Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[gmBottles]

LOL The Rock Transformation is one of my most hated transformations and I did not want to challenge a Falcon on that transformation at all. I just kept pressing A while on the ledge to keep doing getup attack. I love how the commentators thought that was some "20XX Ganon specific tech" when it's just really basic haha. I'm not fully invincible for it, but by the time I'm vulnerable, I'm already sliding off the ledge and going downwards, so it's a silly gimmick that worked in this scenario. I hadn't done that in tournament before but it was kind of funny to do anyway haha.

I do this all the time with Bowser. It's super safe and it gives me time to think. I don't think it's fully invincible but with Boozer's <100% getup attack the hitbox stays out pretty much the whole time. That's funny that they though it only works with Ganon, I'm pretty sure everyone can do it, right?

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Also Locke, in the set vs flamingroy....

At 2:18 and 5:40... those up-b's need to be punched. Sometimes taking the ledge cab really limit your options. He would either up-b like this or side-b onto stage at a height that could easily be jabbed, ftilted, or onstage bair'd. I saw a time when you went for a stomp techchase after reading the roll toward the ledge. Gotta fair that ****. Get him off stage. Getting crazy with gimps is the future.

Flamingroy has years of experience vs Ganon. No slouch.

I try not to be too ambitious with going off stage vs Fox cause I know if I miss and he makes it back to the stage then he gets a free edgeguard on me. I do see what you mean though, I could have easily ledge-hopped dashed off and did a fair, but I was afraid I wouldn't have done it fast enough to just straight up beat the firefox. I'll have to test this in develop mode to see how much of a frame window I have if the Fox starts up-bing at that same position when I'm grabbing the ledge. I know an upair would be faster, but I feel like the fair would cover him going to the edge. I'll do some tests for sure. If the frames look in my favor, then I'll have more confidence to go for it. It is interesting that I easily commit to grabbing the ledge in almost every scenario that FlaminRoy recognized that and just waited for me to get off the ledge cause he knew I would let go. It would have been hella swag if I reacted to his firefox to the ledge at 5:40 and just wavedash fastfall to grab the ledge before he does, but I'll have to test that as well to see how reactable it is.

 

[-ACE-]

Low ftilt won't hit a dj sweetspot. Uair can hit but the spacing has to be precise. Dair is just easy. Always face away, towards the center of the stage. The center of the hitbox is at ganon's heel.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I do this all the time with Bowser. It's super safe and it gives me time to think. I don't think it's fully invincible but with Boozer's <100% getup attack the hitbox stays out pretty much the whole time. That's funny that they though it only works with Ganon, I'm pretty sure everyone can do it, right?

I think Falcon and maybe Marth can do it too. I'll have to check for funsies haha

 

[Coastward]

@ RedmanSSBM so getup attack on the rock kinda acts like RLD with invincibility almost? i kinda want to try this in tourney now.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Low ftilt won't hit a dj sweetspot. Uair can hit but the spacing has to be precise. Dair is just easy. Always face away, towards the center of the stage. The center of the hitbox is at ganon's heel.

Okay, so if I know he's going to DJ sweetspot (or any character for that matter, which characters would this not work on?) then I should just hard commit to this dairing of the ledge? I could pivot dair and that'd be hella swag. I get the feeling that if I mis-time it or mis-space it that the character can just ledgehop and hit me even if I l-cancel the dair. Again, just more things I could test

 

[-ACE-]

You could just fj fair at both 2:18 and 5:40. Remember lots of spacies don't sweespot until you show them that the other options are unsafe.

 

[gmBottles]

I think Falcon and maybe Marth can do it too. I'll have to check for funsies haha

I know Jigglypuff can too. Now that I think about it, some characters don't grab the ledge after and they fall off.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

@ RedmanSSBM so getup attack on the rock kinda acts like RLD with invincibility almost? i kinda want to try this in tourney now.

Sort of? It's just stupid easy. You just press A every time you are grabbing the ledge and the rest of the work is done for you. If you want to try it, by all means, go ahead, but don't be surprised if someone figures it out quickly and punishes you when you're not invincible. Hell, you could probably mix it up and if you bait him to gt close to you, you could normal ledgehop and grab him or something, like a spider-trap haha

 

[-ACE-]

Depending on their DJ animation, uair can be easy or hard. I don't know about character-specific, but dair hardly ever whiffs as it reaches lower than anything else. L-cancel and you can be ready for pretty much anything, except for like walltech-bair in dittos (in which case you'd just uair lol).

The whole reason I mention the dair is, people that are offstage often get the ledge for free with a dj sweespot. It's quick, easy, and hard to cover, but if you read it, dair works every time. I'm inclined to believe uair works on almost every character if spaced perfectly, but I preach using dair in this situation simply because it doesn't whiff.

 

[AquaBoogie]

its crazy that something so simple can be so useful

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Yo in amsterdam u'll have former ganons who switched, like faab and ace but they prolly wont play ganondawg. Try to hit them and amsah up too for housing, most of them are chill and really welcoming, otherwise for i guess ganondorf action come to france and go through Qlex, Pandasoldier and I :} what cities/countries and tournaments are you checkin out ?

Ps : be careful in amsterdam they'll try to make you switch to fox and falco, for hours

Yo we should play. I made a post in the NLSmash group so hmu.

I'm only going to be in Amsterdam and just until the 23rd. I don't need housing, just a place to play as I'm obviously not going to be able to host.

And I'm never switching to spacies lol mine are ass. If they forced a switch it'd be to Marth.

 

[-ACE-]

Have fun in Amsterdam lol. I'm jealous, I want to body that other Ace that plays Ganon lmao.

 

[Coastward]

Have fun in Amsterdam lol. I'm jealous, I want to body that other Ace that plays Ganon lmao.

tag battle? lmao

 

[PseudoTurtle]

@ X WaNtEd X Amsterdam is a ****ing sick city dude. Enjoy yourself... Don't get too caught up in smash haha, make sure you take the time to explore the city.

Notable coffee shops are the bulldog (I think there's like three of them), Barney's coffeeshop (suuuuuper old building with good food selection too), and Abraxas (near the red light district and my personal favorite). The staff are really chill here. I got told by this French girl that I have a very strong accent lmao I'm like ***** English is my native language.

Which hostel are you staying at? I stayed at Bob's... Got paid 10 Euro to translate Spanish from some teenage Spaniards to a very annoyed Hostel owner haha.

I went with a few of my buddies, it was a great time. I compared the red light district (or... RLD, if you will) to the las Vegas of Europe- hookers, casinos and junk food everywhere.

And, this might be obvious to you, but don't buy any of the drugs from the random drug dealers on the street (they're EVERYWHERE), their **** is pretty much bunk and they'll overcharge and underweigh you. Stick with the coffeeshop bud.

I'm gonna make it a priority to go back there within the next 5 years or so.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

@ PseudoTurtle Haha don't worry I'm mainly going there to have a good time. I'm gonna dedicate like one day to smash and that's it.

Thanks for the advice. I'm planning on the coffee shops and rld (lol) so what you said should come in handy

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Awesome dude. You're making me really jealous haha, have an awesome time.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Back on the topic of smash: we need to talk about edge guarding. At that tournament I was at the other day, I was playing a couple of lower-mid level players and one of them said "wow, you make ganon look GOOD at edge guarding." and while flattering,

a) No I don't. Lol. I remember clearly, the kid I was playing against made unsafe recovery choices, for example, leaving him with two options, of which both I could cover. I actually kinda suck at edge guarding, but I'm working on it.

b) Ganon IS good at edge guarding. He has the tools to SAFELY cover 2/3 options most of the time and a lot of them can actually be executed based on reaction.

Even Kage / Linguini never brought ganon to his full edge guarding potential back in the day IMO. I think they had a good level of success because they were able to read the recovery patterns of their opponents, but they didn't necessarily go for the optimal option. I realize it's hard to be perfect with it because, well, it's tough. But it's doable.

Right now, I feel that the best edge guarding ganondorfs are Bizzarro (except vs. ganon because style) and Renth. After watching Bizz at Golden Bair 2, he really capitalizes on almost ALL gimp opportunities with jabs, tilts and bairs / reverse up airs against fox. Watch his set vs. Toph and see how he really does cover almost all the options when he's edge guarding. More than once, Toph died at <50% because of how he reacted and the moves he chose.

Successful edge guards win sets. Imagine getting the KO every time you knock your opponent off stage (which is, like, 80%) instead of relying on the fair at 150%. Just sayin'

 

[Coastward]

Back on the topic of smash: we need to talk about edge guarding. At that tournament I was at the other day, I was playing a couple of lower-mid level players and one of them said "wow, you make ganon look GOOD at edge guarding." and while flattering,

a) No I don't. Lol. I remember clearly, the kid I was playing against made unsafe recovery choices, for example, leaving him with two options, of which both I could cover. I actually kinda suck at edge guarding, but I'm working on it.

b) Ganon IS good at edge guarding. He has the tools to SAFELY cover 2/3 options most of the time and a lot of them can actually be executed based on reaction.

Even Kage / Linguini never brought ganon to his full edge guarding potential back in the day IMO. I think they had a good level of success because they were able to read the recovery patterns of their opponents, but they didn't necessarily go for the optimal option. I realize it's hard to be perfect with it because, well, it's tough. But it's doable.

Right now, I feel that the best edge guarding ganondorfs are Bizzarro (except vs. ganon because style) and Renth. After watching Bizz at Golden Bair 2, he really capitalizes on almost ALL gimp opportunities with jabs, tilts and bairs / reverse up airs against fox. Watch his set vs. Toph and see how he really does cover almost all the options when he's edge guarding. More than once, Toph died at <50% because of how he reacted and the moves he chose.

Successful edge guards win sets. Imagine getting the KO every time you knock your opponent off stage (which is, like, 80%) instead of relying on the fair at 150%. Just sayin'

even when i watch bizz sometimes, there are still plenty of things he can do to improve his edgeguarding. he tends to uair spike a lot, but sometimes he puts his hurtbox out too far and collides with firefox and it just resets back to fox on the ledge. i never get why some ganons just dont go for a deep fair or dair when a space animal is recovering, its just so free.

also, i know that feel of people complimenting my edgeguarding even though its so ass.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Yeah edgeguarding is definitely something I pride myself on because I usually am very on point with my edgeguards, and a lot of people comment about them not making it back to the stage when I have them off. There are still some stupid things that I'm falling for against spacies (like ledge-hop double laser from falco and ledge-hop drill from Fox) but I would like to work on a way that I can quickly put myself in an advantageous position to be able to edgeguard easily for each of the matchups. I might even make a guide on how to edgeguard each Match up (or at least that would be fun to do haha)

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Coast, I actually do agree with that, I was just saying in general, he seems like he's the best at it. But yea, I think bair is actually better in a lot of situations because of the lack of trading. I guess up air may be better vs falco because it has higher range and also, falco's recovery sucks, so if you trade it doesn't really matter.

Locke, already been done man. Check the forums. It's just that's incomplete and might be slightly outdated, so I wanted to get a discussion going here.

 

[-ACE-]

Yeah I can update that existing edgeguarding thread, it's been waiting for a good discussion lol. But that being said, it has a lot of stuff that is still often overlooked.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Oh yeah you're right I forgot haha. It is a bit outdated though... or I could be wrong about that.

 

[-ACE-]

Feel free to pick it apart (anyone). I'll change it as necessary after some discussion.

 

[Coastward]

last time i read it over, i felt it was still up to date. i think id need a lot of free time to dissect it.

also, shoutouts to us being the most active melee character board

 

[-ACE-]

The G boards kick a$s.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

I didn't mean outdated as some of that stuff doesn't work anymore, rather that there are now more techniques that can be used for edge guarding purposes... that's all. I've figured out some cool stuff for some of the more unconventional characters (Samus, DK, etc.)

 

[AquaBoogie]

I just Falco mastered Falco with Ganondorfs down B

 

[-ACE-]

I just Falco mastered Falco with Ganondorfs down B

Not sure what that means but it sounds great! Lmao

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I feel like the Ganon boards are the equivalent of what the Florida Falcons are doing to try to advance Falcon's meta. Though we don't have a stream, I feel like we share the same spirit about our characters

 

[Coastward]

I feel like the Ganon boards are the equivalent of what the Florida Falcons are doing to try to advance Falcon's meta. Though we don't have a stream, I feel like we share the same spirit about our characters

you're stream kinda counts, we're just not all in the same room.

 

[spider_sense]

Nah Ganon sucks.

 

[dERO!]

he's just too fat

also for months i've been sandbaging double lasers from falco on the ledge trying to ps the second one and I finally kinda got the hang of it, feel so relieved i almost never tried that long for something small

 

[spider_sense]

he's just too fat

also for months i've been sandbaging double lasers from falco on the ledge trying to ps the second one and I finally kinda got the hang of it, feel so relieved i almost never tried that long for something small

You don't have to PS the second laser, you asdi straight down and mash jab. It should come out on first available frame if I'm not mistaken.

 

[spider_sense]

@ RedmanSSBM - Here's my write up on you vs FlaminRoy

Downthrow to jab at low percents, it's an auto combo and can set you up for dair. Also, you gotta CC more of those hits. Your conversions off grabs have to get better, after that up throw. You can uair of f-tilt. Remember what Ace said about edge guarding the spacies. You can cover 2/3 options. Preferably you'd want to keep your back to him with uair/bair, If he does manage to grab the ledge. Space him out but keep him cornered, so be relentless with your aerials and tilts. It's actually very difficult for Fox to just get back on the stage without risk. You should do retreating dair when you're certain he's going to approach with a shine or grab. Another good way to feint would be to uair oos. It'll stop his nair approach a majority of the time. If he uairs you on the platform but you get up in time. You can grab that to downthrow, fall through the platform with bair or uair (depending on how they DI) If you need anything specific that you want answered then hmu.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Alright guys, I'm going to post a bunch of frame data stuff that I think you might find useful.

If you take a Falco laser to the face you are in hitlag for 4 frames followed by 10 frames of hitstun for a total of 14 frames.
If you take a Falco laser to your shield you are in hitlag for 4 frames followed by 3 frames of shieldstun for a total of 7 frames.

I'm almost thinking that always shielding/PS attempting Falco's laser is better than just getting hit by them. Sure you don't have a lot of options out of shield... hmm let me explore that.

So if you buffer a roll out of shield, the only thing that Falco can follow up with after a close laser on you is a shine, and that's if it's the lowest and best possible laser. If he nairs it will not hit not matter what. Kind of sucks though cause if Falco commits to the laser shine on your shield and it's a perfect laser, he can shine you if you buffer roll. Now, if you hold your shield and wait for him to shine, and THEN buffer a JUMP out of shield, then.... you will still get shine grabbed if he is frame perfect.... If you buffer a ROLL out of shield after the shine, then.... you just BARELY do not get shine grabbed by 2 frames. If Falco frame perfect double shines your shield, and if you try to buffer a roll after the first shine, you will get hit by the second shine guaranteed if frame perfect.

In short, Falco's shield pressure game is pretty butt. Buffer roll too strong lmao. I'm sure that if the Falco hard reads your roll though then he could capitalize on it... I think. I definitely think a buffer Dair out of shield is viable cause there are very few Falcos who are frame perfect. This all gives me ideas on how to deal with Falco's lasers in neutral and staying on the ground.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

So if I start ledge-hopping the frame after Fox starts up-bing in the same position that FlaminRoy was at 2:18 in my match vs him, then I have to delay my fair by 5 frames after leaving the ground from jumping in order to cover him going for the ledge with the fair and FFing appropriately. So basically, if I anticipate that Fox will up-b at that specific height and length away from the stage, a fair will hit... but let me see if an upair will hit Fox before he even launches.... nope. Not nearly far enough.

How about a ledge-hop to short-hop bair? Can that beat Fox before he launches? Well... no. But if you time the bair right and FF, you can cover a low angle to the ledge with that as well.

What about RLD to DJ bair? Very close, but not before he launches. If you delay the DJ for like 6 or 7 frames after the RLD, and bair as you're rising with the DJ and keep holding towards Fox, then it covers every angle that he tries for haha.

What about RLD to DJ upair? Similar to bair, but with bair I tested the high angle since bair aims low and bair still hit the high angle, but I tested the low angle for upair and upair missed. So bair covers all of the options. RLDing is definitely a lot closer but you use your double jump in the process. I only recommend doing this when they look like they are a little further away than if you could hit them with a short hop bair or fair. I just don't think upair is fast enough or hits in the right places for it to really be useful here if you want to cover every option and close the gap.

How many frames do you have to react if you just ledge hop when Fox up-bs, wait, and then wavedash FF to the ledge AFTER he starts launching to the ledge? Can I make it in time before he grabs it?... No. But if you anticipate it roughly 5 or 6 frames before he launches, then you will definitely grab the ledge before he does. This absolutely can be an excellent mindgame and it's not even hard to do. I'm 99% sure the Fox will not be able to react in time with changing his angle if you do this as a mixup.


Also...

Fuuuuuck yessssssss.

 

[AquaBoogie]

Not sure what that means but it sounds great! Lmao

to falco master is when someone gets spiked by falcos down aerial at a perfect 45 degree angle. He went to recover when i was recovering, we intercepted at my down b and he went flying downwards at a 45 degree angle, it was kind of like a reverse wizard foot spike

 

[-ACE-]

Attempting to PS lasers is always good. If you really focus on every laser and practice PS'ing them, they eventually seem slower and it gets easier.

Just shielding them is good too, and wd'ing oos immediately limits Falco's opportunities to set up easy, well-spaced approaches. You could even shield DI them.

If you are in the air and you get hit, you can at least SDI them to improve your positioning a tad.

 

[AquaBoogie]

I need help with wavelanding with the Dorf, i just end up blocking at the end.