How to overcome "plateaus" for Kirby

[aextreme73]

Does anyone ever feel like you can only get so far with Kirby? I've mained him for evers, since SSB, and now in Brawl, I never feel like playing other characters (other than pocketing Toon Link). I've been getting owned by Metaknights here and there, and Snakes as well. For more veteran Kirby mains, how do you guys do it? How does Kirby stay so competitive and not get frustrated against other top placing characters?

 

[*JuriHan*]

Does anyone ever feel like you can only get so far with Kirby? I've mained him for evers, since SSB, and now in Brawl, I never feel like playing other characters (other than pocketing Toon Link). I've been getting owned by Metaknights here and there, and Snakes as well. For more veteran Kirby mains, how do you guys do it? How does Kirby stay so competitive and not get frustrated against other top placing characters?

I think you can always work on your spacing. Spacing is very crucial for Kirby, because his entire moveset is easily shield-grabbed if you do not space your attacks perfectly.

I never get frustrated with Kirby... as long as I did my best and learned from my mistakes...

 

[aextreme73]

Yeah, I've been practicing a lot with spacing the bairs against my friends snake. But it doesn't seem to be very effective against Mk. Now that I think of it, kirbys entire moveset is easily shield grabbed. Mk matchup just makes it so frustrating. The matchup thread help with cp but it doesn't seem like there's any hope of neutrals. All I know is bairs, copy tornado and if your lucky occasional fsmash kill (and kirbicide).

 

[*JuriHan*]

Now that I think of it, kirbys entire moveset is easily shield grabbed.

This is true, sadly. Even u-tilt can be shield grabbed. This coupled with no safe approaches is Kirby's greatest weakness imo.

Mk matchup just makes it so frustrating. The matchup thread help with cp but it doesn't seem like there's any hope of neutrals. All I know is bairs, copy tornado and if your lucky occasional fsmash kill (and kirbicide).

B-air is a God-send against MK, it actually does well against his f-air. It's best to let him approach you and you punish him with it. U-tilt is generally safe as well because it's quick.

 

[Pink murder]

I've been hesitant to post here because I thought it belonged in the Q&A thread, but I'll give my thoughts.

Sniper is right, Bair against an MK is a must.
As for your question, I guess it would be the same reason why someone would main a Ganondorf, it's their preference. I for one feel comfortable playing Kirby, and would never trade him even for Snake or MK.


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[Asdioh]

Spoiler

How do I overcame plateau?

Right. What they said is important.

I can think of another couple ways to greatly improve, but it really depends on the luck of where you live. You live in Virginia, which I think is a great Smash state, though I don't know WHERE in Virginia you live.

The best way to improve is of course to play as many different types of people as you can. Recording replays and videos of yourself is also a huge asset. Watch matches against decent players multiple times, and every time you see yourself get hit, or do something stupid, think to yourself "what could I have done better?" and work on improving that.

Otherwise...just work on spacing, and playing unpredictably. Being too predictable is one of the easiest ways to lose with Kirby :/

 

[aextreme73]

This is true, sadly. Even u-tilt can be shield grabbed. This coupled with no safe approaches is Kirby's greatest weakness imo.





B-air is a God-send against MK, it actually does well against his f-air. It's best to let him approach you and you punish him with it. U-tilt is generally safe as well because it's quick.

Let him approach you? Everytime MK approaches, it seems to be by either tornado, drill rush, short hop d-airs, or something else that are tormenting. I guess that eliminates a huge part of the grab game to get bairs in.

I've been hesitant to post here because I thought it belonged in the Q&A thread, but I'll give my thoughts.

Sniper is right, Bair against an MK is a must.
As for your question, I guess it would be the same reason why someone would main a Ganondorf, it's their preference. I for one feel comfortable playing Kirby, and would never trade him even for Snake or MK.


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Oh. Don't get me wrong. I love playing as Kirby. I wouldn't main anybody else.

Spoiler

How do I overcame plateau?

Right. What they said is important.

I can think of another couple ways to greatly improve, but it really depends on the luck of where you live. You live in Virginia, which I think is a great Smash state, though I don't know WHERE in Virginia you live.

The best way to improve is of course to play as many different types of people as you can. Recording replays and videos of yourself is also a huge asset. Watch matches against decent players multiple times, and every time you see yourself get hit, or do something stupid, think to yourself "what could I have done better?" and work on improving that.

Otherwise...just work on spacing, and playing unpredictably. Being too predictable is one of the easiest ways to lose with Kirby :/

I live in the Northern VA, so I'm within range for MD tournaments, and Va tournaments down south. I am working on unpredictability and spacing, although it's a difficult climb practicing against Snake and MK over and over again.

THanks everyone for all the advice.

 

[Kewkky]

I tried writing a reply here yesterday, but the internet was so crappy it took like half an hour to tell me to refresh the page.

Remember that Kirby's fsmash goes through every B move of MK's, and Kirby's bair rivals MK's aerials. On the ground, go for shieldgrabs, ftilts, and if you can, a couple of utilt>bairs to rack up some easy damage. Don't try inhaling MK, it's hard to do, and the rewards aren't that amazing (unless you use tornado for recovering).

Kirby's all about reaction speed and punishing. He's definitely high tier, but you can only notice this when you polish your reaction speed, and learn all of Kirby's options. He's easy to learn, but like a lot of characters, the true potential isn't unlocked until you spend a lot of time perfecting your style (and making sure your reaction speed is top-notch). I, myself, will never give Kirby up (nor ZSS). To me, Kirby is a godsend and I have won some pretty unbearable matches with him (and ZSS), and to tell you the truth, I've spent way too much time learning him to simply drop him and spend the same amount of time with another character. My Kirby (and ZSS) are my favorite characters as well, I just can't enjoy a match to its fullest unless I'm using either of my mains.

 

[Lovely]

I feel this way with Samus. I use her a lot in the past Smash Bros except this one. However when I play Kirby, I can't get far with Snake and Marth on the road. );

 

[-Ran]

Here's a novel idea. Stop letting yourself get counter picked.

MK and Snake have advantages on you. [40-60 match ups.] This means, you don't just have to be good enough to beat your opponent, but you need to be vastly better than them at the match up to win. Now, if you would instead pick D3 against Snake, and MK against MK, you would find that you are going to start winning the matches that you should win.

 

[stealthwarrior17]

I think you can always work on your spacing. Spacing is very crucial for Kirby, because his entire moveset is easily shield-grabbed if you do not space your attacks perfectly.

I never get frustrated with Kirby... as long as I did my best and learned from my mistakes...

Well said, I'm not a Kirby main but I'm interested in him. Its the Taunt! HHHIIII! XD

 

[Delta Z]

Here's a novel idea. Stop letting yourself get counter picked. MK and Snake have advantages on you. [40-60 match ups.] This means, you don't just have to be good enough to beat your opponent, but you need to be vastly better than them at the match up to win.

Actually, for 40-60s, you only have to be a little better, or have more knowledge of the matchup. Vastly better for a 30-70, maybe, but not as extreme for 40-60.

 

[T1MMY]

"A little better" in high levels of play actually is a vast difference in skill level. Being "a little better" than a noob Snake isn't noteworthy, but being "a little better" than Mew2King's Meta Knight would be staggering. Playing with a handicap, i.e. with poor match-ups, is a very important part of serious competition.

 

[CaliburChamp]

Here's a novel idea. Stop letting yourself get counter picked.

MK and Snake have advantages on you. [40-60 match ups.] This means, you don't just have to be good enough to beat your opponent, but you need to be vastly better than them at the match up to win. Now, if you would instead pick D3 against Snake, and MK against MK, you would find that you are going to start winning the matches that you should win.

If your new to starting out with MK, you will get ***** in the MK ditto since so many people practice that ditto. You'll have better chances if you go Snake or Diddy vs MK. Grenades and Bananas out prioritize everything MK has, and MK is forced to approach them.

And I saw somebody posting how they need help not getting shield grabbed so much...
What I do is float around and use F-air like this, jump, f-air, jump back, c-stick f-air, float forward, float back c-stick f-air, float forward f-air, float forward, fast fall b-air, land on ground, up-tilt. It kind of tricks your opponents mind when you float forward and back with F-air. The only real counter for this is if your fighting a character with an Up-air like Zamus, because right before your floats end, you have to get behind the opponent and try to use a B-air, at the moment a character like Zamus can Up-air out of shield.

 

[ThreeSided]

If your new to starting out with MK, you will get ***** in the MK ditto since so many people practice that ditto. You'll have better chances if you go Snake or Diddy vs MK. Grenades and Bananas out prioritize everything MK has, and MK is forced to approach them.

And I saw somebody posting how they need help not getting shield grabbed so much...
What I do is float around and use F-air like this, jump, f-air, jump back, c-stick f-air, float forward, float back c-stick f-air, float forward f-air, float forward, fast fall b-air, land on ground, up-tilt. It kind of tricks your opponents mind when you float forward and back with F-air. The only real counter for this is if your fighting a character with an Up-air like Zamus, because right before your floats end, you have to get behind the opponent and try to use a B-air, at the moment a character like Zamus can Up-air out of shield.

Never move above ZSS. You will lose. x3

Maybe a few exceptions, but it would still be hard/close/most likely not worth it.

 

[fromundaman]

First to address the OP:

The thing that has helped me out the most recently is talking to other, better smashers, about how they play and think, and it has in turn helped me with reading and mindgaming, the thing I was lacking the most.

This weekend I was at a tourny, and talked to a Ganon player who got 7th (Considering Judge, Lain, M2K, Blue Rogue, and 3 more Power Ranked players from our state were there, as well as other good players, getting 7th with just Ganon is **** impressive!). I was asking him how he managed to make people walk into his attacks as much as he does, and he basically explained his whole mindset to me before we MMed then friendlied. I tried implementing this mindset during our matches, and he commented on how it was scary how fast I was improving just during those matches.

So basically... play more people, and ask them for advice both on your game and on their mindset. It really helps.


Now for the quotes:

Let him approach you? Everytime MK approaches, it seems to be by either tornado, drill rush, short hop d-airs, or something else that are tormenting. I guess that eliminates a huge part of the grab game to get bairs in.

Approaching with both Tornado and Drill Rush? Those are both very punishable options. Dairs are a bit harder to deal with, but still beatable (especially since Uair has more disjoincted range than MK's Dair).

Basically, play the MU more often to learn your options against everything.

Here's a novel idea. Stop letting yourself get counter picked.

MK and Snake have advantages on you. [40-60 match ups.] This means, you don't just have to be good enough to beat your opponent, but you need to be vastly better than them at the match up to win. Now, if you would instead pick D3 against Snake, and MK against MK, you would find that you are going to start winning the matches that you should win.

If you pick a new character for every 60-40 MU, you're going to get destroyed. You won't ever learn all those characters as well as your opponent knows their mains. Also, CPing MK vs MK is stupid unless you main/second MK, or your main has an almost impossible MU with him. EVERYONE who even dabbles in MK knows that MU.

"A little better" in high levels of play actually is a vast difference in skill level. Being "a little better" than a noob Snake isn't noteworthy, but being "a little better" than Mew2King's Meta Knight would be staggering. Playing with a handicap, i.e. with poor match-ups, is a very important part of serious competition.

Small advantages, while you are right, make a difference, it is not big enough to make up for the fact that you'd be playing a character you are less familiar with if you get a new character for every slightly bad MU.

 

[CaliburChamp]

Never move above ZSS. You will lose. x3

Maybe a few exceptions, but it would still be hard/close/most likely not worth it.

There's a few characters where you can't do this. And yes, never attack Zamus from below, her up-air and up-b will beat anything Kirby has, except for air dodging and stone.

 

[ThreeSided]

There's a few characters where you can't do this. And yes, never attack Zamus from below, her up-air and up-b will beat anything Kirby has, except for air dodging and stone.

The thing is that I'm not talking just about kirby, but about brawl in general. I don't think there's a single character that can face ZSS safely from above. Her Uair beats every Dair in the game, turning a massive amount of her hurtbox into hitbox during the move.

 

[CaliburChamp]

The thing is that I'm not talking just about kirby, but about brawl in general. I don't think there's a single character that can face ZSS safely from above. Her Uair beats every Dair in the game, turning a massive amount of her hurtbox into hitbox during the move.

Yeah your right. I knew that, I just didn't post it. ALL characters can't compete against ZSS when she is below you... just airdodge away.

 

[Pink murder]

Lol, this thread got way off topic.


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[Kewkky]

Uhh... Kirby can be a solo character, he is perfectly capable of it. With the proper experience, you can beat any character, and he does great against the high tiers/top tiers... And by great, I mean Kirby has the tools to allow you to **** and NOT get ***** if player properly.

 

[CaliburChamp]

Uhh... Kirby can be a solo character, he is perfectly capable of it. With the proper experience, you can beat any character, and he does great against the high tiers/top tiers... And by great, I mean Kirby has the tools to allow you to **** and NOT get ***** if player properly.

Then how come a Kirby player hasn't won a tournament in such a long time?

 

[fromundaman]

Because the best *active* Kirby that I know of goes to the same tournies as M2K, Lain, Anther, Judge, Blue Rogue, etc.

 

[aextreme73]

Lol, this thread got way off topic.


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That's what I thought. Someone mentioned using mk or snake in kirbys hardest matchups and other talked about samus being limited as well. I do have to agree with kewkky that Kirby can place high with the proper training. And as many of you hav already said, it's about discussing what others do, learning the matchups, knowing what Kirby does that works and what doesn't, aaaand playing with the proper mindset. Thanks for everyone here on the kuby boards for helping me out. My mk matches are going a lot better now that I'm analyzing my flaws and gameplay tendancies. Also, those who are off topic, i dunno how you got there haha.

 

[Planet Mars]

I've been hesitant to post here because I thought it belonged in the Q&A thread, but I'll give my thoughts.

Sniper is right, Bair against an MK is a must.
As for your question, I guess it would be the same reason why someone would main a Ganondorf, it's their preference. I for one feel comfortable playing Kirby, and would never trade him even for Snake or MK.


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I agree with this point.

People already hate me here for being against the tiers for my overliking to Kirby.

I just realize his potential, and i play him exceptionally well. You just have to study his moveset and realize when and how to attack and apply it into battle. I've never lost to any Meta Knight, given that. Just takes practice. CPUs are good practice as well, but fighting players is a whole different story

 

[Planet Mars]

The thing is that I'm not talking just about kirby, but about brawl in general. I don't think there's a single character that can face ZSS safely from above. Her Uair beats every Dair in the game, turning a massive amount of her hurtbox into hitbox during the move.

Kirby's Down B Rock can sometimes go through Samus's Up A and Up Smash moves. In fact, Kirby is more 'effective' against samus, and her level with the lava (can't believe i forgot its name) His rock can prevent damage from her final smash, and from the lava. The rock is very very effective in certain situations, so mastering its use is key to Kirby

 

[Pink murder]

And yes, never attack Zamus from below, her up-air and up-b will beat anything Kirby has, except for air dodging and stone.

Say... is there any attack in the game -other than final smashes- that beat stone?


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[Conviction]

Say... is there any attack in the game -other than final smashes- that beat stone?


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]
Grabs.


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[Pink murder]

Well obviously xP

Maybe I should have clarified a little more...

Other than Final smashes and grabs.


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[TwentyTwo]

Well obviously xP

Maybe I should have clarified a little more...

Other than Final smashes and grabs.


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Fully charged Snake Fsmash.

 

[Pink murder]

That's better xD.

Are there any others?


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[Kewkky]

I think fully-charged Ike fsmash/DDD fsmash/Lucas usmash can do the trick. Never bothered on checking them out, though, so I might be wrong.

 

[teluoborg]

I think I read somewhere that stone can take something like 40% max before getting automatically cancelled. I guess time decrease this % limit too, but I might be wrong.

 

[Pink murder]

I think fully-charged Ike fsmash/DDD fsmash/Lucas usmash can do the trick. Never bothered on checking them out, though, so I might be wrong.

Ahh, why didn't I think of the infamous Lucas U-smash.

Thanks for the answer

I think I read somewhere that stone can take something like 40% max before getting automatically cancelled. I guess time decrease this % limit too, but I might be wrong.

I always thought it was more around 30%


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[fromundaman]

Well obviously xP

Maybe I should have clarified a little more...

Other than Final smashes and grabs.


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The way it work is after it takes 30% damage, you take the knockback of the last attack (the one that put you over the limit), but not the damage. This makes for hiding in the lava on Norfair and Brinstar effective.

As for single attacks that beat stone: Anything that does over 30%.

As it turns out... fully charged Ganon Fsmash does... and apparently it outranges the infinite stone glitch XD

 

[ThreeSided]

As it turns out... fully charged Ganon Fsmash does... and apparently it outranges the infinite stone glitch XD

Hm. How much damage does warlock punch do? I think they'd like that KB better. =D

 

[fromundaman]

Maybe, but it has like 0 range and disjoinct. Sure won't beat an infinite stone glitch.

 

[SmileyStation]

Ness's PK Thunder at close range does the trick too. But obviously.....dont get hit by it >.>