Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[spider_sense]

Something to add to that diagonal cc tech, is if you're running and immediately buffer the input but in the opposite direction, Ganon should be able to f-tilt, it seems a lot easier to do than just running and pivoting a f-tilt.

 

[Coastward]

2015 has definitely been a good year for me so far.

@ Divinokage we gotta sit down on at mcsmashter and just play some matches, every time we play is because its a money match and i dont wanna lose more money LOL.

 

[n0ne]

So I was messing around with platforms on Battlefield today to practice my movement when it hit me that I can waveland off of a platform and do an aerial while also retreating. So this means I can waveland off the side platform and fair but as soon as I fair I start holding back towards the stage and I end up landing on stage. The fair hitbox hits really low, so this can cover multiple angles if your opponent wants a hasty recovery. You can even do this while facing towards the stage and waveland upair and hold in, your upair will hit the edge, not to mention the upair will cover the side-platform too. Covers a lot of options when you land on stage. You can do this as well with dair and still land on stage. I really want to try this now, because before I would always waveland off the side platform and keep holding the control stick in the direction that I wavelanded. I feel like using the control stick to control your movement in the air will allow for more precise attacks from platforms. I tend to overshoot when I waveland off a side platform with a fair, but if I retreat it, then I'll space it better.

You can also just barely get a dair out if you drop through the side platform on BF where you hit both down on the control stick and A almost at the same time. Similar to a down-smash, but you hit down just a little bit before you hit A. This way, you don't FF the dair, and it just barely comes out for one frame just before you land. This will actually guaranteed poke your opponent's shield if you position yourself correctly.

I've even got a consistent setup for getting the waveland off the platform turn around to grab the ledge. You have to time the moonwalk right as you're about to fall off, so that you only turn around and your momentum isn't lost. I've gotten really consistent with it and I hope to use it in some matches.

The above stuff that I mentioned also works on Dreamland, but not Yoshi's, because Yoshi's platforms hang at the same vertical plane as the stage's ledges, so it's not as practical there (though it's still an excellent stage). I'm almost considering going to Dreamland a lot more often with all this info about platforms and whatnot. Yoshi's is still great, but I feel like there's a lot of shenanigans that can happen on that stage, and it can be very volatile.

I'm thinking that since Ganondorf relies so much on platforms to perform well, that I'm almost even considering to not even play Ganon on Final Destination. I'd like to try out Falcon for those FD counterpicks in a best of 5, and of course in friendlies when it randoms to FD as Ganon, then next game I play I'll pick Falcon and go back to FD. Basically, in my head, anything that you can do with Ganon on FD, you can do so much better with Falcon. But Falcon ain't got nothing on Ganon's platform game.

Why u steal my falcon/dorf counterpick combo

 

[Renth]

Lunacy Gaming offered to pay my flight and hotel to Evo it all depends on work johns now

 

[Divinokage]

2015 has definitely been a good year for me so far.

@ Divinokage we gotta sit down on at mcsmashter and just play some matches, every time we play is because its a money match and i dont wanna lose more money LOL.

Well you still challenged me into a MM. But ya we can play after a lot.

 

[Coastward]

Well you still challenged me into a MM. But ya we can play after a lot.

hopefully ill take more than 1 match this time

 

[-ACE-]

Lunacy Gaming offered to pay my flight and hotel to Evo it all depends on work johns now

YO. ****ing AWESOME.

 

[dharper7]

good info here

 

[Bwmat]

Me and spider_sense do this all the time..... partial input.....

I believe strongly that controller vary on the sweetspots of certain analog inputs but idk for sure. They have certainly varied on the 10+ controllers I've owned.

I was just trying this out and I found that facing to the right was way easier than left. Maybe my controller's sensitivity isn't symmetrical or something.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

2015 has definitely been a good year for me so far.

@ Divinokage we gotta sit down on at mcsmashter and just play some matches, every time we play is because its a money match and i dont wanna lose more money LOL.

Yo don't leave me out of that

 

[X WaNtEd X]

You won't have inv ledgehop uair as an option every time. The only part of the uair hitbox that could hit (frame 16 of the uair) is disjointed enough for invincibility not to matter. The spacing of the uair means everything so I say staying on stage and simply doing a uair is easier (and you're more than likely already on stage anyway). You have to almost ledge cancel it you're so close to the ledge. And remember, hitting them to center stage is much worse than whiffing the uair as you can still edge pressure them. There is nothing wrong with that option though if you have time, it is just overkill imo in this one scenario.

Falco def messed up if ftilt beat LHDL. They should be invincible and low firing lasers. Cc jab is insanely good.

Edit:

SERIOUSLY ALL GANONS. PRACTICE HOLDING PARTIAL DOWN + AWAY UNTIL YOU KNOW EXACTLY WHERE YOUR PARTICULAR CONTROLLER'S "SWEET SPOT" FOR CC JAB. Find out where this spot is on your d-pad because it varies. You can practice it by yourself, you're crouching, but when you hit A Ganon stands and jabs. MONEY IN THE BANK vs Falco's LHDL.

What do you mean by "sweet spot"? What's the difference between hitting this sweet spot and simply ccing and then releasing to jab?

And man, I guess that puts a hole into my "always edgeguard from the ledge" theory. I just want to come up with a flow chart method for edgeguaring space animals.

 

[Moy]

What do you mean by "sweet spot"? What's the difference between hitting this sweet spot and simply ccing and then releasing to jab?

And man, I guess that puts a hole into my "always edgeguard from the ledge" theory. I just want to come up with a flow chart method for edgeguaring space animals.

I think what Ace is getting at is that when you crouch, and then move your control stick into the 45 degree notch in the opposite direction your character's facing (so that you're angling diagonally downward), you can hit A during this and immediately jab instead of dtilt or something slower. So basically it's a super quick way to jab in between Falco's lasers.

If Falco ends up throwing out an unsafe aerial from the ledge instead, you're already CC'ing, which could result in a grab or buffered roll at low percent to put you in a better position depending on the situation. Of course, you have to be careful of the shine.

 

[Kryout]

I'm gonna have to play some matches against Skytch at Olympus. Get him to show me the ropes. I might be at CEO too, and if anyone's gonna be down there, play me.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Could we take a moment to talk about something really important in fighting games? Adaptability.

How do you guys try to adapt to your opponent? What strategies do you come up with in a match to adjust yourself vs your opponent?

This is a topic that I was discussing with a friend recently and I feel like it's a really weak part of my game, since I hardly ever try to actually adapt, mostly because I don't know what steps I should take to do so, or just have a general guideline.

I'm gonna have to play some matches against Skytch at Olympus. Get him to show me the ropes. I might be at CEO too, and if anyone's gonna be down there, play me.

Yeah man I'll be more than willing to! Hopefully I'll be able to recognize you at all. If I see a Ganon playing on a setup I'll ask if it's you.

 

[Bwmat]

I have yet another question for you guys - how tight is the timing on runoff ledge ff uair so that you can still recover?

It seems to be almost fp, but I don't have frame-by-frame set up to check.

Does it matter if you hit someone with the uair? I seem to have more luck not dying when I hit someone.

I don't actually do it in real matches, but i've been playing around with it 'in the lab'

 

[tm]

I think in almost any situation there is a better alternative to runoff fastfall uair. If you HAVE to fastfall to hit, then there are probably much safer & easier options from the ledge. Otherwise you can just not fastfall and uair / fair. Only situation I can think of is firefox / bird just below ledge and kind of out, at just such a timing where you don't have time to runoff uair or WD off bair. Obviously there could be other situations but it's very risky, and I think it could almost always be replaced with non fastfalled runoff uair OR runoff fastfall double jump uair, which can go lower while still making it back (but also takes longer)

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Oh, also, I finally started to test chain-grabbing space animals against my friend today. I feel like even though it's really hard to CG spacies to death, doing it from 30-60% isn't too hard cause you just turn around and regrab immediate downthrow. Don't you not have to JC grab until like 80% or something? Cause that's when it gets kind of hard.

I noticed when I started trying this out, I was focused on just getting the right percent to start chain-grabbing, and then just do it, and I would get like 5-6 throws off of it before I dropped it. I feel like this can cause my opponent to think about getting out of the CG instead of teching, so could I just do 4 or 5 throws and then try to tech-chase? I feel like that would be a real cool extension to grabbing, and really make grabbing a space animal worth while.

Could this also work vs Falcon if he doesn't DI properly the first few times?

 

[Bwmat]

@ tm - yeah, I'm not going to use it in practice often, if at all. It's just too hard to pull off consistently. Mostly just curious.

 

[Moy]

Just watched @ RedmanSSBM 's analysis of my match vs. Sago. Thanks for doing that man, I really appreciate it. I was definitely playing off of adrenaline and not thinking enough. For some reason, I always want to deck people in the face with fair, which leads me to throw it out on my opponent's shield WAY TOO OFTEN. It's a bad habit. I also definitely should've grabbed the ledge way more against him, but I was being bad and staying scared of being caught in another edgeguarding situation.

I actually took a set off of him 2 weeks ago, which I was pretty proud of. Although I agree with him that he was playing worse than in the set you saw. I've got other videos against Marth that I'll share later, if anyone wants to watch them.

So many Marth players in Chicago. And Falco.

 

[-ACE-]

Locke, around 67% or so is where turnaround grab will not work for full DI behind and you must jc grab. (Edit: this is for falco for anyone reading)

Wanted, I say this because that area that allows you too stand and jab from crouch differs from controller to controller in my experience. But I will say most white ones are extremely similar (I've owned all the colors).

Simply holding c-down and spamming A works too. All you need is downward ASDI.

And also I didn't want to sound like inv ledgehop uair isn't a great option. I just answered that question as if you KNEW he was going for the ledge. If you have no read on him, and you have time, It's certainly a good choice.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Locke, around 67% or so is where turnaround grab will not work for full DI behind and you must jc grab. (Edit: this is for falco for anyone reading)

Wanted, I say this because that area that allows you too stand and jab from crouch differs from controller to controller in my experience. But I will say most white ones are extremely similar (I've owned all the colors).

Simply holding c-down and spamming A works too. All you need is downward ASDI.

And also I didn't want to sound like inv ledgehop uair isn't a great option. I just answered that question as if you KNEW he was going for the ledge. If you have no read on him, and you have time, It's certainly a good choice.

Thanks for the info. I took a look at Magus' CG guide again and looked at the numbers. I'm gonna shoot for doing this more in friendlies. And you can ASDI down on the c-stick to get the same effect as holding at that angle to stand up jab? Well I'll have to try this out soon.

 

[-ACE-]

Only in some scenarios will downward ASDI suffice (ex: falco LHDL, Falcon nair). Actually crouching cuts hitstun in half though so in many other instances a true cc is better. But yeah it's money.

 

[tauKhan]

Only in some scenarios will downward ASDI suffice (ex: falco LHDL, Falcon nair). Actually crouching cuts hitstun in half though so in many other instances a true cc is better. But yeah it's money.

You can't ASDI land lasers at all, since their kb is so low. This means ASDI doesn't matter at all. Crouching reduces kb and therefore hitstun by 1/3 and hitlag by 1/2, so it helps.

Usually though ASDI down is the true thing you are after, since landing via ASDI means that your hitstun gets replaced by landing animation unless you get knocked over. Crouching helps to achieve landing and can prevent you from getting knocked down sometimes because of the reduced kb.

 

[-ACE-]

You can't ASDI land lasers at all, since their kb is so low. This means ASDI doesn't matter at all. Crouching reduces kb and therefore hitstun by 1/3 and hitlag by 1/2, so it helps.

Usually though ASDI down is the true thing you are after, since landing via ASDI means that your hitstun gets replaced by landing animation unless you get knocked over. Crouching helps to achieve landing and can prevent you from getting knocked down sometimes because of the reduced kb.

Hmm... Not kidding I've tested it vs falco's LHDL years ago and was pretty sure it worked. I've definitely done it to falcon's nair too despite the low kb of the first hit. Oh well. CC is always better anyway, just wanted to share more info.

Lol I always get hitlag and hitstun confused, thanks for fixing that.

 

[tauKhan]

CC is not always better, crouch effect is independent and vastly inferior. Crouching at low percents can prevent you from countering an attack you could counter if you only asdi down. For example foxes weak nair -> shine handily beats crouching peaches cc dsmash until about 30% at which point it becomes asdiable when crouching. It's also a true combo somewhere between 24% - 30%, but if the peach doesn't crouch the fa for fox is very small vs dsmash.

 

[-ACE-]

When does ASDI alone begin to work in that scenario?

 

[tauKhan]

0% IIRC not sure but very low at least. Also yeah the jab vs lhdl probably works regardless of crouching.

 

[tm]

CC is not always better, crouch effect is independent and vastly inferior

Woah woah what?
If the crouch effect reduces hitlag and hitstun then how is it beneficial to ASDI down while avoiding crouching?

 

[-ACE-]

It should still be possible to CC jab n-air regardless (unless you mean n-air behind you) since at worst you're at +2 plus whatever half n-air's hitlag is. You just can't wait to see it hit you before doing it and you jab right after they would be landing. If you're not actually crouching and are just DIing down while in lag you can't jab them in time if it hits right before landing though, since you need the reduced hitlag you get from the crouch to have enough time.

Read this and my post before it......


Also if jab alone worked against LHDL we would have been countering it long ago.....

 

[Bwmat]

I was just trying this out and I found that facing to the right was way easier than left. Maybe my controller's sensitivity isn't symmetrical or something.

hmm same thing on my brand new 'wii u smash' controller

 

[tauKhan]

@ tm Crouching in some scenarios like that reduces kb so that it's no longer possible to land cancel hitstun, thus asdi only can have better result. This applies to very weak moves. And while crouch reduces hitstun by 1/3, asdi landing completely removes it, replacing it with your hard landing animation

@ -ACE- I have actually never seen @Magus420 mention the fact that there's a kb threshold below which land cancels can't happen. I suspect even he didn't know that back then.

And I have no idea whether jab works vs lhdl, I'm just completely sure that asdi doesn't work vs lasers.

 

[tm]

@ tm Crouching in some scenarios like that reduces kb so that it's no longer possible to land cancel hitstun, thus asdi only can have better result. This applies to very weak moves.

Not sure what you mean by land cancel. Are you referring to the same phenomenon that allows marth to act very quickly after being fox shined from the air into the ground?

EDIT: If so, wouldn't that mean you would have to be airborne first? (and crouching isn't an option)
Or does the attack actually have such a knockback that it lifts you off the ground briefly, but ASDI down is enough to almost instantly land back down with the usual 4 frames of landing lag? In which case it also has such a small amount of knockback that crouch canceling reduces it to the point where it no longer lifts you off the ground, and now the stun that you take, although reduced from the usual stun (if not land canceled), is greater than if simply ASDI'd and not CC'd?

Hope I'm understanding this correctly LOL

 

[tauKhan]

@ tm Yeah it's the same mechanic, and it's also what allows crouch cancelling into immediate counter attack. You get hit, but then you land immediately via asdi and can act after your landing animation i.e really fast.

 

[tm]

(Read my edit for the last post, sounds like I understand it but want to be sure)
Ok, so crouching is worse in the (rare?) case that ASDI results in a land cancel but a crouch cancel reduces the knockback too much? And falco lasers fit into that category?

 

[-ACE-]

I see @ T tauKhan that makes sense. Stronger moves cc, weaker moves ASDI. Against falcon's nair both work..... does that mean that the first hit of falcon's nair has more kb than Fox's weak nair at 0-30%?

Lol gotta make sense of all this!

 

[tauKhan]

@ tm That's close to it. When you get hit by a move that doesn't spike, you go into air. If it's weak enough, you can immediately collide into ground, after which one of the following happens depending on kb, listed in decreasing order: 1) You get knocked down
2) You land, cancelling hitstun (cc)
3) You go into grounded hitstun

The laser does 3) even if you don't crouch, so crouching is beneficial.
It's rare that crouching is worse than asdi only, but I just wanted to point out that asdi only is very potent when sufficient. There's also some untapped potential in dsdi on plats to slide off edges to cancel stun.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

so @ T tauKhan if I ASDI down Falco's dair on me at 0%, I won't get that "tumble" stun animation and I'll just immediately land?

 

[tauKhan]

No @ RedmanSSBM if you are grounded ,the dair is a spike and you never go into air and thus have no chance of ASDI to land. This is why it's said that it can't be cc'd. If you get hit in the air by a raw dair I think even ganon always either land cancels or gets knocked down.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

No @ RedmanSSBM if you are grounded ,the dair is a spike and you never go into air and thus have no chance of ASDI to land. This is why it's said that it can't be cc'd. If you get hit in the air by a raw dair I think even ganon always either land cancels or gets knocked down.

Alright, thanks for the clarification

 

[-ACE-]

Any answer for my question?