Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[X WaNtEd X]

http://www.twitch.tv/evenmatchupgaming/b/579808649?t=7h16m52s heres the only bracket match i could get on stream.

shield grabbing is my biggest problem right now, i get scared in shield and i think its my only good option to get a good punish. game 2 went way better because raynEX told me to not do that ****, but then i started playing like an idiot and kept fairing while recovering. the side b flubs didnt help much either.

honestly i think i coulda gotten top 8, maybe even top 5. i just got in my head. i need to play more and really work on my follow ups from throws and shield options. kage, come to toronto more please, I NEED HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

so from watching this and other matches you've played on stream relatively recently, i'd have to disagree that shield grabbing is your biggest issue. your biggest issue is a lack of ground game. re-watch this set. how many times did you get a hit off of a jab or tilt? how many times did you get a hit off of an aerial? it's great that you can waveland around the stage when someone is dead, but how does that help you if you can't get a hit off of it? actually the first game you had some good jabs, but not so much the second. let me put it this way. you land ground moves sometimes, but it's almost always following up an aerial. also you almost never wavedashed the entire set. you have the tech skill, you just need to work on application in the neutral game. try consciously thinking about mixing up your approaches more.

as for your oos problems, i'd just start buffer rolling more often against space animal players. it's so op with ganon. and as you say, don't get scared in the shield, remember your other options such as aerials, wavedash to jab/tilt/grab, and up-b. i'm finding up-b oos is really good when your opponent is out of shield grab range and throws out a slower move that isn't a frame trap. sometimes they could even be going for a frame trap but if you recognize the poor spacing you can take advantage of the situation.

 

[Coastward]

so from watching this and other matches you've played on stream relatively recently, i'd have to disagree that shield grabbing is your biggest issue. your biggest issue is a lack of ground game. re-watch this set. how many times did you get a hit off of a jab or tilt? how many times did you get a hit off of an aerial? it's great that you can waveland around the stage when someone is dead, but how does that help you if you can't get a hit off of it? actually the first game you had some good jabs, but not so much the second. let me put it this way. you land ground moves sometimes, but it's almost always following up an aerial. also you almost never wavedashed the entire set. you have the tech skill, you just need to work on application in the neutral game. try consciously thinking about mixing up your approaches more.

my follow ups were terrible that set, i was doing so much better at the end of the day, was coming close to taking games off of top players too. same things with the shield pressure, i just get caught up with the aggressiveness and i dont think straight.

and yeah, i agree that i don't use wavedash to follow up anything. i need to experiment more, feel more things out and just make sure my habits get fixed. no one to play with makes it hard for me to practice that kind of stuff.

thanks for the input.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

my follow ups were terrible that set, i was doing so much better at the end of the day, was coming close to taking games off of top players too. same things with the shield pressure, i just get caught up with the aggressiveness and i dont think straight.

and yeah, i agree that i don't use wavedash to follow up anything. i need to experiment more, feel more things out and just make sure my habits get fixed. no one to play with makes it hard for me to practice that kind of stuff.

thanks for the input.

np mate. oh and i guess wavedashing more for followups would be an improvement, but i'd say focus more on using it for spacing and in the neutral in general. for example, you also sometimes jump off platforms into an aerial aimed at a grounded opponent. what is the point of jumping on a platform only to come down with an aerial unless it's a mixup? think about it. when you jump, your opponent knows you're either coming down on them or going to the higher platform. and it's pretty easy to figure out which it will be if it's done every time. that being said, instead of jumping, you could wavedash off platforms into aerials. i still sometimes jump off of platforms into aerials, but it's a habit that good players have discouraged me from having and as a result i try very hard to only jump from a platform to get to higher ground.

 

[n0ne]

What the.. those tactics generally only works in the corner and even then.. Good players won't give you either of those that easily.

The other options would be to condition them in shield by using grounded moves/aerial moves a lot then finally punishing them with grabs. If it looks like you are going for grab too much then you're the one getting aerialed into combos. Have to mix up, counter-attacks, baiting jumps, shields and grabs. Finding the right amount for all of those is depending on your opponents habits. There's also spotdodge that is more relevant for some characters, in that case you use delayed attacks, don't be too hasty. =P

I meant matchup wide. U can bait rolls with effective dash dancing mixed with tomahawks and semi-retreating bairs.

Also, punish dumb buffer rolling habits with stomps of your own, usually theyll buff roll after u succesfully read a tech but couldnt get there in time

Platform wavedash to baircatches ppl off guard if theyre DDing too much against u, and SH wavedash to ftilt is a good counter to that as well

Proper use of CCing is effective as well to get in a grab and start tech chases

 

[PseudoTurtle]

@ Moy the rules are just like a tournament set. I misunderstood though- I'd thought that your team captain picked you to go up against this falcon player, not the other way around (i.e. you beating the puff and THEIR team captain putting him up against you). Basically, he had choice of any stage that time, then you could change characters if you wanted. BUT, since he picked random (and got lucky as ****), he made it so that you had to stay with the big man.

Typical tournament rules are: loser counterpicks stage, winner can change character, then loser can change character. But, if the loser just picks random, winner does not have the option of changing character.

 

[Coastward]

@ n0ne whats the next tournament youre going to? we havent played in a while. teams is hella fun as well.

also @ PseudoTurtle for the falcon MU analysis video with bizz and darkrain, theres also bizz vs scar that we can use for comparison aspects as well.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

thread catchup post:

http://youtu.be/Kagsl0dz8vA

this is some crazy **** right here. i'm stealing the ledgehop jab to bair edgeguard and the ledgehop dash offstage double jump bair.

The only way I can think to use it is when you're hit, you have to shield DI so that you can do it the way axe does.

whatever is easier for you. but be warned, the shield di method kind of telegraphs that you're about to shield drop so a good opponent that's aware will space to avoid the aerial that follows. that's why i think it's a good idea to learn how to do it both the regular way and the shield di way. i'm not saying don't shield di to cover your feet on the platform. i'm saying learn how to do it when you normally wouldn't be shield diing so your opponent can't tell if it's coming or not in those situations.

I'm glad you kept it close with him. I got 4 stocked first game - he only took 44%.

this is giving me nostalgia from last year

Spidey, the boost grab actually has a hitbox behind ganon (according to Tipman). That's why bizzarro flame will sometimes moonwalk after wavelanding and then getting the grab, as opposed to just waveland grab... I think. But whether intentional on his part or not, he moonwalks for that backward hitbox and it definitely increases the grab range.

woah woah woah this is a thing? i guess just another reason for me to learn to moonwalk. how does one boost grab in the first place?

 

[Moy]

@ Moy the rules are just like a tournament set. I misunderstood though- I'd thought that your team captain picked you to go up against this falcon player, not the other way around (i.e. you beating the puff and THEIR team captain putting him up against you). Basically, he had choice of any stage that time, then you could change characters if you wanted. BUT, since he picked random (and got lucky as ****), he made it so that you had to stay with the big man.

Typical tournament rules are: loser counterpicks stage, winner can change character, then loser can change character. But, if the loser just picks random, winner does not have the option of changing character.

We were both the captains of our teams. I'll link to the crew battle when it's uploaded. We chose our characters before it even started so I couldn't switch. Even ORLY said only Yoshi's, Battlefield and Dreamland should be legal for crews.

 

[-ACE-]

I just watched that vid of n0ne vs windrose. Those techs are old technology but I liked how fluid he remained and most of his decision making in the neutral game. Some missed opportunities but he was styling a little, I'm sure he's aware of it. Could have easily been a 3-4 stock, I approve.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

@ Coastward I see a few problems in how you played vs the Fox.

1. You threw out fairs too preemptively and you over-extended with them a lot. It looked like you were trying to approach with fair, which is not a good idea to do against Fox cause he can very easily see that it is coming and he can just dash away and dash back in and grab you for it. You did do a few good retreating fairs that some of them hit, which is good. It prevents him from so easily coming in. If you want to fair and not do a retreating one, then just fair in place. It covers enough space as is, and you're not giving up space either.
2. Your edgeguarding still needs a bit of work. I saw three cases where the Fox did an up-b to the ledge that you did not position yourself to cover. To easily cover this, just get on the side platform where you sent Fox off stage, and be prepared to bair him when he tries to up-b to the ledge. It's all about timing and spacing but it absolutely works.
3. When recovering, you need to be wary of that shine and not throw out moves when trying to recover cause Fox is fast and can dodge them and punish you for it. Don't down-b below the ledge cause Fox can jump out there and shine you and then you're done. Recovering is a ***** vs Fox but you gotta make it not easy for him.

 

[Coastward]

@ Coastward I see a few problems in how you played vs the Fox.

1. You threw out fairs too preemptively and you over-extended with them a lot. It looked like you were trying to approach with fair, which is not a good idea to do against Fox cause he can very easily see that it is coming and he can just dash away and dash back in and grab you for it. You did do a few good retreating fairs that some of them hit, which is good. It prevents him from so easily coming in. If you want to fair and not do a retreating one, then just fair in place. It covers enough space as is, and you're not giving up space either.
2. Your edgeguarding still needs a bit of work. I saw three cases where the Fox did an up-b to the ledge that you did not position yourself to cover. To easily cover this, just get on the side platform where you sent Fox off stage, and be prepared to bair him when he tries to up-b to the ledge. It's all about timing and spacing but it absolutely works.
3. When recovering, you need to be wary of that shine and not throw out moves when trying to recover cause Fox is fast and can dodge them and punish you for it. Don't down-b below the ledge cause Fox can jump out there and shine you and then you're done. Recovering is a ***** vs Fox but you gotta make it not easy for him.

that whole set did not reflect my improvement at all, which sucks.

literally everything you mentioned, i improved on so much since the last time i played at the same tourney a few months back. i got in my own head because when i found out i had to play sylar, i thought to myself "yeah i can beat him easily". its true, i can beat him because i started beating him in friendlies afterward, but i put too much pressure on myself and just started doing way too many dumb things. gotta change my mindset and get rid of the bad psyche, 'warrior spirit' if you say.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

that whole set did not reflect my improvement at all, which sucks.

literally everything you mentioned, i improved on so much since the last time i played at the same tourney a few months back. i got in my own head because when i found out i had to play sylar, i thought to myself "yeah i can beat him easily". its true, i can beat him because i started beating him in friendlies afterward, but i put too much pressure on myself and just started doing way too many dumb things. gotta change my mindset and get rid of the bad psyche, 'warrior spirit' if you say.

It sounds to me like you didn't properly respect him. I ran into that problem at Tipped Off 10 as well and now I know to not do that. Don't let it get to your head too much that it's a serious match. Practice shadowboxing on your own and pretend like it's a tournament environment. The more you get used to this mindset of playing, the better you'll be able to deal with it.

 

[Divinokage]

that whole set did not reflect my improvement at all, which sucks.

literally everything you mentioned, i improved on so much since the last time i played at the same tourney a few months back. i got in my own head because when i found out i had to play sylar, i thought to myself "yeah i can beat him easily". its true, i can beat him because i started beating him in friendlies afterward, but i put too much pressure on myself and just started doing way too many dumb things. gotta change my mindset and get rid of the bad psyche, 'warrior spirit' if you say.

Let go of expectations, just play the damn match! lol. If you have time to think about it's too easy or too hard then you aren't actively thinking about reads, your habits and his habits.

 

[spider_sense]

Kage's right, don't worry about thinking too hard on everything and focus on the task at hand. Bodying that guy.

 

[Coastward]

well, i did body him afterwards, so that makes me feel better.

not gonna be a little ***** anymore, gonna crush faces.

 

[Divinokage]

That kind of issue might be more deeply rooted than you can imagine though. I said yesterday I think that a lot of smashers suffer from low confidence, you have to let that go too then focus on your path you want to achieve. There's nothing more important than feeling great about yourself.

 

[Coastward]

That kind of issue might be more deeply rooted than you can imagine though. I said yesterday I think that a lot of smashers suffer from low confidence, you have to let that go too then focus on your path you want to achieve. There's nothing more important than feeling great about yourself.

i dont see it as a confidence issue, im super confident when i'm at tournaments. i dont give enough respect to people when i should, and then it ****s with my head and i start doing dumb ****. i dont even know if thats considered a confidence issue still.

 

[Linguini]

Tec0 is the homie, but yo get off my boy ace's d!ck

Apparently darkrain is coming to some tourney near me soon...time to get bodied with ganon then switch to marth trolol

 

[PseudoTurtle]

Tec0 is the homie, but yo get off my boy ace's d!ck

Apparently darkrain is coming to some tourney near me soon...time to get bodied with ganon then switch to marth trolol

Giving out infractions to me or anyone else for silly reasons is enough to make me not feel too strongly about the dude... having nothing to do with ace's ****... lol.

And he plays sheik. Nuff said.

The day darkrain loses to a ganon in tournament will be a sign of the apocalypse. Too much Eddie/Dmac practice and old school strats. Yo @ Divinokage have you taken a set of darkrain before? I know you had that really close money match way back when and then that... not so close set at FC

I can't wait to play that dude again. @ Moy were you around when Dart beat him at SMYM? Absolutely sick set.

Anyway, all this talk about darkrain and it just so happens that I got the bizz-darkrain vid in the process of being written up. Stay tuned.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Everytime I play my Falco friend I feel like I learn more and more how to play against Falco and I'm getting more strong in that matchup.
Now if I can just get my Doc to be as good as my Ganon I'd be in a happy place. My Doc is like halfway from where my Ganon is at, and my Ganon just keeps getting better.

Wish I would have had some of those games recorded. I was going in.

 

[PseudoTurtle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oGfFojJyN4

First video: Bizzarro Flame vs. Darkrain

I'm considering just making a new thread of these video analysis things so as not to clog up the main thread here. But I'm pretty sure most of us frequent this thread pretty much exclusively, so I'll start here and see where it takes us.

So, as I'm sure you all know, ganon-falcon is kind of tough for ganon. Definitely not his hardest matchup, but far from his easiest. One of my more experienced matchups, so I hope that my input can be of some sort of value for the new guys or even the higher level ganons who are unfamiliar with the falcon matchup. In terms of counterpicks, I personally despise FoD, so I can't say anything about the pick (def would rather go to battlefield), but a lot of you ganons like FoD vs falcon, so I'll go with bizzarro flame's better judgement on this one.

Anyway, the point of these video analyses is to mark every time (or almost every time) a ganon gets hit and discuss what could have been done instead. No disrespect to the players, just some form of advice.

So, right off the bat, at
0:05, bizzarro does some waveland stuff off the top platform to come down with a fair. Obviously, this is done to give bizzarro more range on the fair and render darkrain's dash dance useless. Unfortunately, darkrain is too good and outspaces it, getting the grab. I think bizz had the right idea, but he committed a little too hard here and got punished. Maybe if he delayed it a bit?

0:11, bizz goes for the full hop stomp for maximum punishment, but darkrain shields it. Knowing (or reacting to the fact that) darkrain would try and jump out of his shield to punish, bizz bairs to stuff him.

0:15, bizzarro gets grabbed because he was shielding (obvious). Just before, he missed the L-cancel on his bair, so I think he went into panic mode and started blocking just in case anything happened... Too many players do this- the best punish that a falcon can get on you at that percent is a grab (or nair --> grab, which is CCable), so the last thing you want to do is shield. I would say he should have jabbed, since 99% of the time when a falcon is DDing at that range, they're looking for a grab. Darkrain garbbed him and he got knee'd.

0:22, bizz tried to shield grab. The knee is safe on shield and darkrain spaced it in such a way that even if he did it too early, it was still out of grab range. Before this, he threw out an ftilt to keep darkrain from coming in. To be honest, I have no better suggestion for this lol, darkrain just read it and waited for it to come out before throwing out the knee. Anyway, instead of shield grabbing (because it cost him the stock), you'd probably have to make a read on what your opponent is gonna do... shielding in this position is never a good thing and darkrain actually reacted on his shield grab to get the grab that won him the stock. What do you guys think bizzarro should have done in this situation rather than shield grab?

Here's the first stock. I know it's short and there's much, much more to come. Just wanted to get this out here as a first because I have some homework I gotta take care of.

 

[n0ne]

Ignore dis ****e

 

[n0ne]

I just watched that vid of n0ne vs windrose. Those techs are old technology but I liked how fluid he remained and most of his decision making in the neutral game. Some missed opportunities but he was styling a little, I'm sure he's aware of it. Could have easily been a 3-4 stock, I approve.

Sometimes old tech is overlooked

 

[Divinokage]

i dont see it as a confidence issue, im super confident when i'm at tournaments. i dont give enough respect to people when i should, and then it ****s with my head and i start doing dumb ****. i dont even know if thats considered a confidence issue still.

That depends you'd have to go a little more indepth about something like this because I don't really know anyone closely as a person. I don't know what kind of thoughts you have when you fight in a match.

 

[cptjiggles69]

So im shield dropping now.. Compliments to @tm for the motivation. Why couldnt we get any more games in at big house????!!!!!!1111

I played a decent amount vs pseudoturtle and eikelmann.. Ggs to both

I only use up angled up tilts vs falcon... For all other situations.. Retreating bairs are better imo

Is there any new material from u dorfs? I randomly found one of mine while on youtube

@ Coastward i know im sounding like a beaaaach but will u upload my set vs coffeeblack anytime soon?

http://youtu.be/Kagsl0dz8vA

I think if you are on edge back throw to tipman is the best follow up, setups for edgehuards ! Or even a tilt first

 

[Coastward]

That depends you'd have to go a little more indepth about something like this because I don't really know anyone closely as a person. I don't know what kind of thoughts you have when you fight in a match.

i'll use that match as an example of what went on in my head:

>find out im playing sylar
>"oh i can do this, he'll go fox it'll be easy"
>we play and he starts off strong and immediately i think, "**** i underestimated this"
>brain sends spaghetti to my hands and i start flubbing stuff and i just dont think straight

thank god raynex was there for game 2, he gave me the realization i needed and almost made the comeback.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

@ PseudoTurtle I think Bizzarro should have done a retreating upair out of shield instead of a shield grab at 0:22. This way, the upair would have most likely connected and since he would be retreating it would be safe and auto cancel. It would also cover where darkrain might be, so if Bizzaro hits with it, he can convert off of it, and if he misses, he is less likely to get punished than a shield grab.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

i'll use that match as an example of what went on in my head:

>find out im playing sylar
>"oh i can do this, he'll go fox it'll be easy"
>we play and he starts off strong and immediately i think, "**** i underestimated this"
>brain sends spaghetti to my hands and i start flubbing stuff and i just dont think straight

thank god raynex was there for game 2, he gave me the realization i needed and almost made the comeback.

You focused on the fact that he's playing Fox and that is was going to be easy for you. Big mistake. Don't take into account who you are playing, pretend that it is just another (good) Fox main and that you just need to play the matchup like you do with most other Foxes. Just remember to pick up on his habits and to change up yours so that you're not easy to read.

Seriously, just don't care who you're playing. Just care that it is a matchup that you are familiar with.

 

[Coastward]

You focused on the fact that he's playing Fox and that is was going to be easy for you. Big mistake. Don't take into account who you are playing, pretend that it is just another (good) Fox main and that you just need to play the matchup like you do with most other Foxes. Just remember to pick up on his habits and to change up yours so that you're not easy to read.

Seriously, just don't care who you're playing. Just care that it is a matchup that you are familiar with.

he doesnt main fox, he mostly plays marth. that's why i thought it was gonna be easy. pretty dumb mistake now that i think about it. once he started taking the lead i was just thinking about my play and not about his.

 

[n0ne]

I think if you are on edge back throw to tipman is the best follow up, setups for edgehuards ! Or even a tilt first

Are u ok?

 

[Divinokage]

he doesnt main fox, he mostly plays marth. that's why i thought it was gonna be easy. pretty dumb mistake now that i think about it. once he started taking the lead i was just thinking about my play and not about his.

Hmm.. Well I only give as much respect as the character they picked no further than that. Let's say Pkm picks Sheik instead of Marth this time vs me, I just nod and get ready to punish Sheik stuff. While it's happening, if i get hit then I take note of it why i got hit and how he punished it, the greatest players are usually the ones that can see the patterns immediately. Like they go beyond of expecting getting punished twice the same way so they mix it up immediately. I dont think Im quite able to do that yet but im well aware it's happening. If I keep grinding these kinds of situations it's going to get easier to be one step ahead of someone else. It really all depends how they want to punish you.

So ya it doesn't really matter who they are, they are humans just like me, they have to make decisions. I guess the human respect is what i give to people, not the player skill at all. Theres no reason to get scared or nervous if the guy might be worse or better than you. Once you can fully focus on the task at hand, it'll be much easier to play relaxed and also improve tremendously in short amounts of time. It's about how quickly you understand yourself, the game and the opponent.

A top mtl SF player named Snafoo talked to me about the theory of 2. It means good players will start to switch things up if they punished by the same thing twice in one match but the great players will already expect the 2nd attempt of the same tactic. It's quite interesting.. =P

Good example: You got hit by 1 Falco laser, is he going to jump and do another one? Or will he bait you to throw a move? That's already a HUGE difference between average and great Falcos.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

http://youtu.be/Kagsl0dz8vA

i stopped watching because http://youtu.be/Kagsl0dz8vA?t=55s made me too upset lol, good stuff though.

Apparently darkrain is coming to some tourney near me soon...time to get bodied with ganon then switch to marth trolol

what if it's the other way around?

A top mtl SF player named Snafoo talked to me about the theory of 2.

that dhalsim tho. ever play him?

 

[Divinokage]

that dhalsim tho. ever play him?

Plenty of times but he destroys me in SF.. currently impossible to beat him. lol.

 

[cptjiggles69]

Haha sorry i think i replied to the wrong post man. Phone johns

Are u ok?

Coast has to upload your set with coffeeblack already!

 

[Coastward]

IAN WHAT THE **** IS YOUR SIG LMAOOOOO

 

[cptjiggles69]

I'm trying to pay attention more to the characters rather than who i am playing. When i relax things co e more fluidly rather than being all tense and messing up

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

IAN WHAT THE **** IS YOUR SIG LMAOOOOO

It's the winner of Pancrase 259 by unanimous decision, Takuya Eizumi

 

[Divinokage]

I'm trying to pay attention more to the characters rather than who i am playing. When i relax things co e more fluidly rather than being all tense and messing up

Don't just try, do it! ALL YOUR WILL POWER, FOCUS!!!

Also, lolll at the sig, I saw this before.. its too funny.

 

[spider_sense]

lol Kage, you should play the people in my region. Flash Metroid is ridiculous. Thank God Ryan Hunter showed me some **** with Cody, now I at least put in some serious work. (2nd best cody in FL) lol

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I'll come back when we start talking about Ganondorf again.