How to deal with camper/staller

[ellord]

Then we are talking about essentially the same thing...? Approach options as marth are very wide against any character because he has several ways to come at the opponent. You could even stall yourself by hanging off the ledge and dancing around that area, you'll likely lure your opponent because they fear sudden death

Yeah, i could do that with the ledge and just dancing around, but this is not fun.

 

[Random4811]

Yeah, i could do that with the ledge and just dancing around, but this is not fun.

Competitive play isnt always fun. It gets more fun as you get them to higher percentages. Learn how to juggle them, thats your best bet as Marth. Get them in the air, use your counters wisely, and juggle them around. Keep them off the ground where they can projectile spam easily

 

[Roxas215]

This is just For Glory mode for u. As soon as this mode was announced anyone even half versed in the competieve scene knew this was going to be a problem. FD is probably the LEAST used neutral stage in competieve play yet this mode is nothing BUT FD. Lmao #Sakurailogic

 

[ellord]

Competitive play isnt always fun. It gets more fun as you get them to higher percentages. Learn how to juggle them, thats your best bet as Marth. Get them in the air, use your counters wisely, and juggle them around. Keep them off the ground where they can projectile spam easily

This is the reason I don't participate to any external tourney, I have my own community in my region with our own rules. I was just trying the glory mod when it came out and i have to admit some people are really annoying.

 

[Batousai]

This is the reason I don't participate to any external tourney, I have my own community in my region with our own rules. I was just trying the glory mod when it came out and i have to admit some people are really annoying.

Yes, but a mark of a real master is to win, even against annoying does. An annoying player might catch me of guard once or twice, but then I start reading their every move and the difference in our skills becomes apparent. Also, if your community sticks too closely to your rules, and those rules ate too different from the rest of the general competitive community, you're making sure that you could never keep up in any match outside of your community. You're, in effect, limiting yourselves and your growth as players.

Branching out a little bit definitely doesn't hurt anyone. In fact, it helps a player to improve because learning to adapt to your foes is a necessary skill to stay competitive and relevant.

 

[ellord]

Yes, but a mark of a real master is to win, even against annoying does. An annoying player might catch me of guard once or twice, but then I start reading their every move and the difference in our skills becomes apparent. Also, if your community sticks too closely to your rules, and those rules ate too different from the rest of the general competitive community, you're making sure that you could never keep up in any match outside of your community. You're, in effect, limiting yourselves and your growth as players.

Branching out a little bit definitely doesn't hurt anyone. In fact, it helps a player to improve because learning to adapt to your foes is a necessary skill to stay competitive and relevant.

I can match outside my community, but I do not because I don't enjoy the game which is more important to me to win. My thread was more about : how to deal in still having fun against camer/staller. And the type of player i was talking cannot be readed cuz he just doesn't play.

Can we close this thread plz?

 

[DavemanCozy]

I think it depends on your character.

I picked up Fox because he's essentially the anti-bullcrap character of this game. His lasers actually break through Duck Hunt's frisbee and stop his exploding can from travelling (if you shoot it, it just keeps bouncing back at him. It's hilarious). His reflector also destroys any of Link's projectiles, Pac-Man's bonus fruit, Greninja's shiruken, Sheik's needle spam, etc.

I don't want to say that you should play Fox, but I only know how to deal with campers with Fox. I think it's best to ask this question on the board for the character you play.

 

[Batousai]

I can match outside my community, but I do not because I don't enjoy the game which is more important to me to win. My thread was more about : how to deal in still having fun against camer/staller. And the type of player i was talking cannot be readed cuz he just doesn't play.

Can we close this thread plz?

Right. For me, beating a cheap player is satisfying and quite fun. The opponent doesn't have to play by the same rules or code as me for me to have fun. No one can really tell you how to fight campers/stallers and still have fun. It's a matter of your perspective. If you let those players get you so irritated that it kills the fun for you, well, that's solely on you.

I get irritated, sure, but I use that irritation as motivation to make come back, crush the cheap player, and start a winning streak against them. Most cheap players rage-quit after they realize they don't have a chance.

In any case, it's entirely up to you whether you have fun or let those players ruin it for you.

 

[otter]

Right. For me, beating a cheap player is satisfying and quite fun. The opponent doesn't have to play by the same rules or code as me for me to have fun. No one can really tell you how to fight campers/stallers and still have fun. It's a matter of your perspective. If you let those players get you so irritated that it kills the fun for you, well, that's solely on you.

I get irritated, sure, but I use that irritation as motivation to make come back, crush the cheap player, and start a winning streak against them. Most cheap players rage-quit after they realize they don't have a chance.

In any case, it's entirely up to you whether you have fun or let those players ruin it for you.

I agree. Whats strange to me is that the same demographic of people that wanted a scrubby engine also get mad when people use it.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

That's For Glory mode for you. Playing exclusively on flat stages invalidates a lot of characters who don't have projectiles, especially if you're playing against a campy opponent. I'm a DK main, a character with great punishes but weak approach options, and FD is the worst possible stage for him.

So are you insinuating that you can go your entire tournament career without ending up on Final Destination? You have to learn to cope with your disadvantages, getting counter-picked to Final Destination shouldn't mean an auto-win for your opponent. There's really no excuse...learn it or just keep losing...

 

[ellord]

There is counterpick and 49 characters. I think everybody can deal with FD for few matchs, but it become boring to play the same map so we like to try something else.

Can someone please close this thread.

 

[_Magus_]

This has prob already been said, but you mentioned landing lag. Are you using FAir, by chance? If so, stop. Now. Fair is nowhere near as good as it was in brawl. Use nair instead, and rely on your d tilts and ground game more.

With regard to campers, marth is more well equipped than most to rush down and pressure them. Running/walking at them and powershielding any projectiles is gonna force them to react. Do this a few times, and watch what they do. Try to pick out one or two things that they do consistently, and punish those. Once you've done that, repeat the process. Before you know it, you've picked apart their entire playstyle

 

[Random4811]

I can match outside my community, but I do not because I don't enjoy the game which is more important to me to win. My thread was more about : how to deal in still having fun against camer/staller. And the type of player i was talking cannot be readed cuz he just doesn't play.

Can we close this thread plz?

So, your problem is that you dont like to win, you'd rather play however you want to play, and not have to go hard and competitive against your opponent? Then why'd you try for glory in the first place?

 

[Kmon]

I think the issue is that extreme camping just harms the variety concerning picked caracters. It may be possible for some really good players to counter a projectile spammer with characters that aren't really equipped for that (and it takes its time ofc) but most players will just scrap said "handicapped" chars. Even ITT someone said "then don't pick marth" and that's the nail in the coffin for variety imo. Sure, there obviously is no true balance and the (premade) "tier lists" also suggest that but it's sad that the fast, projectile-capable chars (ninjafrog and shiek) rank really high in the eyes of the community - obviously because they are able beat some chracters just by their projectile spam. The average player then feels pressured to pick a high tier char or one who counters projectile spam
and THEN the real game can begin. It would be a shme if rock paper scissors picking is required.

 

[otter]

I think the issue is that extreme camping just harms the variety concerning picked caracters. It may be possible for some really good players to counter a projectile spammer with characters that aren't really equipped for that (and it takes its time ofc) but most players will just scrap said "handicapped" chars. Even ITT someone said "then don't pick marth" and that's the nail in the coffin for variety imo. Sure, there obviously is no true balance and the (premade) "tier lists" also suggest that but it's sad that the fast, projectile-capable chars (ninjafrog and shiek) rank really high in the eyes of the community - obviously because they are able beat some chracters just by their projectile spam. The average player then feels pressured to pick a high tier char or one who counters projectile spam
and THEN the real game can begin. It would be a shme if rock paper scissors picking is required.

That's just the price of having no movement options. It's not realistic to say "please don't camp were gonna have to go by the honor system here" the game should be keeping that in check.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I think the issue is that extreme camping just harms the variety concerning picked caracters. It may be possible for some really good players to counter a projectile spammer with characters that aren't really equipped for that (and it takes its time ofc) but most players will just scrap said "handicapped" chars. Even ITT someone said "then don't pick marth" and that's the nail in the coffin for variety imo. Sure, there obviously is no true balance and the (premade) "tier lists" also suggest that but it's sad that the fast, projectile-capable chars (ninjafrog and shiek) rank really high in the eyes of the community - obviously because they are able beat some chracters just by their projectile spam. The average player then feels pressured to pick a high tier char or one who counters projectile spam
and THEN the real game can begin. It would be a shme if rock paper scissors picking is required.

I dunno about this. 2 posts before yours, Magus made a very good post describing how to deal with campers using Marth. Just goes to show that even these characters have options.

In the case of Sheik and Greninja, they're not just ranked highly because they can choose to camp, they also have very solid offensive games +movement options. They can choose to go on the defensive or offensive: it's their versatility that makes them more attractive fighters.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

I can match outside my community, but I do not because I don't enjoy the game which is more important to me to win. My thread was more about : how to deal in still having fun against camer/staller. And the type of player i was talking cannot be readed cuz he just doesn't play.

Can we close this thread plz?

Did you walk into the For Glory door when you meant to walk into the For Fun door?

 

[DarkDeity15]

I have a problem in the matchup greninja vs marth. No i can't land a nair, dair or shield breaker or counter because he just avoid the fight, they doesn't take any risk. They will just attack me if i land something 1st then use the ending lag to attack me. Sometime they shield then grab but only when they know i cannot grab or cannot charge shield breaker. greninja run and roll faster. Rolling doesn't work, the rolling is too long for the spacing between every projectile and they may just unsych them, this is easy because my roll is slow. I just place sometime a pivot grab when they are stuck in the side of the match, but i have to avoid 100 projectile and not miss my spacing, the award/risk isn't fair. The match just end in a sudden dead everytime! I know i can play fox but i can't alway guess what my opponent is going.

Please stop making me repeat. Read the 1st post. If the character has a long ending lag after each projectile i can deal with it, same if he is slower than marth and can't avoid the fight. So it mean this doesn't apply on link, samus, robin...

I wouldn't disregard Link so easily. His bombs are pretty lethal and he can set up walls dispite only being able to have 2 bombs out at once. They come out quickly as well and Link can get confirms off of them, not to mention he can toss cancel a ton of his aerials, including airdodge AND his arrows. He can get confirms with his boomerang as well, though of course it has some start-up lag. Cool-down is very low though. He isn't slow in the air either. His F-air, N-air and B-air are extremely fast and have little landing lag, so Link can do more than just camp.

 

[Batousai]

The problem that I'm seeing often is that people aren't willing to explore characters and find their own style and options. They just get frustrated and say this game is to limiting, when it's got a large amount of variety, good character balance, and good skill balance.

Inevitably, some backslide to Melee, which is their choice. Some don't stop there, and feel the need to badmouth Sm4sh and try to turn people away from it, or start internet fights with their opinions. Sm4sh has potential and just needs for people to play it. The meta will form it due time. Be inventive, find ways to get around play patterns, don't try to play Sm4sh the same way Melee is played. The two are different games.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Melee plays will be struggling if they keep trying to play this like it was melee.

They need to learn there are situations where walking needs to be used over just dashing or running since there is actual commitment to it now, we're as walking you lose speed but you retain some options. This is very good with helping to deal with camping.

 

[Batousai]

They'll never accept that. As shown by the vocal members of the Melee community, they would rather complain about the changes to the game mechanics, something that happens to every single fighting game, than even try to show skill/versatility and adapt. The loudest members of the "Melee only" club have shown that they refuse to leave their 2 generation old comfort zone, instead holding onto their old CRTs and playing with mostly the same people at every tourney, while all the new blood plays the current game. This is proven by the fact that none of the big names of Smash's past were in the Nintendo Smash 3ds Nationals, opting to battend the Big House 4 instead of the National qualifiers.

Melee players say that it's as strong as ever, but they don't realize that the dregs of their community turn newcomers away with their elitist attitude and constant need to put down new players. Also, the centralized meta that requires the use of the unintended exploits like wavedashing to even keep up creates an extremely high entry wall for any who aren't already part of the community.

Well, maybe the Sm4sh competitive scene will be better off with less Melee players. After all, there are many Smashers who have lives and responsibilities outside of Smash that demand more time than we would be able to put into the walled off Melee competitive scene. Give us busy people, and those who were never joined the Melee party, a competitive scene that we can still enjoy without having to deal with the worst that the Melee scene has to offer.

It seems Sm4sh was made for the open-minded. Maybe that means the competitive scene will be more mature. I certainly hope so.

Pardon me for my rant, but I'm sure there are many others who think the same way. The vocal jerks brought this kind of reaction and bad name upon the entire Melee community.

 

[otter]

They'll never accept that. As shown by the vocal members of the Melee community, they would rather complain about the changes to the game mechanics, something that happens to every single fighting game, than even try to show skill/versatility and adapt. The loudest members of the "Melee only" club have shown that they refuse to leave their 2 generation old comfort zone, instead holding onto their old CRTs and playing with mostly the same people at every tourney, while all the new blood plays the current game. This is proven by the fact that none of the big names of Smash's past were in the Nintendo Smash 3ds Nationals, opting to battend the Big House 4 instead of the National qualifiers.

I see where youre coming from. but the big house was one of the best tourmaments in years and the Nintendo tournament was a joke. You are just as biased as the people you are complaining about. This is coming from someone who plays many fighting games outside of smash. It's pretty unfair to ask people to travel to play with bad rules against bad players or else their just a melee elitist 5ever.

 

[guedes the brawler]

People who projectile spam on Wifi are scrubs. Wifi matches should entirely be about learning, and there's nothing to be learned from running away and projectile spamming the entire time.

There is a difference between using projectiles to setup traps and influence your opponent and just doing projectiles over and over and running away.

Seriously, no one good is projectile spamming online, and beating bad players who do this isn't hard it's just INCREDIBLY TEDIOUS.

If you get close enough they'll roll spam or spam a different attack. You just need to find the distance that makes them stop spamming projectiles. Then, instead of focusing on getting close enough to hit them, get close enough that it stops their spam.

And if they continue to spam at close range then you should be able to punish because most projectiles have a lot of start up and end lag.

Seriously, I've played like 3 "good" people online so far. There is an insane amount of scrubbery online.

camping is a very legitimate tactic, and what you are complaining about is EXACTLY the biggest contribuition For glory gives to players: teaching how to deal with camping

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

They'll never accept that. As shown by the vocal members of the Melee community, they would rather complain about the changes to the game mechanics, something that happens to every single fighting game, than even try to show skill/versatility and adapt. The loudest members of the "Melee only" club have shown that they refuse to leave their 2 generation old comfort zone, instead holding onto their old CRTs and playing with mostly the same people at every tourney, while all the new blood plays the current game. This is proven by the fact that none of the big names of Smash's past were in the Nintendo Smash 3ds Nationals, opting to battend the Big House 4 instead of the National qualifiers.

Melee players say that it's as strong as ever, but they don't realize that the dregs of their community turn newcomers away with their elitist attitude and constant need to put down new players. Also, the centralized meta that requires the use of the unintended exploits like wavedashing to even keep up creates an extremely high entry wall for any who aren't already part of the community.

Well, maybe the Sm4sh competitive scene will be better off with less Melee players. After all, there are many Smashers who have lives and responsibilities outside of Smash that demand more time than we would be able to put into the walled off Melee competitive scene. Give us busy people, and those who were never joined the Melee party, a competitive scene that we can still enjoy without having to deal with the worst that the Melee scene has to offer.

It seems Sm4sh was made for the open-minded. Maybe that means the competitive scene will be more mature. I certainly hope so.

Pardon me for my rant, but I'm sure there are many others who think the same way. The vocal jerks brought this kind of reaction and bad name upon the entire Melee community.

First off, mad props for calling wavedashing an exploit instead of a glitch. At least it proves you're thinking clearly.

Sadly, this is a gross misrepresentation of the Melee community. Melee players do not oppose change, but they do oppose bad change. When Brawl came out, every Melee player on the planet rushed out and bought it. Everyone was ready to move on. Melee tournaments were on life support for a while. The problem is that Brawl took away movement options and replaced them with terrible things like ledge-stalling. We don't need wavedashing, but we do need ways to move fluidly and inflict mind games upon the opponent. The great thing about Melee is the intricate mix of reads and reactions. Brawl is all reads. Sm4sh brought back some reactions, but it is still quite read-heavy.

I watched both the 3DS tournament and The Big House 4. Sorry, but TBH4 was 400x more interesting. Nintendo is putting in a strong effort to join forces with the competitive community, but only half the company is on board: the game developers still work from their ivory towers and seek to undermine fast, competitive play.

It is fine if you like Smash 4 more than Melee. It is fine that Melee players keep doing what they are doing. Who are you to come along and indicate that these people are somehow defective? What obligation do we have to embrace the new game just because it is new?

Melee lives on because of the high skill ceiling. You are fooling yourself if you think a low skill ceiling is good for the community. Sure, it brings in an influx of newbies for a period, but your top end players start hopping to other games entirely (competitive DOTA/LoL or fighting games on other consoles). Melee is not a walled garden. Several of the top players right now are Brawl natives. (On that note, do you see Brawl tournaments going on? Yeah, me neither...)

So please, spare us your "Sm4sh was made for the open-minded" nonsense. You cannot say that while complaining that the game "requires the use of the unintended exploits like wavedashing". So the dumbed down game is the more "open-minded" candidate? Please... Project M has completely replaced Brawl at events. So, it is in Sm4sh's best interest to be more like Melee.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Most people would agree with your assessment, but I find that scrub is also interchangeable with noob, bad kid, BK Randy, etc. Denotative word meanings fluctuate depending on the person, but generally hovers around the same notion.

These days, many players subscribe to this definition: http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win

 

[Batousai]

I see where youre coming from. but the big house was one of the best tourmaments in years and the Nintendo tournament was a joke. You are just as biased as the people you are complaining about. This is coming from someone who plays many fighting games outside of smash. It's pretty unfair to ask people to travel to play with bad rules against bad players or else their just a melee elitist 5ever.

Like I said, it's not all Melee players. Only some of them are douchebags, but those are the loudest and most vocal, and they represent the entire Melee community in a negative way. Those people create the bias that people feel against the Melee community, as a whole.

If it weren't for those people, and if the meta itself were a little more newcomer friendly, I and many others would be all-in for the Melee competitive scene. That isn't the case and Sm4sh fills the gap that non-Melee players have had to deal with for years. So I will play Sm4sh competitively and only play Melee for fun. Smash is a game and ,above all else, it should be fun. Unfortunately, there are aspects of the Melee community, not all of them, that can take the fun out of it. Even some of the best Melee players have lost the sense of fun in the past.

In my logical analysis, there were only 2 aspects of the ruleset at the Nintendo Nationals that were bad: stages with fatal hazards and custom equipment. Custom specials are fine because they allow for players to tailor characters to fit themselves, allowing their unique personalities to shine through and at the same time expanding the meta and encouraging variety. This would allow for a diverse meta to form, one without centralization, and could lend itself to the longevity of the competitive scene.

 

[Batousai]

First off, mad props for calling wavedashing an exploit instead of a glitch. At least it proves you're thinking clearly.

Sadly, this is a gross misrepresentation of the Melee community. Melee players do not oppose change, but they do oppose bad change. When Brawl came out, every Melee player on the planet rushed out and bought it. Everyone was ready to move on. Melee tournaments were on life support for a while. The problem is that Brawl took away movement options and replaced them with terrible things like ledge-stalling. We don't need wavedashing, but we do need ways to move fluidly and inflict mind games upon the opponent. The great thing about Melee is the intricate mix of reads and reactions. Brawl is all reads. Sm4sh brought back some reactions, but it is still quite read-heavy.

I watched both the 3DS tournament and The Big House 4. Sorry, but TBH4 was 400x more interesting. Nintendo is putting in a strong effort to join forces with the competitive community, but only half the company is on board: the game developers still work from their ivory towers and seek to undermine fast, competitive play.

It is fine if you like Smash 4 more than Melee. It is fine that Melee players keep doing what they are doing. Who are you to come along and indicate that these people are somehow defective? What obligation do we have to embrace the new game just because it is new?

Melee lives on because of the high skill ceiling. You are fooling yourself if you think a low skill ceiling is good for the community. Sure, it brings in an influx of newbies for a period, but your top end players start hopping to other games entirely (competitive DOTA/LoL or fighting games on other consoles). Melee is not a walled garden. Several of the top players right now are Brawl natives. (On that note, do you see Brawl tournaments going on? Yeah, me neither...)

So please, spare us your "Sm4sh was made for the open-minded" nonsense. You cannot say that while complaining that the game "requires the use of the unintended exploits like wavedashing". So the dumbed down game is the more "open-minded" candidate? Please... Project M has completely replaced Brawl at events. So, it is in Sm4sh's best interest to be more like Melee.

Thank you for not writing me off as a noob who doesn't know anything, which obviously I am not. I can't tell you how many times Melee fans have tried to put me down and label me as a casual in their prejudiced way. No wonder I have a bad taste in my mouth regarding the competitive Melee community, eh? They fuel the bias against Melee and discourage newcomers.

I must point out, what really IS "bad change"? Whether a change is good or bad is a matter of individual opinion. What is bad for one may be good for another. No one has the right to decide, for an entire community, what is bad change. Yet so many treat popular OPINION as FACT.

Just like how you thought the 3ds tourney was boring, I often find watching competitive Melee to be boring. Everyone seems to dance around in the same fashion and the primary source of kills are ledge hogging forced falls. It doesn't give the impression of variety and the kills seem cheap and not really earned. There's very little SMASHing the opponent across the screen done and the matches overall feel stale and repetitive. I can watch a game one week and two weeks later it feels like I'm watching the same match with the same two people. It's not just my opinion, there are others who feel the same way. Plenty others.I may be wrong about the meta, and maybe it's because I'm not a competitive Melee smasher, but that's how it looks from the outside. That brings another problem to light. If the game seems boring and repetitive to outsiders, they will have no desire to join in. No new blood means less variety, and creates the air of an "in club".

Feelings about Nintendo aside, Sm4sh is a great game and far better than Brawl. Just as Melee players have ever right to continue playing the game they love, Sm4sh players should be able to do the same without grief from members of the Melee community. It's a simple, irrefutable fact that just about every Sm4sh video and article that allows comments is plagued by players who throw " Melee is better. This game is ****" around and all-around just troll for no justifiable reason. Another poor representation of the Melee community and dividing influence in the Smash fan base.

The problem with the competitive scene is not that it has too high of a skill ceiling, but a little too high of an entry wall. When Melee released, I was about 11 years old. At that time I enjoyed playing for fun, and played the heck out of the original, and I didn't even think of playing competitively. By the time I became aware of the competitive scene, it was much like what it is now, but I never had the time to sink into the game in order to stay competitive. Too much life in the way. People in similar situations to mine would like to have a fighting chance in the scene, but are deprived of that.

You seem knowledgeable about the Melee scene, so I'll defer to you. What changes do you think could be made to the competitive scene, or the members themselves, to make it more newcomer friendly?

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Thank you for not writing me off as a noob who doesn't know anything, which obviously I am not. I can't tell you how many times Melee fans have tried to put me down and label me as a casual in their prejudiced way. No wonder I have a bad taste in my mouth regarding the competitive Melee community, eh? They fuel the bias against Melee and discourage newcomers.

Heh. Filthy Casual War 1 broke out when the flood of new Brawl players came in and tried to uproot the foundations laid by the Melee community. They had the age old argument that "honor matters" and that "skill" doesn't involve using "cheap" tricks. It had nothing to do with Smash at all, but that conflict certainly cemented the sour relationship you see today.

I must point out, what really IS "bad change"? Whether a change is good or bad is a matter of individual opinion. What is bad for one may be good for another. No one has the right to decide, for an entire community, what is bad change. Yet so many treat popular OPINION as FACT.

Be very careful when throwing the word "opinion" around. Sure, an opinion is not always fact, but too many people conflate the term "opinion" with "preference". No one on earth can dispute my preference of vanilla over chocolate ice cream, but I'm sure a few people would take issue with my "expert opinion" that the earth is flat. Opinions very much can be wrong, and it bothers me when people tried to hide behind their "opinions". A good opinion is supported by facts and evidence.

With that said, yes, it could be argued that the changes are "good" to other people, but it shouldn't be a stretch to see why the Melee community is offended by the changes. The Melee engine allows you to feel very powerful and agile. It is very exciting to "see" mind games playing out. To see one player genuinely outwit the other is awesome, the speed of the game just pushes the adrenaline high. I am being honest here: as an avid Melee player, I was not expecting Melee 2.0 from Brawl. I'm sure others were, but I wasn't. However, the game did not satisfy any of those conditions: the feeling of being able to move around fluidly and concoct devastating combos. It felt more like playing Chess.

Just like how you thought the 3ds tourney was boring, I often find watching competitive Melee to be boring. Everyone seems to dance around in the same fashion and the primary source of kills are ledge hogging forced falls. It doesn't give the impression of variety and the kills seem cheap and not really earned. There's very little SMASHing the opponent across the screen done and the matches overall feel stale and repetitive. I can watch a game one week and two weeks later it feels like I'm watching the same match with the same two people. It's not just my opinion, there are others who feel the same way. Plenty others.I may be wrong about the meta, and maybe it's because I'm not a competitive Melee smasher, but that's how it looks from the outside. That brings another problem to light. If the game seems boring and repetitive to outsiders, they will have no desire to join in. No new blood means less variety, and creates the air of an "in club".

Are you watching the same matches I've been watching? Everyone complains about Fox hogging the stage, and Fox primarily kills off the top. XD

I don't know what it's like to be a smasher who arrived after Brawl's release. I can imagine it's pretty jarring to step into the middle of this minefield that sits between the communities. I think Melee matches are the best thing ever because I can see all the technical stuff and mind games happening. Samus used to be good. T_T

Feelings about Nintendo aside, Sm4sh is a great game and far better than Brawl. Just as Melee players have ever right to continue playing the game they love, Sm4sh players should be able to do the same without grief from members of the Melee community. It's a simple, irrefutable fact that just about every Sm4sh video and article that allows comments is plagued by players who throw " Melee is better. This game is ****" around and all-around just troll for no justifiable reason. Another poor representation of the Melee community and dividing influence in the Smash fan base.

Yes. Bad behavior is bad. I wish people didn't act that way, but the world is full of idiots. I just hope people don't read too deeply into that. I have my own doubts about how many of those comments are real (trolls who know how tense relations are), and the ones that are real just don't deserve respect in the first place.

The problem with the competitive scene is not that it has too high of a skill ceiling, but a little too high of an entry wall. When Melee released, I was about 11 years old. At that time I enjoyed playing for fun, and played the heck out of the original, and I didn't even think of playing competitively. By the time I became aware of the competitive scene, it was much like what it is now, but I never had the time to sink into the game in order to stay competitive. Too much life in the way. People in similar situations to mine would like to have a fighting chance in the scene, but are deprived of that.

OK. I don't know how popular my take is on this, but I strongly disagree about Melee having too high of an entry wall. I'm not implying that Melee is easy. I know how technically demanding it is compared to the other games. However, everyone acts like Brawl/Sm4sh has this wonderfully low entry wall to where everyone is instantly competitive. That is just not true. When people come to their first tournament, they get wrecked. There is a huge list of things one has to know to become even a sub-average competitor. I've tried to teach people about ledge-hopping and how useful it is, and they mess it up and/or SD as a result. Short-hopping is key for fast aerials. Edge guarding is scary and hard at first. These people stay noncompetitive for roughly as long as they would have if they were playing Melee. Wavedashing is not the most important technique (unless playing Luigi). Teching is vital and still in the game.

Melee is a harder game, but it has more depth as a result.

You seem knowledgeable about the Melee scene, so I'll defer to you. What changes do you think could be made to the competitive scene, or the members themselves, to make it more newcomer friendly?

I'm probably not the best person to ask because we do have people join the Melee scene where I live. We're nice people.

 

[Batousai]

The "filthy casual" term borders on serious prejudice. I think it's immature to create such a stereotype with the sole purpose of directing hate towards them.

Whether it be opinion or preference, no one should have to deal with hate over their personal choices.

I've seen, and taken part in, mind games in Brawl and Sm4sh. It's just slower and more methodical than in Melee. No bouncing around, more reading and manipulating with fake-outs and the timing of punishes. High level Sm4sh is still very skill based, with plenty of reaction required, just in different ways than Melee. I'd like to see one of the loud jerks who reside within the Melee community take me on in Sm4sh and even keep the stocks even.

I went to my first public tourney at the local launch tourney for Sm4sh 3ds and I was the one who did the wrecking. Did it with Zelda and Marth. Won the whole thing, got the medal and web link to prove it too.

I wish more people would realize that Sm4sh is not "Smash for dummies". It just requires a different skill set, and different isn't bad. After all, the human brain needs change every once in a while. Too much of the same thing, even Melee, is actually bad for mental health.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

but only half the company is on board: the game developers still work from their ivory towers and seek to undermine fast, competitive play.

Which Smash 4 has pretty much worked on improving this, and they have.

Melee lives on because of the high skill ceiling. You are fooling yourself if you think a low skill ceiling is good for the community. Sure, it brings in an influx of newbies for a period, but your top end players start hopping to other games entirely (competitive DOTA/LoL or fighting games on other consoles). Melee is not a walled garden. Several of the top players right now are Brawl natives. (On that note, do you see Brawl tournaments going on? Yeah, me neither...)

I think you mean skill floor here, not skill ceiling for parts of this. Melee does indeed have a high skill floor, or at least higher than any of the other smash games. For better or worse.

So, it is in Sm4sh's best interest to be more like Melee.

In what way?

L-canceling? replaced by auto canceling a 100% improvement on a terrible mechanic.
Wavedashing? Eh...yeah wish was still around but can't work with the new airdodge.
Dash Dashing? It's in Smash 4, in a way.
Combos? They exist even more so in smash 4 than in Brawl.
Crouch Canceling? Not really here and good since seeing people get punished for landing a hit always feels awful.

In what way does Smash 4 need to be more like Melee with it's more diverse cast, custom movesets, larger cast, potentially larger stage list on the WiiU version and it's fresh. Why would it go backwards?

 

[otter]

the term "skill floor" just doesn't compute to me. Melee was the greatest casual game ever when it came out. There are plenty of beginners at every tournament to train with each other.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

So many words and letters!

The "filthy casual" term borders on serious prejudice. I think it's immature to create such a stereotype with the sole purpose of directing hate towards them.

Whether it be opinion or preference, no one should have to deal with hate over their personal choices.

I've seen, and taken part in, mind games in Brawl and Sm4sh. It's just slower and more methodical than in Melee. No bouncing around, more reading and manipulating with fake-outs and the timing of punishes. High level Sm4sh is still very skill based, with plenty of reaction required, just in different ways than Melee. I'd like to see one of the loud jerks who reside within the Melee community take me on in Sm4sh and even keep the stocks even.

I went to my first public tourney at the local launch tourney for Sm4sh 3ds and I was the one who did the wrecking. Did it with Zelda and Marth. Won the whole thing, got the medal and web link to prove it too.

I wish more people would realize that Sm4sh is not "Smash for dummies". It just requires a different skill set, and different isn't bad. After all, the human brain needs change every once in a while. Too much of the same thing, even Melee, is actually bad for mental health.

While I'm sure each side has its own story of how the events played out, my observation was that casual players marched into the forum and started telling competitive players that they were playing the game wrong: wrong for banning stages, wrong for banning items, wrong for using cheap tactics, wrong for "taking the game seriously". These people are "filthy casuals". Regular casual players just did not care. They went off and did their own thing. They participated in the single player mode forums and just wanted to enjoy the game as it was.

Sm4sh requiring a different skill set is fine. However, it is not fair to flag all Melee players as "stuck in their ways". The game didn't change a little bit; it changed a LOT. It requires drastically different skills. So, while there are those who can comfortably bounce between games, there are those who prefer to play the game that they fell in love with.

Which Smash 4 has pretty much worked on improving this, and they have.

I think you mean skill floor here, not skill ceiling for parts of this. Melee does indeed have a high skill floor, or at least higher than any of the other smash games. For better or worse.

In what way?

L-canceling? replaced by auto canceling a 100% improvement on a terrible mechanic.
Wavedashing? Eh...yeah wish was still around but can't work with the new airdodge.
Dash Dashing? It's in Smash 4, in a way.
Combos? They exist even more so in smash 4 than in Brawl.
Crouch Canceling? Not really here and good since seeing people get punished for landing a hit always feels awful.

In what way does Smash 4 need to be more like Melee with it's more diverse cast, custom movesets, larger cast, potentially larger stage list on the WiiU version and it's fresh. Why would it go backwards?

My point was that people act like Sm4sh has this wonderfully low smash floor, which just isn't true. I certainly agree that Melee is more demanding at the outset, but the difference is not as drastic as people make it out to be. Being good at smash takes a lot of work regardless. Melee functioned just fine as both a casual game and a competitive one.

I just want smash to be more "like Melee" in that it promotes offensive play. I don't really care how it is achieved. Sm4sh, so far, has done an excellent job in this regard. In fact, I'm often frustrated at how easily my shield gives out on me, but I remind myself that this is a good thing. The best defense is a good offense. I'm always looking for ways to use attacks to neutralize an incoming attacks. If I had to pick one thing from Melee, I want L-canceling to come back. I don't care whether it's auto, but the current options in Sm4sh are inadequate. While the game is much better about favoring offense, there are still too many situations that just shielding and reacting.

Coming back to the topic of this thread, camping is really powerful. It's not unbeatable... but the game still favors defense.

 

[Batousai]

See, this is how these kinds of conversations should go. Equal exchanges without resorting to insults. If more people could think for themselves and express themselves maturely, like you guys are doing, there would be a lot less hate amongst Smashers.

I agree with practically everything said. Sm4sh requires a completely different skill set from Melee. The two games are so different that they really shouldn't be compared as to which is better. That's comparing oranges to grapefruits. Similar but very different.

There are offensive options already, with more to be found as time goes on. Using custom specials, some pretty offensive build can be made with almost any character. That variety is why I think custom specials, not equipment, should be encouraged in the competitive scene.

Also, L-canceling is actually in Sm4sh, just to a lesser extent than Melee. I know because I can do it with Marth and Lucina.

 

[G-Sword]

just got done fighting a campy falco player with fox. this guy would just sit in the corner and wait for me to move. i beat him 6 to 1. its all about reading the game and knowing when to hit the game and wait for him to react when you approach. either you attack, grab or do a fake approach where he thinks your gonna make a move and reacts. i do feel like i could have punished this punk alot more if this wasnt on the 3ds and i wasnt getting some lag.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So many words and letters!



While I'm sure each side has its own story of how the events played out, my observation was that casual players marched into the forum and started telling competitive players that they were playing the game wrong: wrong for banning stages, wrong for banning items, wrong for using cheap tactics, wrong for "taking the game seriously". These people are "filthy casuals". Regular casual players just did not care. They went off and did their own thing. They participated in the single player mode forums and just wanted to enjoy the game as it was.

Sm4sh requiring a different skill set is fine. However, it is not fair to flag all Melee players as "stuck in their ways". The game didn't change a little bit; it changed a LOT. It requires drastically different skills. So, while there are those who can comfortably bounce between games, there are those who prefer to play the game that they fell in love with.



My point was that people act like Sm4sh has this wonderfully low smash floor, which just isn't true. I certainly agree that Melee is more demanding at the outset, but the difference is not as drastic as people make it out to be. Being good at smash takes a lot of work regardless. Melee functioned just fine as both a casual game and a competitive one.

I just want smash to be more "like Melee" in that it promotes offensive play. I don't really care how it is achieved. Sm4sh, so far, has done an excellent job in this regard. In fact, I'm often frustrated at how easily my shield gives out on me, but I remind myself that this is a good thing. The best defense is a good offense. I'm always looking for ways to use attacks to neutralize an incoming attacks. If I had to pick one thing from Melee, I want L-canceling to come back. I don't care whether it's auto, but the current options in Sm4sh are inadequate. While the game is much better about favoring offense, there are still too many situations that just shielding and reacting.

Coming back to the topic of this thread, camping is really powerful. It's not unbeatable... but the game still favors defense.

Yeah I agree with a lot of this though to be frank I still see this game being an overall improvement.

 

[DarkDeity15]

So many words and letters!



While I'm sure each side has its own story of how the events played out, my observation was that casual players marched into the forum and started telling competitive players that they were playing the game wrong: wrong for banning stages, wrong for banning items, wrong for using cheap tactics, wrong for "taking the game seriously". These people are "filthy casuals". Regular casual players just did not care. They went off and did their own thing. They participated in the single player mode forums and just wanted to enjoy the game as it was.

Sm4sh requiring a different skill set is fine. However, it is not fair to flag all Melee players as "stuck in their ways". The game didn't change a little bit; it changed a LOT. It requires drastically different skills. So, while there are those who can comfortably bounce between games, there are those who prefer to play the game that they fell in love with.



My point was that people act like Sm4sh has this wonderfully low smash floor, which just isn't true. I certainly agree that Melee is more demanding at the outset, but the difference is not as drastic as people make it out to be. Being good at smash takes a lot of work regardless. Melee functioned just fine as both a casual game and a competitive one.

I just want smash to be more "like Melee" in that it promotes offensive play. I don't really care how it is achieved. Sm4sh, so far, has done an excellent job in this regard. In fact, I'm often frustrated at how easily my shield gives out on me, but I remind myself that this is a good thing. The best defense is a good offense. I'm always looking for ways to use attacks to neutralize an incoming attacks. If I had to pick one thing from Melee, I want L-canceling to come back. I don't care whether it's auto, but the current options in Sm4sh are inadequate. While the game is much better about favoring offense, there are still too many situations that just shielding and reacting.

Coming back to the topic of this thread, camping is really powerful. It's not unbeatable... but the game still favors defense.

Then there's Melee players who even hate Project M. Why? Because they hate that things are different, even though it's basically Melee 2.0. They hate re-learning MUs and aren't used to any characters being good other than the top tiers from Melee. All they care about is winning and making profit. So yeah. What makes us think they'd even touch Sm4sh? "Stuck in their old ways" is the right way to put it imo (of course I'm not putting this against all Melee players, just the majority of them).

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

Then there's Melee players who even hate Project M. Why? Because they hate that things are different, even though it's basically Melee 2.0. They hate re-learning MUs and aren't used to any characters being good other than the top tiers from Melee. So yeah. What makes us think they'd even touch Sm4sh? "Stuck in their old ways" is the right way to put it imo.

There are plenty of reasons to dislike PM. I've never been a big fan of it myself.

So, lemme get this straight. On one hand, we just got to a point where we agreed that Melee and Sm4sh require totally different skill sets, which means they are clearly going to appeal to different people who have different tastes in fighting games. Now, we're back to saying that Melee players are stuck in their ways because they didn't adhere to your demands that they embrace a new game? Is it not enough that someone just likes Melee? For crying out loud, get over yourself. You don't like Melee and/or its community. WE GET IT. No one has any obligation whatsoever to play (much less like) new games in the series.

 

[DarkDeity15]

There are plenty of reasons to dislike PM. I've never been a big fan of it myself.

So, lemme get this straight. On one hand, we just got to a point where we agreed that Melee and Sm4sh require totally different skill sets, which means they are clearly going to appeal to different people who have different tastes in fighting games. Now, we're back to saying that Melee players are stuck in their ways because they didn't adhere to your demands that they embrace a new game? Is it not enough that someone just likes Melee? For crying out loud, get over yourself. You don't like Melee and/or its community. WE GET IT. No one has any obligation whatsoever to play (much less like) new games in the series.

Thing is though, I've actually seen them say this. I'm not against the Melee community at all. Just a lot of individuals involved with it. Demands? Nah man. Just suggestions. And I honestly don't see why they don't like PM other than what I said earlier and maybe that a whole lot of the cast is super strong. However they're working on improving the game as we speak. What reason do they really have towards not liking PM other than "it's not Melee"? I just don't understand how you guys could keep playing the same game for well over a decade and not want anything new.

The game has gone stale imo. Every new Melee vid I see on youtube I simply ignore completely because I find them boring to watch. I always know what to expect now. You know what? I think that just might be it. You guys are avoiding the newer games simply because you're afraid to take a risk. They're against being beginners again. Why can't you guys just go about the newer games like you did with Melee in its early days? Normally I'd expect that it would be fun to learn how to play Smash again. I guess that just isn't the case with you guys.

 

[Tagxy]

Buzzsaw Im not sure why youre equating casuals with Brawl or Smash 4, it started with the melee community and those people were around well before Brawl. Ive been lurking since 2005 and I was one of those people who thought c-stick was cheap and remember the polls where a good 1/3rd of people thought so too as well as many other casual vs competitive threads, many more than what exist now. I didnt start changing my mind till I saw a video of Anther and that convinced me to join smashboards.

Late Edit: Alright, I just realized how uninformed and presumptuous Batousai's post was, but you gotta avoid the bait. Your response makes just as many uninformed presumptions about Brawl and smash 4. Anyways this started to go way off topic not even sure why people brought up melee.

@ ellord Punishing campers requires good shielding and traps. Aerials are a bit of a commitment, Id suggest relying on your grounded options more. Powershield to grabs, or perhaps powershield to dtilt up close. The nice thing about moves like dtilt is it moves quick enough to hit on one side then punish on the other should they try to roll. Grounded options by far should be your preferred choice though.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

There are plenty of reasons to dislike PM. I've never been a big fan of it myself.

So, lemme get this straight. On one hand, we just got to a point where we agreed that Melee and Sm4sh require totally different skill sets, which means they are clearly going to appeal to different people who have different tastes in fighting games. Now, we're back to saying that Melee players are stuck in their ways because they didn't adhere to your demands that they embrace a new game? Is it not enough that someone just likes Melee? For crying out loud, get over yourself. You don't like Melee and/or its community. WE GET IT. No one has any obligation whatsoever to play (much less like) new games in the series.

I'd never say i hated Melee or it's community, unless it is being obniouxious on the hate side. I love Melee, I just wanna experiance Smash 4 more right now.

I'm ditto with us on PM though, I respect it and like it more than 64, but that's about it. Just a hack I can't really dig into too much outside of, it's kinda smash so I don't "hate" it. Heh.

Either way I've gotten a lot if what you think on the campy issue, I agree on a lot of fronts, in terms of step forwards I think Smash 4 has taken a lot more steps in the right direction.