How forward smash made me a better player

[Supermodel From Paris]

What happens when you throw your opponent down or connect with a down tilt?

As many of you guys know, I am not a naturally talented gamer. I have a decent amount of tech skill, and the unique ability to count frames by sight, which is weird, but not unheard of (I hear Mew2King has a similar ability). I love this community and have enjoyed supporting it with findings (some of which work and some that haven't) and little bits of information. I'm the investigator, the think tank. My brain works in a very scientific linear way. I am so exasperatingly unassuming that I am unable to assess my opponents' skill levels, and refused for a long time understand that I do have the capability to read, predict, etc.

From my point of view, reading was an inclusive thing. Every time I threw my opponent, I would attempt to zero in on what they might do and react. The problem with this that we are not clairvoyant.

What does this have to do with forward smash?

Check out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jk2FZlZh0-k at about 34 seconds.

Pikachu's side-b is a dumb move. It should almost never connect on paper and yet in practice it almost always does because Pikachu's other moves are so fast that no one can reasonably expect a move with start-up that slow.

Some of yo know that I recently experimented with the use of ... the uh... inhaling of shibby... in order to increase my ability to read my opponents, which I could not to when... without... shibby. I took someone's advice and re-watched my videos back, and even created a short compilation video available on YouTube if you like to see stupid things. This was a fun project but ultimately showed me that it was possible for me to read my opponents.

What I discovered is that "reading" is a misnomer, because this action that we are taking is not inclusive, it is exclusive. In all of my success using... shibby... I realized that I wasn't watching my opponents and figuring them out psychologically, I was simply asking myself what they were either avoiding or expecting.

The answer in the case of forward smash is actually one in the same: they are both not avoiding and not expecting a forward smash.

So today, I had a small smashfest in which I decided to use forward smash as a 'mindgame button' similar to that of Pikachu's side-b. When I connected a down tilt, I started charging fsmash. Why? Because they aren't avoiding fsmash. They aren't expecting fsmash. Despite being a bad move, fsmash was EXACTLY the right move for this situation. All of these words we throw around like "safe," "Fast," and the like are meaningless. This game isn't about frame data (well sometimes), it's about expectations. The reality is despite some ramblings by Snakeee, there are only a few layers, far less than I thought before.

A while ago I asked when you do when your opponent is launched into the air with a down throw or down tilt. The answer isn't up smash or up air, although both of these moves are very good answers. The answer is you hit them with what they aren't avoiding. That's it. That's all there is to this game.

I feel like I just graduated ****ing middle school.

 

[Zero]

Why didn't you try charging dsmash instead? that **** works

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

You missed the point. This post was typed with caps lock

 

[Zero]

The thing is with mixups is that it is both a long term and short term process. Short term in the context of a single set against another player and long term in the context of all the matches you will ever play with that player. While this isn't exactly neccesary, as Zero Suit Samus is certainly viable at top level play, with low tier characters who have relatively little mixup, it's paramount to keep track of what you did against every player.

Mixup is both about expectation and about conditioning. If your opponent knows what you're going to do, they'll dodge that. The mixup is when you don't do what they're expecting. But if you've conditioned your opponent to treat one option as THE BEST, they will unconsciously keep avoiding it. It's melded into their psychology. It certainly takes a good player to realise, quickly, what's happening against them and to adjust.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Of course expectations come from conditioning (intentional or not).

 

[hippiedude92]

i dont understand any of this lolllll

i hope this isn't because of our laggy wifi games and me randomly running into them

=/

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

What no shut up

 

[LanceStern]

I think this is why MikeHAZE had initial success.

Besides brilliant spacing and what not. You'd oftentimes see players watch his videos and ask "Why did you charge that Up Smash? And better yet... How did it hit?"

I like this topic. Just do what the player isn't avoiding. As long as you are safe I agree but sometimes it takes those risky shots to win the match

 

[DanGR]

What no shut up

No shut what up?


But really. I've been viewing "reading my opponent" as what I think they'd be best off doing in a given situation, and not specifically what I think they're likely trying to avoid per se, even though they can be one in the same at given points in a match. It depends on the opponent, really- how they view the game.

 

[Zero]

Dtilt is beautiful because it limits your opponents options greatly. Airdodge, no airdodge or jump. You can punish all three, two with the same thing. It's quite easy to "read" your opponent in this situation because you know there's almost nothing they can do.

 

[Excellence]

This is wrong. While using what your opponent is not expect may work out because you are still able to hit them and gain inital success from it, doing what is right in the situation is usually better. Knowing the match-up and being able to put your opponent in situations that leave them with all bad options so you can react to them or punish them on sight is what this game is more so about. Just because I know or believe I know what you're consciously trying to avoid doesn't necessarily mean I can do anything about it or take advantage of that situation. In much the same way as knowing when a fast attack is going to occur doesn't guarentee that you'll be able to avoid it or deal with it any better. I think the only thing you did was learn how to make good mix-up decisions.

 

[Shadow 111]

I understand completely. This is some of what I was trying to explain to you, but couldn't really find the best words for.

I don't know what "ramblings" you're talking about, but I don't disagree with most of this at all. In fact, I consider myself to be a very psychologically oriented player, and I'm not the strongest when it comes to stuff like frame data @_@ .

HOWEVER, you're overvaluing mind games a bit with this. F-smash can occasionally be used like that, but this move and some others are way too slow to hit opponents with good reaction time. Even if the person has NO idea that a move is coming, they often are still able to punish it on sheer reaction. This applies to probably all moves to an extent, but the really slow moves become virtually impossible to use on a really quick-reacting opponent.

This is one thing I think I'm really good at, or at least decent at btw. Like with your example of Pika's Side B, I almost NEVER get hit by it when thrown out like that, and I've punished it in plenty of fun ways like offstage Down B towards the stage to spike him . The best punish may still require you to make the read though so that's where psychology still comes in handy for this stuff.

There are cases when really slow moves do work like this though. Like you were very good at using Peach bomber against me, because you timed it in a way where it would have to hit me based on your exact read of what I was about to do in the situation (either that or you're the biggest luckbox ). Anyway, I'm definitely rambling here lol, but what I'm basically saying is you have a very good point but are taking it a bit too far in it's effectiveness.

****, this was "Snakeee" not "Shadow" -_-

 

[Nefarious B]

Snakeee he hits me with peach bomber too lol, -that- **** is unexpected.

Relating to the OP though, your point is correct but your specific example isn't. As you know, we have moves that cover the exact same area as fsmash, with similar timing, but with better reward. I find it to be more about when and where are they trying to avoid an attack, not which move specifically, even though they are often the same thing. Hitbox angles and active frames are more important IMO.

I think a better example would be in one vid posted a while ago, I think it might have been Dakpo's, where he's edgeguarding I think it was a Snake, someone recovering at the high corner of the stage. Instead of spamming Uairs or trying to up b like any other ZS probly would, he went and hit the opponent twice with backside nair, the second time for a kill.

Why did this work? Because Snake knew that as soon as a ZS gets directly below him, either a uair or up b is coming. So he doesn't have to dodge until we get into that zone, and once we do he has an option that beats both our uair and our up b (fast fall airdodge). Using a move that came from an unexpected ANGLE is what allowed him to land those nairs, because he was conditioned to believe that an attack could only hit him if he was directly above ZSS.

 

[Zero]

This is why we should do all metagame discussion in BR or in IRC, so no one can know what we're up to, fufufufufu

yes, uair is our only move, believe ittt

 

[Nefarious B]

Seriously the BR needs a revival, threads like these are better suited for it IMO

 

[solecalibur]

I do have my occasional F-smash instead of ftilt for god knows what reason yet more effective ...

Spoiler

I should have more button errors?

 

[Z1GMA]

I feel ya.

We Ganons almost never use our Dsmash, but if we for some reason would buffer a reverse Dsmash
by mistake, our opponents gets hit by the final kick surprisingly often.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I love your analysis of this, it's true which is why slow start-up IS sometimes an advantage.


Because when people expect you to do a fast move and for example... spotdodge, the slower move catches them on the endlag. Moves with leanback accomplish similar things as well.


Obviously, you need moves that force your opponent to not "just wait for the PS" which is Ganon's problem, but if you can force your opponent to expect fast moves, they'll sometimes get hit by slow ones.

 

[NickRiddle]

Just d-smash instead. :D