Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[tauKhan]

@ YvngFlameHoe That advice is for moonwalk out of dash forward (dash forward is the first input). Half circle is bad and slow method. Try out diagonal method for a few hours, trust me it's waaay better and easier. It's also legitimately the optimal way to mw from dd.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

@ YvngFlameHoe That advice is for moonwalk out of dash forward (dash forward is the first input). Half circle is bad and slow method. Try out diagonal method for a few hours, trust me it's waaay better and easier. It's also legitimately the optimal way to mw from dd.

So I only dash forward then the diagonal method. I had asked someone and they told me I had to dash back, then forward

 

[tauKhan]

So I only dash forward then the diagonal method. I had asked someone and they told me I had to dash back, then forward

Well moonwalking is easier done out of turn (Either from walk, dd, or wl), because the turn takes one frame before dash, so you get 1 frame more to move the control stick to opposite diagonal. (However you can then move too fast, and end up not dashing, but that's very hard in practice.)

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

Im just gonna dash forward for now

 

[tauKhan]

To moonwalk out of turn you do precisely same input (face left first, then -> -> ), you just get more distance.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Funny, I've been doing the half-circle motion for a long time now and my moonwalks are pretty good. I guess I just do it fast enough?

 

[tauKhan]

With ganon it doesn't matter as much as his dash acceleration sucks anyway, most important with ganon is the speed you have going into mw. With half circle it's probably humanly impossible to do anywhere near perfect mw (you would have to do a 1 frame half circle all the way to the diagonal, and then somehow not going over the diagonal on the following frame). Going diagonal is simply easy and optimal.

 

[-ACE-]

I don't see the issue. Start the dash, move the stick to the opposite side as fast as possible without dash dancing.

It could be said using c-stick for ledgedash is optimal, since you can't fastfall. But I use down with zero problems. Find the method that works best for you.

 

[tauKhan]

Ledgedashing is very different, since the quality off ledgedash doesn't depend on the input method. With moonwalking the x-value of your stick counts on every frame except the first. It's impossible to do perfect mw with half circle, in addition to the fact that it's so much easier to just do straight diagonal (Took me week to even do passable mws with halfcircle, less than two hours to do really good mws with diagonal) . The reason why half circle and other such methods are popular is due to the lack of understanding in the era when mw was found.

And why do you think every newish player always complains about mw:ing being so hard? I think it's one of the easiest techs to get down with proper method.

 

[n0ne]

That's pretty backwards, when I smoke these days I feel like Im an entirely different person. Must stop before brain melts. Im getting old too so a body does not tolerate **** that much anymore which means its time to be strict. I'm believing in the fact that if you smoke too much you can create a schizo problem lol.

Anyways, ya Im buying some hard liquor before coming to toronto so.. we'll see if we can find time to party a little. Would be pretty funny to do the MM drunk @ n0ne

STILL DRUNK

 

[n0ne]

Alcohol actually has a higher chance of giving you psychosis believe it or not. I like drinking too, but that's the thing I tend to avoid. My liver won't be able to handle it.

Youre still young. Dont miss your chance

Yolo

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Streaming Weekly Ganondorf Match Analysis: http://www.twitch.tv/skytch

 

[-ACE-]

Ledgedashing is very different, since the quality off ledgedash doesn't depend on the input method. With moonwalking the x-value of your stick counts on every frame except the first. It's impossible to do perfect mw with half circle, in addition to the fact that it's so much easier to just do straight diagonal (Took me week to even do passable mws with halfcircle, less than two hours to do really good mws with diagonal) . The reason why half circle and other such methods are popular is due to the lack of understanding in the era when mw was found.

And why do you think every newish player always complains about mw:ing being so hard? I think it's one of the easiest techs to get down with proper method.

I'm not endorsing the half circle method. You can ever so slightly go under the neutral position and go straight to backwards in one motion. No need to fool with any directions other than straight when you're trying for max distance.

@ n0ne I'm putting in work too lol

 

[Linguini]

yo jaysun you guys go hard but i'm the overlord...

happy early bday brosef! A day of greats!

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Happy Birthday to both @ L Linguini and @spider_sense !!!

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

Ledgedashing is very different, since the quality off ledgedash doesn't depend on the input method. With moonwalking the x-value of your stick counts on every frame except the first. It's impossible to do perfect mw with half circle, in addition to the fact that it's so much easier to just do straight diagonal (Took me week to even do passable mws with halfcircle, less than two hours to do really good mws with diagonal) . The reason why half circle and other such methods are popular is due to the lack of understanding in the era when mw was found.

And why do you think every newish player always complains about mw:ing being so hard? I think it's one of the easiest techs to get down with proper method.

And the proper method is?

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Anyone else ever feel like you have to continuously practice just to play up to your own standards? It's very frustrating, as soon as school and work get in the way of practicing smash on a regular interval, I perform substantially worse. I haven't hit a point where I can just pick up the game and play as well as I was two weeks ago. I think that by learning such advanced tech so early in my Melee career, I've grown this dependency on having to perform crazy **** all the time even to compete. I've tried playing the slower, methodical, fundamentally sound Ganon and I just can't do it. I'm all about the movement. If my tech is even slightly off on a given day, it ****s with me so much worse than most players.

The weird thing is, I really only feel this way about Ganon. I can pick up my secondaries, Marth and Zelda, with no effort. I don't understand why. I literally never practice with them; all my skill with them is a combination of intuition, experience, fundamentals, and study. Yet, I perform almost as well, if not better sometimes with these characters. About a month ago, a player that I usually beat figured out my Ganon and sent me into losers. Later in the bracket, I met him and easily beat him with my Marth. And just last night, I went to an easy local and got sent into losers R2 with my Ganon. I literally played Zelda for the rest of the tournament and wound up making it to losers quarters or semis, taking out some people I might've lost to with Ganon along the way.

Point is, I feel like I've set up my Ganon so that unless I'm practicing consistently, I can't perform well. But when I do practice consistently, I perform better with Ganon than my secondaries. But my secondaries perform better with less effort. The question now is do I want to continue investing this much time into Ganon? Or is it possible I just have a natural affinity for Marth and Zelda that has the potential to surpass my abilities with Ganon if I put in the time?

Idk man. Melee shouldn't have me stressing like this.

 

[tauKhan]

@ YvngFlameHoe It's what I suggested to you obviously ( ->-> to moonwalk left, preferably first facing left and having as much momentum as possible, but not in dash previously because then turn cancels momentum), it's easy and also what a tas player would do out of turn.

@ -ACE- Hmm, that's okayish method, a bit slow because you cannot go very quickly straight back (unless in 1 frame out of dash forward) or you will turn, but at least you should get some backwards acceleration instead of forward on the 2nd frame, which is very important.

PS I think enough have been said on the subject here for now.

 

[-ACE-]

Lmfao. Okayish.

You can call my method slow, it's much more important that your fingers are not.

 

[tauKhan]

Has nothing to do with how fast your fingers are, it's a limitation set by the turn mechanic instead. Even if you go slightly below neutral, you still turn after you move stick to x-coordinate a with | a - 128 | >= 64 if you move too fast. If your motion is somewhat symmetrical, you'll probably be spending at least 3 frames at suboptimal coordinates. The diagonal has best possible x-coordinates for 2nd and 3rd frames. You still won't lose that much distance with the method, so it's okayish, way better than those halfcircle methods.

 

[-ACE-]

Has nothing to do with how fast your fingers are

Okayish.

 

[YvngFlameHoe]

Has nothing to do with how fast your fingers are, it's a limitation set by the turn mechanic instead. Even if you go slightly below neutral, you still turn after you move stick to x-coordinate a with | a - 128 | >= 64 if you move too fast. If your motion is somewhat symmetrical, you'll probably be spending at least 3 frames at suboptimal coordinates. The diagonal has best possible x-coordinates for 2nd and 3rd frames. You still won't lose that much distance with the method, so it's okayish, way better than those halfcircle methods.

Im having this issue, where I keep jumping after I get the mw with tap jump

 

[tauKhan]

I'm sorry, I don't even see how that's happening. Do you have a faulty control stick? All the angle inputs during mw are quite far away from the tap jump zone (unless you mw from through upper half, which is also possible, but pointlessly hard)

 

[RedmanSSBM]

@ X WaNtEd X It sounds to me like you're afraid of losing with Ganon, that you're afraid of failure. As much as it sounds difficult to do, you really should play Ganon in all circumstances, even if you feel like you're going to lose with him. If you want to be better with Ganon at all times, then you need to nail down what goes on in tournament with him that causes you to lose. You can't go in there having the feeling that your Ganon is bad and that your Marth and Zelda will do the trick. What you're doing here is avoiding failure that will help you to improve. Failure is an important part of learning and improving, cause it's a direct case of showing what went wrong and exactly where you can improve upon. You have to tackle this problem head on instead of just whisking away another win for the sake of winning. Remember that this game is about learning and having fun, if you're too concentrated on the win than you're not gonna improve very rapidly. It's just another loss at the end of the day really, so what if you lost to someone that's worse than you? That shouldn't be what's on your mind. You need to just focus on yourself and improving yourself. Don't let things like what other people think of you if you lose to this person or that person get to you. Don't let any outside factors influence you to do something different.

I would suggest for the next tournament, that you only play Ganon, and force yourself to only play Ganon, if that's the character you truly want to be really good with. I had this character crisis too dude, and I learned that you have to push through and keep going because there's always room for improvement. Basically, when you choose to play as Marth or Zelda, you're essentially giving up on improving with your main in that moment, and that really hinders on your improvement as a player, you're sacrificing a chance to learn something about yourself and your character in the long run in exchange for a quick win in the short run. You might feel like the training that you're doing isn't paying off, but trust me, it is. And maybe you're not completely training the correct way? Maybe you're just auto-pilot spamming tech skill all over the place when you practice by yourself? If this is so, I really suggest you watch the Smash Practice Episode 1 where Cactuar and Zhu go over a proper Training Routine. I learned a good bit from it and I know you can too. If you really think you can't play well without doing crazy tech that you mentioned, then that's a mental barrier you need to get over. What was it that your opponent did a month ago to beat your Ganon? Did you just get frustrated that you lost to him because you thought he "figured you out"? How did he figure you out? You have to answer these question on your own and be excited to try again with Ganon if you meet him again in bracket, or if you figure out what he's doing, you can MM him, but only for the sake of learning about how you adapt or play.

It's a rough road man but you gotta embrace it, you gotta be willing to go all the way and you gotta be willing to fail now in order to succeed later. If you do end up failing, learn from it and use it for next time. You will get better over time if you make these mental changes, believe me.

 

[-ACE-]

Try to play the player more so than his character. General matchup knowledge is great but will only get you so far. Being able to see your opponent's habits and understand their thought process is everything once you have a good grasp on fundamentals.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

I honestly just want to be good at this game. I was playing Ganon before because I was certain he was the best character for me. Now, I'm not so sure.

It's not even that I'll pull out my secondaries only when I think I'll lose. I've only done that a few times. I'll be playing friendlies with my friends and I'll feel like taking a little break from Ganon. But it will often upset me, and others, how well my other characters will do comparatively once I pull them out.

As for that player I switched to Marth on, he was playing a really annoying defensive Falcon that would never approach and would knee and grab often. The way I fight normal falcons, aka stay grounded, crouch cancel hits, retreat uairs, high ftilts, etc. doesn't work versus him. And when I play him the way that works, I develop bad habits that get me killed versus other falcon players. I was just pissed he was playing this terrible strategy that defied all logic, yet was working so I switched to Marth to avoid picking up anymore bad habits and to show him his fundamentals weren't as strong as mine.

 

[-ACE-]

See my last post, I had a feeling it could be some of your problem. You know how to deal with his DD camping, use that to avoid the grab, DI his throws correctly, and avoid/DI knees correctly. If you could adapt faster you'd win I bet.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I analyzed @Divinokage , @Bizzarro Flame and @Renth yesterday for my stream. Check it out: http://www.twitch.tv/skytch/b/627468155

 

[X WaNtEd X]

See my last post, I had a feeling it could be some of your problem. You know how to deal with his DD camping, use that to avoid the grab, DI his throws correctly, and avoid/DI knees correctly. If you could adapt faster you'd win I bet.

None of those things are my issue with this one opponent. I think my biggest challenge versus this guy is that I either have to forget what I know and play in a way that only works against his style, or be on point with my movement and other tech.

The latter makes things much easier because I just play more naturally when I'm really mobile and can usually break down what I have to do easier. But when I'm not confident in my tech on a given day, I'll have to play much slower. When this happens, I feel as though adapting is hard not because I don't know what to do, but because I'm incapable of doing what I want to do. This goes for all opponents, really. I was just using this one dude as an example.

So going back to my original question, does else every struggle with this issue as a ganon? How long did it take before practicing a lot wasn't a prerequisite for playing with your best tech?

 

[-ACE-]

I would hammer tech skill practice until your minimum level of technical prowess (like, even when you're nervous in tournament) is high enough to meet your goals. Practice in high stress situations... do MM's, challenge great players and rivals, try to play at tournaments with large crowds, etc. You'll stop having slow days.

 

[MinorThreat]

KAGE GRAB THE ****ING LEDGE YOU ****** HOLY **** IM SO MAD RIGHT NOW

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

Just got back from McSmashter. Tournament was so much fun. Can't remember the last time I did so many Ganon dittos XD

Round 1 pools I got 2nd seed. My last match was streamed on VGBC so when it's uploaded I'll post it here for critique. I got 2-0'd and only used Ganon in game 1 (Mewtwo on FD CP for the Fox in game 2, didn't work out at all XD) but I'd definitely like some advice.

My Round 2 Bracket pool looked like this:
Armada
Bye

Sheik Player
Puff Player

Myself
@Coastward

Reggie (Another Ganon)
Bye

So I beat Coast in round 1 (3 games, 1st game was super close and I needed to make a comeback to win on BF, game 2 on Yoshi's he 2 or 3 stocked me, game 3 on Stadium I had to make another comeback and won last hit)

Then I played Reggie, and his Ganon got the better of my in 2 close games

In Losers I played the Puff player, beat him 2-1 (Game 1 as Ganon, lost game 2 as Fox, won game 3 as Ganon) - this set basically confirmed to me that Fox is not the character for me to use

After that I had to play Coast again and lost 2-0. He bodied me game 1 so I switched to Falcon and CPed FD, that game was a lot closer but I still lost.

If my Bracketology is correct I ended up with 49th, which hugely exceeds the expectations I had going into the event.

Played a couple friendlies with Armada, that Fox is SCARY GOOD I couldn't take a single stock off him in 3 games (Ganon, Falcon, Mewtwo)

Played a bunch of friendlies with Kage at the end of the night, which was a whole lot of fun. He gave me a bunch of things to think about regarding myself as a player and a Ganon main. Thanks so much @Divinokage!

Good **** to Kage for getting 4th and super good **** to @ n0ne for beating him!

Can't wait for the next tournament I get to go to! (Maybe by then I'll be able to ledgedash XD)

 

[-ACE-]

1st: Armada
2nd: Vwins
3rd: N0ne
4th: Kage
5th: Weon-X, RaynEX
7th: Coffeeblack, Idea
9th: I.B.,Toph, Riddlebox, Fork

Yeah definitely seemed like a good tourney. Hopefully we'll have some vids later. I hope n0ne and kage went all Ganon.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

1st: Armada
2nd: Vwins
3rd: N0ne
4th: Kage
5th: Weon-X, RaynEX
7th: Coffeeblack, Idea
9th: I.B.,Toph, Riddlebox, Fork

Yeah definitely seemed like a good tourney. Hopefully we'll have some vids later. I hope n0ne and kage went all Ganon.

n0ne definitely used more Falcon than Ganon judging from the matches I saw; he went all Falcon against Kage and all Falcon against Vwins in both winners and losers. Earlier bracket matches I saw him switching between the two.

He's probably more capable of answering which characters he used than I am though XD

 

[tauKhan]

n0ne went ganon on last game losers vs vwins, otherwise on all matches streamed he went falcon.

 

[Duel]

How do you kill a bad habit? I keep trying to shield grab spacies, and it obviously doesn't work against good ones.

 

[-ACE-]

How do you kill a bad habit? I keep trying to shield grab spacies, and it obviously doesn't work against good ones.

Yes it can work....

had to ressurect this. to be honest I don't ever remember reading it.

EDIT. FOUND IT

 

[Duel]

Is that easy to pull off?

 

[-ACE-]

You just have to practice shield SDI. If you can input backwards WHILE the shine is hitting your shield, you will be pushed back far enough to be out of shine range (falco can't hit you with additional jc shines). Simply holding a direction as you shield will move you as well (shield ASDI) but not as far and can work in some situations. Then just learn to input the grab immediately after. The only thing falco can do is full jump out of shine.

 

[Duel]

You just have to practice shield SDI. If you can input backwards WHILE the shine is hitting your shield, you will be pushed back far enough to be out of shine range (falco can't hit you with additional jc shines). Simply holding a direction as you shield will move you as well (shield ASDI) but not as far and can work in some situations. Then just learn to input the grab immediately after. The only thing falco can do is full jump out of shine.

****, well this would be pretty game changing for me in this matchup, thanks.