How is Ike's performance in the elements of Brawl?

[DRaGZ]

Okay first off, please read this:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199108

Second of all, the reason I am posting this here is because I don't have set-out summaries of Ike's performance in the elements of Brawl. So, I was wondering if you guys could do it, considering how you guys are the authorities on your own character.

Use this thread to discuss it, and then please post your results in the "Element of Brawl" thread linked above, using this format:

ZONING

• On the ground
• In the air
• Off-stage

SPACING

• Extreme long distance
• Long distance
• Medium distance
• Short distance

KILLING

• Killing power
• Gimping potential

Thanks a bunch.

 

[Wyvern-x]

On the ground:He has his amazing jab combo and its slew of options and followups. All of his attacks have plenty of range and knockback. Their damage output makes up for the fact they don't chain asides from the jab. Rating Above Average

In the air:All of Ike's aerials have massive hitboxes with plenty of K.O potential. Nair, dair, and uair have lingering hitboxes. Most of his aerials either autocancel or have IASA frames. They do however have a bit of startup lag. Rating: Average

Offstage:Not much to say here. Ike can get at most 2 aerials and aether when offstage without SDing. Though if he lands a hit offstage chances are your gonna get hit off screen. Rating: Below Average

Spacing

Extreme Long Distance:Ike doesn't like camping. Rating: Uncomfortable

Long Distance:Easier for Ike to get in close against his opponent. Rating:Bearable

Medium Distance:Probably Ike's most comfortable area in a match. He can abuse his massive range in this area. Ike may be able to get away with some laggy attacks in this zone. Rating: Comfortable

Short Distance:Ike does very well here. He will have to stick to his faster attacks such as utilts, jabs and nairs when this close. Jabbing usually gives Ike breathing room if the opponent gets all over Ike. Bearable

Killing Power:Around top 3 most killing potential in the game. Rating: Amazing

Gimping Potential: He can't do much offstage, but he does have good options. Ike normally doesn't gimp he just outright kills you. Rating: Below Average

 

[metroid1117]

(Response in red font)

On the ground:He has his amazing jab combo and its slew of options and followups. All of his attacks have plenty of range and knockback. Their damage output makes up for the fact they don't chain asides from the jab. Rating Amazing

Except for Ike's jab, the rest of his ground game is simply too slow to be considered "Amazing." Even Falco, with his chain-grab and lasers, only received an "Above average."

In the air:All of Ike's aerials have massive hitboxes with plenty of K.O potential. Nair, dair, and uair have lingering hitboxes. Most of his aerials either autocancel or have IASA frames. They do however have a bit of startup lag. Rating: Average

You forgot to mention that NAir is an excellent chain-starter, FAir is a great spacing tool, and that BAir is amazing out of shield against people who attack from behind.

Offstage:Not much to say here. Ike can get at most 2 aerials and aether when offstage without SDing. Though if he lands a hit offstage chances are your gonna get hit off screen. Rating: Below Average

Spacing

Extreme Long Distance:Ike doesn't like camping. Rating: Uncomfortable

Long Distance:Easier for Ike to get in close against his opponent. Rating:Bearable

The same is the case for Ganondorf, but he was still marked as "Uncomfortable."

Medium Distancerobably Ike's most comfortable area in a match. He can abuse his massive range in this area. Ike may be able to get away with some laggy attacks in this zone. Rating: Comfortable

Short Distance:Ike does very well here. He will have to stick to his faster attacks such as utilts, jabs and nairs when this close. Jabbing usually gives Ike breathing room if the opponent gets all over Ike. Comfortable

Jab is his only good close-range move; he doesn't have enough options to be truly comfortable. Like Wolf, who received a rating of "Bearable," Ike can get caught in chains of attacks (longer than most, since he doesn't have a good combo-breaking move in the air) and get chain-thrown.

Killing Power:Around top 3 most killing potential in the game. Rating: Amazing

Ganondorf can also kill off the sides at ridiculously low %s compared to the rest of the cast, but like Ike, he has difficulty landing that killing blow so he earned an "Above average."

Gimping Potential: He can't do much offstage, but he does have good options. Ike normally doesn't gimp he just outright kills you. Rating: Below Average

Ike can gimp, just not as well as other characters.

These are my opinions:

ZONING
a) On the ground: Ike has one of the best jab combos in the game; along with the full combo doing around 15% when fresh, the single jab or double jab sets up for a multitude of follow-ups, most commonly grab but other attacks such as UTilt are also possible. He can use Quick Draw to approach opponents from afar, but seasoned players will cut off this option by standing inside his range with a shield. Ike's UTilt and FTilt have great range and (in the case of FTilt) power and DTilt can grant you the occasional spike, but they all have horrendous start-up lag and reasonable ending lag. Ike's FSmash is simply horrendous in terms of starting time, but his USmash partially makes up (partial for it's starting lag) for it with it's amazing hitbox and power. Overall, Ike's game, while devastating at close range but slow at mid-range and above, seems to be (compared to the examples on the original thread) average.

b) In the air:Ike's NAir is simply amazing, having pretty good range, covering his entire body, setting up for follow-up attacks, and having little lag. FAir is one of the best aerial zoning tools in the game, being the longest FAir in the game and having IASA frames during landing lag so that it is not as slow as people unfamiliar with Ike would imagine. BAir is quite fast and can kill; it is an excellent counter-attack out of shield against anyone who tries to attack you from behind. DAir is a powerful spike (but has bad wind-down lag) and UAir is extremely powerful, killing grounded opponents without DI at the same % as his USmash and stays out for an exceedingly long while (the hitbox starts behind Ike's head, becomes visible as it travels to the front, and then spins behind him again). Regardless of these traits, his landing lag (save for NAir) is very slow; while all his moves have IASA frames during landing lag, it is still very punishable if an aerial attack is missed and spacing is off; therefore, I believe his air game is above average.

c) Off-stage Regardless of what people think, Ike has limited gimping potential. Walk-off FAir or DAir can really screw some recoveries over (Ganondorf, Link, etc.), but both can be survivable with proper DI (except if DAir spikes, then it's an almost guaranteed kill). DAir is an amazing spiking tool, having a decent start-up time but a very long spiking hitbox. At higher %s, UAir is a viable option if it is fresh; hardly anyone expects an Ike to kill with UAir offstage. Reverse Aether can catch people coming from above, but it's applications are limited. When recovering, Ike is extremely vulnerable; Quick Draw is easily gimped and Aether can either be interrupted because of Ike's lack of auto-sweetspotting or edgehogged. With limited gimping options and below-average recovery, Ike seems to be below average.

SPACING
Extreme long distance: No projectile counter-camp with and QD can be interrupted by projectiles. Uncomfortable.
Long distance: Same as above; uncomfortable.
Medium distance: Ike's FAir is outstanding here; a lot of characters will be hard-pressed to punish an Ike spacing FAirs and abusing IASA frames with shields and jabs. His UTilt can also shut-down some aerial approaches like a FAir'ing Jigglypuff or a BAir'ing Wolf. Comfortable.
Short distance: Jab and NAir are godsends here, but that's about it; the rest of Ike's moves are just too slow. Bearable.

Killing Power: Ike excels at this. He kills at ridiculously low %s with his USmash, FTilt, BAir, UAir, and can catch people off-guard with FAir. However, getting the kill can be difficult because of his speed, which puts him only at above average.
Gimping potential: As discussed earlier, while Ike has options they are not very good options (except for DAir). Below average.

 

[Wyvern-x]

Snake and D3 both got averages for aerials. What makes Ike's better than theirs?

You also forget that Ike has better running and aerial speed than Ganondorf allowing him to get in closer faster. Ike also has crapload of range more than Ganon making it easier to land a killing blow.

 

[XACE-K]

On the Ground: The best part of Ike's ground game is his AAA combo. All his other moves are too laggy but great for killing. His grab game sucks but you can combo with them or perform Ike's infinite.

In the Air: Ike has a good air game. F-air has the best range out of all aerials in the game. B-air is his fastest move and can kill. N-air can combo, D-air can spike and U-air is a surprise move that you won't see being used a lot like F-air but it's really good.

Off-Stage: Ike can perform off-stage, recovering without SDing is the problem. You can run-off all his aerials IF you have c-stick on attack and not smash. You can perform a reverse Aether to spike your opponent and grab the ledge when you're going down.

Extreme Long Range: The only long range thing Ike has is his fully charged QD. Even with that, he still sucks.

Long Range: See above but QD doesn't have to be fully charged.

Medium Distance: Ike will probably use all his moves with good range (F-air, F-tilt, etc) for this.

Short Distance: Ike does great in this with his AAA, jab cancel and other things.

Killing Power: It's Ike. Nuff said.

Gimping Power: As easy as Ike can be gimped, he can gimp you just as well. He has the most spikes in the game so that helps him.

I don't know what to say for each category like Average, Bearable, etc.

 

[doom dragon 105]

Ike isn't amazing at anything, -_- I'll post my opinion later

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'll throw my 2 cents into the pot...

ZONING
On the ground AAA combo combined with crouch canceling is more then able to keep people out of his face. One of the, if not the best AAA combo in the game if counting CCing. However, once they get out of AAA range, it starts to get more tricky for Ike. Utilt has the speed needed, but not the horizontal range. Ftilt has the power and horizontal range, but is a bit too slow in some cases. Dtilt doesn't have it short of spiking. Dash attack isn't as bad as some attacks speed wise, but it telegraphs when it's coming out, and doesn't work if the opponent is too close. Hyphen Smashing can work, but if it doesn't hit, Ike will get punished. Dsmash works, but it has about the same range as AAA combo. Fsmash is lol for spacing except for the occasional one out of shield. Quick Draw works for catching up to an opponent after knocking them far away, but for escaping or attacking directly, it's too slow. For slower attacks with long range, Counter can and will work, but often has better choices. His grab game is good against a wall, but when not against a wall, it has few uses. Eruption is situational at best. Overall: Above Average, mainly due to AAA combo and it's CC opportunities to get slightly slower attacks to connect

In the air Without a doubt Ike is in the top third here, if not top quarter. Nair auto-cancels on landing, covers 270 degrees around him, lingering hitboxes and knocks opponents upwards for easy chain of attacks at low %s. Fair is the aerial move with the most horizontal range, covers a large area above and in front of him as it comes down, long lingering hitboxes, IASA frames, and power. If an Ike is SHFairing, without a projectile, you aren't hitting him. Bair comes out on frame 8, very strong, little lag, but shortest range out of his air game. Dair is a powerful, large spike, with a semi-sex kick effect that after the spiking time period, getting hit by Dair will sent you flying upwards. I believe it has some IASA frames when SH'd, but not as much as Fair. Uair is a killer move that is extremely powerful. Have fun airdodging it. It lacks horizontal range however, and has the most landing lag. Overall: Above Average

Off-stage Ike begins to faulted here. He might be able to get Fair or Dair off here before needing to aether, unless he was knocked way high up, which case he can get two off. When aethering, he can spike someone attempting to gimp him, which does help a fair bit. But thats almost all he has here. He can QD to recover, but thats very rare for Ike to do so. Overall: Below average

SPACING
Extreme long distance We have an easier time then say Ganondorf, but it's still bad. Overall: Uncomfortable
Long distance See above. Overall: Uncomfortable
Medium distance Once Fair comes into play, Ike is right back into the ballgame. Ftilt also works here, Hyphen Smashes work, SHNairs to finish closing the gap, etc. This is Ike's ideal KOing distanceOverall: Comfortable
Short distance Now Ike can do some real % damage, as they are now in AAA combo range. By bouncing them back and forth between Short Distance and Medium Distance, Ike can quickly rack up damage and bring them into KOing range. However, he won't be able to pull nearly as many KOing moves here Overall: Bearable

KILLING
Killing power It's flipping Ike. His Utilt and Ftilt almost have as much KOing power as Snake's. And then throw in his amazingly strong smashes, his 4 spikes, the fact anything other then his throws are kill moves, Ike is simply a powerhouse. Overall: Amazing, seeing that we are talking sololy about killing power, not killing speed.
Gimping potential Unlike what some silly, uneducated character boards think: Ike can gimp. Walk off Fairs and Dairs are easy to do, amazingly strong, and Ike is more then able to recover from them as long as he wasn't stupid and used his second jump to get off of the stage. Vertical wise, Ike has a wide area he can gimp in. Horizontal wise however, is a lot more limited. Overall: Below Average

 

[metroid1117]

Snake and D3 both got averages for aerials. What makes Ike's better than theirs?

You also forget that Ike has better running and aerial speed than Ganondorf allowing him to get in closer faster. Ike also has crapload of range more than Ganon making it easier to land a killing blow.

D3 got "Above Average" in the original thread.

According to the original thread, Snake got "Average" because "his other aerials [besides NAir and DAir] are just predictable enough to make them punishable." Personally, I disagree with the part on NAir and DAir being amazing; while they both suck you in for a powerful killing blow, you can SDI out of both; it's not that hard, as proven by Overswarm's video. FAir is too slow to be that dangerous, but UAir and BAir (especially BAir) are both fast and frighteningly powerful. If you can SDI properly, you should only have to worry about UAir or BAir; this, in my eyes, gives Snake an Average.

Ike's air game is better because NAir can set up for combos (front NAir -> UTilt/jab, reverse NAir -> BAir) and has very little landing lag (but horrendous ending lag in the air); FAir outranges every move except projectiles, Samus and Link's ZAir, and ZSS's side+B and has very noticeable IASA frames on landing lag (but is still punishable by fast characters like Fox, MK, Falcon, and Sonic); BAir is extremely quick to come out, has great power, has IASA frames on landing lag, and auto-cancels when you use it right out of a short-hop (the only bad thing here is it's limited vertical range); DAir has the longest spike hitbox in the game (second only to ZSS's up+B), the second hitbox that sends people up is actually fairly powerful when fresh, and it also has IASA frames during landing lag; and UAir is extremely powerful (kills grounded opponents at the same % as USmash without DI), the hibox stays out for a VERY long time (the fact that it hits behind him twice throws off a lot of airdodgers), and it also has IASA frames on landing lag. The bottom line when comparing Snake's aerials to Ike's aerials is that (1) all of Ike's aerials can be used to kill (with the exception of NAir, which is a setup move) and (2) none of Ike's aerials can be SDI'd out of. Snake's NAir and DAir are useless against an opponent who knows how to SDI and FAir is too slow to rely on, so that only leaves UAir and BAir as viable attacks.

According to the thread, the spacing aspect is to determine what options the character has, not how easy or hard it is to approach. Ike can't do anything from long distance except hope for a surprise QD (a tapped QD doesn't even cover 1/2 of FD anyway); while that is much faster than Ganon's down+B, it is still easily stopped by a projectile or a close-up by the opponent followed by a shield. Therefore, at this distance, both are uncomfortable.

Hmm... this is a valid point. Also, seeing how Falco was rated "Above Average," I don't see how Ike can't be considered "Amazing" at killing.

AAA combo combined with crouch canceling is more then able to keep people out of his face. One of the, if not the best AAA combo in the game if counting CCing

It's not a big mistake, but you're mistaking crouch canceling with jab canceling. Crouch Canceling is a Melee technique in which you crouch before taking a hit in order to reduce hitstun and knockback, allowing for counter-attacks (for example, ICs crouch during a Sheik's FTilt so that they can get the free grab). In Brawl, there is no crouch canceling.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Okay first off, please read this:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199108

Second of all, the reason I am posting this here is because I don't have set-out summaries of Ike's performance in the elements of Brawl. So, I was wondering if you guys could do it, considering how you guys are the authorities on your own character.

Use this thread to discuss it, and then please post your results in the "Element of Brawl" thread linked above, using this format:

ZONING

• On the ground:I actually think Ike does above average on this as well. His jab combo Probably builds up more damage than Falco's Chain grabs per stock and falco's lasers are short hopped most of the time so there goes that argument. Ike's jab combo is pretty much the best in the game and it sets up kill moves and spikes you can ask ryko about that. It also only takes on mind game/ prediction/ crapy recovery to land a kill under 50% on like 75% of the cast. His grab game isn't super good but a grab release leads into a jab combo or grab if you tech chase right. I actually think it leads into a jab combo 100% of the time on mario because my friend hasn't shielded it yet.Above Average.
• In the air: this one I pretty much agree with everyone. Great spacing, killers, lingering hit boxes, and combos. Only problem is the start up lag on Fair. Above Average
• Off-stage: very below average I actually think its horrible. Ike has a few things to edge guard with but they all put him at some sort of danger. If he ever gets into a WoP then theres no way he can get out. Of course piratically every hit he lands off the stage will kill you. Below average / horrible

SPACING

• Extreme long distance: I'm going to go ahead and say this is bearable because this is brawl we are talking about. At this distance everything can be PSed and you don't have much to worry about. Bearable
• Long distance: This is actually worse IMO. Still far enough to be spammed at and close enough to be punished if you actually do miss shielding one. Uncomfortable
• Medium distance: Pretty much what has been said before. With Ike's spacing this is the best place to be trying to land kills from. Comfortable
• Short distance: With his jab combo Ike pretty much has everything he needs here. Nair and Bair are great defensive moves at this range as well. Your also in grab range which can be used to get your opponent back into medium range. Comfortable

KILLING

• Killing power: This is probably worded wrong like nintendofreak pointed out but even if you where to compare it as ability its still pretty awesome. Fsmash will kill at the highest 60% and it can still be landed on good people. Even people who are experts on Ike fall for it so don't throw it away and some slow move that your grama can dodge. His range is also amazing and every move can kill when its fresh. The jab combo can set up killing moves if your having trouble landing them. Amazing
• Gimping potential: Well Ike has a few things like run off Fair and Fair and still make it back but A lot of things if you miss can put Ike in a dangers position. Aether spiking is another thing he has but once again it can put him in a vulnerable position if you miss. Below Average.

Thanks a bunch.

Spoiler

10characters.

 

[doom dragon 105]

Yea I agree with ^

 

[metroid1117]

Extreme long distance: I'm going to go ahead and say this is bearable because this is brawl we are talking about. At this distance everything can be PSed and you don't have much to worry about. Bearable

According to this logic then in the original thread Ganon should have a "Bearable" rating as well.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

According to this logic then in the original thread Ganon should have a "Bearable" rating as well.

I think he should but ganon mains don't know how to shield.

edit: uhhh If I had recorded my MM with lee harris I could have shown by 0 to death combo on his ganon that ends with an Fsmash here. I shall never forget what an opportunity I missed.

 

[DRaGZ]

What options does Ike have from extreme long distance other than charging up his forward+B very vulnerably?

Spacing, for the sake of this discussion, is more about options rather than survivability (survivability and effectiveness goes under zoning). For instance, R.O.B. is comfortable because of his projectiles. Snake can also use projectiles plus do a lot of his setup in relative comfort from being harassed for them. And Meta Knight/Sonic do very well here because even though their only option is to approach, they are both absurdly good at it.

At extreme long distance, Ganondorf...can approach, and he's bad at it. Ike...can approach...and he's better at it, but not by that much.

I know, the outlines are anal. But it's for the sake of orderrrr.

 

[SaltyKracka]

I think he should but ganon mains don't know how to shield.

edit: uhhh If I had recorded my MM with lee harris I could have shown by 0 to death combo on his ganon that ends with an Fsmash here. I shall never forget what an opportunity I missed.

Welcome to a beatdown. Oh, and WiFi johns.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Well in my opinion besides choosing MK shielding is the best option in brawl. If you want to count numbers rather than how comfortable someone can be at distances well then I guess he is under average. Might want to clear up a few things but then again I didn't read the whole thread I had just gotten home from work at like 11 and was tired.

I never have a real bad problem approaching though.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Well in my opinion besides choosing MK shielding is the best option in brawl. If you want to count numbers rather than how comfortable someone can be at distances well then I guess he is under average. Might want to clear up a few things but then again I didn't read the whole thread I had just gotten home from work at like 11 and was tired.

I never have a real bad problem approaching though.

Shielding is good, yes. I just don't get why you said Ganon mains don't shield.

 

[doom dragon 105]

I think he should but ganon mains don't know how to shield.

When you play ADHD you will know how Gannon shields lol

 

[Guilhe]

Arturito, grab to jab isn't a true combo, I've tested it on the whole cast with my brother. They can aways powershield.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Well thanks for the info but that leaves it to a 50:50 tech chase of jabing or grabbing. Except on bowser who can jab before you =(.

edit: that ganon shielding thing was joke again because that fight was in my head GrrrrrRRRRGERGreg!!

 

[Ussi]

ZONING

• On the ground Ike's ground game will beat anyone whose ground game lacks range. Above Average
• In the air - I'm an air based fighter usually, so I love Ike's air game. Fair reaches out so far and nair is a great combo starter and aerial shield. Bair is fast and uair is a lingering hitbox that owns air dodging. Dair is the 4th strongest spike and also lingers and hits thru platforms. Above Average
• Off-stage - It's a good day to die eh? Below below average

SPACING

• Extreme long distance - *shoots self* suicide
• Long distance Now we're getting somewhere, just a little longer and we can attack those campers. uncomfortable
• Medium distance - Sweetness, Ike's max range shines here. Comfortable
• Short distance - Jab to GTFO, tech chase, w/e, it owns Comfortable

KILLING

• Killing power ftilt is stronger than A LOT of smashes, strongest ftilt in the game. Utilt is also strong. Dtilt is 2nd strongest move Ike has. Fsmash is ridiculous in getting low % kills. Usmash is AMAZING when charged, (gains 30-40% killing power when fully charged), Jab and dash attack can be used to kill light weights. FABULOUS
• Gimping potential - I believe Ike has an amazing edge guarding game, so many options, walk of fair, uair, bair, dair. Go for the aether spike or dtilt. Eruption is a good challenge. Above average

 

[YagamiLight]

ftilt is stronger than A LOT of smashes, strongest tilt in the game.

Ganondorf's Up Tilt would like a word with you.

 

[Ussi]

I meant ftilt.. Finger slipped, we have the strongest dtilt too