Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I'm also abandoning Ganondorf unfortunately. Marth and Fox are just too much fun, and I want to have a chance to win the Arcadian tournament we're having this month, and my Ganon just isn't good enough.

Still gonna play him in friendlies and against other mid tier characters tho.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

Is approaching her with fairs good at all? What if its a high jump fair so you get the further hhitbox? And yeah i noticed the jab is bad against sheik

I only use fairs against sheik if I'm far enough away so that she can't buff it out before the hitbox comes out. I also try to space it so that she can't ftilt or shield grab. I will also sometimes space it so I can get a jab off before she tries to punish me for the whiff.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

also gl with your other characters guys. but ganon4life. i'm never switching. the only way to make ganon work is to believe he can beat anyone. that's the mentality that gets you far. at least this is what i've gathered from few top level players i've had the fortune of playing against.

 

[dERO!]

who did you lose to? i try not to crouch much vs sheik unless i know they're coming in with something that i can crouch cancel. it's a pretty restrictive position otherwise.

playing conservatively is really important, especially in pal since fair isn't really a thing. you should be sticking to mostly bair and tilts to deal with shiek on the ground. could be wrong, though. i haven't played a good shiek in over 6 months.

to a shiek from my area, sent him in loosers 3-0 a few hours and drink before the gf, but he fixed what I capitalized on beforehand during our bracket set and couldn't find another solution.

yeah i think you're right on the crouching, the bairs are tricky tho due to needles, i feel. Angled ftilts got me safe, quite often, i'll try to get better at using em

thanks i'll keep that in mind for next time, gotta play him again anyways for an event this month

 

[cptjiggles69]

Same. My ganon can finally take on marth's and falcons, working on the sheik strategy. I play other characters for fun but then i swotch back to ganon and it feels soo comfortable

also gl with your other characters guys. but ganon4life. i'm never switching. the only way to make ganon work is to believe he can beat anyone. that's the mentality that gets you far. at least this is what i've gathered from few top level players i've had the fortune of playing against.[/quote

 

[Coastward]

im having a mental block with ganon, i feel like im not getting any better.

i go back to watch matches and study everything, but i feel no improvement since my placements are always the same. pls send help.

 

[cemo]

im having a mental block with ganon, i feel like im not getting any better.

i go back to watch matches and study everything, but i feel no improvement since my placements are always the same. pls send help.

You should always have something you're actively working on improving. Something explicit, other than tech skillz and dirty combos.
Personally I've been working a lot on stage control and positioning. Understanding when you're in a poor position, and when you're in a strong position. Understanding what options you have compared to theirs.

You want to work on these broad fundamental skills first, as they help you improve the most. So knowing not only how to do move x here, but why it's a strong move and what it's accomplishing. Then you can start moving to looking at more specific situations, like edgeguarding, being edgeguarded, stage control, punishes, escaping punishes, breaking neutral.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

You should always have something you're actively working on improving. Something explicit, other than tech skillz and dirty combos.
Personally I've been working a lot on stage control and positioning. Understanding when you're in a poor position, and when you're in a strong position. Understanding what options you have compared to theirs.

You want to work on these broad fundamental skills first, as they help you improve the most. So knowing not only how to do move x here, but why it's a strong move and what it's accomplishing. Then you can start moving to looking at more specific situations, like edgeguarding, being edgeguarded, stage control, punishes, escaping punishes, breaking neutral.

Well that stuff isn't really something you can practice on your own; it's an understanding that comes from studying yourself and consciously applying these strategies in your friendlies.

Explicit stuff like tech skill is very important to practice. All the best up-and-comers are implementing a combination of the aforementioned thought process and perfect tech skill to get better. The goal is to be able to do anything you set your mind to.

That being said, Coastward, surely there is tech you have not mastered yet, or at least to the point you don't have to think about it. And of course, going back and looking for patterns in your play; things you're messing up on on a regular basis will help you eradicate these problems from your game.

 

[cemo]

That's true, but I think that it can be actively worked on. Albeit it's a lot harder to work on mindsets and thought processes than tech and movement, but it's at least a good thing to keep in mind. Of course, you should always work on your tech skill and movement anyways as it lets you use things way more efficiently. I just like giving mindset advice more.

 

[-ACE-]

Example of SHFFL'd fair giving Fox a free nair approach even with immediate dash retreat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDPNk9SE-eM#t=1m6s

randomly watched this video and just thought I'd show this example of the opening(s) a SHFFL'd fair gives Fox with this amount of space. At around this space the only aerials that don't give fox a free nair approach are retreating uairs, run away bairs, and auto canceled bairs.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

He should've jabed. Otherwise, that wouldn't of happened. Albeit, it's hard to predict when a fox is going to come in like that, but he gave up center stage by running back so it's safe to say it was a bad move.

 

[-ACE-]

Jab would have traded after the fair I think, which isn't bad. Had he retreated more with it, definitely. Had he jabbed or tilted intially (instead of the fair), and fox approached at the same time, you would have more than enough time to jab again (or if more time/space was available, fitlt), or shield, shield DI, buffer roll/spot dodge/jump if he had to.

Had he done a retreating uair and fox approached at the same time, be could have dj wavelanded forward off the platform and bair'd him as he landed.

a short dd to a running away SHFFL'd bair may have straight up beat this approach. Of course it is a hard read but it would be safe (at worst trade with his nair) and quick DD's are normally a good bait at that space imo.

He could have wavedashed back also to create space in this instance also, and gain the extra options that being under a platform provides. And if Fox hadn't closed the space in time, he could cover the nair approach with the SHFFL'd fair without giving fox an opening.


Not trying to critique Kage, naming a bunch of options that probably would have worked is really easy to do after the fact lol. But I think stuff like this leads to good discussion/debate. If I see good examples of things while watching videos from time to time I'll probably post them on the boards with a link and my thoughts.

 

[Divinokage]

Good news: 3-1ed Bl@ck Chris' random vs. my Ganon. He went Puff, I lost, Bowser, I won, Samus, I won, and then Bowser, I won with both of us being on last stock, me at 100+% and him with a fresh stock, I back-throw him off stage and then immediately down-b spiked him for the win. Been wanting to pull that off for a while.

Bad news: Lost to a Puff friend who has been learning Puff pretty well. Went to FoD and I ended up losing. I tried to fair and bair more than I should have and he just kept his shield up and played better. The desperation was starting to get to me, and that was ultimately my downfall. I know how to play the matchup, I just didn't play patient enough and space correctly.

Also, as much as I hate to say it, I really want to start winning tournament matches and I just cannot do with with Ganon right now. I'll still be playing Ganon and making sure my skill with him doesn't diminish, but I will not be playing him in tournament for a while. I will be playing Falcon for a while simply because he's just an overall better character and I definitely have more potential to win with him than Ganon. I'm not saying that I'm dropping Ganon fully as he will still remain as my main, I'll still play as him and improve, I just don't feel he's ready for tournament yet.

It more sounds like YOU aren't tournament ready yet. Plus, you are picking a character with arguably the same bad matchups as Ganon does which will not necessarily help you. It will only really help if you are actually more comfortable with him in a certain matchup you've played countless of times. Could you concretely tell me what you can do better with Falcon than Ganon? Just note, this isn't a guilt trip for quitting Ganon lol, it's to know if you actually have a good game plan.

 

[-ACE-]

oh look, kage found his way back to the boards. lol

 

[PseudoTurtle]

The warrior returns. Damn dude when was your last post on this thread lol

And PK, I don't know why you're advocating the use of fair vs sheik. Not a good move IMO and very situational. Not trying to sound like an ass lol, just don't want to spread the wrong info.

Vs. fox, a retreating fair can be good (although, as ACE covered, there are better options for certain situations) because kage definitely could have jabbed after that and at the very least traded. If you whiff a fair vs sheik, you don't have that option to jab, because sheik can dash, crouch, dsmash, and dtilt under your jab. If you whiff a fair vs any competent sheik, you're going to get grabbed or dash attacked 99/100 times. The only fair that I would say is actually safe vs sheik is a full hop fair when you can double jump afterwards. But that's highly situational and needles can definitely still stuff/punish you.

Bair into d-angled ftilt is good and so is dtilt. Crouch cancelling into dtilt is ok, but don't do it too much because sheik will just be stupid as always and needle you for it and go in for a free grab (read: stock). I'm still at a loss regarding the sheik matchup and at this point I'm still kind of relying on the fact that my opponent won't know how to fight ganon lol, I just throw out a bunch of uairs to try and stop that ***** from spamming areals.

 

[cptjiggles69]

What if vs sheik its a backwards jumped fair when she approaches?

 

[cptjiggles69]

Maybe skytch has more of a falcon mindset and prefers being more combo oriented? But like kage said they both have similar bad matchups. Well do whatever feels more comfortable

 

[Divinokage]

Well vs Sheik, you HAVE to play footsies with her heavily meaning you have to stay grounded and control the center.

CC at like 0-60% can prevent Sheik for approaching safely. If she jabs in that state, you can grab.. if she dtilts/ftilts you can also do it, however if she does it maximum range you may want to jab to push her away. Ftilt should at least make her shield which is what you want as well since her OOS options are pretty crappy because you'll never approach from the top obviously. When she's shielding you can try to be a threat where you can hit her then either stuff a jump with a move or after a move was thrown. This is all prediction, there's absolutely no reaction involved in this. It might seem like it's reactions but in reality it's just being aware of what moves can possibly come out from certain ranges. And you increase that knowledge by training that specific situation so you will be ready for it.

For example, how to punish Full Jump Fair from Sheik. If she whiffs it then you can uair really quickly right? If she does it too high then you can shield grab. If she tries to cross you up somehow then you can probably bair her too. See? A lot of possible responses for 1 option, you need to know this.

Dtilt in that matchup i dont really recommend it because if you whiff or it gets shielded, it's an automatic block punish with sheik's grab.

So ya, all I can really say is be precise with movement and learn your moves depending on what can possibly come out from point blank or from far away. Fair should be used as a counter-attack to go around Sheik's Fair or bair for example.. it's pretty much aerial footsies. =P There's also conditions on how to aerial, I only do it if I can at least hit a character so that they'll be forced to shield at the minimum, I also do it to techchase on platforms or ground and also used as a counter-attack.

 

[Divinokage]

Let me also add this.. Dash dancing is a threat for your moves, it's pretty pointless to do it if you are too far away from someone because in most cases you are cornering yourself. View it as an adjustment to space your moves. Falcon can do it well simply because he can jump horizontally VERY far so it's kinda hard to guess which move he wants to throw out.. it's usually Nair but he can also jump backwards then knee you in the face if you approached carelessly. So all this means, you must understand how far moves can reach and what kind of block string you can do but Ganon doesn't have any he can do safely which adds to the reason that you never want a character right on you. You want them at most at jab range not closer. Fair -> Jab is a frame trap meaning, if your opponent did anything in between Fair and Jab he will get hit but if he keeps blocking Jab isn't safe on shield so you'll likely get grabbed. Not worth it, too risky for the reward.

Wavedashing is also for position but it's also a cue for your opponent to say: "I'm ready for an attack" Don't do it too often because you will get easily mixed up if you throw something out right after it. It can be used to cover options while techchasing very well though especially on platforms. And also used to evade attacks but make sure your opponent chases you first to hit them back. =)

Falling aerials, be really careful with this one.. again only use it if you are absolutely sure you can hit him or if you can get a reversal situation for example baiting a double jump aerial making him think he'll hit you but then you aerial him instead. Very situational and risky, A LOT of player get punished for this because they don't understand the risk for being in the air already and also the risk by being above someone. It's always bad being on platforms if the opponent is grounded, you need to reverse this position ASAP.

That's pretty much what I can say for now. =)

 

[cptjiggles69]

My goodness kage. You are like a book of knowledge. Thanks for the tips. Some of this i have had to figure out myself. I agree dash dancing with ganon... Why lol. I used to do it but now i play smarter.There is not much you can do out of it. I might like to add too that against certaon characters ie fox or falcon i find short hops are punishable . By the time ganon jumps falcon has already kneed him. I definitely find use for full hopping in situations.

 

[-ACE-]

Dash dancing has its place, as long as you use it wisely within the appropriate spacing range (depends on matchup). Keep it short and it can be a great bait in the neutral game or techchasing. Like most other maneuvers, it only kills your options if you over commit... And the only way to over commit is to do it for too long.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

It more sounds like YOU aren't tournament ready yet. Plus, you are picking a character with arguably the same bad matchups as Ganon does which will not necessarily help you. It will only really help if you are actually more comfortable with him in a certain matchup you've played countless of times. Could you concretely tell me what you can do better with Falcon than Ganon? Just note, this isn't a guilt trip for quitting Ganon lol, it's to know if you actually have a good game plan.

Personally, I really like Falcon's movement over Ganon. I can basically do anything movement-wise that I want with Falcon cause not only is he really fast on the ground, but in the air as well. A lot of Falcon's moves are just better and have more practical uses. Playing a fast and efficient Falcon is what I believe will win me matches more than the Ganon that I am currently playing. I do have the tendency to try to style with Falcon, but that would only be in friendlies cause it's fun to do that. I just don't like being too restricted by my movement when I don't have a projectile to use. Wavelands do help a bunch, but I have not yet properly implemented wavelanding into my game the way that I want to for tournament that is tricky and unpredictable and that will win me games (hell, if that's even possible.) I just feel like I have a lot of freedom with Falcon and I'm able to react to what my opponent is doing more freely.

I don't know if it's just in my head, but there are times where I'm thinking very clearly with Falcon and I just play really well. I tend to miss a lot of my tech in tournament with Ganon and that really will frustrate me and make me not want to use it, subjecting me to use basic moves that are easy to read and counter. I don't use nearly as much tech-skill with Falcon, so maybe that's part of it. It's just hard for me to use Ganon's tech skill the way that I think is efficient (wavelanding off platforms and doing more than just immediately attacking and other things of that sort.) Basically, I'm autopiloting my tech-skill, and that's not really a good thing. I try to take things too fast as Ganon and I can't play him as fast as I want to sometimes, while with Falcon I can basically go as fast as I want, and I tend to get some really good combos going as well.

Don't get me wrong, there have definitely been times where my Ganon has been absolutely on and destroy my opponent, but that's only with opponents who are at or below my skill level. I want to beat people above my skill level and I feel like I can only do that, at the moment, with a character that has much more movement options.

 

[-ACE-]

You're saying that you only solidly beat people that are at your skill level or lower, but that has everything to do with what matchups you're most likely to encounter in tournament. I could lose to a sheik that's only been playing for 6 months and then the next set beat the best mewtwo in the world. But I'm not going to encounter mewtwo's as ganon, in fact even a mew2 main with any sheik experience could probably play sheik and have just as good of a shot (most likely better) lol. Thats just an example but this goes along with what Kage is talking about... the importance of matchups. I play for fun and I'll recommend that you play whatever character you enjoy the most, because in the end, that will result in you playing more melee and the last thing we need is people quitting haha. But if you have put a lot of work into Ganon, you never know... you may go back, or you may want to use him for certain matchups.... and if there's any chance you might enjoy playing a character that DOES cover his problem matchups, and you were actually serious about doing well in tournament, you might want to consider it again.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

So guys, apparently ganon is worse than mario and luigi now. Discuss.

 

[Superspright]

Ganondorf is fine for a lot of match ups, but Shiek is most likely not one of them. What do you want to be? A good melee player, or a good Ganondorf player? I pick the former, but I like to play Ganondorf well because it's rewarding. He's probably not a truly viable all-in main. He definitely has his niches where he does well against certain people or certain characters you can tune the match-up to go nearly even if you get good enough, but whatever. Ganondorf has weaknesses--really bad ones. Good luck covering them.

[EDIT]

He is worse than both of them, unfortunately. He has no projectile, and his wavedash isn't as good. His smash moves suck so he has to go aerially typically which is a bad commitment against the faster characters in the game unless you can always waveland or triangle jump like a boss? I dunno. He's not a very quick character at all which is why he kind of sucks. Maybe someone is going to find a way to play him that makes him shine, but as of right now his potential seems fairly limited by a moveset that is both slow, and also moves that are unusable in virtually any situation [warlock punch/ utilt, nair]. If those three moves were usable he might be on the viable side. He needs ground speed to be more viable, and he doesn't have it, and he really needs shield pressure to be top-tier material. Peach, Fox, Falco, Yoshi all have it. Ganondorf only has shield pressure on edge-cancelled aerials but those are impossible to setup on someone who is thinking.

 

[X WaNtEd X]

And PK, I don't know why you're advocating the use of fair vs sheik. Not a good move IMO and very situational. Not trying to sound like an *** lol, just don't want to spread the wrong info.

I'm advocating for correct use of the fair. I agree, it's a pretty bad move in most cases and is easily punishable. That's why it's of the utmost importance people understand how and when to use it.

What do you want to be? A good melee player, or a good Ganondorf player?

I pick the latter. The former will come with that.

 

[-ACE-]

Ganondorf is fine for a lot of match ups, but Shiek is most likely not one of them. What do you want to be? A good melee player, or a good Ganondorf player? I pick the former, but I like to play Ganondorf well because it's rewarding. He's probably not a truly viable all-in main. He definitely has his niches where he does well against certain people or certain characters you can tune the match-up to go nearly even if you get good enough, but whatever. Ganondorf has weaknesses--really bad ones. Good luck covering them.

Superspright are you no longer a ganon main?

 

[Superspright]

I main Gdorf, but I am trying to use other characters to cover the abysmal matchups or ones I can't work around. I'm always trying to learn new ways on how to beat Shiek, or Fox, or Falco. Falco and Fox i don't feel too bad with, but Shiek feels like hell the entire time...not much I can do against one who is playing around me rather than into my crap. A lot of feinting has to be done and it has to be played flawlessly to be one. CG is a must, and cannot be dropped and has to be finished with a powerful move that starts an edgeguard opportunity. It's the only way to even come close to winning the match-up. Anyone who says CG or not? You should just say CG. What's the difference between ftilt ftilt ftilt ftilt utilt fair and a chain of grabs? Not much. I'll take my ace in the hole rather than give it up so they can get an even bigger advantage in the match up. Their hand is loaded up anyway.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I want to win. I want to make it out of pools. I want to make it far in bracket. I want to be power-ranked.

I've been to like 15 tournaments in the past year and the best I've done is go 3-2 at a local. My goal at CEO is to make it out of pools, at the very least.

If going Falcon isn't the right choice for Ganon's bad matchups, then who is? Marth? Fox? Falco?

 

[cptjiggles69]

Well i'll just have to become a dam good player then and tough it out for the bad MUs. But i am not giving up the triforce of power! I chose him for a reason. Hell i even have a ganondorf action figure. Still in the box sealed too haha

 

[cptjiggles69]

Look at amsa with yoshi. Very good stuff from him

 

[-ACE-]

I want to win. I want to make it out of pools. I want to make it far in bracket. I want to be power-ranked.

I've been to like 15 tournaments in the past year and the best I've done is go 3-2 at a local. My goal at CEO is to make it out of pools, at the very least.

If going Falcon isn't the right choice for Ganon's bad matchups, then who is? Marth? Fox? Falco?

I'd say falco. I kinda hate how many falcos are out there nowadays but falco takes care of all Ganon's problem matchups (fox/falco/sheik/puff) and against marth or peach you could even go Ganon a game if you wanted or felt like you had to. Fox does this but requires more skill than falco generally... better matchup with puff/peach, others debatable. Going marth wouldn't help your sheik problem much, and you could even run into trouble vs puff. Playing marth requires a careful, patient spacing game, with the ability to flip a switch and go into hard core combo(to death) mode once he has an opening. So it depends on your style. with falco you cab blindly approach and be ok in comparison to the others lol. And imo, falco is the best character to pick against fox... he has a lot of fox killing tools... gotta learn the ditto too though. Your call, but make sure you have fun with the character above all else.

 

[Clocked]

I've been playing a lot more Ganon as of late, and I just can't get the approach game right against Marth no matter what I do. It feels like I can never get close to the marth player without getting hit, grabbed, or worse. Sometimes I can trade and follow up with a fair/bair, but marth players just seem to start reading that after the first/second stock. Any ideas?

 

[-ACE-]

I've been playing a lot more Ganon as of late, and I just can't get the approach game right against Marth no matter what I do. It feels like I can never get close to the marth player without getting hit, grabbed, or worse. Sometimes I can trade and follow up with a fair/bair, but marth players just seem to start reading that after the first/second stock. Any ideas?

Well if you land a fair on marth's shield, it better be fully spaced. Keep practicing hitting your opponent with the very tip of the fair. If you do it correctly he can't grab you. But fairs are easily beaten in this matchup, so you should mainly use them after dthrows, for fulljump baits (aerial once, they come in, aerial again), and also avoiding moves (fulljump fair can avoid marth's utilt and you uair to punish on the way down, for example [situational]). In these type of situations you want to be inputting fair the frame after you've held jump long enough for it to be a full jump. Fair can be safe if you use it wisely, just don't toss it out there during the neutral game.... use it for techchasing, edgeguarding, whatever, but make sure you're connecting, at least with their shield. and fully spaced.

Bairs are a lot safer in the neutral game. A well spaced bair beats all of marth's approaches. Pivot SHFFL'd bair is faster than SHFFL'd fair. But a bair had better be fully spaced when you hit marth's shield also. More importantly though, bair is a great move for shield poking. As soon as marth's shield shrinks at all his head is exposed a good bit. If you can get used to the bairs hitbox and space Ganon's fist just on/above marth's head (it's hard to hit his head and not the shield but that is your goal), You'll start landing the hit a lot more often. Drift in for the shield poke, and immediately drift back before you land so you don't get shieldgrabbed. Then immediately dash away or wd away before you get grabbed lol. Try not to "approach" with bair. Just throw it out there and drift back like I just mentioned, auto cancel it, FF straight down and l-cancel, but don't jump backwards towards your opponent and try to bair him, you'll get punished. People love punishing bairs, so if you can bait them into thinking they have time to punish it, you can pivot ftilt them when they come in.

Uairs are awesome. This is your go-to punish as soon as marth jumps when he's in close or basically any time marth is in front of you and off the ground (or on a platform). You even have time to instant uair between fairs on marth's SH double fair if he doesn't fully space it. This is a lot more of a defensive type aerial in this matchup. It doesn't have a lot of range, so if you're hitting marth's shield with it you could get punished.

Dair... this is good for shield pokes on marth's foot (ganon's heel is at the center of the hitbox, the tip of his toe basically has no hitbox) and certain edgeguarding situations. Not a ton of approaching will be done with this move, obviously it is slow, and it's landing lag when L-canceled is 5 frames more than all of Ganon's other aerials so it's a big commitment (which of course comes with big reward usually...)

Nair.... you can't approach with this. Nair marth at 0% from a grab if there are platforms around. L-cancel the nair and go get your free techchase, unless you land both hits, then feel good about the damage and go pressure him. lol.

Wavelands are a great way to steal space, get grabs, and actually surprise marth (the only way you can really approach). Perfect wavelands are obviously the fastest and farthest traveling, but you don't want to go to far and over commit... then your move will be mis spaced, and you get punished. In any given situation, you can shorten the length of the waveland if you're fairly certain you know exactly where marth will be, or you can stick to the perfect waveland and switch up the move you are going to do at the end. Example: Perfect waveland to ftilt is a great approach. Easily punished at low%, more easily when it's not spaced well. If you know the perfect waveland would take you too far for a ftilt to be spaced right, you can jab or grab instead. It's good to know how to waveland consistently out of shorthops, fulljumps, and double jumps, for all of their animations (each animation [foward vs backward jumps] is different and requires slightly different timing because of the positioning of ganon's body). Fastfalling makes perfect wavelanding easier. You'd think that it would give you less time (and you certainly have to hit sideways and R/L immediately after fastfalling), but the game actually has to sort of "stretch" the window in which you can input airdodge and have it come out a perfect waveland as there are only 60 frames and only so many moments in time available where the command could be correctly inputted. If you are good at wavelanding from all his jumps, you can really keep him guessing. Lots of Ganons like to do a Fastfalled DJ into perfect waveland because it's the easiest to do. Your opponent can see that coming lol. They aren't always expecting it from a fastfalled shorthop (and dash + shorthop + fastfall + perfect waveland + fitlt has so much range!), and rarely from a perfect waveland on a platform (perfect waveland from platform + fastfall + perfect waveland on ground is insanely fast), so if you are well rounded in your wavelanding ability you will get more openings....

and whenever you can get one of these openings... GRAB MARTH. You can chaingrab him once from 0% (nair, and even the greedy dsmash are options here too), twice or more if he DI's full behind, then uair or pivot uair him (you can high ftilt if you don't have timing right) and depending on his DI he may be in a position where you could uair him again. Do whatever you can to keep marth above you. Stay grounded as much as possible, and DI away like a MF until you get right near the edge or you see that fsmash coming. Don't try to compete with marth's DD game, but you can do quick, smart DD's and bring him in, then use your bair (the best) or whatever move the situation calls for (even side-b and down-b have their place). Dash attacks are easily punishable, and dash-in dtilts are probably the hardest. See what his habits are.

and motivation just ran out.

 

[-ACE-]

Let me say one more thing about hitting a shield with an aerial in general. If they have a shielding habit, or if you have successfully (whether you meant to or not) conditioned them to shield the slightest bit early when you come in (because you're like every other Ganon and throw out aerials like candy on Halloween), you've got plenty of options.

1) The obvious Tomahawk (don't aerial, just FF, land, and grab him)
2) Shield poke (depends on matchup)

There are lots of people that are 100% certain when Ganon fair's their shield, he's going to jab. Either they've played Ganon's that jab every time or they picked up on it, I dunno. But it happens a lot. When you fair them they keep shielding for the jab.

3) Fair to jab
4) Fair to JCG. This is almost like a poor man's tomahawk. Just conditioning them to shield and them punishing them for it
5) Fair to slow, SH aerial (make them antsy to leave their shield while you're in the air seemingly so long from not fastfalling) and hit them as the drop their shield.

 

[Coastward]

ace going in HARD, time to just compile all of this stuff into a word document and study it.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I'd say falco. I kinda hate how many falcos are out there nowadays but falco takes care of all Ganon's problem matchups (fox/falco/sheik/puff) and against marth or peach you could even go Ganon a game if you wanted or felt like you had to. Fox does this but requires more skill than falco generally... better matchup with puff/peach, others debatable. Going marth wouldn't help your sheik problem much, and you could even run into trouble vs puff. Playing marth requires a careful, patient spacing game, with the ability to flip a switch and go into hard core combo(to death) mode once he has an opening. So it depends on your style. with falco you cab blindly approach and be ok in comparison to the others lol. And imo, falco is the best character to pick against fox... he has a lot of fox killing tools... gotta learn the ditto too though. Your call, but make sure you have fun with the character above all else.

I wouldn't mind playing Falco too much, my problem is I really don't use lasers much and I can't for the life of me use shine and jump-cancel correctly. I really doubt that I could play a Falco that almost never shines or lasers. Same thing goes for Fox really. Sheik is just... eh... like, I wouldn't mind playing her is her DD wasn't so ****. I'm really used to DDing in general and her's is just beyond bad. Using WDes to "DD" is a little wonky for me to do. Basically, I can't really play Sheik that well either. I have some decent amount of experience with Marth, I'm familiar with the moves that he has and what they do, but I tend to not play really smart as marth, and just hope to get a good tipper. I can't play Peach or Puff for the life of me cause floaties are hard (and not my style). That pretty much leaves Falcon and ICs. I'm not at all familiar with how ICs work, I just hit buttons and do things and somehow get desyncs going. At least with Falcon, I fully understand how this character works and his movement is something I'm very comfortable with. Maybe if I win with Falcon, and my opponent wants to take me to a small stage (i.e YS or FoD), I counterpick with Ganon?

 

[PseudoTurtle]

I want to win. I want to make it out of pools. I want to make it far in bracket. I want to be power-ranked.

I've been to like 15 tournaments in the past year and the best I've done is go 3-2 at a local. My goal at CEO is to make it out of pools, at the very least.

If going Falcon isn't the right choice for Ganon's bad matchups, then who is? Marth? Fox? Falco?

As of this point, I'm probably top 10 in Chicago (don't get that confused with midwest), and I placed 9th at the last EXP I attended, which had M2k, darkatma, and kels there and had a lot of people from downstate as well. I destroyed sheiks in pools, and took a game off of both kels and darkatma, who placed 2nd and 3rd respectively, behind M2K (they won their sets though). It's absolutely possible to place well as ganon, it's just a little more work! I've been playing for almost 2 and a half years now, and I didn't start getting good until maybe 2 years in and it's been tough... Ganon is a hard life to live lol.

As for falcon countering ganon's hard matchups... he does to a certain extent, but all of Ganon's hard matchups are hard for falcon as well, just less so. Falcon struggles vs fox, falco, and sheik, like Ganon. Instead of 80-20 sheik-ganon, it's like 6.5-3.5 sheik-falcon. Trail, the best ganon in the midwest, mains ICs and has a secondary ganon because all of ganon's bad matchups are IC good ones (falco, sheik) except maybe fox- if you're looking to really eliminate ganon's bad matchups and still play ganon, ICs are probably your best secondary. And then find someone that can take down foxes lol

 

[-ACE-]

Hey man I can't play falco either. I can do techy stuff but can't keep up with his necessary rhythm to be tricky in the neutral game. Falcon is fine, but at HIGH level, players (for the most part) are more ready for a good Falcon than a good Ganon (they just see it more often). Don't judge this off dr peepee because he's the best vs Ganon in the world, period. Don't judge it off intermediate level players (especially those that haven't traveled much) either. If they have decent offense they might find Ganon a much easier matchup than Falcon (couple that with the strong chance they've never faced a great Ganon). Travel more and make your decision. I've had the opportunity to play with basically everyone in NC, Southern VA, South Florida, and random other people around the eastern US during various tournies and random road trips. Matchup experience is everything and you certainly can't get it all from one person (or region imho). Ganon can do a lot. Marth is not a bad choice at all really, you just have to know the sheik and puff matchups... and never hope for a tipper. that makes marth fall victim to the "can't kill at high%" scenario even sooner. You just have to keep playing patiently. Falcon is an easy transition from Ganon for most people, but his problem matchups are exactly the same (he's better vs all of them by a very SMALL margin). But if you have fun with falcon go for it. You will never win a big tournament but hey, you knew that anyway and no one else posting here will either. But you can beat everyone in NC but pp. You know what Falcon is capable of, if that's cool with you go for it.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Maybe I could play Falcon in pools or something, so that I can get past less skilled people with ease, and then when I play some of the higher skilled players, I'll focus my energy on Ganon and play him.

That's just a theory really, but I want to test it.