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How Popular Do You Think Project M Shall Get?

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Shouxiao

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 11, 2013
Messages
213
Project M is without a doubt the most popular mod. How popular do you think it is going to get? It is maybe just a dream but think of Project M being at Evo or something. I see it getting a bit more known once all of characters, fixes, bugs, etc are done.
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
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Messages
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it is my hope that Super Smash Bros. Melee completely dies out and Project M replaces it.
 

MikeHaggarTHAKJB

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 12, 2008
Messages
3,186
Location
Göteborg, Sweden
it is my hope that Super Smash Bros. Melee completely dies out and Project M replaces it.
i seriously think we should make a fund for nintendo discarding ssb4 and just make Project M ssb4
well, this would make it happen

nintendo would save tons of money

they can take the game, make a bunch of new dumb stages, add new items, etc
 

iode

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 18, 2010
Messages
44
Location
New Jersey
Oh man, here comes the passion....

It's my sincerest hope that PM really kicks into gear and replaces Melee sometime in the future, maybe even the near future. You could argue that PM is already kicked into gear, if so, then I would want PM kicked into overdrive. Not just content with replacing Melee and getting the carryover from Melee's current player-base, but even going so far as to garner Brawl faithfuls and new blood from around the world.

Why would I think this? Because I really, REALLY believe that PM, even in its current unfinished state, is a better game than Melee. Now, before I get start getting hundreds of replies bashing me from all sides, hear me out - Melee is a wonderful game, in fact, it was really the game that kicked the community in the balls and said, "look, this is what a fresh genre of competitive fighting game looks like, and this is what you can do, and this is how hype it can get." Unfortunately, the thing with Melee is that it was never designed to be competitive, and that's a point that's worth reiterating time and time again. The idea of a game created on the principles of competitive Melee, governed by a team of developers and players that love and understand the game intimately enough, and sitting on top of an engine that makes it all possible, is really a holy grail combination that can make real the next step in smash's evolution.

Now, I'm not here to dismiss Melee completely, the game itself deserves a lot of respect in its legacy and what it has taught all of us; I'm not here to just kick an old game while it's down. What I am going to do is highlight a few major flaws that, in my opinion, is the driving force for why PM is better than Melee. Melee's best parts are infallible, which is exactly why PM exists, but in the same way, its flaws are glaring, which is also exactly why PM should exist.

1. This is the most important point to drive home. Melee's end-to-end tier list is too large. What do I mean by this? No, Melee doesn't have too many characters. What I mean is that the "power" gap between the top 5 characters in the game and the bottom 5 characters is just too large. This is easily summed up by a single word known as "imbalanced". Many of you might say, "Man iode, it's terribly difficult to create a fighting game that's perfectly balanced, even for fighting games that were designed from the ground up by developers to be balanced, why all the hate for Melee?" Well, first off, I wouldn't love PM so much if I hated Melee, and secondly, that's the sheer and utter beauty of PM - it CAN be balanced.
Consider this scenario to highlight just how imbalanced Melee can be.
The top 5 players in the world obviously have poured hundreds if not thousands of hours into this game. They have perfected their craft. They have perfected their Falco, their Fox, their Sheik, their Marth, their Puff, and their Peach. And as such, they have reaped the rewards. More than once, they have walked out of a major with heads held high, fistful of cash, glory in hand. First place, second place, or maybe third place. Now let's change perspectives a little, away from the limelight of the best of the best, let's consider the DK mains, the Roy mains, the Link mains, the Pichu mains, the Yoshi mains, and even the Falcon mains... this list goes on and on. What if they too, poured hundreds if not thousands of hours into the game as well? What if they too, also want the win just as badly as the top 5 players? What if they too, have perfected their craft with just as much grit and passion as any of the top players? After all, they have single handedly carried nearly the entire metagame of their character on their backs. Their controller stick is just as worn out as everyone else's. Now, I'm not going to name any names, but names should pop up in your mind almost instantly. Don't they also deserve a shot at the top, a place in the spotlight, while still playing a character they have every right to use? Does hard work, blood, and sweat not equate even a chance? Melee, in its current state, asks this question of these players, "Do you want to keep playing your low tier or do you want to break the top 5 at a national?" Just the fact that Melee forces players to answer that question, is a huge flaw in and of itself. It's upsetting when hard work and talent may not necessarily equate itself to higher placement just because of a character choice.
Before you tell me that at high level, it's player skill that determines match outcomes and character johns are just excuses, play this scenario in your mind first - a Melee match between the world's best Bowser versus the world's best Fox. What happens? You're forced to automatically assuming that that Fox will win. Mindsets like that shouldn't happen. It means you're already compensating for the characters' tier list when deciding the outcome of the match. What if the Bowser main has put in double, no triple, the hours of the Fox main? Yet, the outcome appears to be the same, time and time again. This is the current state of Melee, and it cannot be changed. But my oh my, is PM such an elegant solution for such a dire issue.

2. Cast variability. because of the above-stated reason, Melee has fallen into sort of a slump of match up repetition. This is a harder point to argue as the above one, since it's kind of subjective. In my opinion, PM offers a much needed cast expansion, and the fact that PM can, and will, be balanced means that the entire 100% of the character count can be put to use in staging matchups that will continue to excite players and audience alike. Melee has 7 highly recurring characters in tournaments. Obviously, those 7 conveniently fall within the top 7 of the tier list. A combination of 7 choose 2, means that Melee tournaments, on average, will host a mathematically converging count of 21 different matchups. Now let's look at the theoretical numbers for PM. Assuming graceful balancing and relative viability per character, we're looking at 38 choose 2 combinations of matchups. That's a whopping 703 possible matchups. That. Is. ****ing. Beautiful. What better way to breathe new life into a genre of fighting game that we all love to the ends of the world than to have matchups that have us guessing who the hell is going to win? What technology is viable against whom? Variability is a wonderful thing guys, and I can attest to it myself, especially when watching Wobbles vs Fly Amanita in IC dittos at KoC2, a lot of the excitement in the room and on stream came from the freshness of the matchup and the unknown technique they were trying on each other. I believe the Smash game to deliver this jolt of hype and complexity is most definitely Project M.

3. God-damn balance, man. It's so freaking important. Why is League of Legends, a game probably all of you are familiar with, so successful? Why is it able to host multi-million dollar tournaments around the world... multiple times a year? It's because it's a game in motion. It's a game that has the seeing eye of fairness looking on 24/7. Being a free online game also helps as well. But really, the competitive scene thrives off of balance. It thrives off of knowing that wrongs can be righted. It thrives when everyone knows they and their flavor of character really has a chance against the next Mango, Hbox, PP, Armada, or M2K. All it takes is hard work and a dash of talent. This may seem like a reiteration of my first point, but it certainly is important enough to be restated. Project M is the hands-down answer and solution to all three points I laid out. Even in its current beta state.

It's not my intention for people reading this to convert to PM and be hostile to Melee. Far from it, in fact. I definitely don't think it's proper for there to be any animosity between smash communities. If anything, I believe that Project M's success will be very much due to the support of Melee players in the future. Melee players are a special breed, able to raise nearly $100,000 in charity to keep a game they feel strongly about alive. It's that same kind of passion that I hope will hold Project M up, even in its most troubling times.

TL;DR
No, read it all, or don't. I bled my soul dry on smashboards tonight.
 

Avalancer

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 24, 2008
Messages
262
Location
The Netherlands
Stating my opinion would be unnecessary because iode already said everything I wanted to say. I feel P:M is a lot more suited for competitive play because it gets balanced, playtested and fixed by the community.
 

JbrockPony

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 15, 2013
Messages
123
Location
Gerudo Valley , Chicago
NNID
JbrockPony
Oh man, here comes the passion....

It's my sincerest hope that PM really kicks into gear and replaces Melee sometime in the future, maybe even the near future. You could argue that PM is already kicked into gear, if so, then I would want PM kicked into overdrive. Not just content with replacing Melee and getting the carryover from Melee's current player-base, but even going so far as to garner Brawl faithfuls and new blood from around the world.

Why would I think this? Because I really, REALLY believe that PM, even in its current unfinished state, is a better game than Melee. Now, before I get start getting hundreds of replies bashing me from all sides, hear me out - Melee is a wonderful game, in fact, it was really the game that kicked the community in the balls and said, "look, this is what a fresh genre of competitive fighting game looks like, and this is what you can do, and this is how hype it can get." Unfortunately, the thing with Melee is that it was never designed to be competitive, and that's a point that's worth reiterating time and time again. The idea of a game created on the principles of competitive Melee, governed by a team of developers and players that love and understand the game intimately enough, and sitting on top of an engine that makes it all possible, is really a holy grail combination that can make real the next step in smash's evolution.

Now, I'm not here to dismiss Melee completely, the game itself deserves a lot of respect in its legacy and what it has taught all of us; I'm not here to just kick an old game while it's down. What I am going to do is highlight a few major flaws that, in my opinion, is the driving force for why PM is better than Melee. Melee's best parts are infallible, which is exactly why PM exists, but in the same way, its flaws are glaring, which is also exactly why PM should exist.

1. This is the most important point to drive home. Melee's end-to-end tier list is too large. What do I mean by this? No, Melee doesn't have too many characters. What I mean is that the "power" gap between the top 5 characters in the game and the bottom 5 characters is just too large. This is easily summed up by a single word known as "imbalanced". Many of you might say, "Man iode, it's terribly difficult to create a fighting game that's perfectly balanced, even for fighting games that were designed from the ground up by developers to be balanced, why all the hate for Melee?" Well, first off, I wouldn't love PM so much if I hated Melee, and secondly, that's the sheer and utter beauty of PM - it CAN be balanced.
Consider this scenario to highlight just how imbalanced Melee can be.
The top 5 players in the world obviously have poured hundreds if not thousands of hours into this game. They have perfected their craft. They have perfected their Falco, their Fox, their Sheik, their Marth, their Puff, and their Peach. And as such, they have reaped the rewards. More than once, they have walked out of a major with heads held high, fistful of cash, glory in hand. First place, second place, or maybe third place. Now let's change perspectives a little, away from the limelight of the best of the best, let's consider the DK mains, the Roy mains, the Link mains, the Pichu mains, the Yoshi mains, and even the Falcon mains... this list goes on and on. What if they too, poured hundreds if not thousands of hours into the game as well? What if they too, also want the win just as badly as the top 5 players? What if they too, have perfected their craft with just as much grit and passion as any of the top players? After all, they have single handedly carried nearly the entire metagame of their character on their backs. Their controller stick is just as worn out as everyone else's. Now, I'm not going to name any names, but names should pop up in your mind almost instantly. Don't they also deserve a shot at the top, a place in the spotlight, while still playing a character they have every right to use? Does hard work, blood, and sweat not equate even a chance? Melee, in its current state, asks this question of these players, "Do you want to keep playing your low tier or do you want to break the top 5 at a national?" Just the fact that Melee forces players to answer that question, is a huge flaw in and of itself. It's upsetting when hard work and talent may not necessarily equate itself to higher placement just because of a character choice.
Before you tell me that at high level, it's player skill that determines match outcomes and character johns are just excuses, play this scenario in your mind first - a Melee match between the world's best Bowser versus the world's best Fox. What happens? You're forced to automatically assuming that that Fox will win. Mindsets like that shouldn't happen. It means you're already compensating for the characters' tier list when deciding the outcome of the match. What if the Bowser main has put in double, no triple, the hours of the Fox main? Yet, the outcome appears to be the same, time and time again. This is the current state of Melee, and it cannot be changed. But my oh my, is PM such an elegant solution for such a dire issue.

2. Cast variability. because of the above-stated reason, Melee has fallen into sort of a slump of match up repetition. This is a harder point to argue as the above one, since it's kind of subjective. In my opinion, PM offers a much needed cast expansion, and the fact that PM can, and will, be balanced means that the entire 100% of the character count can be put to use in staging matchups that will continue to excite players and audience alike. Melee has 7 highly recurring characters in tournaments. Obviously, those 7 conveniently fall within the top 7 of the tier list. A combination of 7 choose 2, means that Melee tournaments, on average, will host a mathematically converging count of 21 different matchups. Now let's look at the theoretical numbers for PM. Assuming graceful balancing and relative viability per character, we're looking at 38 choose 2 combinations of matchups. That's a whopping 703 possible matchups. That. Is. ****ing. Beautiful. What better way to breathe new life into a genre of fighting game that we all love to the ends of the world than to have matchups that have us guessing who the hell is going to win? What technology is viable against whom? Variability is a wonderful thing guys, and I can attest to it myself, especially when watching Wobbles vs Fly Amanita in IC dittos at KoC2, a lot of the excitement in the room and on stream came from the freshness of the matchup and the unknown technique they were trying on each other. I believe the Smash game to deliver this jolt of hype and complexity is most definitely Project M.

3. God-damn balance, man. It's so freaking important. Why is League of Legends, a game probably all of you are familiar with, so successful? Why is it able to host multi-million dollar tournaments around the world... multiple times a year? It's because it's a game in motion. It's a game that has the seeing eye of fairness looking on 24/7. Being a free online game also helps as well. But really, the competitive scene thrives off of balance. It thrives off of knowing that wrongs can be righted. It thrives when everyone knows they and their flavor of character really has a chance against the next Mango, Hbox, PP, Armada, or M2K. All it takes is hard work and a dash of talent. This may seem like a reiteration of my first point, but it certainly is important enough to be restated. Project M is the hands-down answer and solution to all three points I laid out. Even in its current beta state.

It's not my intention for people reading this to convert to PM and be hostile to Melee. Far from it, in fact. I definitely don't think it's proper for there to be any animosity between smash communities. If anything, I believe that Project M's success will be very much due to the support of Melee players in the future. Melee players are a special breed, able to raise nearly $100,000 in charity to keep a game they feel strongly about alive. It's that same kind of passion that I hope will hold Project M up, even in its most troubling times.

TL;DR
No, read it all, or don't. I bled my soul dry on smashboards tonight.
Dude this post is gonna make me cry. WELL SAID!! I couldn't agree more!! I wish there was more people like you around Chicago. The fighting scene here sees smash bros as a joke since they think of it as a party game. Usually this is because this so called competitive fighters are either nintendo haters or they never played a smash bros game on a competitive leve. I often get into arguments when I have to explain that their is advanced mechanics in the smash bros series, especially on project M.

Thats another thing, even with project M I get problems with the brawl fanboys/casuals (don't mean to offend anyone here). When the brawl fanboys tell me that Brawl is better in melee because of the floaty-ness and the smash ball, I cringe and burn up inside. I've notice most of the common brawl fanboys who say things like that, it also correlates with the fact they like to be the "camping" type, big stage with plattforms with a array of items at their disposal. Even if the brawl fanboys are competitive types, they scrutinized melee because of it's fast pace gravity and air dodging.

Yes I know its pointless to argue with the casuals about Project M, but I feel if I don't say anything at all about it, the project M team won't ever get that love they deserve for all their hard work. I really do hope Project M shines radiantly in the future, give birth to a new generation of competitive players.
 

Mithost

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 22, 2011
Messages
690
Location
Locked in a safe floating in the Atlantic Ocean.
Project M is already a fairly popular game. Smashboards has given it it's own forum, you can stream Project M (I believe people are trying to get it it's own name in twitch), and there isn't very many active smash players that don't know what Project M is. Project M needs two things before it can become more of a main smash game.

-It needs to be finished. All the characters need to be in there. I've lost too many people to "hey, where's ______?" when we reach the character select screen.
-It needs support from a major tournament. Be it Apex or Evo or any other major fighting game tournament, Project M needs to be tried as a standalone game instead of a side event or melee alternative.

If these two things happen, we will be able to recruit players from both games (melee/brawl) seamlessly. Project M can get people hooked by itself, it just needs help with getting people to pick up the controller.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
Project M is probably near the zenith of its popularity. It'll still get bigger in popularity but there really just isn't enough time to even host large events for P:M. The playerbase doesn't exist yet and there aren't many dedicated TOs for P:M alone. Smash 4, if it's a tournament game at all (and yes, Brawl was a successful tournament franchise), will snag a large majority of players and nearly ALL of the new players.

Project M is also forced to use a Wii when its main base (Melee players) use a Gamecube, but that doesn't seem to be of much consequence as Wiis are cheap and many people own one.

The only way I can see Project M becoming more than what it currently is would be if Smash 4 just really, really dropped the ball. Like if it is literally impossible to play it competitively I can see PM becoming a tournament staple on the fact that it is a new smash game, regardless of balance or fun levels.

With competition from Smash 4 though, I doubt this will be a huge replacement. It'll stay a niche game for as long as its around, I'm afraid. The odds of Project M beating out BOTH of the new smash games coming out (3DS, Wii U) in popularity are non-existent and as funny as it is to say... gamecube controllers will hold it back. New blood (actual new blood) will come into smash through the 3DS or Wii U and have no memory of competitive smash with a gamecube controller, making the jump from one game to another even harder.
 

Juushichi

sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Messages
5,518
Location
Columbus, Ohio
I think OS summed it up pretty well, but 30-man sides have already been broken by P:M only events and it might be likely that this could continue.
 

Shouxiao

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 11, 2013
Messages
213
I really hope it gets bigger. I don't know and doubt this is true but I heard something about SSB4 being mainly about character balance with no new characters. If that is true then that is pointless. The Project M team is not only balancing the game, making everyone viable, making things fast pace, they're taking elements from all 3 current Smash games and putting them into one.
 

Rat

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 20, 2005
Messages
1,870
Location
Chicago
Dude this post is gonna make me cry. WELL SAID!! I couldn't agree more!! I wish there was more people like you around Chicago.
Wavedash Wednesdays - Oak Park
http://smashboards.com/threads/wavedash-wednesday-april-17th-2013-oak-park-il.334381/
Kirkgo's Tournaments - College of Dupage, Glen Ellyn
http://smashboards.com/threads/kirkgos-pancake-kittens-april-6th-2013-glen-ellyn-il.329986/

Chicagoland Melee FB Group
https://www.facebook.com/groups/126804630735563/

We're here - come and play.
 

JbrockPony

Smash Apprentice
Joined
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123
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Gerudo Valley , Chicago
NNID
JbrockPony

geno

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 22, 2013
Messages
111
Location
Charleston, SC
P:M has already overtaken Melee's place in my heart. Every one I've shown it to has loved it and feels the same way. I love being able to play as any character and have fun with the totally unique strategies and play styles they have. Going back to Melee, the only thing I actually like more is how Falco plays.

As for how popular it will get, I think it will get bigger and bigger as it continues to develop. And when smash 4 comes out, the PMBR will have a whole new task on their hands, Hahaha!
 

EpixAura

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Messages
474
Location
Greenville, NC
Sadly, overswarm makes a good point. Still, Melee overtakes Brawl as a main event in quite a few smash tournaments, so if P:M can catch a bug break before SSB4 comes out, there's a chance it could snag another good chunk of the Melee/Brawl fanbase.
With enough luck, it could probably be what Melee is to Brawl, but this time, the community will be slightly more prepared for whatever happens next.
Hopefully.
 

Paradoxium

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 7, 2012
Messages
3,019
Location
New Sand Fall
Hopefully the transition from melee to p:m will be as smooth as well oiled machine. If that's the case then I suspect the community will at least reach the level as it was back before brawl.
 

Rat

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 20, 2005
Messages
1,870
Location
Chicago
I have a lot of faith in the project. Especially in the PMBR. =)

1 - PMBR Wizards
For those of you that don't know there are wizards in the PMBR who regularly perform computerized magic to make this game better.

2 - PMBR Artist types
Their wonderful madness has already produced such gems as Purple Marth.

3 - PMBR Designers/Coders
They have Cmart! That's really more than enough and not entirely fair to everyone else.

4 - PMBR Testers
One of their testers is a Professor of Mathematics! How do you get better than that?! Oh wait, I forgot. They've got testers in Neurobiology. Instead of making the world a better place they're making PM a better game. (Ok that's a bit over the top, but you should get the point.)
 

Professor Pro

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 30, 2007
Messages
10,261
Location
England, South London
4 - PMBR Testers
One of their testers is a Professor of Mathematics! How do you get better than that?! Oh wait, I forgot. They've got testers in Neurobiology. Instead of making the world a better place they're making PM a better game. (Ok that's a bit over the top, but you should get the point.)
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
Joined
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Messages
26,560
well, this would make it happen

nintendo would save tons of money

they can take the game, make a bunch of new dumb stages, add new items, etc
Not so sure on the logic of paying Nintendo to release Project M officially.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
i think it'll get more popular when there's a final product so it can be promoted harder.

the fact is, the game is fun. that's something that brawl haters, new players, and tired melee vets are looking for. it's just better to play than the alternatives and it's free. if you put it out there, the game will figuratively sell itself.
 

GP&B

Ike 'n' Ike
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MetalDude
Final release is definitely a big point. Too many damn Kirby and Samus players I know that can't quite get into it at the time.
 

Sixth-Sense

Smash Ace
Joined
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Messages
689
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San Francisco, Venezuela (not the famous one)
I personally think that PM will be much much much better than melee, i love melee to death, hell i haven't been able to play anything else other than that (and PM) in like a year. PM is popular but i think it needs to be finished to be able to get to its apex in the smash community. i truly doubt that smash 4 is gonna make any real impact other than get new casual players (as always) people that have been with the community now what playing on a serious level is like. For now i'm just waiting for PM to feel as fast and fluid as melee, when that happens my melee disc is probably never gonna see daylight again, i will loyaly play PM everyday just as i have done with melee.
much love to the PM team, and please remember, if you make it feel like melee in the next demo you can bet your friends mom that melee lovers that have still not completely embraced PM (i'm one of them) will switch over, since its the same thing, and i'm not losing muscle memory or reaction time
 

Planet Piss

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 22, 2008
Messages
233
Location
Meridian, ID
De-facto retirees from my community are beginning to care about Smash again now that Project M's legit. No amount of coaxing could bring our Smashfest turnouts above five-six players even a year ago, but with the newly generated Project M hype, people care again and turnouts for monthlies are generally 20 players which is impressive for an isolated community such as mine. This game is going places I tell ya hwat.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
idk what happened to samus or kirby either, they were fantastic when the game had them in.
 

Shadic

Alakadoof?
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Shadoof
Pretty sure Samus would have felt absolutely awful the last time you played her.

Like, completely awful.
 

Shouxiao

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 11, 2013
Messages
213
Well there isn't many characters to go and the stages are awesome. When PM is finish we shall see growth hopefully.
 

iode

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 18, 2010
Messages
44
Location
New Jersey
idk what happened to samus or kirby either, they were fantastic when the game had them in.
If you want to know how Kirby plays, go play Subspace Emissary. Right in the beginning after you beat Kirby, you can select him and play as him. He has L cancelling and stuff, so he's not broken perse. I guess the PMBR just didn't want to stick him on the roster until they've had a close look at him and tweaked him to fit into the lineup.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
I'd be interested to see how Brawl Meta Knight does just being put into the game as-is. At the very least it'd be fun to beat up on him. :B
 

Doctor X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 1, 2004
Messages
1,397
Location
Cincinnati, OH
Attendance for something like this might help:

http://www.smashboards.com/threads/335594/

:)

Also I'd like to add my thoughts on Project M's popularity.. You'd be surprised how many casuals there are out there that did not like Brawl. Floatiness is boring not just for competitive players. Many smash fans who started with Melee do actually agree, even if they aren't the type to turn off items and practice l-cancels.

If nothing else I see promoting it as a message to Nintendo and developers like them: There is a very passionate community that your design methods have left in the cold. They cannot ignore Project M and still maintain that they care about the hardcore gamer. My hope is that this will influence decisions made for Smash 4 in some way, though if not? Whatever. We'll just keep playing Project M, which isn't such a bad thing after all.
 
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