How soon is "too soon" for Brawl?

[Stevo]

So how long has it been now since Brawl came out? Are we allowed to speak our minds about how much we hate brawl yet? Or is it still frowned upon by the mods? I mean, most traumatic events you can (safely) start making jokes about them within a year. It varies depending on how "close to home" the event was, and the internet will often make fun of things within days, but let's just call it a year. This is in reference to terrible catastrophic things such as hurricanes or earthquakes too! Not just a video game not living up to our expectations!

So.... is it still too soon to talk about Brawl? I think we all need some group therapy about this. I, for one, have still not gotten over it. I'll joke about it, but the fact of the matter is, Brawl was one of the biggest let downs of lots of our lives. It would almost be IMPOSSIBLE for a game to let me down more than Brawl did.

We were all there. Refreshing the Dojo page waiting for the next update. There were a few Hype trailer videos Nintendo released that almost brought tears of joy to our faces. I still get this feeling like we are not really allowed to talk openly about how bad Brawl was/is. It's like we have to do it in a small remark at the end of our posts, hoping nobody takes it too seriously, but we know the truth.

We know.

We know.


This is the kind of posts we have to resort to using.

"I think Marth vs peach is actually even, because, although Marth outranges peach very easily, Brawl sucks, Peach often can live to high percents and can force a battle of attrition and, more often than not, is able to win that battle."


Maybe it's all in my head, I'm not too sure. Maybe most people are over it now. However, one thing is for certain, I need to release the baggage. Perhaps some others need to as well.

So,
I would like to openly, and without remorse, announce that I despise Brawl. You are all welcome to do the same. (unless mods close this)



I would like to also mention that in no way does it bother me if some people actually enjoy brawl. To each their own. I hate the game, not the playa.

 

[Bones0]

There was a grace period for hating barlw? I've been *****ing about the game since I saw that E3 vid with Gimpyfish and KillaOR and the disturbing lack of WDing and comboes.

I've seen and participated super hardcore barlw bashing, and the only time I've been modded was because it was in the barlw forums in a thread about banning Metaknight:

[collapse=barlw sux]

URC be mad.

[/collapse]
This is also relevant to barlw-haters interest.

 

[Lovage]

good **** to the brawl community for making a place for themselves


but the game still sucks huge ****

 

[Eggm]

Every 6 months or so I end up at a melee tournament that also has brawl at it, and every single time I am completely astonished that real people are actually sitting around at TV's and playing that game while actually caring and showing real emotion to the match they are watching or playing.

I literally just can't believe it and don't know what to think. Brawl is simply horribly boring, and even a lot of the players say that, and while it's still competitive (cause you can make basically anything competitive with enough motivation to do so), I can't figure out why they would choose to play that game over something like AE or Melee. Perplexing.

 

[Achilles1515]

I''m just curious to know what goes through brawl players' mind when they watch people play melee - when they see speed and actual combos and what not. Do they even understand what theyre seeing? Eggm has the perfect word for it; "perplexing" as to why people choose brawl over melee.

 

[CableCho57]

this is was the same confusion I had as to why brawl players are open to play P:M (even ENJOY it) but still hate melee

wth?

similar mechanics, movement, combos, hit stun etc as melee, but melee sucks and P:M is okay for brawl players

 

[EthereaL]

Brawl and Melee are two different games.

Once one realizes that, the fact that people enjoy Brawl doesn't surprise so much.

Yes, I, too, was disappointed. I hated Brawl as a sequel to Melee. However, I, too, love Brawl for the game it is.

 

[Acedude55]

Theres actually people whod play PM but still dislike melee? hmm

I first got competitive with brawl, but played melee way longer as a casual and after looking into the competitive side after getting into brawl competitively, I really liked it..although I never did play melee like I did brawl (bad idea. huge regret. simple practice here and there). It has the edge over brawl in terms of skill needed obviously..having the edge in fun is just up to the player. Both games have ups and downs and are so opposite from one eachother which is why we're so divided.

As a brawl player more over melee even I can't explain why I like it much. Just something about it.. plus I really only play for captain falcon (weird isn't it?)

 

[Stevo]

My post was only half serious, but the other day I realized that many people still feel like saying Brawl sucks openly is kind of taboo. I guess probably because many people still enjoy it,which is perplexing to many of us as Eggm said.

I just think it's time anyone who still feels bad about feeling bad about brawl should just let it go.

Release the pain.

 

[standardtoaster]

i don't get what some people say about melee not feeling responsive enough

if it's about buffer, suck it up and deal with it because this is how it should be

 

[Stevo]

i don't get what some people say about melee not feeling responsive enough

if it's about buffer, suck it up and deal with it because this is how it should be

This is actually the biggest issue I have had when trying to convert brawl players to melee or Project M.

they just say it isn't as smooth or responsive. The only thing I can think of is start them out with buffer in Project M.... but I just cringe at the idea.

 

[standardtoaster]

it's because they're used to brawl handholding them with insane amount of buffer :/

 

[SpiderMad]

I actually wish Melee had a 1 frame buffer, as well as P:M's wifi (light press) air dodge (though P:M only has hard shields so adding in light shields to a light press air dodge might make it a little weird). P:M demo v2.1 also has easier jump starts since they never changed Brawl's jump mechanics so that it registers a short hop on the very last frame possible rather than Melee where it had another frame it could use but didn't (so Fox and Sheik and other's SH is 1 frame easier in P:M).

I can totally see and imagine how more on point Melee play would be with a 1 frame buffer as I've seen it in P:M. As well as how awesome the light press air dodge is.

Brawl does suck, but
1- It's still a "Smash" game, so the general basics are the same. I'd still rather play this than some of the other stupid games out there (and also I think SSB4 might suck more than Brawl, just for the sake of not being able to use a Gamecube controller).
2- Their combo videos are SO well edited, and their clips can actually be decent once they find every good clip for hours and hours of play.

You can appreciate certain aspects of Brawl, some people chose to hate it to no end though which is sad to see since it's almost all bias or ignorance or from peer pressure or something. This same thing also applies for Brawl players who hate Melee, but do I need to explain the thought process of a 12 year old? But a lot of Brawl players on Fsmash.org do acknowledge the many flaws of Brawl but they don't dwell on them.

So far I've enjoyed these Brawl videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qbM5ZYzFAQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7161d1oq9AU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQs0JYy_iw8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5sJ27yJ5x4&feature=relmfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMH5RWFmgLc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FPd7PVrfpw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fG4RINOgekg&feature=relmfu

 

[GunBlaze]

I actually wish Melee had a 1 frame buffer

 

[Sixth-Sense]

I've never understood brawl players either, the only brawl tournament i've gone too (ok the ONLY smash related tournament) had this triple d's player (he won by the way, just chain-grabbing everyone to death) who i got in a conversation with, this was the first time meeting a smasher, and he left me......worried. He said Brawl was somehow more FREE and MELEE LIMITS YOU SOME HOW................. sorry i'm just..........oh god my stomach turns thinking about it

About brawl players likeing PM but still finding melee unenjoyable, i've come to the conclusion that they simply don't like it because of how old it is, it's no longer fresh nor hip in thier eyes, and i guess everyone only knowing about brawl could also be a factor in not likeing melee.

 

[TL?]

Why even bother voicing your dislike for brawl at this point? It's been done a million times on these forums, and you probably don't have a new angle or reason for why brawl is bad. I don't like the game either, but you're extremely late to the party if you're making "brawl sucks" topics in 2012.

 

[Eggm]

Brawl and Melee are two different games.

Once one realizes that, the fact that people enjoy Brawl doesn't surprise so much.

Yes, I, too, was disappointed. I hated Brawl as a sequel to Melee. However, I, too, love Brawl for the game it is.

What specifically do you enjoy about brawl? Just out of curiosity. If that came out as condescending, it wasn't supposed to, I am genuinely curious.

 

[Oracle]

this is was the same confusion I had as to why brawl players are open to play P:M (even ENJOY it) but still hate melee

wth?

similar mechanics, movement, combos, hit stun etc as melee, but melee sucks and P:M is okay for brawl players

P:M has a lot of leftover brawl mechanics, plus many of the same stages so its easier to switch. Also there are a handful of characters that you can play almost identically to their brawl counterparts (snake, ddd, wario

As for why people like brawl over melee, from what i've seen a lot of brawl players just got in when brawl was new and are really intimidated by the learning curve. Its pretty hard to start playing a new game when your competition has 4-5 years of experience on average

 

[CableCho57]

^lol Rob, that sig

I'm also really confused my former melee pros who play brawl exclusively
we should get them to come in here and share their opinions

 

[EthereaL]

What specifically do you enjoy about brawl? Just out of curiosity. If that came out as condescending, it wasn't supposed to, I am genuinely curious.

I enjoy the mental aspects of Brawl, and I like several of the characters.

 

[RFrizzle]

What mental aspects does brawl have that melee doesn't?

 

[Shadow Huan]

there's a lot more time to come up with a strategy becuase the pace of the game is slower. even metaknight doesn't have the in your face quality that the spacies have with thier bull****, or falcon has with his mobility, or shiek has with her... shiekness

chainthrows aside, there are more ways to reset the positioning, and the top characters are very defensive in a defensive game. so since the pace of the game is slower, it's easier to react to an opponent trying to break your defense, making it sorta like chess

i'm probably way off but whatever lol

 

[rjgbadger]

brawl has tripping
brawl has airdodges that dont send you into special fall
brawl has a lack of wavedash
brawl has a lack of aerial cancelling.

brawl is not a smash game. it is a king of the hill style beat em up game.

 

[Shadow Huan]

brawl has tripping
brawl has airdodges that dont send you into special fall
brawl has a lack of wavedash
brawl has a lack of aerial cancelling.

brawl is not a smash game. it is a king of the hill style beat em up game.

1: 64 doesn't have (thank goodness)

2: 64 doesn't have airdodges @ all

3: 64 doesn't have wavedashing

4: 64's aerial cancelling is better than melee's

is 64 also not a smash game?

 

[EthereaL]

What mental aspects does brawl have that melee doesn't?

Do you choose not to read before you post?

 

[Youngling]

brawl and melee are different games????????????????? oh my god!

wow my opinion on brawl has COMPLETELY changed!

thenxxxx!!!!!!!

 

[Juushichi]

Not going to lie, as much as I love playing Melee (trying to convert, myself... most likely going to stay with P:M and then Melee/SDR for funsies) trying to do anything in the community is like trying to play against Tekken players with one key difference:

You guys know the bull**** (I'm talking about **** that shouldn't work, but does),
You guys have the experience,
You guys have the passion (which I love and respect),
but ya'll can't teach for ****. Tekken players will sit down with you, show you basic ****, explain how to punish it and so on. I understand the nature of the game is different, but I mean... somehow new people manage to learn this game, I guess.

I can't tell you how many times I've played Melee with good people, found something that was ****** me, thought I could identify what it was, asked about it and got some bull**** answer en route to getting ***** by the same thing over and over with impunity. Or went and got styled on and then got to watch and wait my turn for the next rotation. Also, for as little as people know about low tiers (you don't really have to to be fair) any new player is going to be running into 10 years of vs Fox/Falco/Peach/Sheik/Puff/Falcon/Marth, etc, etc. It's a large mountain to climb.

 

[poega]

Why even bother voicing your dislike for brawl at this point? It's been done a million times on these forums, and you probably don't have a new angle or reason for why brawl is bad. I don't like the game either, but you're extremely late to the party if you're making "brawl sucks" topics in 2012.

Agreed, this is getting pretty ridiculous. There is no way in hell there is a single poster/lurker here who is not 100% aware of how much most melee players hate brawl.

 

[RFrizzle]

What didn't I read? Do you choose to be a condescending little **** all the time?

 

[outofphase]

is there any real way to determine which game is better? its all a matter of opinion. but when youre talking which is more competitive, i feel a much stronger case can be made for melee. risk and reward+level of tech skill+speed are all greater in melee. if you want to win at brawl, you should always be reactive, whereas melee can be played much more diversely at high levels. aside from that, all brawl characters have pretty much one strategy they are based upon. stray too far and its not likely youll accomplish anything. melee characters can be played a variety of ways and still produce wins

 

[ShroudedOne]

Not going to lie, as much as I love playing Melee (trying to convert, myself... most likely going to stay with P:M and then Melee/SDR for funsies) trying to do anything in the community is like trying to play against Tekken players with one key difference:

You guys know the bull**** (I'm talking about **** that shouldn't work, but does),
You guys have the experience,
You guys have the passion (which I love and respect),
but ya'll can't teach for ****. Tekken players will sit down with you, show you basic ****, explain how to punish it and so on. I understand the nature of the game is different, but I mean... somehow new people manage to learn this game, I guess.

I can't tell you how many times I've played Melee with good people, found something that was ****** me, thought I could identify what it was, asked about it and got some bull**** answer en route to getting ***** by the same thing over and over with impunity. Or went and got styled on and then got to watch and wait my turn for the next rotation. Also, for as little as people know about low tiers (you don't really have to to be fair) any new player is going to be running into 10 years of vs Fox/Falco/Peach/Sheik/Puff/Falcon/Marth, etc, etc. It's a large mountain to climb.

This is a legitimate gripe. We're bad at teaching (most of us).

 

[EPsilon933]

There aren't clear answers in Melee. This is not a game you can teach

 

[KrIsP!]

What mental aspects does brawl have that melee doesn't?

You get an extra ten minutes to plan your approach.

 

[Twinkles]

Anyone can teach this game, but they have to be teaching someone who's going to learn.
And they have to not suck.

 

[Mahie]

That's because, compared to other fighting games, there's a bigger proportion of people playing the game on instinct, which makes it harder to explain. Usually the better teachers are the ones with a more analytical playstyle.
Codified games like Tekken are for that reason easier to explain. There are things that work and thing that don't, but in Melee, there are way too many variables to think of.

 

[Shiny Mewtwo aka Jigglysir]

I like both Brawl and Melee. I like the games for different reasons.

Reasons I like Brawl:
More character Diversity - Results for almost all tournaments in Melee are completely made up of Fox, Falco, Sheik, Peach, Marth, Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff and sometimes ICs. Brawl tournaments seem a lot more diverse, and almost every tournament has at least one mid tier main doing well, usually more. (I realize that this is primarily due to there being more characters in Brawl)

Lower learning curve and tech requirements - The game is simply easier to play

Feels more rewarding when I win - In Brawl when I win I feel like I outplayed my opponent, like I outsmarted him. In Melee when I win it feels less like I outplayed my opponent and more like I got more death combos and edgeguards (the exception to this is when I win with Mewtwo, I know I outplayed my opponent in those cases).

Reasons I like Melee:
Faster pace
More aggression
Mewtwo
More exciting to watch
Combos
Mewtwo
More hype
MEWTWO

That's all I can think of for now.

 

[Stevo]

This is a legitimate gripe. We're bad at teaching (most of us).

yep

That's because, compared to other fighting games, there's a bigger proportion of people playing the game on instinct, which makes it harder to explain. Usually the better teachers are the ones with a more analytical playstyle.
Codified games like Tekken are for that reason easier to explain. There are things that work and thing that don't, but in Melee, there are way too many variables to think of.

and this, for the most part, is why we are bad at teaching it.

 

[Alphicans]

I find it so weird that melee players view that the lack of combos and tech skill in brawl make it less of a competitive game, even though by definition these things are not aspects of games and strategy at all. Like tbh the concept of l-canceling is ****ing ********.

 

[Stevo]

maybe I missed it, but I think most people acknowledge that brawl can be competetive. I think we just don't always understand why people find it enjoyable.

 

[Vkrm]

The main reason people play brawl over melee is simple, they just don't know much about melee. On top of that I imagine its hard to admit that brawls a polished turd after you've sunk so much time into it.