How to deal with camper/staller

[Colin Steele]

You're saying at the same time Marth isn't countered and is countered. So, there is any solution or he is really countered, not both.

I'm saying if you're having such a hard time against something that Marth isn't great at dealing with, don't main Marth.

 

[SirroMinus1]

Marth Vs Greninja I cant help you. But making it a little easier to deal with people who keep away I might be able to help.
tip 1. learn Lucina You need more options if marth cant cover your current issues with landing lag
2. Gain a early % lead and make your opponent come to you. Run away when they try to approach. punish when they whiff attacks. Your opponent will become desperate

 

[15 [イチゴ]]

I've been putting up with a lot of pansy play myself.

Greninjas, Shieks, Lucarios.

It's all generally pretty frustrating, but not unbeatable. Regardless of lag too!

Shield and dash, roll towards them, jump and move forward, stall in the air using some b move.

That's basically your options for every character unless you're packing some kind of reflect or similar punish.


Oh and patience!


Just because they're trying to scrub you out doesn't mean you can't eventually learn and adapt to them!


I'm having the same issues myself. I mostly play Ness and use PK Thunder in the air as a punish for this kind of play. Mainly because I cannot do any aerials or dash attacks without getting punished, and I often cannot shield, dodge or absorb in time with the lag. Fortunately they also seem to think I can be punished easily while using this move so it tends to get a little more action in the game when I counter punish them.

Hang in there bucko!

 

[Nasreth]

I play Lucina so I can probably give you an idea of what to do. Basically when people camp like this they're going to be standing at the edge of the arena. This is good because it limits their options when you gap close - they have to roll towards you, shield, or try to outrange your aerial when you come in. Fortunately, marth/lucina have amazing range and speed on their forward aerials so the latter is out of the question.

So just short hop their projectiles, fast fall, and work your way towards them. Once you get within about 1 forward smash range is when you do a large hop + fair. If they shield it you use the rest of your jump to DI backwards away from their grab or dash range. If they grab or dash they will miss, and you can run in for a dash attack or grab yourself to punish. If they roll towards you while you're DI-ing backwards, you can hit them with a quick forward air right before you hit the ground as soon as they finish rolling. This will knock them back into the same position and you can repeat this pattern until they are off the ledge.

Hope this helps.

 

[Conda]

Marth Vs Greninja I cant help you. But making it a little easier to deal with people who keep away I might be able to help.
tip 1. learn Lucina You need more options if marth cant cover your current issues with landing lag
2. Gain a early % lead and make your opponent come to you. Run away when they try to approach. punish when they whiff attacks. Your opponent will become desperate

Lucina and Marth have the same landing lag, afaik. http://smashboards.com/threads/all-character-landing-lag-frame-data.371503/#post-17722087

 

[SirroMinus1]

Then scratch out that landing lag part. Lucina should make it a little more harder to be hit.

 

[DarkDream]

Okay I know exactly the issue. Yesterday I was playing against the most roll happy defensive player ever and he knewv what he was doing. He used sheik, zss, MegaMan, the works.

As a Marth player here's what I did for relative success (winning more than losing).

1- Let's break this fantasy right now: you are not going to be applying rush down pressure in the neutral game and win. Nair whiffs on a lot of air to ground situations, fair is just too laggy to use on a standing opponent... overall in neutral you don't want to throw too many things out there. You can advance, shield canceling dashes and dropping shield into dilt or filt, but in general you don't want to risk rushing with a move cause, well, you're gunna end up hit. Instead, you got to get your opponent in a position that favors you. Whiff moves from a distance, encourage them to press buttons outside of their range. This is where you strike.

2- when you land a hit for the sake of everything this is where you enter your offensive. Pretty much all of Marth's moves pop the opponent back into the air, and a lot of them can beat opponents moves due to their range and speed. You gotta be careful not to let an opponent break out for free. Make them fear having to fall back on stage. RAR bair to fair works well from full hop, fair itself is great from full hop since you don't really have to worry about landing lag, his dash attack pops them right back into the air, and more. It's a fun position to be in.

3- rolls. This is one of the most difficult things to deal with as Marth. Rolls are so quick that you can't even get out a reversed f smash on time to hit them before they roll a second time after they roll through you. It's here that you need to use pivot tilts, dilts, grabs, and dancing blade so as to catch them quick enough and set up to pop them back into the air. Eventually you'll see their tendencies after a roll and be able to punish accordingly.

Lastly... It's online. Lag exists. I fought a Marth v Samus and could only hop over projectiles and watch them roll away without being able to do anything. Marth works with precise inputs, that don't really exist online. You just kind of have to deal with it and start inputting things way early. It's typically all you can do with lag.

 

[Sliq]

People who projectile spam on Wifi are scrubs. Wifi matches should entirely be about learning, and there's nothing to be learned from running away and projectile spamming the entire time.

There is a difference between using projectiles to setup traps and influence your opponent and just doing projectiles over and over and running away.

Seriously, no one good is projectile spamming online, and beating bad players who do this isn't hard it's just INCREDIBLY TEDIOUS.

If you get close enough they'll roll spam or spam a different attack. You just need to find the distance that makes them stop spamming projectiles. Then, instead of focusing on getting close enough to hit them, get close enough that it stops their spam.

And if they continue to spam at close range then you should be able to punish because most projectiles have a lot of start up and end lag.

Seriously, I've played like 3 "good" people online so far. There is an insane amount of scrubbery online.

 

[Shack]

Many characters have reflectors or ways to neutralize projectiles. A lot can also be punched with an A attack if you have the timing down. Most spammers will crumble under real pressure and only know to spam and run away. Try using the spammers techniques and see what other people/cpu does to get around it.

 

[Shiliski]

Many characters have reflectors or ways to neutralize projectiles. A lot can also be punched with an A attack if you have the timing down. Most spammers will crumble under real pressure and only know to spam and run away. Try using the spammers techniques and see what other people/cpu does to get around it.

QFT

If you can't find your way past a strategy, try using it yourself and see what others do to stop you.

 

[<π]

People who projectile spam on Wifi are scrubs. Wifi matches should entirely be about learning, and there's nothing to be learned from running away and projectile spamming the entire time.

There is a difference between using projectiles to setup traps and influence your opponent and just doing projectiles over and over and running away.

Seriously, no one good is projectile spamming online, and beating bad players who do this isn't hard it's just INCREDIBLY TEDIOUS.

If you get close enough they'll roll spam or spam a different attack. You just need to find the distance that makes them stop spamming projectiles. Then, instead of focusing on getting close enough to hit them, get close enough that it stops their spam.

And if they continue to spam at close range then you should be able to punish because most projectiles have a lot of start up and end lag.

Seriously, I've played like 3 "good" people online so far. There is an insane amount of scrubbery online.

I always thought a scrub was something else. My core group of friends and I define scrub as people who complain about playstyles they can't over come. The guys who can't beat "that one move." By your definition I'm a scrub too though, lol. I spam projectiles for a lot of reasons, free damage, force approaches I can punish easier, demoralize my opponent. I beat a ton of people online (I'm nearing 90% win rate in for glory now :/) Top players like Reflex and HRNut are beating me pretty consistently though.

 

[Shack]

People who projectile spam on Wifi are scrubs. Wifi matches should entirely be about learning, and there's nothing to be learned from running away and projectile spamming the entire time.

There is a difference between using projectiles to setup traps and influence your opponent and just doing projectiles over and over and running away.

Seriously, no one good is projectile spamming online, and beating bad players who do this isn't hard it's just INCREDIBLY TEDIOUS.

If you get close enough they'll roll spam or spam a different attack. You just need to find the distance that makes them stop spamming projectiles. Then, instead of focusing on getting close enough to hit them, get close enough that it stops their spam.

And if they continue to spam at close range then you should be able to punish because most projectiles have a lot of start up and end lag.

Seriously, I've played like 3 "good" people online so far. There is an insane amount of scrubbery online.

Many games have projectile based characters. Most of Falco's metagame in Melee was based around short hop laser spam. If their strategy is so simple and predictable, yet it continues to beat you, then maybe they are abetter than you.

 

[mangamusicfan]

Only thing i can say is learn from it try to change from play style spammers know most of the time only 1 play style.
If you can break through it you nwill win the game

 

[Tremendo Dude]

I always thought a scrub was something else. My core group of friends and I define scrub as people who complain about playstyles they can't over come. The guys who can't beat "that one move." By your definition I'm a scrub too though, lol. I spam projectiles for a lot of reasons, free damage, force approaches I can punish easier, demoralize my opponent. I beat a ton of people online (I'm nearing 90% win rate in for glory now :/) Top players like Reflex and HRNut are beating me pretty consistently though.

A scrub IS something else, closer to what you described than what you quoted. A scrub takes preconceived notions that the game does not see and applies them to the game. (Which often causes them to complain about playstyles they can't overcome.) Complaining about projectile spammers because "Wifi matches should entirely be about learning" is much closer to scrubbery than the act of projectile spamming, sorry to say.

It's a legitimate strategy, despite how annoying and braindead it might seem. Take it upon yourself to use those wifi matches to learn how to deal with that strategy.

 

[ellord]

I always thought a scrub was something else. My core group of friends and I define scrub as people who complain about playstyles they can't over come. The guys who can't beat "that one move." By your definition I'm a scrub too though, lol. I spam projectiles for a lot of reasons, free damage, force approaches I can punish easier, demoralize my opponent. I beat a ton of people online (I'm nearing 90% win rate in for glory now :/) Top players like Reflex and HRNut are beating me pretty consistently though.

There is a difference between styleplay and not playing. People are scrub if their goal isn't even to win, but to troll and waste your time. I mean they stall for 5 minute (use projectile to make catch harder and stall longer) then loose in sudden dead cuz they are bad. You maybe didn't met such player, but i'm serious, some of them act like that.

Okay I know exactly the issue. Yesterday I was playing against the most roll happy defensive player ever and he knewv what he was doing. He used sheik, zss, MegaMan, the works.

As a Marth player here's what I did for relative success (winning more than losing).

1- Let's break this fantasy right now: you are not going to be applying rush down pressure in the neutral game and win. Nair whiffs on a lot of air to ground situations, fair is just too laggy to use on a standing opponent... overall in neutral you don't want to throw too many things out there. You can advance, shield canceling dashes and dropping shield into dilt or filt, but in general you don't want to risk rushing with a move cause, well, you're gunna end up hit. Instead, you got to get your opponent in a position that favors you. Whiff moves from a distance, encourage them to press buttons outside of their range. This is where you strike.

2- when you land a hit for the sake of everything this is where you enter your offensive. Pretty much all of Marth's moves pop the opponent back into the air, and a lot of them can beat opponents moves due to their range and speed. You gotta be careful not to let an opponent break out for free. Make them fear having to fall back on stage. RAR bair to fair works well from full hop, fair itself is great from full hop since you don't really have to worry about landing lag, his dash attack pops them right back into the air, and more. It's a fun position to be in.

3- rolls. This is one of the most difficult things to deal with as Marth. Rolls are so quick that you can't even get out a reversed f smash on time to hit them before they roll a second time after they roll through you. It's here that you need to use pivot tilts, dilts, grabs, and dancing blade so as to catch them quick enough and set up to pop them back into the air. Eventually you'll see their tendencies after a roll and be able to punish accordingly.

Lastly... It's online. Lag exists. I fought a Marth v Samus and could only hop over projectiles and watch them roll away without being able to do anything. Marth works with precise inputs, that don't really exist online. You just kind of have to deal with it and start inputting things way early. It's typically all you can do with lag.

Finnaly a answer other than try harder and that doesn't make repeat the same things. I think it's still to their advantage but I'll try it out, it may work better than what i actually do.

 

[Shiliski]

If somebody has a strong camping game and can keep me away for an entire match, or even just an entire stock, then yes I have to acknowledge their skill. To do otherwise makes no sense. To do otherwise would be to lie to myself.

On the other hand, if somebody spams long-stale Aura Spheres directly into my Gravitational Pull until I get bored of toying with them, or if they get juggled all over the stage because they don't know how to do anything other than mash B, then no... I do not feel any need to think of that player as good.

I don't feel any need to think of a player who gets juggled from 0 to KO as "good" just because they're not afraid to use certain kinds of tactics, especially if they're using these tactics poorly. And if I'm 2 stocking them with minimal effort then they certainly aren't the better player.

 

[ellord]

If somebody has a strong camping game and can keep me away for an entire match, or even just an entire stock, then yes I have to acknowledge their skill. To do otherwise makes no sense. To do otherwise would be to lie to myself.

On the other hand, if somebody spams long-stale Aura Spheres directly into my Gravitational Pull until I get bored of toying with them, or if they get juggled all over the stage because they don't know how to do anything other than mash B, then no... I do not feel any need to think of that player as good.

I don't feel any need to think of a player who gets juggled from 0 to KO as "good" just because they're not afraid to use certain kinds of tactics, especially if they're using these tactics poorly. And if I'm 2 stocking them with minimal effort then they certainly aren't the better player.

I cannot end under 5 minutes with marth while I easly 2 stock them with fox just cuz they cannot camp him.

 

[Shiliski]

I cannot end under 5 minutes with marth while I easly 2 stock them with fox just cuz they cannot camp him.

I admit I find it easy because RosaLuma can't really be camped either. Maybe I should try to play as Marth for a bit just to see what it's like. That said, if they really don't have any game aside from the projectiles then I'm not really expecting a challenge. I'll see in a bit I guess.

Either way, it may just be that Marth is a weak character this time around. Melee had Mewtwo. Brawl had Hyrule. Maybe it's Marth's turn.

EDIT: Couldn't find any projectile spammers. I will say that Marth is kinda weak though. Honestly I don't run across too many of them. I guess I'm lucky.

 

[GreenFlame]

I haven't met a single good Greninja since I got the game last Friday. I realize that's not a huge sample size but still. I kinda wish I could see what everyone else is talking about.

Or maybe it's just that these Greninja projectile spammers don't have any real game once you get past their spamming.

I don't think you need to worry that your opponent will perfectly read you every time you approach. Some will be able to do that, but many wont.

This is true. I've beaten most Greninjas I've encountered as Little Mac by shielding their spam while moving closer after each Shuriken, then when close enough getting them in the jab because Mac gets Super Armor and Gre's attacks are slower. I know Mac's faster than Marth, but doesn't Marth have that thing where he charges forward a huge distance?

Also OP, it kinda seems like you're just complaining about having to put effort into beating what sounds like a character that semi-counters yours and you're not taking enough risks yourself. Obviously you have to work extra hard to beat a character that has an advantage over yours.
No offense of course...

 

[Shiliski]

I know Mac's faster than Marth, but doesn't Marth have that thing where he charges forward a huge distance?

Unless you're talking about custom moves, it's Ike that has that move, not Marth. Marth just has shield breaker.

I have to say that Marth feels really weak this time around, but I also have to admit that he's not my main or even my secondary. Lucina is my secondary though, and in theory they should be similar... I dunno.

 

[GreenFlame]

Unless you're talking about custom moves, it's Ike that has that move, not Marth. Marth just has shield breaker.

I have to say that Marth feels really weak this time around, but I also have to admit that he's not my main or even my secondary. Lucina is my secondary though, and in theory they should be similar... I dunno.

Oh yeah, it's Ike. Correct me if I'm wrong as I don't know much about these characters and I only think this from playing them a tiny bit in Brawl and watching Lucina, but Marth seems to be in-between Ike and Lucina in terms of gameplay, with Ike being the power extreme and Lucina being the speedier, lighter extreme. Marth is just in the middle, but unfortunately seems to have a bad balance of the two as such and doesn't do as well as the other two characters. So, OP go for one of the extremes - more power or more mobility.

 

[ellord]

Let me correct you greenflame. Marth and Lucina are exactly the same ecepted tipping. In otherword, when Marth hit with the tip of his sword, it's like an critical hit while the rest of his sword is weaker than lucina.

I have no problem with little mac vs greninja. LM and Marth are very different. Marth is deffinitively slow, even a slow game like brawl he was faster, his speed has been nerfed a lot while everyone speed has been increase. Same for his damage even with his low potentiel kill in brawl. Spacing is what remain to marth.

 

[DarkDream]

Oh, not sure if I mentioned these so I'll add.

Use jumping shield breaker as bait. If you double jump and do shield breaker at the height of the second jump, you'll release a fully charged shield breaker just as you hit the ground. There's two advantages to this:

1- when it releases Marth actually slides forward a bit along the ground, giving it a bit of an extended range.

2- it recovers deceptively quickly, allowing you to act shortly after it's released. I can't tell you how many counters I got off of people trying to punish the shield breaker.

Another thing I wanted to elaborate on is the fair. I already mentioned how good the move is in air to air. What I didn't specify was how great it is for gimps. It's the easiest thing in the world for Marth to just waltz off stage and continuously fair people away from the edge. I remember one match vs Mario where I ended up fairing him off the stage, immediately fairing his second jump, landing back on the stage, and as he tried to move into an up b recovery I was able to jump off and fair him 3 times. He was in the magnifying glass when he tried to up b again and I still made it back on stage.

But again in general just keep the opponent in the air and watch for air dodges and counters. Dashing up throw, pokes to keep them from getting too happy, all sorts of fun. As far as countering projectile spammers, the best thing is to just jump, one normal jump, over their projectiles and see how they react. Caught so many spammers with a single normal jump fair it's not even funny.

And lastly I figured out that you can do Nair from air to ground, you just have to do it on the way down from a jump naturally. Fast fall ends the animation before the second cut but the normal fall speed let's them both come out.

 

[Sliq]

Many games have projectile based characters. Most of Falco's metagame in Melee was based around short hop laser spam. If their strategy is so simple and predictable, yet it continues to beat you, then maybe they are abetter than you.

No one is beating me with projectile spam. It's not hard to counter, it's just not FUN to counter in wifi where everything feels like molasses because of input lag.

Seriously, I've wrecked everyone I've played except for one Olimar, one Donkey Kong, and one Kirby/Shiek, and even then the only one that I didn't win more than I lost was the DK.

I'm not sure if you even read my post, because you completely missed the point.

I always thought a scrub was something else. My core group of friends and I define scrub as people who complain about playstyles they can't over come. The guys who can't beat "that one move." By your definition I'm a scrub too though, lol. I spam projectiles for a lot of reasons, free damage, force approaches I can punish easier, demoralize my opponent. I beat a ton of people online (I'm nearing 90% win rate in for glory now :/) Top players like Reflex and HRNut are beating me pretty consistently though.

Most people would agree with your assessment, but I find that scrub is also interchangeable with noob, bad kid, BK Randy, etc. Denotative word meanings fluctuate depending on the person, but generally hovers around the same notion.

 

[Shack]

No one is beating me with projectile spam. It's not hard to counter, it's just not FUN to counter in wifi where everything feels like molasses because of input lag.

Seriously, I've wrecked everyone I've played except for one Olimar, one Donkey Kong, and one Kirby/Shiek, and even then the only one that I didn't win more than I lost was the DK.

I'm not sure if you even read my post, because you completely missed the point.

Yeah I didn't bother reading the rest of your post after hearing you complain so much about how projectile spam = scrub and that wifi should be for learning. There are many top players that spam projectiles in tourneys and online 1v1 is called For Glory, not For Learning... That comes down to the individual's choice.

 

[Vanillascout]

Play Link and just stand there. His shield passively blocks any projectiles that hit it while he's idle/crouched/walking. Fox works very well, too, with his reflector just slapping everything back.

I realized people only enjoy campspamming as long as it actually works even to the slightest extent. But it doesn't work AT ALL vs Link/Fox, so fun's over pretty quickly.

With Link, just make sure to crouch or tap A occasionally to prevent an idle D/C.

 

[ellord]

Play Link and just stand there. His shield passively blocks any projectiles that hit it while he's idle/crouched/walking. Fox works very well, too, with his reflector just slapping everything back.

I realized people only enjoy campspamming as long as it actually works even to the slightest extent. But it doesn't work AT ALL vs Link/Fox, so fun's over pretty quickly.

With Link, just make sure to crouch or tap A occasionally to prevent an idle D/C.

My question was more how to deal with some specific character, if you talk about character like link fox pit, there is no problem because you can't camp them.

 

[Random4811]

Link isn't a problem, because every projectile give him a ending lag and his run and roll speed is slow. So i can attack him at this moment and he can't avoid fight.

So in otherword, u're not giving any solutions, you just say try harder. I don't need encouragement, i need you tell me something i could do other than beeing defensive and stall the whole match. I know i have good perfect shield and if I want to play like a ***** i could just idle and playing defensively as ****. It work against those spammer because they are just not good beside spamming. But I don't want to answer to anti-game with anti-game. This is just boring to do nothing for 5 minutes then dodge all in sudden dead. I don't say I loose, no I still win. My post was for looking an solution other than anti-game.

I play Marth almost exclusively, and I have not had your problem. Yes, it is easy to let projectiles shut you down, and yes, Rosalina is hard to fight against as Marth at first. But, I've disovered that, honestly, its not that hard to deal with a projectile heavy character. When you go for an aerial to break their wall and you know they expect it, you can either go through with it, counter, or dont do it. Its best to mix these up. Otherwise? Roll and shield into them. It works pretty well.

 

[Random4811]

I admit I find it easy because RosaLuma can't really be camped either. Maybe I should try to play as Marth for a bit just to see what it's like. That said, if they really don't have any game aside from the projectiles then I'm not really expecting a challenge. I'll see in a bit I guess.

Either way, it may just be that Marth is a weak character this time around. Melee had Mewtwo. Brawl had Hyrule. Maybe it's Marth's turn.

EDIT: Couldn't find any projectile spammers. I will say that Marth is kinda weak though. Honestly I don't run across too many of them. I guess I'm lucky.

I'd disagree with Marth being weak, but maybe that is just me. If you get those tipper hits you can do some sexy damage early game and then juggle them around- either off the sides or up above. You can even get a 80-100% K.O. from good juggling above the stage, as going between nair, uair and starting dolphin slash right against the opponent can K.O. below 100%, which can be hard this game. I honestly don't see where people are saying Marth has been nerfed. Despite not being able to pull off a Ken combo for the life of me this time around, you can do a sort of similar "combo" (not really a combo, its sort of really spaced out) and get early K.O.'s with his sexy sexy dair spike.

 

[Kidney Thief]

You're saying at the same time Marth isn't countered and is countered. So, there is any solution or he is really countered, not both.

Marth is one of those characters that will need a secondary because he cannot deal with projectile. Thats why I don't main him anymore

 

[Random4811]

Marth is one of those characters that will need a secondary because he cannot deal with projectile. Thats why I don't main him anymore

I dont know, if you can close the gap between you and the projectile spam, then you dont have too much of a problem. And closing the gap isnt that hard, all the projectiles in this game act pretty predictably.

 

[ellord]

I play Marth almost exclusively, and I have not had your problem. Yes, it is easy to let projectiles shut you down, and yes, Rosalina is hard to fight against as Marth at first. But, I've disovered that, honestly, its not that hard to deal with a projectile heavy character. When you go for an aerial to break their wall and you know they expect it, you can either go through with it, counter, or dont do it. Its best to mix these up. Otherwise? Roll and shield into them. It works pretty well.

I have no problem with projectile heavy character as Marth. I never said i had.

 

[ellord]

I dont know, if you can close the gap between you and the projectile spam, then you dont have too much of a problem. And closing the gap isnt that hard, all the projectiles in this game act pretty predictably.

The problem isn't projectile hit. It's projectile that give less approaching options combined with a very fast and defensive character that don't fight but stall the whole match for 5 minutes, then it's all about bomb dodging. This the subject of the thread.

 

[κomıc]

how do you deal with rosalina? seriously that luma is annoying then she has attacks of her own to go with it.

Palutena. Reflect and Auto Reticle her. If they play campy, return the favor. Though, in my personal experience, I play Palutena offensively because I think she plays better than way. She has kinda earned the title of "Anti-Camper". Several people on For Glory tried to play campy but they failed going up against Palutena.

 

[thatoneguy1]

Palutena. Reflect and Auto Reticle her. If they play campy, return the favor. Though, in my personal experience, I play Palutena offensively because I think she plays better than way. She has kinda earned the title of "Anti-Camper". Several people on For Glory tried to play campy but they failed going up against Palutena.

think dark pit would work? im not a huge fan of palutena but they both have reflectors.

 

[warionumbah2]

Finnaly a answer other than try harder and that doesn't make repeat the same things.

That's why i refrain from getting advice on here instead i learn myself the hard way, can't get good answers straight away.

 

[supercoolmayo]

Palutena. Reflect and Auto Reticle her. If they play campy, return the favor. Though, in my personal experience, I play Palutena offensively because I think she plays better than way. She has kinda earned the title of "Anti-Camper". Several people on For Glory tried to play campy but they failed going up against Palutena.

Damn, your right Palutena was a pain to deal with, since I using Link. All the projectiles were pretty much much useless.

 

[κomıc]

think dark pit would work? im not a huge fan of palutena but they both have reflectors.

Depends. Palutena can move within a few milliseconds after the reflect. I'm not a huge fan of Dark Pit as I'd like to be (still need to get used to how different he is from Pit), but that should work. Problem with Dark Pit is that he has very limited KO options.

 

[Random4811]

The problem isn't projectile hit. It's projectile that give less approaching options combined with a very fast and defensive character that don't fight but stall the whole match for 5 minutes, then it's all about bomb dodging. This the subject of the thread.

Then we are talking about essentially the same thing...? Approach options as marth are very wide against any character because he has several ways to come at the opponent. You could even stall yourself by hanging off the ledge and dancing around that area, you'll likely lure your opponent because they fear sudden death

 

[KidRetro]

I use Bowser Jr. frequently online which involves a lot of camping and mecha koopas. From my experience, the best way to deal with those people are using reflectors/counters.

As far as Bowser Jr. goes, don't try to grab the mecha koopa. It is very difficult to pick it up intentionally (I've tried when fighting other BowJrs.) Also, its commonly know, if Villager pockets a mecha koopa, BowJr can't use it again until it is gone.