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How soon is "too soon" for Brawl?
- Thread starter Stevo
- Start date
- Status
Actually, if the game engine went ahead and automatically punished a player for trying to follow up, then yes, I'd argue that it's doing things for the player. However, "cancelable" kind of implies that the player being attacked is being given an option, not being automatically safe from harm. The fact that a player can (and typically will) air-dodge or aerial right out of tumble can potentially reset the situation, but it doesn't outright do so with no input whatsoever, so in this case I believe that it is in fact the player's choice that resets the situation and gets him out of the combo.
rawrimamonster
Smash Ace
I've never ever been shy about saying brawl sucks, it ****s on everything we worked towards as a community. It was Sakurai's slap to the face of the competitive community, done for the casual controller throwing babies that MOSTLY (not all) make up brawls fanbase. These are the same kids that talked **** on smashboards, went to a melee tournament thinking they were hot stuff and got their lunch money stolen then went home and wrote angsty hate posts on gamefaqs. 
But that isn't even the main reason I truly hate the game, it's because of the image it promotes about smash to the rest of the fighting game community. With most fighting games, as we all know each new iteration is just rebalanced, some combos changed, some nerfs happen and a few new characters and its practically a brand new game to them. The reason I say this is because this carries over into their assumptions about smash, since smash (as said by the competitive community) is a fighter, most people in the FGC will simply assume that brawl is the "latest" or "face of smash" like SFIV is for the SF community, or MVC3 is for the MVC community.
The big problem with this is, unlike traditional fighting games, each new iteration of smash is HUGELY different from the last so much so that the entire flow of the game is different. People see brawl and they go "OH **** SMASH IS A CASUAL BABY PARTY GAME, DISMISS NOT COOL SWEEP UNDER THE RUG **** TIER SERIES"...that PISSES ME OFF!
Of course there are those that will look at the moves and say "HEY THAT LOOKS THE SAME NOTHINGS CHANGED" well from a casual perspective I could easily say that since ken and ryu can hadouken, shoryuken, and tatsumaki senpukyaku its always the same as well, the difference is that smash has more levels of gameplay and cannot and should not be analyzed like that...neither series should.
THAT **** is why brawl pisses me off, **** that game. It shoulda been abandoned for the good of the community the second the metagame staled, when is the last time that game has shown steady progression? Prove me wrong.
But that isn't even the main reason I truly hate the game, it's because of the image it promotes about smash to the rest of the fighting game community. With most fighting games, as we all know each new iteration is just rebalanced, some combos changed, some nerfs happen and a few new characters and its practically a brand new game to them. The reason I say this is because this carries over into their assumptions about smash, since smash (as said by the competitive community) is a fighter, most people in the FGC will simply assume that brawl is the "latest" or "face of smash" like SFIV is for the SF community, or MVC3 is for the MVC community.
The big problem with this is, unlike traditional fighting games, each new iteration of smash is HUGELY different from the last so much so that the entire flow of the game is different. People see brawl and they go "OH **** SMASH IS A CASUAL BABY PARTY GAME, DISMISS NOT COOL SWEEP UNDER THE RUG **** TIER SERIES"...that PISSES ME OFF!
Of course there are those that will look at the moves and say "HEY THAT LOOKS THE SAME NOTHINGS CHANGED" well from a casual perspective I could easily say that since ken and ryu can hadouken, shoryuken, and tatsumaki senpukyaku its always the same as well, the difference is that smash has more levels of gameplay and cannot and should not be analyzed like that...neither series should.
THAT **** is why brawl pisses me off, **** that game. It shoulda been abandoned for the good of the community the second the metagame staled, when is the last time that game has shown steady progression? Prove me wrong.
Inb4 they put this ******** concept in smash4 lol. I guess your right about the player choosing not to be comboed any more, but you got to admit that's dumb that they just decide that they don't find losing to be fun and just jump out of the combo. Oh wait you DID say it's a problem that brawl has.....my bad
Wish more brawl players voiced their opinion.
Gea
Smash Master
Well this IS the Melee board.
HoChiMinhTrail
Smash Master
this X 100. It is possible to hate the game and not hate the individuals who play it. I feel bad for people that think Brawl is good and that what they are doing/seeing is hype, but I don't judge their personal character based off their ****ty judgement
. THe brawl and melee scene is pretty tight here in Chicago, we both play our seperate games at the tournies but generally we all come together for PM. I love to troll on the boards because I'm a bored little kid at work, but in person I am pretty respectful to brawl players, tho I still crack jokes about that special ed game. Honest discussion is good for the community, because honestly the community should steer towards uniting under one title. If I think people should play melee over brawl, then there really is no reason not to discuss the various reasonings behind my mindset, as long as I keep it respectable. I know I can't keep it respectable lol, so I'll just continue to read people's posts lmao. People are making some really good points here.Eggm
Smash Hero
I don't even feel bad that they think it's hype, I just struggle to understand why, to the point where I can't feel anything else about it.
All I got outta asking was I enjoy the "mental aspect", but no specifics. Lol.
All I got outta asking was I enjoy the "mental aspect", but no specifics. Lol.
Jockmaster
Smash Ace
Brawl is just ****ty
Like...really ****ty
I have played literally 6 hours of vBrawl in my life. It took me that long to realize I could not enjoy the game in any capacity. It's dumb as ****.
Like...really ****ty
I have played literally 6 hours of vBrawl in my life. It took me that long to realize I could not enjoy the game in any capacity. It's dumb as ****.
R2_GP
Smash Journeyman
ok, just got to say this..Tripping is one of the most stupid things i've seen in a video game.
MountainGoat
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2012
- Messages
- 247
I think i have a perspective to share that I haven't seen so far in the thread. I started playing 64 and melee when I was very young and only ever played it casually (I never knew anything about advanced techniques or that there were even tournaments). When Brawl came out it seemed pretty cool, there were lots of new characters, new stages and the graphics looked good. I played that casually as well (having a lot of fun in the process) and then forgot about it.
Fast forward a few years and I make a college friend that tells me that he plays melee. I thought wow I used to love that game but I didn't know people were still playing it. He teaches me a lot and I grow to really appreciate melee on a whole different level. When I returned to Brawl it to strange. We loaded the game and chose some characters and just started laughing. Brawl felt so much slower and floaty than I remembered.
However, before I knew deeper things about the games at all I preferred Brawl for its greater variety of options and the fact that it looked better. Brawl seems like it was never intended to be played in tournaments at all. It's fun for people to play, looks good and in that view it is a complete success. Brawl is a fun casual game. However, melee goes beyond that. I view Brawl as a fun game and melee as an e-sport or more competitive level of game.
Fast forward a few years and I make a college friend that tells me that he plays melee. I thought wow I used to love that game but I didn't know people were still playing it. He teaches me a lot and I grow to really appreciate melee on a whole different level. When I returned to Brawl it to strange. We loaded the game and chose some characters and just started laughing. Brawl felt so much slower and floaty than I remembered.
However, before I knew deeper things about the games at all I preferred Brawl for its greater variety of options and the fact that it looked better. Brawl seems like it was never intended to be played in tournaments at all. It's fun for people to play, looks good and in that view it is a complete success. Brawl is a fun casual game. However, melee goes beyond that. I view Brawl as a fun game and melee as an e-sport or more competitive level of game.
KhaosOverdrive
Smash Cadet
I had my good share of fun when I played it casually, with items and whatnot like with every Smash to date. But now after discovering competitive Melee/64 I just can't look at Brawl the same way.
Jonas
Smash Champion
It's hard to understand why I once loved Brawl. That was before I was introduced to competitive Melee, so maybe Brawl is a good game but just seems terrible in comparison. Idk.
Then again I'm not really into Melee either anymore.
Then again I'm not really into Melee either anymore.
In case you didn't notice, I mentioned Low/Mid Tier mains doing well at big tournaments, of which Brawl has a larger amount.
Let's look at APEX results to look for character diversity, only looking at bracket, and counting the amount of players that only or mostly (character is listed first in char usage) used characters that are below high tier for each game (Brawl Borderline tier will count as Mid)
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=316696
Brawl: 11/64 = ~17%, 10 unique Mid/Low tier characters
OCEAN (ROB) 9th
Will (DK) 25th
Poltergust (Yoshi) 33rd
Illmatic (Peach) 33rd
Trevonte (Fox) 33rd
DRN (Kirby) 33rd
FOW (Ness) 33rd
Dark.Pch (Peach) 49th
_X_ (Sonic) 49th
san (Ike) 49th
Seagull (Wolf) 49th
Melee: 9/64 = ~14%, 5 unique Mid/Low tier characters
Shroomed (Doc) 7th
Kage (Ganon) 33rd
Axe (Pikachu) 33rd
Plup (Samus) 33rd
darrel (Samus) 33rd
Vist (Luigi) 49th
Vudujin (Luigi) 49th
Linguini (Ganon) 49th
Hugs (Samus) 49th
If you want more recent results, I can go with the most recent Nationals, The Big House 2 for Melee and SKTAR for Brawl (WHOBO 4 is more recent, but it was MK banned, which doesn't help my point)
Once again, only taking Bracket into account, and only counting players who only or mostly (character is listed first in character usage) used characters that are not High tier (Brawl Borderline tier will count as Mid).
Sktar (64 man bracket): 9/64 = ~14%, 8 Unique Mid/Low tier characters
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=325312
Mekos (Lucas) 9th
Will (DK) 17th
Nakat (Fox)17th
Koolaid (Pit) 25th
Kiraflax (Pit) 33rd
Kiwi (Kirby) 49th
Pane (Wolf) 49th
Raptor (Yoshi) 49th
SuperMarioMC (Mr. G&W) 49th
The Big House 2: 2/32 = ~6%, 2 unique mid/low tier characters
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=328569
Duck (Samus) 13th
Vudujin (Luigi) 25th
Thank you for reading.
That is an interesting viewpoint. Disliking Brawl more for what other people outside the Smash community thinks?I've never ever been shy about saying brawl sucks, it ****s on everything we worked towards as a community. It was Sakurai's slap to the face of the competitive community, done for the casual controller throwing babies that MOSTLY (not all) make up brawls fanbase. These are the same kids that talked **** on smashboards, went to a melee tournament thinking they were hot stuff and got their lunch money stolen then went home and wrote angsty hate posts on gamefaqs.
But that isn't even the main reason I truly hate the game, it's because of the image it promotes about smash to the rest of the fighting game community. With most fighting games, as we all know each new iteration is just rebalanced, some combos changed, some nerfs happen and a few new characters and its practically a brand new game to them. The reason I say this is because this carries over into their assumptions about smash, since smash (as said by the competitive community) is a fighter, most people in the FGC will simply assume that brawl is the "latest" or "face of smash" like SFIV is for the SF community, or MVC3 is for the MVC community.
The big problem with this is, unlike traditional fighting games, each new iteration of smash is HUGELY different from the last so much so that the entire flow of the game is different. People see brawl and they go "OH **** SMASH IS A CASUAL BABY PARTY GAME, DISMISS NOT COOL SWEEP UNDER THE RUG **** TIER SERIES"...that PISSES ME OFF!
Of course there are those that will look at the moves and say "HEY THAT LOOKS THE SAME NOTHINGS CHANGED" well from a casual perspective I could easily say that since ken and ryu can hadouken, shoryuken, and tatsumaki senpukyaku its always the same as well, the difference is that smash has more levels of gameplay and cannot and should not be analyzed like that...neither series should.
THAT **** is why brawl pisses me off, **** that game. It shoulda been abandoned for the good of the community the second the metagame staled, when is the last time that game has shown steady progression? Prove me wrong.
Anyways, I respect Brawl for what it has to offer. I watch videos from time to time and yes, there are some horribly slow and painful to watch match-ups like Meta Knight vs Meta Knight, but that's what people think Brawl is all about. I think people like to blow up all of the faults Brawl has and reiterate these faults everywhere they can. Some of the Brawl videos I've seen have had me at the edge of my seat more than a really hyped Melee match. Brawl just plays differently than Melee and while I play Melee, I can understand why people might play and even continue playing Brawl. If you think simply picking Meta Knight and spamming his B move is all it takes to win (as you've heard everywhere most likely) then you're in for a surprise. As for the players, I think that's pretty irrelevant. You'll find immature players everywhere though I do acknowledge that there might be younger players in the Brawl community.
I personally don't like to play Brawl but I respect it for what it is and the players that play it. Though I won't lie and say that I don't like a good Brawl joke now and then.
My biggest gripe would probably have to be changes similar to these (appearance, voices such as Diddy Kong sounding like an actual monkey, etc.):
Mahie
Smash Lord
It might more spot on to compare those tournaments with early Melee ones, instead of tournaments 10 years into the metagame.BlackGold said:
I would say there is a correlation between proportion of higher tiers characters and maturity of the metagame.
Lovage
Smash Hero
the guy with the mewtwo avatar is stupid as ****
Bones0
Smash Legend
RPS has an even higher rate of diversity than barlw. That must make it deep, right? When the game is about jousting moves into each other for one or two hits at a time, it's no wonder there's so many characters that can be played at a high level. The reason Melee's low tiers don't cut it is because they are (almost) as limited, shallow, and one-dimensional as all of barlw's characters.
Hmm, that is a fair argument, but I'm too lazy to go looking for results from when Melee was 4-5 years old.
Shiny Mewtwo tyvm
Habefiet
Smash Journeyman
What am I even looking at
Starters: If "Borderline" tier in Bargleballs counts as mid, then we should absolutely count IC's as mid for the purposes of this conversation, since they're pretty widely accepted as being not-quote-high and not-quite-mid by most people. Which instantly adds more to both Melee tourneys (notably bringing TBH2 from 2 up to 5, making its percentage "beat" SKTAR).
Also, notice how only four of the top 32 at SKTAR or whatever fit your mid-tier classification. You can't compare the different numbers like that. Just doesn't work. If TBH2 had run a 64-man bracket, the number of people making bracket with lower tiered characters gets significantly higher. I don't know all the names on the list but a quick glance reveals a Ganon, a DK, and a Doc/YL that I'm aware of, and that's just me looking for names that I explicitly know off the top of my head. If we only look at top 32 and accept IC's as borderline, which are both things we should be doing, Melee actually wins.
Also, you're cherrypicking. Let's take a look at something like FC Legacy, where the following things happened:
--Pikachu got THIRD
--Ganon got fifth
--Seven mid/low tiers total in top 32 (bracket) alone, if we count ICs as mid, which we should by your logic. If not, that bumps us down to six. Oh no. Still higher than SKTAR had in its top 32.
--Sixteen low/mid tiers in top 64 by my count. That's 25 ****ing percent. Goes down to thirteen if we don't count any IC's players (which again your own logic seems to dictate that we should indeed count IC's).
I'm not even trying to say that Melee DOES necessarily have greater character variety, I'm just saying your logic and methodology were super, super flawed.
EDIT: How do you bold things?
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
But people have been arguing that Brawl's metagame has staled in maturity. Doesn't that mean it's already hit its maturity point and that comparing it to recent Melee tournaments is valid?
Unless you wanna say Brawl's metagame still has plenty of evolution left to undergo.
Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
Doesn't Brawl also have a far larger player-base? If we're going to look at it statistically, Brawls greater diversity is most likely due to a larger sample size.
To clarify, I'm not talking about how many people entered any specific tournament. Greater population = greater number of people playing each character = greater number of opportunities for competitively active players with each character = greater number of lower-tiered players going to tournaments/traveling/placing/etc.
To clarify, I'm not talking about how many people entered any specific tournament. Greater population = greater number of people playing each character = greater number of opportunities for competitively active players with each character = greater number of lower-tiered players going to tournaments/traveling/placing/etc.
If anything, that would emphasize high tier presence.
Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
Well, it would emphasize all presence. Yes, it would mostly emphasize high tiers, but it will also give a greater number of low tiers. High tier population has a higher growth rate, but low tiers still have a growth rate. The bottom line is that more people = more opportunity. More opportunity = more results. If more people are around to play low tiers, more low tiers have an opportunity to place.
I would argue that if low tiers have a tendency to get edged out by high tiers, and both scale by the same proportion as player count increases, then looking at the same absolute top placements (e.g. top 8, top 16, top 32, etc.) regardless of population should yield fewer low tiers, as their fraction of placement would be lower in terms of absolute placement numbers.
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
Region dependent, but on the whole, no.
They're probably smaller than us now. And they definitely have less organization; most of the major smash TOs are old melee vets.
[I don't mean that as a slight on the Brawl community. I think its great that they have created a scene around their game. Merely making an observation]
Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
I suppose that's a fair point.
I guess I'm just looking at it like... low tiers are only ever successful when a player is that much more talented than his competition. That kind of talent (and the selection of a low tier) is very rare, so you would need a very large population size to see that occur more.
Well, then I guess my point doesn't matter.
Life
Smash Hero
You know why BvM is taboo?
Because literally nothing has changed. This thread could have happened in 2008. There's no reason to keep bringing the subject up other than to troll.
I happen to have someone who I understand is a fairly well-respected Melee player on my ignore list. Won't say who. Why? Trolled the Brawl boards. Repeatedly. I got sick of it.
So yeah. There's nothing to be gained talking about this.
I have more to say, but no time to say it.
Because literally nothing has changed. This thread could have happened in 2008. There's no reason to keep bringing the subject up other than to troll.
I happen to have someone who I understand is a fairly well-respected Melee player on my ignore list. Won't say who. Why? Trolled the Brawl boards. Repeatedly. I got sick of it.
So yeah. There's nothing to be gained talking about this.
I have more to say, but no time to say it.
It certainly is true that as you raise sample size the possibility of outliers appearing rises as well, though at that point I'd be quicker to reference Brawl's outright greater number of character choices being a larger contributing factor to more unique characters appearing in results; unless they completely boned balance, of course.
Habefiet
Smash Journeyman
AND ANOTHER THING
What's this "Amount of Unique Characters" nonsense? No **** Brawl has more unique characters represented in bracket, it also has more unique characters in its bracket than Starcraft, wonder why? If a Melee tourney had all 26 of its characters in bracket, and Brawl had 27 characters in bracket at one of its events, would you be bragging that Brawl was more balanced?
Derp.
Look at proportions. If you look at the ratio of unique characters possible in each game that was represented at SKTAR and TBH2 (which I am emphasizing since that appears to be the example you intended to be more telling or dramatic) in the top 64, just off of the top of my head the 6 that I know of in Melee's make their ratio's effectively equal and actually puts Melee's higher (assuming you count IC's, of course, which again, by your own logic, we should absolutely do, since the IC's are literally where they are because they are borderline). And that's just players I recognize from a precursory glance, there might be one or two in there that I didn't recognize that used unique low/mid tier characters.
Or oh, here, here's a fun game, let's look at Top 8 from Apex 2012.
Brawl:
4 MKs
Olimar
ICs
Snake
Diddy
Five unique characters. Four of the top eight using the best character in the game. Five unique characters that were all top tier on the tier list at the time of the tournament, and that are now currently ranked as the top five characters in the game.
Melee:
Peach
Puff
Two Foxes
Falco
Sheik
Falcon
Doc
Winner=6th best on tier list, seven unique characters including one mid tier.
JUSS SAYIN'
What's this "Amount of Unique Characters" nonsense?
No **** Brawl has more unique characters represented in bracket, it also has more unique characters in its bracket than Starcraft, wonder why? If a Melee tourney had all 26 of its characters in bracket, and Brawl had 27 characters in bracket at one of its events, would you be bragging that Brawl was more balanced? Derp.
Look at proportions. If you look at the ratio of unique characters possible in each game that was represented at SKTAR and TBH2 (which I am emphasizing since that appears to be the example you intended to be more telling or dramatic) in the top 64, just off of the top of my head the 6 that I know of in Melee's make their ratio's effectively equal and actually puts Melee's higher (assuming you count IC's, of course, which again, by your own logic, we should absolutely do, since the IC's are literally where they are because they are borderline). And that's just players I recognize from a precursory glance, there might be one or two in there that I didn't recognize that used unique low/mid tier characters.
Or oh, here, here's a fun game, let's look at Top 8 from Apex 2012.
Brawl:
4 MKs
Olimar
ICs
Snake
Diddy
Five unique characters. Four of the top eight using the best character in the game. Five unique characters that were all top tier on the tier list at the time of the tournament, and that are now currently ranked as the top five characters in the game.
Melee:
Peach
Puff
Two Foxes
Falco
Sheik
Falcon
Doc
Winner=6th best on tier list, seven unique characters including one mid tier.
JUSS SAYIN'
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
I think its much more dependant on the overall average skill of the playerbase.
Its much harder to win with a low tier when everyone is godlike at the game, than if most of the community sucks.
...
...
I think the point is moot though because anyone who knows anything about the games ought to be able to tell you that Pikachu is much better relative to Falco than Toon Link is relative to Metaknight or whatever. You don't need results to tell you that; its ****ing obvious.
I can't believe some of you are taking this balance comparison seriously.
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
idk, diddy, mk are pretty great characters that would **** a melee environment, imo.
Lovage
Smash Hero
diddy would get ****ed up in melee are you serious
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
MK would still be the clear best tho. I can't even imagine what Melee characters would do against his glide attack. Plus with Melee's fall speeds uair would be disgusting.
Melomaniacal
Smash Champion
To be fair, I'm not really taking the comparison seriously, I'm just playing devil's advocate.
That's also a good point.
Basically, the whole argument is sorta pointless and irrelevant.
When making this comparison, are we assuming that Metaknight has Melee's hitstun on his attacks? If not, I'm not sure if he'd be that good.
This is why I'm curious as to what happens in Project M with MK
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
Doesn't even matter.
Look at this ****
frame 3 dtilt, only 10 frames of cooldown (Melee comparison: Marth's broken *** dtilt comes out in 7 frames and has 11 frames of cooldown...if you IASA)
frame 5 dsmash (another hitbox frame 10) - KILL MOVE
frame 3 nair, lasts 22 frames - KILL MOVE
frame 4 dair (massive hitbox). Causes knockdowns (in Melee this is a biiiig deal). edgeguards/spikes offstage
frame 2 uair, only 9 frames of cooldown
frame 8 massive shuttle loop. lasts 28 frames and goes into glide attack after
Oh and he has a Jiggs' jumps/aerial mobility + a massive sword. Small hurtbox too. Btw no arcs on his sword everything comes out immediately.
No one in melee has anything like this lol. The entire Melee cast would get bopped free.
Habefiet
Smash Journeyman
Wait.
Waitwaitwait.
Wait.
Couldn't we DO this? Couldn't the P:M team just make a demo with MK completely untouched and have Mango's Melee Fox versus M2K's Brawl MK go at it? Or would it not be possible to have some of the stuff like air dodges/hitstun mechanics/etc. not be uniform across all characters?
For what it's worth, I would die laughing if this became a reality and it was last game last stock and Mango was about to lose and M2K tripped and Mango killed him off it.
Also BlackGold are you going to respond to like anything I said or not
Waitwaitwait.
Wait.
Couldn't we DO this? Couldn't the P:M team just make a demo with MK completely untouched and have Mango's Melee Fox versus M2K's Brawl MK go at it? Or would it not be possible to have some of the stuff like air dodges/hitstun mechanics/etc. not be uniform across all characters?
For what it's worth, I would die laughing if this became a reality and it was last game last stock and Mango was about to lose and M2K tripped and Mango killed him off it.
Also BlackGold are you going to respond to like anything I said or not
Gea
Smash Master
Project M doesn't exactly perfectly simulate Melee.
Bones0
Smash Legend
What do you mean by untouched? Would he be able to break out of combos super easily and airdodge multiple times and have ridiculous unshield speed? He'd be so broken there wouldn't even be a debate. If you gave him Melee-based stun and converted all of his basic properties to Melee's, he'd still be broken, but at least he wouldn't be herpderp easy to play.Wait.
Waitwaitwait.
Wait.
Couldn't we DO this? Couldn't the P:M team just make a demo with MK completely untouched and have Mango's Melee Fox versus M2K's Brawl MK go at it? Or would it not be possible to have some of the stuff like air dodges/hitstun mechanics/etc. not be uniform across all characters?
For what it's worth, I would die laughing if this became a reality and it was last game last stock and Mango was about to lose and M2K tripped and Mango killed him off it.
Also BlackGold are you going to respond to like anything I said or not
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