials and tilts. It's actually very difficult for Fox to just get back on the stage without risk. You should do retreating dair when you're certain he's going to approach with a shine or grab. Another good way to feint would be to uair oos. It'll stop his nair approach a majority of the time. If he uairs you on the platform but you get up in time. You can grab that to downthrow, fall through the platform with bair or uair (depending on how they DI) If you need anything specific that you want answered then hmu.

I'm actually pretty sure down-throw to jab is not an auto-combo. If my opponent catches on they can just buffer roll away. You're right that I need to be on the ground more and CC more (I should also try to ASDI down more too). I gotta remember to not be hesitant or try to things to fast after a grab cause I drop a lot of opportunities that way. Retreating dair actually sounds like a good idea in some instances. The problem is if I whiff it then I will have a lot of lag even if I l-cancel it, so I should really only go for it if I know it will hit. Otherwise, it's better to do a falling AC retreating bair. I need to start upairing out of shield more haha. I just don't like shielding that much in the first place because Fox can run a train through my shield. I feel like even a nair out of shield could be useful... though I would have to try it out myself to really see.

I mostly would like to know if there's anything major that I'm still missing or still not doing that is crucial to the matchup, if not, then maybe point out some moments where a mixup would have been useful and why, what did my opponent do before that would call for that mixup... etc.

 

[NotaSkeleton]

I'm having a lot of trouble dealing with aggressive Falcos myself and I the post about the lasers didn't really help. I know you're supposed to powershield the lasers and punish off of that, but, I'm not consistent enough with those and I often just crouch cancel it instead, which is kind of bad.
I also find myself getting stuck in shield, without daring to really do anything. It seems everytime I try to wavedash out, I jump out of shield and get shined and whatnot. However, sometimes when he comes in with a nair, there seems to be a window for a jab right before the shine come out. It may just be due to the player timing though. Either way, any tips on how to deal with Falco approaches and pressure?
Should I go for hugsies maybe? Is that a valid strategy..?

 

[-ACE-]

tap it quickly, like a wavedash. Like technical skill in general: it's tough at first, but muscle memory / recognition of the animation after a bit of practice. Not overly difficult.

In other news, I was messing around a little bit, practicing tech etc. and did the coolest ****ing thing ever. On battlefield:

RLD --> edge cancel dair --> quick DJ --> immediate waveland onto side platform --> moonwalk --> fair.

Jesus christ that's difficult to execute. @ spider_sense and @ Bizzarro Flame it's up to you guys. I honestly don't know if I'm technical enough to consistently get that down. Lol. But it's the coolest thing I've ever seen with ganon.

Vid please. I've tried this 100x in the past and can't get to forward fast enough after going forward and then back for the RLD (so my jump doesn't travel far enough horizontally for Ganon to be over the plat). I can waveland regularly off the ledge and dj WL onto the plat but always fumbled it from RLD.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

I'm actually pretty sure down-throw to jab is not an auto-combo.

It definitely is. At low percents, you can do a lot of funny stuff with it too because it doesn't knock them down. For instance: jab --> re grab, jab --> dash attack --> tilt (I LOVE this combo. Leads to tech chases at lower percents, too.), jab --> jab, jab --> d tilt.

All of the above are true combos depending on their DI.

Vid please. I've tried this 100x in the past and can't get to forward fast enough after going forward and then back for the RLD (so my jump doesn't travel far enough horizontally for Ganon to be over the plat). I can waveland regularly off the ledge and dj WL onto the plat but always fumbled it from RLD.

Will do. One sec. It'll be ****ty quality though, hope that's cool.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Here you go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wq4YQjPhE0&t=0m16s

Calling the Jasons again. You know what to do.

edit: sorry for the horizontal flip, I recorded it with my webcam. Also lol at my cat in the background.

edit 2: YO I just thought of something. Imagine stomping a fast faller near the edge with that and then tech chasing them with the fair! How sick would that be?!

 

[spider_sense]

I'm actually pretty sure down-throw to jab is not an auto-combo. If my opponent catches on they can just buffer roll away. You're right that I need to be on the ground more and CC more (I should also try to ASDI down more too). I gotta remember to not be hesitant or try to things to fast after a grab cause I drop a lot of opportunities that way. Retreating dair actually sounds like a good idea in some instances. The problem is if I whiff it then I will have a lot of lag even if I l-cancel it, so I should really only go for it if I know it will hit. Otherwise, it's better to do a falling AC retreating bair. I need to start upairing out of shield more haha. I just don't like shielding that much in the first place because Fox can run a train through my shield. I feel like even a nair out of shield could be useful... though I would have to try it out myself to really see.

I mostly would like to know if there's anything major that I'm still missing or still not doing that is crucial to the matchup, if not, then maybe point out some moments where a mixup would have been useful and why, what did my opponent do before that would call for that mixup... etc.

lol Yeah you can jab immediately after down-throw, maybe not starting from base 0% but around 10% its definitely applicable. (I could still be wrong tho) You actually have the match up down dude, you just have to be aware that you can CC and develop a stronger ground game. Don't be afraid to uair out of your shield; think of it more like a reversal on incoming approaches. I think the worst case scenario you'll trade which (depending on percents of course) I'll give you more details on after I find a better computer to type on. haha

Has ANYBODY been messing with the insta-shield jump uairs? Call me insane but I feel like this would be a great way to shut down spacies approach and be able to punish their get up attack. (Inputs - while running tap up with the c-stick along with the shield button and then immediately flick the c-stick back up again for the uair) This also gives your fingers alot leniency, because you're not moving your fingers to tap the x/y. At least, that how I feel about it anyways.

 

[-ACE-]

Oh yeah that's fine, I've considered this the holy grail of techs for some time now. You are THE first Ganon to do it and so far the only one that can.

I REALLY wish I could master RLD to dj platform dash (waveland on lower platform) on BF but it takes SWD-like speed with the joystick and very precise timing with R/L.

http://youtu.be/JNowu9dQE6Y#t=0m25s

If that link doesn't work just go to 25 seconds... This is just the waveland, I've never done it out of RLD. BUT I WILL

Grrrr..... lol. That link doesn't work but it only had me wavelanding off the ledge and onto the plat.

OK...... still bada$s but without the edge cancel it's harder. Nice though man!

 

[spider_sense]

lol Yeah you can jab immediately after down-throw, maybe not starting from base 0% but around 10% its definitely applicable. (I could still be wrong tho) You actually have the match up down dude, you just have to be aware that you can CC and develop a stronger ground game. Don't be afraid to uair out of your shield; think of it more like a reversal on incoming approaches. I think the worst case scenario you'll trade which (depending on percents of course) I'll give you more details on after I find a better computer to type on. haha

Has ANYBODY been messing with the insta-shield jump uairs? Call me insane but I feel like this would be a great way to shut down spacies approach and be able to punish their get up attack. (Inputs - while running tap up with the c-stick along with the shield button and then immediately flick the c-stick back up again for the uair) This also gives your fingers alot leniency, because you're not moving your fingers to tap the x/y. At least, that how I feel about it anyways.

**** this computer I wanted to tag @ -ACE- Yeah I managed to do that but only with uair. Psuedo is getting pretty godlike with tech skill. Personally I've been messing with pivot tilts/jabs, shield drops, running shield drops, pivot running shield drops, and insta shield jumping. Personally that tech I don't think has any practical uses; I've actually can side-b ledge cancel off the ledge itself now. It's stupidly risky but looks oh so swag.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I'm having a lot of trouble dealing with aggressive Falcos myself and I the post about the lasers didn't really help. I know you're supposed to powershield the lasers and punish off of that, but, I'm not consistent enough with those and I often just crouch cancel it instead, which is kind of bad.
I also find myself getting stuck in shield, without daring to really do anything. It seems everytime I try to wavedash out, I jump out of shield and get shined and whatnot. However, sometimes when he comes in with a nair, there seems to be a window for a jab right before the shine come out. It may just be due to the player timing though. Either way, any tips on how to deal with Falco approaches and pressure?
Should I go for hugsies maybe? Is that a valid strategy..?

Just be a bit more patient man. Wait until the shine hits your shield and for most Falcos you can just roll out of the way after that happens.

@ PseudoTurtle That tech is pretty cool, but I'm not sure about the practicality of it. Even with the dair tech-chase that you mentioned, I believe that is too slow and Fox/Falco will be able to shield or just get out of there in time. This is a really cool situational mixup though, I'd like to see you pull it off in tournament.

@ spider_sense Okay thanks for that. I guess I could definitely do dthrow to jab until it starts knocking down, and then I can probably start chain grab attempts. Gotta keep remembering that haha. I often forget. Maybe I'm a little too slow on the grab after I jab.. idk how I'm not making it guaranteed, but I'll try to pay more attention to it next time I play.

 

[spider_sense]

Just be a bit more patient man. Wait until the shine hits your shield and for most Falcos you can just roll out of the way after that happens.

@ PseudoTurtle That tech is pretty cool, but I'm not sure about the practicality of it. Even with the dair tech-chase that you mentioned, I believe that is too slow and Fox/Falco will be able to shield or just get out of there in time. This is a really cool situational mixup though, I'd like to see you pull it off in tournament.

@ spider_sense Okay thanks for that. I guess I could definitely do dthrow to jab until it starts knocking down, and then I can probably start chain grab attempts. Gotta keep remembering that haha. I often forget. Maybe I'm a little too slow on the grab after I jab.. idk how I'm not making it guaranteed, but I'll try to pay more attention to it next time I play.

Mash dat A button baby. Also if you're going to start chaingrabbing start doing it on platforms too.

 

[Coastward]

Here you go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wq4YQjPhE0&t=0m16s

Calling the Jasons again. You know what to do.

edit: sorry for the horizontal flip, I recorded it with my webcam. Also lol at my cat in the background.

edit 2: YO I just thought of something. Imagine stomping a fast faller near the edge with that and then tech chasing them with the fair! How sick would that be?!

****, this makes me wanna get RLD down 100% now. that looked sick as ****.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

@ -ACE- yea man, its MUCH easier with the edge cancel. I've landed on the plat before after an RLD (no edge cancel) though, but never on purpose. So its possible, but I've never actually done it. Way too tricky.

There's a work around though, honestly. You can just ledge hop, run off and immediately Waveland onto the platform. Work that into a moonwalk and you have my tech without the edge cancel. RLD is of course the fastest though, so that's the end goal.

Spidey and Locke: yea, not too many uses. The situation I described is kinda the only potential use and its still not really optimal because if you got the stomp, you could just bair and set up for an edge guard. Lol it just looks cool, that's it.

Your quick shield up air thing sounds real nice though. It could stop me from up smashing when I hit the c stick too quickly after pushing y. Not that that happens super often or anything, but could be useful there too.

Coast: right?!? If you land that in tournament, I think your opponent should just give you the win out of sheer respect

 

[PseudoTurtle]

YO! I just got it without the edge cancel. ****, that's hard... It's like the samus super wavedash

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

Took me a little while, but I got it with the edge cancel. Thanks for finding this Pseudo! This is sick.

I'm still trying to do it without edge cancel.

 

[-ACE-]

Joe putting in work!

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Dubbing this the pseudo dash

Edit: also, if y'all aren't doing anything, tune into twitch.tv/windycitysmash. Renth and I are in chat. Big Chi-FL matches going on!

 

[Coastward]

its not really a dash though, since there are mutliple things happening. you suck at naming conventions

call it, "Pseudo Action +", or "Mighty Pseudo Whirl"

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Lol call if what you want dude, I'm just ****ing around. It's pretty doubtful that it'll ever really be used in tournament.

 

[Coastward]

who knows, maybe bizz will pull it off on someone.

im gonna go practice it myself, gonna try to style on some nerds with it this week.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Lol yea, I say it'll never be used and I'm forgetting we got Bizzarro Flame. The RLD without edge cancel might actually be useful too. If I could do that consistently, that would be amazing. Then couple it with the moonwalk and you got style

 

[Bwmat]

I'm bad enough at rld, but throw in a ledge cancel + what seems to be a pivot jump and then moonwalk... even if I practiced, I would still have like a <20% success rate.

I can't even moonwalk lol.

I think I need to grind more.

 

[Bwmat]

Also, one thing I wanted to ask you guys about, I've been having trouble with my ledge drop uairs (Eikel-drops?)). Most of the time my up-b is too low for me to recover.

How many frames margin of error do you have for this? It doesn't seem like it should be that tight, but I just can't get it right.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Keep practicing man, everything kinda clicks eventually. Also, there's a good amount of leniency with the eikeldrop. You can actually land back on stage after it too

 

[Bwmat]

really??

wow, I must really be mistiming something.

edit: Also, I've been playing competitively for like 8 years, and at least 4 of 5 years of that has been ganon. I don't know, maybe eventually... I've resigned myself to a life of >10% flub rate on like everything, especially the stuff that flubbing gets me killed. I'm just trying to keep it to the low end of the spectrum.

I SD at least once every set ever, usually 1-2 a set, and it's not unusual for me to sd 2-3 times in a single match. I joke that I would be first on PR if I never SD'd, and I almost believe it.

 

[Coastward]

k i was only able to do the Pseudo Super Technique once within an hour lol.

looks cool as **** though, i really wanna try to get it down.

 

[Yort]

I need help with wavelanding with the Dorf, i just end up blocking at the end.

Then you also probably need help wavedashing as well.

Just release the trigger fast enough and you won't shield, also experiment with holding shield after a waveland. I think you should also practice double jump fastfall waveland onto the ground, it will help you learn the timing lots.

Edit: Late response for some reason my smashboards bugged and this post was the most recent one.

 

[AquaBoogie]

yeah, im trying to stop doing that, im still getting used to the timing

Then you also probably need help wavedashing as well.

Just release the trigger fast enough and you won't shield, also experiment with holding shield after a waveland. I think you should also practice double jump fastfall waveland onto the ground, it will help you learn the timing lots.

Edit: Late response for some reason my smashboards bugged and this post was the most recent one.

Yeah, im trying to get used to tapping the shield button, ill try practicing that way, and my smashboards does that occasionally

 

[Orah]

Dubbing this the pseudo dash

Edit: also, if y'all aren't doing anything, tune into twitch.tv/windycitysmash. Renth and I are in chat. Big Chi-FL matches going on!

What about the Pseudo Crush? b/c of the dair and the fair.

 

[Duel]

You don't have to PS the second laser, you asdi straight down and mash jab. It should come out on first available frame if I'm not mistaken.

Are you saying that you can get a jab on falco after falco's second laser when he's recovering onto the stage? I have been really struggling with SHDL in this MU.

 

[-ACE-]

Are you saying that you can get a jab on falco after falco's second laser when he's recovering onto the stage? I have been really struggling with SHDL in this MU.

No, you jab between the lasers.

 

[Duel]

No, you jab between the lasers.

Oh alright, hold down on the first laser, jab?

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

k i was only able to do the Pseudo Super Technique once within an hour lol.

looks cool as **** though, i really wanna try to get it down.

Is that with the ledge cancel or without the ledge cancel?

I don't have the one without ledge cancel down yet, but I can do the one with the ledge cancel with some consistency.

The trick with the one without ledge cancel is to double jump immediately after (like 1-3 frames window) after the RLD. You can tell if you double jumped in time if you stand on top of the side platform after double jump.

 

[Coastward]

Is that with the ledge cancel or without the ledge cancel?

I don't have the one without ledge cancel down yet, but I can do the one with the ledge cancel with some consistency.

with ledge cancel, gonna practice more today and actually try without ledge cancel.

 

[-ACE-]

Oh alright, hold down on the first laser, jab?

You can crouch (flick down fast as fvck), let go and jab, OR you can crouch, roll to down+away and jab (not on every controller in my experience).

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

^ the latter one works the best! I recommend every Ganon player to learn to run up and cancel out your run animation with a down + away jab.