Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Coastward]

WHOA BIZZ HAS BLESSED US WITH A POST!!!

 

[-ACE-]

Down-smash sucks against someone well-versed against Ganon because they will either SDI the first hit to avoid the second hit or combo DI the second hit.

Also, Ganondorf usually has to face away from his opponent after the up-air reset, so a down smash would not work in terms of timing. For example, if the opponent get-up attacks after being Tipman resetted, then it will likely clink with the second hit of the down smash.

No need to SDI to get out of the dsmash, ASDI or a simple cc works too. As far as combo DI'ing the second hit, if they're going to take 2 strong hits like that you've done alright chasing the tech.

Could you not pivot? Just saying. That's a very situational scenario.

 

[-ACE-]

BTW... Might definitely moving to south Florida soon. See yall n!gga$ in a month!

 

[RedmanSSBM]

@ -ACE- Dammit come through Charlotte sometime

 

[-ACE-]

@ -ACE- Dammit come through Charlotte sometime

More like, come chill on my couch and play with me Jason and Michelangelo.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

More like, come chill on my couch and play with me Jason and Michelangelo.

Will you be at CEO again?

 

[-ACE-]

Will you be at CEO again?

At this point I'd say definitely.

 

[Renth]

http://www.twitch.tv/hungrybox/v/3843464

50:30 is sick but...

50:44 if that hit...

IF THAT HIT..

WHY DID I HAVE TO MISS UGH

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

what is the ideal way to maneuver with ganon on FD? Do I DD camp? Do I bait out? Do I wave land alot? I would also like to know how to maneuver against a falco on FD

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Guys, I'm reading through the Ganon boards and it's occurred to me that there's some serious **** that's wrong here.

It's been emphasized by Kage and other top Ganon players that knowing what works at what percent is paramount for succeeding with Ganon. Yet, we don't have any conclusive guide for percents and general combos. Sure, we have Locke's knockdown data and an extensive tech chasing guide (thanks Ace). But these two guides really only play into...tech chasing. I was watching Kage's stream the other day, and he was talking about certain combos as if it was common knowledge. For example, I saw a fair into a fair at one point that was pointed out to be guaranteed and it blew my mind as to how someone would know that would work in that specific instance.

I'm realizing that I have a vague knowledge of what works at certain percents outside of grabs and obvious followups that come from moves like dair and dtilt. So, I'm trying to make an effort to compile a list of combos I can do on certain characters based on percent and DI. I'm finding this really hard because unlike most character boards where you can read guides that cover these sorts of things, just about everything is in this one ****ing thread. And it's pretty hard to tell if some of the information is true or not based on the nonchalant nature and tone of the posts here. That also goes for videos. I can watch plenty of Ganon videos, take notes to figure out some followups. But a lot of combos that I see I'm not sure are true combos, the result of a mistake, or dependent on DI.

I, and I'm sure other Ganons, would appreciate some sort of general guide that covered followups based on the move, percent, character, and DI. Before someone says, "It's all in this thread, stop being lazy," I feel as if it's unreasonable to expect people to sift through ~400 pages of material just to figure out some combos that don't involve tech chasing. At the very least, I'd just like the valuable information regarding combos in this thread organized into a new thread or something. I really wish I was a better player, because then I would knowledge drop a bunch of **** like this in a new thread. But unfortunately, the best I can do is just voice my concerns and hope that a more knowledgeable player does something.

tl;dr Someone please make a combo thread for Ganon that covers followups outside of tech chases on the common characters. This is cute, but it doesn't count.

 

[Divinokage]

Guys, I'm reading through the Ganon boards and it's occurred to me that there's some serious **** that's wrong here.

It's been emphasized by Kage and other top Ganon players that knowing what works at what percent is paramount for succeeding with Ganon. Yet, we don't have any conclusive guide for percents and general combos. Sure, we have Locke's knockdown data and an extensive tech chasing guide (thanks Ace). But these two guides really only play into...tech chasing. I was watching Kage's stream the other day, and he was talking about certain combos as if it was common knowledge. For example, I saw a fair into a fair at one point that was pointed out to be guaranteed and it blew my mind as to how someone would know that would work in that specific instance.

It's not guaranteed, you just need to read the DI after the hit. =P

 

[RedmanSSBM]

@ X WaNtEd X As much as that sounds like a great idea, (and it is, believe me) the amount of effort and time you would have to put into such a guide is astoundingly large. You're talking about the time it takes to look at every single percent, every single one of Ganon's moves and spacings, every single possible direction of DI and SDI, and every character's hitstun that their in based on their weight, falling speed, and how fresh or stale your move is. Trust me, that's enough variables to make this guide overwhelmingly long and possibly even over-complicated.

If you really want to see if something is a guaranteed combo, you can go into the develop mode of 20XX through the debug menu and you can pause and progress one frame at a time when doing a combo to see if it's true or not. You can use two controllers at once to do this (one controller for Ganon doing a move and the other to have the opponent character DI or tech) and you can clearly see the frame that they get out of hitstun because if you turn on the frame data by hitting Y and down on the d-pad during a match, you see what the name of the animation that plays when you're in hitsun and when you're in tumble. You got to get familiar with just how much hitstun your opponent is in when you do an attack on them, and then the first frame they get out of that hitstun what's the fastest attack that they can do.

Basically what I'm trying to say is if you want the information to find out what combos and what doesn't, you need to do the information yourself because no one is going to spoon-feed it to you. If you want to post your findings you're more than welcome to, and it's even encouraged. But trust me when I say that when you learn things through trying them out yourself you'll understand it so much better because you're experiencing it for yourself. I used to be a bit skeptical about the extra 10 frames of invincibility that Ganon can get from reverse sweet-spoting the ledge with up-b until I tried it out for myself in develop mode. The tools are all there, you just have to put in effort to get the information that you want.

 

[tm]

What Locke said. Anytime I'm curious about a combo or setup that I haven't thought about before, I'll test it in debug mode with whatever combinations of % / DI / characters that I'm interested in, but it would take a huge amount of time with a lot of collaboration to get an 'extensive guide' of these, and once you had one you wouldn't know what to learn first. Stuff like that is best learned through playing and getting an intuitive sense of how much hitstun every attack does vs the different character weights at what %, and if there's something that you haven't come across but you are curious about, test that or ask around about it.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Agreed with kage. Since ganon hits so hard, it's about reading DI. Usually, after a hit, the hit stun coupled with the ending lag from your move is such that you have plenty of time to react, unlike, say fox, where certain percents yield certain combos.

That isn't to say percent is unimportant- it most definitely is for certain grab setups etc, but I don't think an entire thread dedicated to it is necessary. By all means, prove me wrong and further the metagame! This is just my opinion.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

It doesn't have to have every single followup, just a thread detailing several followups on all the relevant characters that everyone should be aware of. Also, I'm well aware of the debug menu and all it's glory. Unfortunately, I don't have the 20xx hack pack and only have a Gamecube so I don't really have a way of practicing in this way.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

It doesn't have to have every single followup, just a thread detailing several followups on all the relevant characters that everyone should be aware of. Also, I'm well aware of the debug menu and all it's glory. Unfortunately, I don't have the 20xx hack pack and only have a Gamecube so I don't really have a way of practicing in this way.

I'm pretty sure you can download the 20XX .iso files and play it through the Dolphin emulator. Even if you don't have a mayflash adapter, you can still collect data using your keyboard.

 

[Coastward]

i assume that most of the follow ups that i know are the ones that everyone else knows too.

just **** like grab > aerial on certain %s on certain characters, or even like, dsmash after someone tries to shield grab side-b.

never thought about GOING DEEPER.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I'm pretty sure you can download the 20XX .iso files and play it through the Dolphin emulator. Even if you don't have a mayflash adapter, you can still collect data using your keyboard.

I don't think my computer is good enough to run the 20xx without some lag.

Actually **** it I figured some **** out. This got me thinking, and it turns out I can get the debug menu with an action replay. But do you guys know if the debug menu you get without the 20xx lets you set up DI, see frames, or hitboxes?

e: So I see the non 20xx version does allow for frames, hitboxes, and invincibility. Only problem is I can't really control DI. So if I wanted to run simulations I'd have to manually input the DI frame by frame. That's acceptable, I guess.

i assume that most of the follow ups that i know are the ones that everyone else knows too.

just **** like grab > aerial on certain %s on certain characters, or even like, dsmash after someone tries to shield grab side-b.

never thought about GOING DEEPER.

I'm in the same boat. But there are a lot of grab combos, and just seemingly standard combos in general that I thought worked at a time that I've slowly been discovering simply don't work unless they DI improperly. I also want to **** around with nair combos more. Basically, I just want to further optimize my Ganon's punish game.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

what is the ideal way to maneuver with ganon on FD? Do I DD camp? Do I bait out? Do I wave land alot? I would also like to know how to maneuver against a falco on FD

^Can somebody please answer my questions?

 

[X WaNtEd X]

^Can somebody please answer my questions?

ideal is a very vague term. every movement option you have is ideal at some point. because of the ****ty nature of ganon, you have to mindgame a lot, and this means doing things that would otherwise be punished by making reads. you should never think in terms of "ok against falco i just dash dance, against marth i just waveland, etc." because this mindset is limiting and you'll discover that all these matchups are so much more complex than that.

against falco, you want to stay on the ground more so you're ready to shield lasers. i don't recommend dash dancing too much; just try to close the gap as much as possible. dash wavedash (dashing and immediately wavedashing in that direction to increase the length of your wavedash) when possible. dash normally and be ready to shield in the middle of your dash to stop lasers, and then wavedash out of shield in between lasers.

when you do leave the ground, you're going to want to either fullhop or double jump to avoid lasers. this will force falco to commit or retreat. an example of this would be full hopping a dair with the hopes of trading with an agro falco. another option people use is full hopping u/bairs because you can land with a second one off a single fullhop or you can double jump another one to create a wall of sorts and still land with a third or waveland. finally, double jumping also gives you the option of fast falling into a perfect waveland to close a gap. just be careful with this, because you can still get hit by lasers in the middle of your waveland. you'll notice bizzarroflame often double jumping in place and then reacting to what the other person does. if they retreat or stay far away, he'll perfect waveland in. if they approach, he'll fast fall the double jump into an aerial to stuff them.

you can still short hop, but you really only want to do this when you're closer to falco. usually, you short hop to space an aerial while they're grounded. i recommend learning to shield stop, which is the act of shielding in the middle of your dash to stop your momentum and then immediately performing an action out of shield. typically, this action is short hopping out of shield into an aerial. this can allow you to block a laser and immediately get an aerial out. you can also waveland from your short hop as an effective mixup sometimes. for example, if falco is nearby you and shielding in anticipation of an aerial as you short hop, you could waveland in and grab. or if you're even closer, perform what's called a tomahawk by empty landing the short hop and grabbing.

 

[why]

Is anyone going to Bad Moon Rising in Raleigh, NC, who would be willing to play some matches with me and give some advice? It would be really cool if someone could do that.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Is anyone going to Bad Moon Rising in Raleigh, NC, who would be willing to play some matches with me and give some advice? It would be really cool if someone could do that.

I will be at Bad Moon Rising. Be on the lookout for a green Ganondorf.

 

[why]

I will be at Bad Moon Rising. Be on the lookout for a green Ganondorf.

Cool. Hope to see you there. I will be playing purple.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

^Can somebody please answer my questions?

Honestly? It's tough to move without platforms. I like to waveland a lot, as it really increases your mobility (duh). Other than that, try to bait out attacks and beat them with bairs and retreating fairs / up airs, etc. If possible, try and get your opponent in shield as much as you can because grabbing and successfully tech chasing is basically one of the only ways you're going to win vs. a fast faller on this hellhole of a stage.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Double post. The tournament vid was finally uploaded, so here I am. SOMEONE FINALLY SPELLED MY TAG CORRECTLY!!! Anyway, enjoy. There's room for critique, as always (calling @ -ACE- lol).

I skipped to mid set, I don't feel like explaining it again, but my controller was ****ed up, and my opponent was super chill about it and decided to just have me lose the stock instead of the match.

TL;DR that's the real start of the set. Enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtreQ58xhzY&t=2m25s

 

[Divinokage]

Honestly? It's tough to move without platforms. I like to waveland a lot, as it really increases your mobility (duh). Other than that, try to bait out attacks and beat them with bairs and retreating fairs / up airs, etc. If possible, try and get your opponent in shield as much as you can because grabbing and successfully tech chasing is basically one of the only ways you're going to win vs. a fast faller on this hellhole of a stage.

Not sure how you would view platform movement but they should not be used unless you are already up there from an attack so you can waveland back down.. or use them to chase someone from below. That's how you mindgame your moves, just your movement can be a threat. The point is to be precise, whiffing an attack isn't good. When you use a Ganon whiff and immediately throw out another aerial to cover the next option is because the first read was an attempt to get them that failed but the next move will generally get them as long as you see where they are going. The future for Ganon mains is being solid on the ground, you have to be extremely good at DIing, shield DI, SDI, CCing, powershields and of course 100% edgeguards. At this level, there's no excuse of all these being "hard" to do.

You have to remember going up on a platform is a risk in itself if the opponent is in range for an attack from below. I mean you can't really throw out many attacks when you are on the top platform but if you end up there then when you see someone jump at you, you waveland back down and try to hit them. If you can't then you waveland away from the opponent to create some space. That's how you get better angles of attacks.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Not sure how you would view platform movement but they should not be used unless you are already up there from an attack so you can waveland back down.. or use them to chase someone from below. That's how you mindgame your moves, just your movement can be a threat. The point is to be precise, whiffing an attack isn't good. When you use a Ganon whiff and immediately throw out another aerial to cover the next option is because the first read was an attempt to get them that failed but the next move will generally get them as long as you see where they are going. The future for Ganon mains is being solid on the ground, you have to be extremely good at DIing, shield DI, SDI, CCing, powershields and of course 100% edgeguards. At this level, there's no excuse of all these being "hard" to do.

You have to remember going up on a platform is a risk in itself if the opponent is in range for an attack from below. I mean you can't really throw out many attacks when you are on the top platform but if you end up there then when you see someone jump at you, you waveland back down and try to hit them. If you can't then you waveland away from the opponent to create some space. That's how you get better angles of attacks.

I agree with most of this, but to say that you shouldn't move around on the platforms a lot is false, I think. I like to use platforms A LOT for alternating approaches. For example, if your opponent is dash dancing in and out of fair range and you're under a platform, you can waveland into fair and it'll hit because they were actually IN your range and didn't know it.

Also, wavelanding on a platform into a bair is amazing for certain things. Watch the match I just posted, I used it to counter marth's dash attack.

The top platform for me is, like you said, either baiting them up there and coming down with an aerial or, to reset space, etc.

However, I 10000000% agree with you that the next level of ganondorf is a solid ground game. I think with this, winning tough matches on FD is no longer just a dream.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I agree with most of this, but to say that you shouldn't move around on the platforms a lot is false, I think. I like to use platforms A LOT for alternating approaches. For example, if your opponent is dash dancing in and out of fair range and you're under a platform, you can waveland into fair and it'll hit because they were actually IN your range and didn't know it.

Also, wavelanding on a platform into a bair is amazing for certain things. Watch the match I just posted, I used it to counter marth's dash attack.

The top platform for me is, like you said, either baiting them up there and coming down with an aerial or, to reset space, etc.

However, I 10000000% agree with you that the next level of ganondorf is a solid ground game. I think with this, winning tough matches on FD is no longer just a dream.

First off, I really enjoyed watching that set you just posted. Gave me a bunch of new ideas, actually. The drop through mixups were very cool. And that triple dsmash lmao. My only question is what did you ban instead of FD on the last game?

But back to topic, you have to keep in mind that the set you posted involved Battlefield, where the top platform's height allows you to use platforms more efficiently and safer. You probably couldn't pull off those same platform tactics on Yoshi's or FoD with the same level of saftey, for example.

You say that using platforms allows you to beat people out that are dash dancing seemingly out of range of your fair, but I think what Kage was talking about when he said, "or use them to chase someone from below." I think that the use of platforms should be something you do more of as a mixup rather than something you rely on. Beating out Marth's dash attack and dash dancing in general is more safely accomplished through a solid ground game. You could've just shield grabbed the dash attack, or crouch canceled it into whatever. And while wavelanding off a platform to stop someone dash dancing can sometimes surprise them, eventually they'll learn just to challenge you when you fair off the platform like that and it no longer really becomes an option. At least that's my experience with that tactic.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

First off, I really enjoyed watching that set you just posted. Gave me a bunch of new ideas, actually. The drop through mixups were very cool. And that triple dsmash lmao. My only question is what did you ban instead of FD on the last game?

LMAO that triple dsmash. Thanks for the props. Yea, he spot dodged after EVERY tech chase. Time for embarrassment! you can't just buffer **** like that and get away with it. He even did it after the third down smash too (hence the dash dance before the grab)!

I banned FoD because I dislike that stage in general and absolutely despise playing Marth on that stage. He then decided to try and counter pick fox against me on FD, but proceeded to get triple down smashed lol.

But back to topic, you have to keep in mind that the set you posted involved Battlefield, where the top platform's height allows you to use platforms more efficiently and safer. You probably couldn't pull off those same platform tactics on Yoshi's or FoD with the same level of saftey, for example.

Yes, that's absolutely correct, thanks for clarifying. It can be done on yoshi's with varying degrees of success, but you have to know your spacings etc. Obviously, dream land is another where it will work.

You say that using platforms allows you to beat people out that are dash dancing seemingly out of range of your fair, but I think what Kage was talking about when he said, "or use them to chase someone from below." I think that the use of platforms should be something you do more of as a mixup rather than something you rely on. Beating out Marth's dash attack and dash dancing in general is more safely accomplished through a solid ground game.

It IS just a mixup. I think I even stated that above- the platforms give you more options for approaches, but they don't magically make all of your approaches safe. Not something I rely on at all, I was just using it as an example.

You could've just shield grabbed the dash attack, or crouch canceled it into whatever.

Yea, that's true. Again, it was only an example. Yes, I could have shield grabbed it, but I wasn't sure if he was going in for a dash attack or a DD grab, so I felt it was better to be on the safe side and bair, which covered both options. Generally, if you can grab, do it. Grab + aerial > aerial every time. But sometimes, safety is key.

Think about it though, What if falcon is coming in with a nair or a knee? You can't always shield grab those moves. I promise you, though, that if you know your spacing, waveland bair in an invaluable tool for a counter attack.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Think about it though, What if falcon is coming in with a nair or a knee? You can't always shield grab those moves. I promise you, though, that if you know your spacing, waveland bair in an invaluable tool for a counter attack.

By waveland bair, do you mean wavelanding off a platform into bair or wavelanding into a jump and then doing bair?

With nair you can crouch cancel the first hit, powershield the second and pretty much have a free shield grab. I believe they're only going to get out of that if they do the nair super late into jab. And if they start approaching with late nairs, you just start ftilting/uairing them while they're in the air. Knee is trickier, but if you get the powershield and they don't cross you up, you're going to get the shield grab as long as they don't delay it into a frame trap. But if you're playing the neutral game well, you shouldn't have to be dealing with many raw knees. Also, I'd much rather take a very slight risk to get a grab on Falcon than space a bair/ftilt/cc jab to beat these options. Those don't lead to any followups and reset back into a neutral situation.

These are the conclusions I've reached after studying a bunch of Ganon-Falcon footage recently. So anyone, feel free to correct me if I have false information here.

 

[Divinokage]

Also Marth's dash attack is slow as hell, if you managed to punish it from above that's good but you could've just jumped over and Daired instead pretty much. A skilled Marth won't get caught by stuff like that. My point was they need to commit to an attack first before you can safely change your attack angles with platform and the attack needs to be slow as well. I can't see top players making a lack of judgement like that by whiffing a random dash attack when you weren't even there to begin with. If we want Ganon on top again then we can't be praying on bad play to get your punishes.. but you can of course do that if your opponent is ass. Abuse tactics that works on them lol. It's not meant as a shot but what you described sounds like mid-level tactics.

 

[dERO!]

Ground game obv is key, but we need to be strong at nearly everything

I can't imagine success without using "everything" at our disposal

Sometimes being a ganon, i don't think safety is always the best choice

Btw FlamingHoe FD against Falco is prolly what i played the most ( against baxon ) and getting yourself a gun really helps ( i mean powershields ) plus grabs to tech chases and center stage is a friend

 

[Coastward]

going to my weekly today

gonna actually focus on improvement instead of the W, try to put the things @ RedmanSSBM analyzed for me in motion.

wish me luck; if i win, i'll buy you a drink at the next big event we're both at @ RedmanSSBM

 

[RedmanSSBM]

So I decided to manually upload my stream matches at Olympus onto my YouTube (with permission of course) since the guy who ran the stream only put up bracket matches that were on stream on his youtube.

Anyway, here are the vids:

Olympus - Locke Robster (Ganon) vs SS | FlaminRoy (Fox)

Olympus - Locke Robster (Ganon) vs GCS (Falcon)
Let me know what you guys think

Also, here's some bonus footage of Chaddd vs Mike G in bracket that I got to commentate:

Olympus - Mike G (Peach) vs Chaddd (Ganondorf)

@ Coastward Word up dude, I hope it works out for you! If you'll be at CEO then I should be there haha.

 

[LightKaizo]

@ RedmanSSBM
You made so many questionable decisions...
You played really well though, the u-air strings and edgeguards were really good.
I only saw the game against GCS though, Ill watch the other soon

 

[spider_sense]

BTW... Might definitely moving to south Florida soon. See yall n!gga$ in a month!

OMG YES! So hyped right now.

I'll post last week's versus tournament. Linguini went Ganon and even though he's still rusty, he did very well. I'll make sure to post up the vids, once twitch stops being ******** and lets me load the actual vid so that I can timestamp our matches.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

@ RedmanSSBM
You made so many questionable decisions...
You played really well though, the u-air strings and edgeguards were really good.
I only saw the game against GCS though, Ill watch the other soon

Indeed I did make some questionable decisions. Some lessons are learned the hard way.

 

[Moy]

So I decided to manually upload my stream matches at Olympus onto my YouTube (with permission of course) since the guy who ran the stream only put up bracket matches that were on stream on his youtube.

Anyway, here are the vids:

Olympus - Locke Robster (Ganon) vs SS | FlaminRoy (Fox)

Olympus - Locke Robster (Ganon) vs GCS (Falcon)
Let me know what you guys think

Also, here's some bonus footage of Chaddd vs Mike G in bracket that I got to commentate:

Olympus - Mike G (Peach) vs Chaddd (Ganondorf)

@ Coastward Word up dude, I hope it works out for you! If you'll be at CEO then I should be there haha.

That last stock against GCS man...you definitely had that set. The greed will get you every time.

 

[Linguini]

I trained warren against ganon so he knows that matchup too well. Locke, buffer roll out of fox's nair pressure more. Sometimes it's your only option...Alas, it is ganon.

Tourney was pretty fun last night. Ran out of steam by the end but had a great time fisting the **** out of people lol

Jason making me proud. Saw him do some disgusting combos!

ps go to 03:52:45 for a brutal down b edgeguard LOL
http://www.twitch.tv/vsgc/v/3867016

 

[RedmanSSBM]

That last stock against GCS man...you definitely had that set. The greed will get you every time.

Yeah man. I didn't beat myself up over it, but I know to not get greedy like that again. Hard lesson learned.

@ L Linguini Yeah I've played Warren before in some friendlies but not in tournament. I don't doubt he's got experience from Chaddd back in the day. You're right though, I should probably roll more out of that nair pressure... and SDI it too haha