ChozenOne
Smash Champion
Shorthopped Fairs, and Grab Trixies... what am i fuxing w/ missing??
/puts on Tiara
/puts on Tiara
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How the **** do you make Marth Technical??
- Thread starter ChozenOne
- Start date
- Status
FrostByte
Smash Lord
Fair, fair, fair, fair, (opportunity for Fsmash here) fair anyway, failed attempt at ken combo, SD/get smashed off stage.
K.C. Cloud
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2006
- Messages
- 750
Can you make marth Technical?
Can make him really fast I'm sure... but technical?
I confused... so confused.
Can make him really fast I'm sure... but technical?
I confused... so confused.
UMBC Super Smasher
Smash Lord
Make marth technical by giving Chuck Norris a sword.
Is this thread serious?
Is this thread serious?
ChozenOne
Smash Champion
So far i've heard... Marth is techical when he is..
So Marth is not technical.
Anyone??
So Marth is not technical.
Anyone??
takieddine
Smash Master
Marths should be technical only when they need it.
IMO a Marth should focus on his movement (DD w/ JC grabs & Tech Chasing)more than anything to go along with this grab mindgrainez.
You can get technical, but thats usually bad for a marth, since people tend to get hasty.
Patience.
IMO a Marth should focus on his movement (DD w/ JC grabs & Tech Chasing)more than anything to go along with this grab mindgrainez.
You can get technical, but thats usually bad for a marth, since people tend to get hasty.
Patience.
purekorea
Smash Journeyman
Pivoting is really good with marth as well. I guess it's a technical skill.
ChozenOne
Smash Champion
So moving with marth is good, but not when it's technical??
DuKe™
Smash Journeyman
nair, u air, sword dance,, that double fair to f smash, ????
Okkeeyyy
Technical Marth.. hmmm
You can't really be able to do infinite waveshines with Marth or SWDs so don't expect aything solid like that. IMO a technical Marth is really fast using wavelands, DDs, spacing, just being quick in general, all mixed with quick wds/turns here and there. See if your opponent can catch up with you...
My Marth is pretty technical.. but being smart is better. That what I'm working on
Off Topic: Chozen is using Marth??
Technical Marth.. hmmm
You can't really be able to do infinite waveshines with Marth or SWDs so don't expect aything solid like that. IMO a technical Marth is really fast using wavelands, DDs, spacing, just being quick in general, all mixed with quick wds/turns here and there. See if your opponent can catch up with you...
My Marth is pretty technical.. but being smart is better. That what I'm working on
Off Topic: Chozen is using Marth??
ChaosKnight
Smash Master
how bou tthis i'll show you a technical marth AT UMBC no joke hahah
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Learn the IASA frames of the Fair and the D-tilt. Learn SHDF and other variations of Sh Fair>other aerial. Marth doesn't really have any amazing advance techniques in at his disposal. All you've got is the SHDF and the rest are techniques that any character can do. SHFFL, Wavedash, Pivot, JC'd grabs, and techning is as far as you go technically
ChozenOne
Smash Champion
So Marth can be technical if you use sword dance but it's better to be smart so Einstein would have been fuxing w/ Ken for best??
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
The sword dance doesn't take much technical skill so I won't count that. You can get by with just tech skill, but once you have that tech skill you need start working on mindgames. Learn to predict your opponent and trick them into bad situations.
Sweet, 100th post! And a new group!
Sweet, 100th post! And a new group!
ChozenOne
Smash Champion
So you being technical doesn't mean you sword dance, nor does it mean moving.. but mindgames your opponent into bad situations... so really the goal of Marth is to not move and make your opponent SD??
thebluedeath1000
Smash Champion
lol if you could not move and make your foes sucide, you would become a god!
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
I think the only real thing technical about Marth is how important his spacing is. If you can manage to tip your aerials, smashes when you want to, that's basically a technical Marth.
Eternal phoenix Fire
Smash Hero
Technical doesn't really have an actual definition,for it is character specific.
But I really don't know what it means to be technical with Marth..and he's my main.
But...If it helps you win,why should it matter?
But I really don't know what it means to be technical with Marth..and he's my main.
But...If it helps you win,why should it matter?
choknater
Smash Obsessed
the greatest results of good tech skill with marth = deadly accuracy. he's not hard to use but setting up ken combos and stuff takes a lot of good DI, mindgammez, and spacing. therefore tech skill with marth should result in good timing and accuracy.
if played with perfect technical ability, it would definitely add to his movements and combo as a whole. but FLASHY is not the way to go.
if played with perfect technical ability, it would definitely add to his movements and combo as a whole. but FLASHY is not the way to go.
Me thinks:
Marth needs to shuffle fairs/arials, WD for spacing, dash dance for spacing, pivots for spacing, knowledge of grab->combos/%'s, knowledge of chain throws/%'s.
Basically, marth isn't fox/falco speed, so he's limited in the technical sense that involves finger speed and whatever... Plus half of being "technical" is shining (for serious, what character is described as technical that can't shine? and for that matter, what player? :S).
Seems like Marth has limited physical techskill (fingerspeed -> shuffle) and a fair amount of mind techskill (%'s & combos)... whereas the spacies have quite a bit more physical techskill (anything having to do with shine, lasers, plus shuffling) and relatively less mental techskill (seems like a lot of thier stuff is applicable over large %'s).
Just shuffle, space, combo... Much like jiggs. Except faster. Plus longer range. No rest though
.
So...
->Shuffle->combos
->Space->Tipper'd-Smash/Tilts
->%'s knowledge->combos/chainthrow
'course, all this is just my observations: I don't really play marth (only for fun in FFA's :S).
Marth needs to shuffle fairs/arials, WD for spacing, dash dance for spacing, pivots for spacing, knowledge of grab->combos/%'s, knowledge of chain throws/%'s.
Basically, marth isn't fox/falco speed, so he's limited in the technical sense that involves finger speed and whatever... Plus half of being "technical" is shining (for serious, what character is described as technical that can't shine? and for that matter, what player? :S).
Seems like Marth has limited physical techskill (fingerspeed -> shuffle) and a fair amount of mind techskill (%'s & combos)... whereas the spacies have quite a bit more physical techskill (anything having to do with shine, lasers, plus shuffling) and relatively less mental techskill (seems like a lot of thier stuff is applicable over large %'s).
Just shuffle, space, combo... Much like jiggs. Except faster. Plus longer range. No rest though
.So...
->Shuffle->combos
->Space->Tipper'd-Smash/Tilts
->%'s knowledge->combos/chainthrow
'course, all this is just my observations: I don't really play marth (only for fun in FFA's :S).
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
I know your talking about a technical marth, but honestly Marth is not about being technical. Chozenone your obviously much better than me at this game, but I do know Marth very well. Marth is all about being smart. Mew2King told me himself he switched from a Maining fox to Marth because Mew2King knows he's smart, and Marth needs to be played smart, not technical. I can't answer your question, but if your serious about maining marth i would reccomend not being technical. But I can't answer your question about making Marth technical.
TheLegend
Smash Ace
So pretty much you're all saying that Marth isn't technical, but he is technical when he uses basic technical skills of every character.. but then Marth is not a technical character so you shouldn't try to be technical... instead be smart by tricking opponents to SD?? maybe i should move to the midwest, and learn to camp.
JesiahTEG
Smash Master
I'm just saying Marth is more of a smart character, whereas fox is more of a tech character. there's no drillshining or waveshining or shine spiking or SHL'ing with Marth. With Marth, every attack needs to be carefully placed, and matchups taken into consideration more.
And as for the midwest camping part...NO JOHNS!! lol
And as for the midwest camping part...NO JOHNS!! lol
TheLegend
Smash Ace
Normally camping is not technical, but playing a campy marth is technical??
wtf is marth fuxing with@?!
wtf is marth fuxing with@?!
This is how I see it:
Marth really isn't that technical a character, especially when compared to some others. He doesn't have the same combos that say, Fox, Falco, or Ice Climbers have in regards to a set of different and alternating moves that are essential for competitive gameplay (Drillshine, pillaring, grab combos, etc.) Basically, Marth has stand alone moves that can link together in any order (utilt, uair, fair, forward b) and this means that the only really essential technical ability he needs is to be able to do them back-to-back as quickly as possible; basically shffl's and timing. However, since it is beneficial for every character to do this well, Marth is no longer considered very technical (I don't consider spacing technical, although it does require skill).
When I watch a match of Ken or KM or Azen, I don't think "Wow, how did they do that", I am just amazed at how fast they can alternate and execute all of the moves that every Marth player knows (and of course they do them at the right time).
So, in sum, Marth isn't nearly as technical as some; his moves are too simple to be made into things overly complex for the decent smasher.
Marth really isn't that technical a character, especially when compared to some others. He doesn't have the same combos that say, Fox, Falco, or Ice Climbers have in regards to a set of different and alternating moves that are essential for competitive gameplay (Drillshine, pillaring, grab combos, etc.) Basically, Marth has stand alone moves that can link together in any order (utilt, uair, fair, forward b) and this means that the only really essential technical ability he needs is to be able to do them back-to-back as quickly as possible; basically shffl's and timing. However, since it is beneficial for every character to do this well, Marth is no longer considered very technical (I don't consider spacing technical, although it does require skill).
When I watch a match of Ken or KM or Azen, I don't think "Wow, how did they do that", I am just amazed at how fast they can alternate and execute all of the moves that every Marth player knows (and of course they do them at the right time).
So, in sum, Marth isn't nearly as technical as some; his moves are too simple to be made into things overly complex for the decent smasher.
Aesir
Smash Master
you're only technical when you tech chase LOLZ
TheLegend
Smash Ace
So Marth has no "preset combos" like IC's, Fox, and Falco but his moves can link together and form combos that are not preset?? and technical marth "pros" are actually not technical, or amazing and just fuxing w/ good!? but then he is also simple, but linking moves can be complex??
I don't even think the Marth players know how they can make their character technical...
I don't even think the Marth players know how they can make their character technical...
3GOD
Smash Ace
Pretty much just master powershielding (which anyone can do) and pivoting (again anyone can do this).
Since Marth has to deal with Falco often, powershielding is really nice to have. Pivoting into fsmash is amazing if mastered. Fthrow->follow DI->pivoted fsmash tipper would be beastly.
But I don't play marth really, so my view is probably wrong which I'm sure someone will demonstrate beautifully.
Since Marth has to deal with Falco often, powershielding is really nice to have. Pivoting into fsmash is amazing if mastered. Fthrow->follow DI->pivoted fsmash tipper would be beastly.
But I don't play marth really, so my view is probably wrong which I'm sure someone will demonstrate beautifully.
TheLegend
Smash Ace
So apparently even if your marth is "technical" it is useless anyway.
OK, Marth double fair-ing to an utilt is not a preset combo like IC's numerous chain grab. When you watch a good Marth match and Marth gets in a fair, you don't know (with any great certainty) what his next combo will be. However, when you look at a Falco who gets a shine in (especially at low percentages), your pretty sure he's going to pillar or if IC's grab some one you know they are going to chain them. Marth hits and, depending on the DI, does whatever move he can. Falco will almost always pillar. IC will always rack up damage before lettign go. Those are set combos.
And it really feels like you just want to insult people instead of thinking about what they have to say. Of course great players are extremely technical (I don't know how you got that out of what I wrote), but Marth is never the greatest device to show it, especially compared to other characters.
I also said that all of his moves are very simple and his combos don't require great complexity: utilt-->uair/biar/utilt-->fair/uair/itilt is much, much less technically complex than Fox's dair-->down b --> dair--> down b-->wavedash-->upsmash, especially in terms of the speed in which they must be done to be performed correctly.
TheLegend
Smash Ace
So pretty much inconclusion Marth is not technical.
Not technical in respects to most other characters.
TheLegend
Smash Ace
So you're admitting to Marth requiring less raw skill than other characters
I admit that the amount of technical skill needed to be good with Marth (mind games aside) is less than most other characters.
Aesir
Smash Master
Marth requires loads and loads amount of experience to play well with.
Yes he needs tons of experience as well as mind games and skill, but the amount of time and actual work needed on his speed and fluency in the game does not take as long as most other characters.
technomancer
Smash Champion
- Joined
- May 17, 2006
- Messages
- 2,053
Technical Marth is knowing your combos and platform trixies. The best marths are a combination of Technical and Gay, known as "Testicle" style Marths. A Testicle Marth knows how to pull some really good combos but also knows how to effectively teabag edgeguard with dtilts, grab you out of everything including MewTwo's teleport, and combo everything into a tipper.
metroid1117
Smash Master
To begin with, I know that this thread was meant to be some-what of a joke. However, I have had a firm belief that Marth is a technical character (not too technical, but technical nevertheless) and have been wanting to express my reasons why.
Let's see... let's define technicality. In my opinion, a "technical" character is a character where you have to practice things constantly or a character that requires button work. For example, Fox is a technical character because players have to work on (1) shffl'ing, (2) waveshining, (3) chainthrowing, (4) shinespiking, and (5) USmashing out of shield. Comboing is also another factor in defining a technical character; however, some characters are simply easier to combo with (ex. Sheik vs. G&W), so as to how much of a factor comboing is in terms of technicality, it's how much variety the combos have. Since Fox's combos have so much variety to them (shine -> w/e, UTilt -> w/e, etc.), he has more combos to learn than G&W, who's combos basically revolve around throws and tilts. Spacing is something that all characters MUST learn, but again, it's another thing that depends with who you are using. For example, Fox must learn his spacing so that he can avoid attacks and then rush in with his close-range attacks during his opponent's whiff time. On the other hand, G&W must learn how to space his disjointed hitboxes so that they won't. In this sense, G&W is more technical than Fox when it comes to spacing (hard to imagine, right?).
Marth has a surprising amount of things to work on.
1) Chainthrowing
a) FThrow's ending in tipped FSmash
b) UThrow + UTilt on Fox and Falco ending in tipped FSmash (hard to perfect)
2) Short-hop double FAir (not too hard)
3) Short-hop FAir -> UAir (harder, but nothing a couple of practice sessions won't conquer)
4) Shffl'ing UAir (I'll get into that more later)
5) Applying crouch-cancel countering with Dolphin Slash (up+B) or Dolphin Slash out of shield for killing or edgeguarding (not hard with standard Dophin Slash, but Reverse Dolphin Slash will take some practice)
6) Edgehop spiking (probably in between short-hop FAir -> UAir and chainthrowing in terms of difficulty because you can control how low or high you start your spike)
7) FAir -> waveland (a pain in the butt to perfect, but can be used as a mindgame)
When it comes to raw button pressing, Marth really doesn't have anything that really sticks out, such as Fox's waveshining, IC's chainthrowing, or Yoshi's edge-canceled eggs. However, this is where I believe Marth is a hugely technical character.
Marth's sword makes him unique in the sense that it makes him the character where spacing is the most important thing. Going for the ever-rewarding tipped FSmash will give you one of three possibilities:
1) You miss the sweetspot but you still hit your opponent, providing still-decent knockback
2) You hit with the tip and your opponent either loses a stock or is set up for an edgeguard (which is practically a stock if you can edgehop spike or BAir properly)
3) You whiff and get punished a combo or finisher
This is Marth's bane and what all Marth users, no matter how skilled, must apply into their game. Spacing. Going back to my definition of technicality, there are three areas: skills that your character can do, comboing, and spacing. In Marth's case, his spacing defines what combos he can do. How many times have people messed up a Ken Combo simply by missing that tipped FAir, and vice versa at higher damages? How many times have people ruined a stock-ending chainthrow with a mis-judged UTilt that knocks your opponent away from you? Learning exactly where each sweetspot for all of Marth's moves and being able to aim for either one is, in my opinion, extremely irritating.
Take UAir, for example, Marth's most underrated aerial (however, I do acknowledge that it is probably his worst aerial). UAir makes a good combo starter on all characters and a great juggling attack for fastfallers - if you sweetspot it. Sweetspotting UAir gives it more knockback and stun time, which means that whether you sweetspot it or not will determine what combos you can use as well as who you can combo. For example, CF is extremely easy to juggle with UTilts and sweetspotted UAirs if you get him trapped above you. If you hit the sweetspot every time, you can either follow up with another shffl'd UAir if they don't DI away from you, hit a tipped FSmash if they don't DI enough, and if they still try to DI even further than that, you can chase with FAirs, which branch off into other possibilities based on whether you sweetspot or not. On another hand, against slightly lighter characters, non-sweetspotted UAirs will benefit you more; in Red Steel, a Marth (Kill) Video by smashgod (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy62_Cfb73c), there is a scene against a Ganondorf (who was using the tag Rock). Starting after the UThrow at 1:28, the Marth user follows up with the following: sweetspotted shffl'd UAir -> sweetspotted (?) shffl'd UAir -> NON-sweetspotted shffl'd UAir -> NON-sweetspotted shffl'd FAir -> NON-sweetspotted shffl'd UAir -> NON-sweetspotted shflf'd UAir. If it weren't for the non-sweetspotted UAir's and FAirs, the Ganondorf probably would've been able to escape the combo. Then again, it's a COMBO VIDEO, which doesn't necessarily guarantee that it is a true combo with good DI, but it leads to combos nevertheless.
Another underrated attack that needs to be almost perfectly spaced is aerial Dancing Blade (side+B). Aerial Dancing Blade can be followed up with DAir depending on the character; for example, if you mess up the sweetspotted FAir when trying to do the Ken Combo and they get knocked horizontally, you can chase them with an aerial Dancing Blade, then jump and DAir. You do, however, need to space this move extremely well; the success of this attack depends on your spacing and your opponent's DI. It can also lead to UAir as well, as Kizzu shows in [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYAv6IEagcI] starting at 00:24: UThrow -> short-hop Dancing Blade -> UAir -> full-hop non-sweetspotted NAir -> non-sweetspotted FAir -> DAir, or in scenes of his combo videos, Dancing Blade -> UAir -> UTilt/Grab
Not only is spacing essential for comboing, but against a shielding opponent, it's a necessity to control your spacing so that even if your hit does get shielded, you're far enough that you can't get shieldgrabbed. A Marth with perfect spacing stops short-range characters such as Pikachu, G&W, and others dead in their tracks, not allowing them to get that necessary grab in. This is the most standard use for spacing that all characters must master, but not all characters can have the potential of not getting shield-grabbed if they master their spacing properly.
In short: Marth isn't a character doesn't require a lot of button skills, but is a character where spacing is essential and varies his combo game more than any other character, making him, in my opinion, technical.
Let's see... let's define technicality. In my opinion, a "technical" character is a character where you have to practice things constantly or a character that requires button work. For example, Fox is a technical character because players have to work on (1) shffl'ing, (2) waveshining, (3) chainthrowing, (4) shinespiking, and (5) USmashing out of shield. Comboing is also another factor in defining a technical character; however, some characters are simply easier to combo with (ex. Sheik vs. G&W), so as to how much of a factor comboing is in terms of technicality, it's how much variety the combos have. Since Fox's combos have so much variety to them (shine -> w/e, UTilt -> w/e, etc.), he has more combos to learn than G&W, who's combos basically revolve around throws and tilts. Spacing is something that all characters MUST learn, but again, it's another thing that depends with who you are using. For example, Fox must learn his spacing so that he can avoid attacks and then rush in with his close-range attacks during his opponent's whiff time. On the other hand, G&W must learn how to space his disjointed hitboxes so that they won't. In this sense, G&W is more technical than Fox when it comes to spacing (hard to imagine, right?).
Marth has a surprising amount of things to work on.
1) Chainthrowing
a) FThrow's ending in tipped FSmash
b) UThrow + UTilt on Fox and Falco ending in tipped FSmash (hard to perfect)
2) Short-hop double FAir (not too hard)
3) Short-hop FAir -> UAir (harder, but nothing a couple of practice sessions won't conquer)
4) Shffl'ing UAir (I'll get into that more later)
5) Applying crouch-cancel countering with Dolphin Slash (up+B) or Dolphin Slash out of shield for killing or edgeguarding (not hard with standard Dophin Slash, but Reverse Dolphin Slash will take some practice)
6) Edgehop spiking (probably in between short-hop FAir -> UAir and chainthrowing in terms of difficulty because you can control how low or high you start your spike)
7) FAir -> waveland (a pain in the butt to perfect, but can be used as a mindgame)
When it comes to raw button pressing, Marth really doesn't have anything that really sticks out, such as Fox's waveshining, IC's chainthrowing, or Yoshi's edge-canceled eggs. However, this is where I believe Marth is a hugely technical character.
Marth's sword makes him unique in the sense that it makes him the character where spacing is the most important thing. Going for the ever-rewarding tipped FSmash will give you one of three possibilities:
1) You miss the sweetspot but you still hit your opponent, providing still-decent knockback
2) You hit with the tip and your opponent either loses a stock or is set up for an edgeguard (which is practically a stock if you can edgehop spike or BAir properly)
3) You whiff and get punished a combo or finisher
This is Marth's bane and what all Marth users, no matter how skilled, must apply into their game. Spacing. Going back to my definition of technicality, there are three areas: skills that your character can do, comboing, and spacing. In Marth's case, his spacing defines what combos he can do. How many times have people messed up a Ken Combo simply by missing that tipped FAir, and vice versa at higher damages? How many times have people ruined a stock-ending chainthrow with a mis-judged UTilt that knocks your opponent away from you? Learning exactly where each sweetspot for all of Marth's moves and being able to aim for either one is, in my opinion, extremely irritating.
Take UAir, for example, Marth's most underrated aerial (however, I do acknowledge that it is probably his worst aerial). UAir makes a good combo starter on all characters and a great juggling attack for fastfallers - if you sweetspot it. Sweetspotting UAir gives it more knockback and stun time, which means that whether you sweetspot it or not will determine what combos you can use as well as who you can combo. For example, CF is extremely easy to juggle with UTilts and sweetspotted UAirs if you get him trapped above you. If you hit the sweetspot every time, you can either follow up with another shffl'd UAir if they don't DI away from you, hit a tipped FSmash if they don't DI enough, and if they still try to DI even further than that, you can chase with FAirs, which branch off into other possibilities based on whether you sweetspot or not. On another hand, against slightly lighter characters, non-sweetspotted UAirs will benefit you more; in Red Steel, a Marth (Kill) Video by smashgod (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jy62_Cfb73c), there is a scene against a Ganondorf (who was using the tag Rock). Starting after the UThrow at 1:28, the Marth user follows up with the following: sweetspotted shffl'd UAir -> sweetspotted (?) shffl'd UAir -> NON-sweetspotted shffl'd UAir -> NON-sweetspotted shffl'd FAir -> NON-sweetspotted shffl'd UAir -> NON-sweetspotted shflf'd UAir. If it weren't for the non-sweetspotted UAir's and FAirs, the Ganondorf probably would've been able to escape the combo. Then again, it's a COMBO VIDEO, which doesn't necessarily guarantee that it is a true combo with good DI, but it leads to combos nevertheless.
Another underrated attack that needs to be almost perfectly spaced is aerial Dancing Blade (side+B). Aerial Dancing Blade can be followed up with DAir depending on the character; for example, if you mess up the sweetspotted FAir when trying to do the Ken Combo and they get knocked horizontally, you can chase them with an aerial Dancing Blade, then jump and DAir. You do, however, need to space this move extremely well; the success of this attack depends on your spacing and your opponent's DI. It can also lead to UAir as well, as Kizzu shows in [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYAv6IEagcI] starting at 00:24: UThrow -> short-hop Dancing Blade -> UAir -> full-hop non-sweetspotted NAir -> non-sweetspotted FAir -> DAir, or in scenes of his combo videos, Dancing Blade -> UAir -> UTilt/Grab
Not only is spacing essential for comboing, but against a shielding opponent, it's a necessity to control your spacing so that even if your hit does get shielded, you're far enough that you can't get shieldgrabbed. A Marth with perfect spacing stops short-range characters such as Pikachu, G&W, and others dead in their tracks, not allowing them to get that necessary grab in. This is the most standard use for spacing that all characters must master, but not all characters can have the potential of not getting shield-grabbed if they master their spacing properly.
In short: Marth isn't a character doesn't require a lot of button skills, but is a character where spacing is essential and varies his combo game more than any other character, making him, in my opinion, technical.
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