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How Popular Do You Think Project M Shall Get?

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Shouxiao

Smash Journeyman
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Apr 11, 2013
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Attendance for something like this might help:

http://www.smashboards.com/threads/335594/

:)

Also I'd like to add my thoughts on Project M's popularity.. You'd be surprised how many casuals there are out there that did not like Brawl. Floatiness is boring not just for competitive players. Many smash fans who started with Melee do actually agree, even if they aren't the type to turn off items and practice l-cancels.

If nothing else I see promoting it as a message to Nintendo and developers like them: There is a very passionate community that your design methods have left in the cold. They cannot ignore Project M and still maintain that they care about the hardcore gamer. My hope is that this will influence decisions made for Smash 4 in some way, though if not? Whatever. We'll just keep playing Project M, which isn't such a bad thing after all.
I don't hate Brawl. I still play it with casual friends but when I want to get serious I play Project M with friends.
 

Mew2King

King of the Mews
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Guys, do you know the project M designers or artists? I would like to talk to some of the best of each. Reason - I'm on 2 game projects. a 2d platformer with Shephard, and a melee-esque fighter like melee.

send me a message if you're either interested yourself, or know anyone that is
the melee-one is being done in unity, it's called Air Dash Online
the 2d platformer me and shephard are still making atm. It'll be similar to mega man zero, but we're trying to upgrade the stage design and movement/moveset to be like a marth/falcon fusion. We've been talking about it for months and Shep's been making great progress on the programming of it.

please contact me!
 

Mew2King

King of the Mews
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I never toyed around with project M online or any forums and I don't know who are the best people to reach even if i did. I just play the game a lot at tournaments it is at. The best strat is to ask the public and get feedback and anyone who reads it can PM me. Can you link me to the best areas I can post into?
 

Shouxiao

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
213
I never toyed around with project M online or any forums and I don't know who are the best people to reach even if i did. I just play the game a lot at tournaments it is at. The best strat is to ask the public and get feedback and anyone who reads it can PM me. Can you link me to the best areas I can post into?
Not sure. My best guess would be the actual ProjectM site, Allisbrawl, or this section of the forums.
 

JacopeX

Smash Apprentice
Joined
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156
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I played Samus in the early build of Project M.

I found her zoning pretty broken in my opinion, especially in big stages. And no, she did not feel bad at all. she felt the way I expected her to through the conversion/changes of game mechanics.
 

leelue

Smash Lord
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I never toyed around with project M online or any forums and I don't know who are the best people to reach even if i did. I just play the game a lot at tournaments it is at. The best strat is to ask the public and get feedback and anyone who reads it can PM me. Can you link me to the best areas I can post into?
It's kinda hilarious since you were talking to dantarion
#dontcareaboutthegame
 

Xacius

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 20, 2011
Messages
106
They need to fix the elements of the engine that are preventing the current melee population from transitioning. I think a large part of the problem is that many dedicated melee players don't have Wii's and thus rely on their Gamecubes.
 

traffic.

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Seriously, the biggest complaints I've heard from melee players is related to 1 jumpsquat frame and not being able to autopilot. If you've ever played another game before, you'd be shamed and embarrassed for those johns. I'm convinced at this point that Melee has the highest population of autism out of any game. No coping mechanisms at all.

Not having a wii is totally understandable to me, but barring resident evil 4 i feel the same way about the gamecube.
 

traffic.

Smash Journeyman
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wiis can be modded to pre-load to hacked menus and operate with cube trollers removing the need for IR bars, etc. If the wii wasn't as hackable it wouldn't be worth having one at all.
 

SpiderMad

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Seriously, the biggest complaints I've heard from melee players is related to 1 jumpsquat frame and not being able to autopilot. If you've ever played another game before, you'd be shamed and embarrassed for those johns. I'm convinced at this point that Melee has the highest population of autism out of any game. No coping mechanisms at all.
I hope they don't restore that to Melee's 1 frame early check for jump button release to determine SH: making it back to the hard to comprehend difficulty for such a simple mechanic for 1/4th of the cast with the shortest jump squat frames.
 

Vashimus

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Wait, what about jump squats is different? It's a frame easier for the game to register a shorthop, or jump squats are just 1 frame longer? Me confused.
 

standardtoaster

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In melee, you had to release the jump button before the last frame of jumpstart in order to shorthop. This effectively made 3 frame jumpers require a 2 frame input window in order to shorthop. Brawl does the check one frame later than melee. This effectively makes 3 frame jumpers require a 3 frame input window in order to shorthop.
 

Kink-Link5

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I hope they don't restore that to Melee's 1 frame early check for jump button release to determine SH: making it back to the hard to comprehend difficulty for such a simple mechanic for 1/4th of the cast with the shortest jump squat frames.
It isn't likely. Unlike other Melee/Brawl attributes, something that has strictly better input recognition isn't something that's going to be changed to its Melee form. Anything that effects player-to-player interaction is arguable on both sides, but among the few aspects that aren't interaction-based, it is always clear which is the better of the two.

L-canceling effects the techfail window and has marginally different timings for if the move hits or not. In comparison, having shorthops last the same amount of frames and them having better input recognition is never going to be something retroactively changed "because melee."

If you ask "Does this change the way the player interacts with the other player by its inclusion/removal" and the answer is no, it's one of those things where it's clear which is better.

Sensitivity is probably the only exception, since different players have different thresholds for something feeling too sensitive or too hard. Some might prefer Brawl's tilt vs smash Side B recognition, but I find it makes it almost impossible to get a tilt one without being super careful.
 

SpiderMad

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That's logic Kink; no good. It's majority opinion, it can be based on tradition or anything. When things are too easy for people who mindlessly practice them, and they want others too as well, they make it harder. They made Lucas' DACUS require a stricter frame timing, there's nothing different from 2.1 to 2.5 other than it's now harder. People like Fly Amanita are good players, but they hold their own feelings to be reasonable when they say Fox's SH is "very easy" just like Master WGS said for Lucas' DACUS. The only thing is one is much more essential than the other for people to be able to perform.
 

XalchemistX

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I really hope that Project M becomes so popular that Sakurai recognizes it and hires the people working on project m for the next smash bros
 

PhantasyStar

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I'd love to see Project M being an internet success and have Brawl and Melee players come as one...
If IGN continued to hype us up and places like Kotaku posting about us I think the game would have a decent community honestly...(Not overly large by any means but just decent).
 

JacopeX

Smash Apprentice
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Oh man, here comes the passion....

It's my sincerest hope that PM really kicks into gear and replaces Melee sometime in the future, maybe even the near future. You could argue that PM is already kicked into gear, if so, then I would want PM kicked into overdrive. Not just content with replacing Melee and getting the carryover from Melee's current player-base, but even going so far as to garner Brawl faithfuls and new blood from around the world.

Why would I think this? Because I really, REALLY believe that PM, even in its current unfinished state, is a better game than Melee. Now, before I get start getting hundreds of replies bashing me from all sides, hear me out - Melee is a wonderful game, in fact, it was really the game that kicked the community in the balls and said, "look, this is what a fresh genre of competitive fighting game looks like, and this is what you can do, and this is how hype it can get." Unfortunately, the thing with Melee is that it was never designed to be competitive, and that's a point that's worth reiterating time and time again. The idea of a game created on the principles of competitive Melee, governed by a team of developers and players that love and understand the game intimately enough, and sitting on top of an engine that makes it all possible, is really a holy grail combination that can make real the next step in smash's evolution.

Now, I'm not here to dismiss Melee completely, the game itself deserves a lot of respect in its legacy and what it has taught all of us; I'm not here to just kick an old game while it's down. What I am going to do is highlight a few major flaws that, in my opinion, is the driving force for why PM is better than Melee. Melee's best parts are infallible, which is exactly why PM exists, but in the same way, its flaws are glaring, which is also exactly why PM should exist.

1. This is the most important point to drive home. Melee's end-to-end tier list is too large. What do I mean by this? No, Melee doesn't have too many characters. What I mean is that the "power" gap between the top 5 characters in the game and the bottom 5 characters is just too large. This is easily summed up by a single word known as "imbalanced". Many of you might say, "Man iode, it's terribly difficult to create a fighting game that's perfectly balanced, even for fighting games that were designed from the ground up by developers to be balanced, why all the hate for Melee?" Well, first off, I wouldn't love PM so much if I hated Melee, and secondly, that's the sheer and utter beauty of PM - it CAN be balanced.
Consider this scenario to highlight just how imbalanced Melee can be.
The top 5 players in the world obviously have poured hundreds if not thousands of hours into this game. They have perfected their craft. They have perfected their Falco, their Fox, their Sheik, their Marth, their Puff, and their Peach. And as such, they have reaped the rewards. More than once, they have walked out of a major with heads held high, fistful of cash, glory in hand. First place, second place, or maybe third place. Now let's change perspectives a little, away from the limelight of the best of the best, let's consider the DK mains, the Roy mains, the Link mains, the Pichu mains, the Yoshi mains, and even the Falcon mains... this list goes on and on. What if they too, poured hundreds if not thousands of hours into the game as well? What if they too, also want the win just as badly as the top 5 players? What if they too, have perfected their craft with just as much grit and passion as any of the top players? After all, they have single handedly carried nearly the entire metagame of their character on their backs. Their controller stick is just as worn out as everyone else's. Now, I'm not going to name any names, but names should pop up in your mind almost instantly. Don't they also deserve a shot at the top, a place in the spotlight, while still playing a character they have every right to use? Does hard work, blood, and sweat not equate even a chance? Melee, in its current state, asks this question of these players, "Do you want to keep playing your low tier or do you want to break the top 5 at a national?" Just the fact that Melee forces players to answer that question, is a huge flaw in and of itself. It's upsetting when hard work and talent may not necessarily equate itself to higher placement just because of a character choice.
Before you tell me that at high level, it's player skill that determines match outcomes and character johns are just excuses, play this scenario in your mind first - a Melee match between the world's best Bowser versus the world's best Fox. What happens? You're forced to automatically assuming that that Fox will win. Mindsets like that shouldn't happen. It means you're already compensating for the characters' tier list when deciding the outcome of the match. What if the Bowser main has put in double, no triple, the hours of the Fox main? Yet, the outcome appears to be the same, time and time again. This is the current state of Melee, and it cannot be changed. But my oh my, is PM such an elegant solution for such a dire issue
OR

Just play SDR. :)

If only it were as easy to install as Project M. :\ but I totally agree with this. Character viability is the reason why I quit Melee just after a year and a half of playing it and moved on to SDR. The gap between the characters in the game is extremely ground breaking and the match ups are at the point where they have been dissected for over a decade that even the best player with a low tier character struggles against a moderate player that uses a counterpick character that is usually top tier. It gets pretty boring. I mean we saw a high mid tier characters make it Top 8 (Dr Mario, Pikachu), but the rest are just playing heroes and expected to just fall short. Why else do you think all these low tier heroes have pocket high tier characters? It becomes a whole different story when prize money is involved and stakes are high. In tournaments, you mostly play to win.

If only:

SDR replaces Melee
PM replaces Brawl

:)
 

MVP

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 24, 2012
Messages
641
In melee, you had to release the jump button before the last frame of jumpstart in order to shorthop. This effectively made 3 frame jumpers require a 2 frame input window in order to shorthop. Brawl does the check one frame later than melee. This effectively makes 3 frame jumpers require a 3 frame input window in order to shorthop.
the best example is how easy it is to shorthop with fox in PM than melee
 

CyberZixx

Smash Lord
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Messages
1,189
When I go back to Melee the hardest thing to adjust to is the different window for short hops. Messes with my play a ton. I find Project M more fun to control than Melee overall, feels more intuitive and smoother.
 

9bit_alt

Banned via Warnings
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When I go back to Melee the hardest thing to adjust to is the different window for short hops. Messes with my play a ton. I find Project M more fun to control than Melee overall, feels more intuitive and smoother.
I feel the same way, except with Fox. Feels better in Melee to me.

Though, I can hardly function without my custom controls at this point. The Z button is a terrible button and Nintendo should feel bad.
 

DrinkingFood

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I think one of the reasons that despite being so close that people still even notice a difference between the two isn't even in-game; it's the controller vibrations. They are a lot more aggressive and frequent in P:M whereas in melee they are more subtle and less frequent. So like the same thing in P:M could ACTUALLY feel more rough than in melee, regardless of being the same otherwise...
Also I'm still pretty sure that 1 frame physics delay prevents you from landing during the air dodge for an extra frame so that bugs people too, including me.

The Z button is a terrible button and Nintendo should feel bad.
Pointer-finger-on-Z-middle-finger-on-R masterrace
 

SpiderMad

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Also I'm still pretty sure that 1 frame physics delay prevents you from landing during the air dodge for an extra frame so that bugs people too, including me./quote]
The one they removed or the weird jump physics one or what?

Does P:M still have Brawl landing detection for when a characters is in hit-stun?
 

DrinkingFood

Smash Hero
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They never removed the one-frame momentum delay, they only removed the random 0-2 frame input delay. The one I'm talking about affects jumps, air dodges, and I think knockback or anything that applies momentum to your character. They talk about it from time to time, it's in their currently known issues section. The jump physics thing I THINK you're talking about might be one of the stage collision detection issues, if you mean the one that causes strangely short jumps and wiggling when you slow it down. IIRC they haven't fixed all of the SCD issues but I don't know the details on that TBH. I don't even really know what they fixed, much less what's left not working properly.
 

SpiderMad

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In 2.1 if someone was in hit-stun, they will land sooner (Brawl landing detection, The melee landing detection fix somehow couldn't effect character's in hit-stun)

GuruKid made me aware of how much SCD issues Diddy specifically has though with his jumps, his back jump is so full of it they inserted momentum to offset it to be more normal and I almost kind of like the weirdness of it and might miss it once they get it to work properly.
 

\Apples

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Jan 3, 2013
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Seriously, the biggest complaints I've heard from melee players is related to 1 jumpsquat frame and not being able to autopilot. If you've ever played another game before, you'd be shamed and embarrassed for those johns. I'm convinced at this point that Melee has the highest population of autism out of any game. No coping mechanisms at all.
I know this was a while back but I think for some, this is part of it. Some of my closest friends who I've been playing Melee with since like '06 just can't get over certain changes made in Project: M compared to Melee. I think they're just stuck in their ways and don't embrace change. The common complaints are the easiest to guess. (Snake's everything, Sonic's everything, Lucario's OHC, Ness' PK Fire popping on shields, Ganon's Flame Choke, etc) In almost all cases, when asked to provide a legit argument for their disdain, I just hear johns. "Stupid character."

All I hear from a lot of Melee vets are adaptability johns. Some just see these mechanics as a waste of time, unfortunately.
 
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