How to safely recover with Marth.

[Cloudstealth]

Well the basics, wasting my second jump to grab the ledge isn't safe.
Some characters like G&W and a few others, can just dash attack and it will hit you through the stage. Like on BF or Yoshi's Island.

So the logical choice is to UPB to grab the ledge.
A problem arises from here, when getting on the stage. Usually my opponents will be next to the ledge to pressure it. So I can't walk on, or get up attack. Rolling is usually too slow, and letting go of the ledge and jumping on with an attack isn't safe either. So when you jump on the stage, if anyone else has noticed, you have lag. There's a whole landing animation where Marth's knees buckle, and in that whole animation you can do nothing.

I've tried dodging before I land, I've tried using my second jump across the stage, but the lag is always there. Is there no safe way to jump on the stage?

Best I've gotten is to let go of the ledge, and jump on the stage while Air Dodging through my opponent. Yet I am still landing in the same spot as if I rolled.

I've developed a new ledgeplay to try and keep opponents away, but letting go of the ledge and jump Nairing isn't 100% safe either. Even with Invincibility frames, you can still be hit or even grabbed, then you don't have your jump and your forced to recover with UPB alone.

Any ideas, getting back on the ledge has always seemed to have been a problem of mine, I'd be very grateful for any contribution.

 

[digitalmaster287]

I usually press the direction opposite to that I'm facing so that I drop off the ledge, but don't drop down and then I can do a double fair back on the stage. This gives me options too, like if they roll behind you, you can do a fair and then a bair. If they jump, do a fair and then an uair. and if they roll away, you can just land and continue with normal play.

 

[Ciel~Image]

I like to tap jump and then use the IASA frames on the "jump up" animation to use some other move. Fair, Counter, and Nair come out pretty quickly that way and counter especially can catch people off guard.

 

[Kitamerby]

Everyone's vulnerable when landing at any time for a few frames. Or is this that thing with Captain Falcon and a few others where they keep landing lag from their special even after sweetspotting?

But yeah, most people claim that ledgehopping attacks(drop and double jump up with an attack) is the best way to go.

 

[VietGeek]

Or is this that thing with Captain Falcon and a few others where they keep landing lag from their special even after sweetspotting?

Yes, and Marth is one of those unfortunate souls. He keeps the hard landing of Dolphin Slash and can't use its IASA frames to cancel out into another move unless he gets onto the stage via a grounded method (get-up attack, stand up from ledge, or roll back).

 

[Dr Peepee]

Use an attack right before you land. That way, you can have the lag of the attack instead of the lag from the jump. Just use a quick aerial like Fair or Uair.

 

[Steel]

I usually press the direction opposite to that I'm facing so that I drop off the ledge, but don't drop down and then I can do a double fair back on the stage. This gives me options too, like if they roll behind you, you can do a fair and then a bair. If they jump, do a fair and then an uair. and if they roll away, you can just land and continue with normal play.

And what if they shield grab you? They f throw you and you're back in the same position.

marth sucks on the ledge.

 

[Kitamerby]

And what if they shield grab you? They f throw you and you're back in the same position.

marth sucks on the ledge.

Don't get grabbed.

If you get shieldgrabbed out of a ledgehop, you're doing something wrong and need to stop being so predictable.

 

[legion598]

well if there standing to close to the ledge i just drop down and dolphin thru the stage while sweet spotting the ledge and this gives u a little time to get back on before they recover obviously this doesnt work perfectly at low percentages because theres not enough knock back but its decent and if they get stupid and try to edge hog u while doing it just stage spike them u might also try canceling the jump up momentum back on the stage with a counter or a forward b tho ur still open for a few frames -shrugs-

 

[Demonstormkill]

If they're too close to the ledge just drop a bit and uair or DS them. Also, what Dr.Peepee said.

 

[Cloudstealth]

Use an attack right before you land. That way, you can have the lag of the attack instead of the lag from the jump. Just use a quick aerial like Fair or Uair.

Fair enough, if i'm doing an attack it would probably be the DB though, because it'll hit after they Sidestep, or try to grab me.

And what if they shield grab you? They f throw you and you're back in the same position.

marth sucks on the ledge.

Yes that's the main problem, doing Fairs onto the stage gets you grabbed.

Don't get grabbed.

If you get shieldgrabbed out of a ledgehop, you're doing something wrong and need to stop being so predictable.

True, which is why I've developed some mixup, doing Nairs at the ledge about once or twice, and then jumping on and contering, when my opponent tries to do an attack that beats the Nair. Or after the Nairs I'll just jump over them and use my second jump to get far away.

well if there standing to close to the ledge i just drop down and dolphin thru the stage while sweet spotting the ledge and this gives u a little time to get back on before they recover obviously this doesnt work perfectly at low percentages because theres not enough knock back but its decent and if they get stupid and try to edge hog u while doing it just stage spike them u might also try canceling the jump up momentum back on the stage with a counter or a forward b tho ur still open for a few frames -shrugs-

The dolphin slash thing only works on characters who're scared to grab the ledge. When I continually Dolphin Slash up to sweet spot my enemy usually just ledge hogs me, and they have Invincibility frames so no it doesn't stage spike them. Then while I land on the stage with lag they get a free hit. The dolphin slash thing works best on Yoshi's Island because they can't see the blade coming through the stage. I've still been ledgehogged there, though.

The DB or counter is what I do, but I try to mix it up, so I don't get punished and knocked back out to the ledge.

Thanks for the advice guys, anyone else got any ideas of how to safely recover with Marth or some good mix up?

 

[Mighty_mo76]

Yes, the stalling Nairs to ledge hop counter are good, but the counter is something
I wouldn't bet my money on. It's just too risky if you predicted wrong and they charge a smash on your lag.

I'd say one just has to build a repertoire of tactics on the ledge and use them wisely.
I know, not very helpful but ledges are just difficult to deal with.

Some ideas:
Stalling aerials(means you regrab the ledge) > aerial onto stage.
Shieldbreaker stall (gets them scared) > any good option to recover with (even jumping)

 

[Demonstormkill]

There's a whole landing animation where Marth's knees buckle, and in that whole animation you can do nothing.

I've tried dodging before I land, I've tried using my second jump across the stage, but the lag is always there. Is there no safe way to jump on the stage?

Dr. Peepee was just pointing out that you don't have to deal with this lag... so if you, say, use your second jump across the stage as you described (which is probably not often a good idea), you wouldn't get the lag if you land with a fair.

I've never had any trouble from edgehogging if you just drop and uair their shield, then sweetspot the ledge again (hitting their shield again in the process). I don't think they have time to edgehog you if you keep the pressure on them. Repeat until you hit them, break their shield or they back off. Then aerial onto the ledge or just get up. If you just get up make sure you use an aerial as you land next time you jump, or you'll still get that lag. They can still give you trouble recovering, but standing right by the ledge doesn't seem like their best option. The difficulty might be more when they space themselves out of your stand up attack range as EL describes, to cover as many of your options as possible, but even then, marth has quite a few options to try to get back on stage safely.

I know my post count isn't exactly impressive (not to mention the name) but is there something wrong with what I'm saying here or am I being ignored anyway?

 

[Galeon]

Actually no. If you grabbed the ledge with your up-b and jump from the ledge, you'll have lag even if you come down with your fair. Your fair will come out and then you'll still experience your up-b lag. You have to use a b move coming down to counteract it.

 

[Demonstormkill]

So was EL wrong in this thread then?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=173951&highlight=up-B

I'd hope that as a Lucas main, you would know what you're talking about before making a matter-of-fact post like that in the marth forums.

 

[IDK]

did you forget ledge jumping? not ledge hopping, but just tapping jump while on the edge. one of the least expected options and just airdodge if you can. ledge hopped airdodges are ok, but yeah, lag. you can use the neutral b in the upper corner to get past the edge. an onto the stage. if you are a different character and theyre near the edge then you can shoot/throw/whatever it at the opponent to give you some room. ex: pit/ROB. with marth, if they go OFF to attack you, you could attack them to knock them back... just don't get spiked.

 

[DarkRunner00]

Isn't there the whole... % ...

"Tire" system...

0-approx 80% (any character - tested on Ike, Snake, Marth, Pikachu) have fast animation (no lag)

80+ (sometimes 100+) gives lag...

I mean... I get lag when I KNOW I didn't Up B...

Unless there's the actual factor of Up B Lag... which means it quadraples the lag effect upon the character?

For recoring.... don't take my advice...

but... Drop Up B to release their pressure (if they're at the edge where Dolphin Slash will hit through the stage)
and imediately drop -> jump onto the stage...

Depending on the situation... Counter, Fair, DB, Dtilt, Air Dodge (hold to shield), etc...

 

[Dr Peepee]

I meant that you use the quick aerial right before you land/as you land. It always works for me.

 

[Pierce7d]

Actually no. If you grabbed the ledge with your up-b and jump from the ledge, you'll have lag even if you come down with your fair. Your fair will come out and then you'll still experience your up-b lag. You have to use a b move coming down to counteract it.

Wrong.

Anyway, MY favorite and unique method is to drop down and poke at the above opponent with Uairs. This isn't too awesome at Yoshi's Island, but I don't have much trouble on that stage anyway, due to the ease in mindgames that middle platform presents.

It's really **** on Lylat Cruise, and highly underused. I suggest you try it.

 

[xandeR-]

The best thing to do is to mix things up.

Dedicating yourself to one way of getting back on the stage will only cause you trouble. Mixing things up by switching between ledge attack, ledge hopping, dodging and aerials will only help you. Also, it's always smart to throw in that up-b. Most forget about the knockback it offers and will usually get you on the stage and them off it on the other side when used in the proper situation.


Also, regarding actually getting TO the ledge, I saw in a video recently someone using side-b after their second jump to gain additional height before their up-b. Brilliant idea that I never thought of and I haven't seen it mentioned on here.

 

[3xSwords]

You can learn to sweet spot the edge with your second jump safely that might skip dealing with the upB lag altogether. I like attacking from under the stage just to get them to back off. Like uair or fair through the ledge on stages like Smashville.

However the safest way to get back on the stage with marth (I believe M2K said this) is using a fair in the IASA frames of a ledge jump where you just press jump from the ledge. M2K said something like you gain some invincibility frames on the fair and as a result probably the safest way to get on the stage while attacking.