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How do you think Smash 4 could be improved?

Mario & Sonic Guy

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This probably seems unnecessary, but some Final Smashes do need a bigger punch. One notable example is Giga Bowser, where despite being the biggest fighter in the game, he lacks the power that Giga Mac and Mega Lucario have access to. In fact, giant Bowser can KO things sooner than Giga Bowser.

A few weeks ago, I took the time to improve Giga Bowser's attacks to deal more damage, but I did have to tone down the knockback values for certain attacks. Of course, the f-smash did get buffed up so that a fully charged hit with the head can potentially KO even Bowser at 0% damage.
 

Lola Luftnagle

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Speaking of which, :4miibrawl:'s Final Smash ought to be something that fits her archetype (and yes, I made only female Miis). Make the Brawler's Final Smash a transformation-type like :4littlemac:'s. Y'all know how in cruel smash the fighting Mii team has an approximate damage multiplier of x2.0 on their attacks? Brawler would have that same handicap while being immune to knockback.

The :4miisword: also needs a final smash to reflect the fact she uses a sword. :4wiifit: is not a swordsman, so why does swordsman have her final smash? Instead of a barrage of extremely weak-ass blade beams penetrating all terrain, the final smash should be more like :4darkpit:'s where it has close to one-hit KO power.
 
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Dr.Megaman

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Things I would do to :4littlemac:

-Buff Jab, make it harder to DI out
-Buff side B, make it pre patch
-switch the numbers it takes from dealing and taking damage to get the KO punch. Make it more rewarding for Mac to deal out damage
-shave off 2 frames from bair/dair combo/rest potential
-Stop characters from escaping Mac's up B

wishful thinking: Add star mechanic, so if Mac preforms a 5-8 hit combo, he gets a star. A star would give him 2 arrows of the KO punch.
 

MasterZaden

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Things I would do to :4littlemac:

-Buff Jab, make it harder to DI out
-Buff side B, make it pre patch
-switch the numbers it takes from dealing and taking damage to get the KO punch. Make it more rewarding for Mac to deal out damage
-shave off 2 frames from bair/dair combo/rest potential
-Stop characters from escaping Mac's up B

wishful thinking: Add star mechanic, so if Mac preforms a 5-8 hit combo, he gets a star. A star would give him 2 arrows of the KO punch.
And take out the Smash Ball completely. Buff the KO Punch to be as good as a Final Smash, remove Giga Mac, and make every character have a Power Meter that charges to a Final Smash, so every character can have an itemless, RNG-less way to use Final Smashes in competitive play. Actually, you can leave the Smash Ball in if you want. Just add a better way to Final Smash without zomg-random-item-spawns and "Wow, you are down 5 stocks. Maybe one big attack will turn the game around but not really."

Also balance those suckers. Why do we have unbelievably atrocious Final Smashes like DK's and Jigglypuff's when Ike and Marth have such good ones?
 
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Dr.Megaman

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And take out the Smash Ball completely. Buff the KO Punch to be as good as a Final Smash, remove Giga Mac, and make every character have a Power Meter that charges to a Final Smash, so every character can have an itemless, RNG-less way to use Final Smashes in competitive play. Actually, you can leave the Smash Ball in if you want. Just add a better way to Final Smash without zomg-random-item-spawns and "Wow, you are down 5 stocks. Maybe one big attack will turn the game around but not really."

Also balance those suckers. Why to we have unbelievably atrocious Final Smashes like DK's and Jigglypuff's when Ike and Marth have such good ones?
The sarcasm wasn't necessary, those were more wishful thinking than actual buff. The only buff I want is his pre patch side B, those were the days when everyone was bad at the game. Now that the meta has evolved, it would be nice to have it back again.
 

Lola Luftnagle

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I wish for :4peach:'s Bob-ombs to not hurt her when she connects with them at too close of a range, similar to how :4link:'s bombs harm him none when he hits foes with them. Make them have that darkness ailment, too. Considering one plucks a Bob-omb with a theoretical 0.5% chance, it ought to have its risk of usage this low.

Ya know what, while I'm here talking about :4peach:, give me the option of picking her soccer uniform (or at least make that into a trophy to collect). Then :4zss: won't be the only one with hot outfits. :love:
 

MasterZaden

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The sarcasm wasn't necessary, those were more wishful thinking than actual buff. The only buff I want is his pre patch side B, those were the days when everyone was bad at the game. Now that the meta has evolved, it would be nice to have it back again.
I'm not sure why you think I was being sarcastic. Smash Ball spawning in a random place is a terrible, casual-only way to perform a Final Smash.
 

Lola Luftnagle

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Happy New Years Day to y'all!

This is a pretty insignificant thing, but when :4miibrawl::4miigun::4miisword: are in a lying down position after having been knocked back, I find their facial expression to be disturbing. They ought to modify that where they have half-opened eyes similar to :4dedede: or :4luigi: or even :4bowser: when they're lying down from a missed tech.
 

MasterZaden

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your entire response about everything else sounded sarcastic
You may have mistaken sarcasm out of my genuine dislike and frustration with the mechanic that your character's ultimate move can only be used if you monkey around the stage to catch a floating ball that is, frankly, an item so it can't be used in certain game modes, or if you are already losing so bad it doesn't matter.

Also Jigglypuff and DK really do have awful Final Smashes. Jigglypuff's kills teammates even when Team Attack is off.
 

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I'm not really into Final Smashes, but so many of them are so uninspired it's a real shame even to me.

I mean for Jigglypuff, you can give her a microphone or something and Sing can span the whole stage while it puts AND keeps everyone asleep for like 15 straight seconds no matter what while does with them what she will. Make sense, works into her character well, but no let's make her grow, makes no sense but yeah, we'll go with that.
Then half of them are just some weird ultimate form of the character. Giga Bowser, Giga Mac, Wario Man, Dragon Yoshi, Super Saiyan Sonic... so generic; why not just make a power up type item instead, and then make them some real Final smashes?
Most of them suck too, like they should be quick, one hit kill moves, not minor inconveniences that just ruin the pace of the match, or cuts scenes that also ruin the pace of the match.

They were an interesting idea at first, but as it stands they suck, kind of split on if I even care if they make a return or not.
 
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FamilyTeam

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Then half of them are just some weird ultimate form of the character. Giga Bowser, Giga Mac, Wario Man, Dragon Yoshi, Super Saiyan Sonic... so generic; why not just make a power up type item instead, and then make them some real Final smashes?
...Sonic transforms into Super Sonic. That from his games. It makes sense for him.
 

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The thing about the Smash Ball being a casual way to use your ultimate move?

It makes sense. Brawl was designed to appeal more to casuals than anything else. Also, in a way it's better than a meter of sorts, since only the best characters benefit from it. The randomness that is the Smash Ball gives weaker players a better chance at using it.

Jigglypuff's does make sense(even if it could be better), though. That's pretty much what it does, puffing up is one of its signature things. Albeit, it's more of an anime thing, but Pokemon is heavily inspired by it in Smash anyway. Donkey Kong's does suck, even if it at least comes from the games properly.
 

Lola Luftnagle

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  • :4miibrawl:'s Ultimate Uppercut should be a little more like :4littlemac:'s KO Uppercut
  • Well, I'm pretty surprised anti-:rosalina: players haven't given me **** about the buffs I last suggested (especially since they've been working on that matchup if not mastered it). So, I'm going to recant on them and just propose one aesthetic change to her. Luma ought to appear in pink, purple, black, and white (and these particular color Lumas deal fire, electricity, or darkness ailments at random)
  • I want to see :4kirby: copy custom moves! Why the dichromate ions does he never copy custom neutral specials? Wouldn't it be nice to see him shoot Ice Balls or blow garlic-breath in people's face?
  • Add in N64's Battlefield, Final Destination, and Metal Mario Stage. Brings back memories, do they not?
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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I did even more adjustments to Giga Bowser's attacks yesterday. What really disturbed me with Giga Bowser is that he is less powerful than giant Bowser. Whenever Bowser picks up a Super Mushroom, his attacks basically deal approximately 1.5625x more damage than normal, and that's a bigger punch than what Giga Bowser could ever throw out.

And to add insult to injury, the Giga Bowser transformation doesn't last very long; 480 frames, which is only 8 seconds at normal speed. A short Final Smash transformation that's less rewarding than simply picking up a Super Mushroom just isn't right for my tastes.

Oh and one final note, increasing the duration of the Final Smash transformations would be good too, since it would improve the odds of making a comeback if you get the Pity Final Smash treatment; the odds become even greater against multiple opponents as well. I actually increased the transformation duration to 20 seconds for Wario-Man, Giga Mac, and Mega Lucario, while Giga Bowser's duration gets increased to 1200 frames (equal to 20 seconds at normal speed).
 

Dr.Megaman

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You may have mistaken sarcasm out of my genuine dislike and frustration with the mechanic that your character's ultimate move can only be used if you monkey around the stage to catch a floating ball that is, frankly, an item so it can't be used in certain game modes, or if you are already losing so bad it doesn't matter.

Also Jigglypuff and DK really do have awful Final Smashes. Jigglypuff's kills teammates even when Team Attack is off.
Ahh I see, I was just talking about how you could competitively change Mac.
 

Arthur97

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I'm not really into Final Smashes, but so many of them are so uninspired it's a real shame even to me.

I mean for Jigglypuff, you can give her a microphone or something and Sing can span the whole stage while it puts AND keeps everyone asleep for like 15 straight seconds no matter what while does with them what she will. Make sense, works into her character well, but no let's make her grow, makes no sense but yeah, we'll go with that.
Then half of them are just some weird ultimate form of the character. Giga Bowser, Giga Mac, Wario Man, Dragon Yoshi, Super Saiyan Sonic... so generic; why not just make a power up type item instead, and then make them some real Final smashes?
Most of them suck too, like they should be quick, one hit kill moves, not minor inconveniences that just ruin the pace of the match, or cuts scenes that also ruin the pace of the match.

They were an interesting idea at first, but as it stands they suck, kind of split on if I even care if they make a return or not.
Really there are only about 11 or so transformation Final Smashes, and even then only 3 and a half (Bowser has his Brawl moveset) keep their own movest.
 
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MacSmitty

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Then half of them are just some weird ultimate form of the character. Giga Bowser, Giga Mac, Wario Man, Dragon Yoshi, Super Saiyan Sonic... so generic; why not just make a power up type item instead, and then make them some real Final smashes?
Most of them suck too, like they should be quick, one hit kill moves, not minor inconveniences that just ruin the pace of the match, or cuts scenes that also ruin the pace of the match.
Dragon Yoshi, Wario Man and Super Sonic make sense for the characters.
Also, changing "generic" Final Smashes all into quick, one hit kill moves will make things very boring. Most supers in fighting games have to be different so it won't be considered lazy by the eyes of the public.
I do agree that some of them need serious changes, and if the devs want to replace the Smash Ball with a meter in it make them weaker.
 

Arthur97

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Donkey Kong's could definitely use a change (maybe the end barrel from DKCR and DKCTF). It could still even be timing based if they just want a timing move. It would make it different from other trapping Smashes.
 

SJMistery

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Shaving half of the start-up lag of Greninja's forward and neutral aerial. Seriously, you can't even use them if you short-hop! You land before the hiboxes appear and you get a bunch of landing lag with no reward at all.

Changing DK's final smash would be a shame, all they need to do is that if you get a "good" or better in all twenty hits, you automatically unleash a final OHKO sound wave Master Core-style.
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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Really there are only about 11 or so transformation Final Smashes, and even then only 3 and a half (Bowser has his Brawl moveset) keep their own movest.
Technically there are only 4 transformation Final Smashes, since Giga Bowser, Wario-Man, Giga Mac, and Mega Lucario are also actual fighters. Final Smashes like Super Dragon, Landmaster, Octopus, Mega Charizard X, and Super Sonic are more like offensive attacks, since they're not actual fighters.

Also, it should be noted that CPUs behave differently against transformation Final Smashes, where they don't constantly try to dodge every attack like they would whenever an offensive attack Final Smash is used.
 

Arthur97

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Well, I was going with the general rule of if you can still control the character than it is a transformation Final Smash. They're not quite a single attack like Zero Laser or PK Starstorm. Plus, I think the wiki lumps them together so I did too.

With all that said, I wouldn't mind having cloned Final Smashes changed. Falco being a prime example.
 

SJMistery

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Then don't use them on short hop.
The point is. They are too laggy to be aerials. F-air is basically an aerial Smash attack, so that one is passable, but N-air is slow, has a tiny hitbox, and is really only useful for the footstool combo, while almost every other N-air can be used as a "get off me" button while in midair and for spacing.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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Well, I was going with the general rule of if you can still control the character than it is a transformation Final Smash. They're not quite a single attack like Zero Laser or PK Starstorm. Plus, I think the wiki lumps them together so I did too.
I guess my definition of a transformation Final Smash is different, since Giga Bowser, Wario-Man, Giga Mac, and Mega Lucario are all treated as actual fighters, having their own attributes, scripts, sound clips, and even being able to have multiple color slots.

All the other Final Smashes are not treated like that, but I guess you could refer to Super Dragon, Octopus, Mega Charizard X, and Super Sonic as pseudo-transformations; the fighters power themselves up, but do not operate like an actual fighter would.
 

MasterZaden

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The thing about the Smash Ball being a casual way to use your ultimate move?

It makes sense. Brawl was designed to appeal more to casuals than anything else. Also, in a way it's better than a meter of sorts, since only the best characters benefit from it. The randomness that is the Smash Ball gives weaker players a better chance at using it.
Yeah but we're past Brawl. It's not better than a meter because first of all, it does not give weaker players a better chance at getting it. It gives them a random chance to get it, the same random chance the better player has of getting it. Also, being an item that randomly spawns, it works in casual play but doesn't spill over into competitive play. We're talking about Sm4sh, which has a For Glory mode that never sees these hype moves. Having a meter would mean it could be used in casual and competitive, and that's what Sm4sh was going for, appealing to both styles.

You can have a meter work any way you want. If it charges faster by getting hit, it's a come back mechanic. If it charges faster by dishing out damage, it's a momentum builder that rewards aggressive play (Did I see something earlier in a thread that said to give players a reason to approach?). Imagine if you could adjust meter gain in the options for casuals and competitives. Randomness hardly ever makes for better balancing, since you seemed concerned about weaker players. Randomness isn't balanced towards the weaker, it's random. And imagine that ball flying around. Would the player who's performing better have better stage control, thus a better chance to get the ball? If you are concerned about the weaker player, make it a comeback METER that builds, not hinged by how far you are back in score as far as stocks, because right now you have to be getting absolutely trounced to spawn with a FS, so it's not even a game changer for the weaker player.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Yeah but we're past Brawl. It's not better than a meter because first of all, it does not give weaker players a better chance at getting it. It gives them a random chance to get it, the same random chance the better player has of getting it. Also, being an item that randomly spawns, it works in casual play but doesn't spill over into competitive play. We're talking about Sm4sh, which has a For Glory mode that never sees these hype moves. Having a meter would mean it could be used in casual and competitive, and that's what Sm4sh was going for, appealing to both styles.

You can have a meter work any way you want. If it charges faster by getting hit, it's a come back mechanic. If it charges faster by dishing out damage, it's a momentum builder that rewards aggressive play (Did I see something earlier in a thread that said to give players a reason to approach?). Imagine if you could adjust meter gain in the options for casuals and competitives. Randomness hardly ever makes for better balancing, since you seemed concerned about weaker players. Randomness isn't balanced towards the weaker, it's random. And imagine that ball flying around. Would the player who's performing better have better stage control, thus a better chance to get the ball? If you are concerned about the weaker player, make it a comeback METER that builds, not hinged by how far you are back in score as far as stocks, because right now you have to be getting absolutely trounced to spawn with a FS, so it's not even a game changer for the weaker player.
Meters were designed strictly for competitive play. The only meter in the game(s) in general is Little Mac's a very specific gimmick. It is still intended as an overall casual series.

And no, the randomness does not benefit "better" players easier. It's too random for that. It can spawn just about anywhere. Meters really aren't very well-designed by default either, and completely take away from the uniqueness of the game, being items. It makes more sense for the series as an item in both a casual(which the series should still appeal more to casuals since that's the main playerbase) and a "this is how the game series was always designed to be" sense. Meters are not really balanced either, nor do they work well, plus that would not really help the game series feel like its own thing.

There is no real way to make meters work properly and still keep the series designed properly for casuals. It's not really a casual type of playstyle by design either. It also misses the point of why they're items; A way to uniquely control using that overpowered move. The best balance, while keeping it random enough(which makes the game series work better in the long run), is to balance out the Final Smashes more. Also, the idea of Final Smashes being item-only also is intended to be created solely for casual play. Competitive play is not about some overpowered move in general. It's about using your character with the specific rules(generally no items, and balanced courses) to beat the other player using purely your own skill. The fact Final Smashes were designed as basically special items to use is relevant to the series. It's always been an item-based series. It'd be a pointless change for the sake of it. It doesn't make the game more unique either, but just tries to make it look like tons of other competitive fighting games. Smash 4 is still designed to appeal to casuals, and it does a great job at it in general. It removes a good chunk of the randomness, but doesn't eliminate it entirely, still keeping the series' fun design intact. Since Brawl, they've taken away the extremely specific controls akin to regular Fighting Games(bar Ryu's own gimmick), meaning a lot of the Input Commands are gone, a feature that is intended to be for competitive fighting games. Some of the most notable Input Commands were Wavedashing(gone), the original Dancing Blade and Roy's clone version of it(both were made far easier to actually use, although getting which one you want is slightly more difficult, but it's harder to screw up the overall move in return). This made the game series far more accessible.

Meters really don't appeal to a lot of gamers because instead of just having fun and going for that neat item(a huge thing that is part of the game's main design, when items are on), you just concentrate on tanking, which would apply for all characters. It's too hard to balance around tons of super unique playstyles, lack of a Hit Points meter(the HP meter actually does make Meter gameplay more accessible because you have to be even more careful when avoiding to get hit), and only benefits characters who are too powerful or can tank hits better than others. They're not really designed around a percentage system. Rage already covers the idea of increasing your stats if you are too high in damage/take hits too often. This is fine because it actually works well for this kind of series. It's designed directly for Smash. Meters works fine for someone like Little Mac, but it'd require a huge revamping and way too much balancing when the Smash Ball already does the job well while appealing to the players that actually use items. The only way for it to be fair in competitive play is if the Final Smashes were not very powerful at all, and also had to be reduced to an extremely specific amount per match, which already starts to sound far more boring than the official version the series uses, which actually is more fun for all kinds of players.
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

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Cloud had a meter as well and people hate the super bonus he gets for holding onto it, better mobility.

Meters can work in smash but you also need to be careful how much power you load into them or how they overall affect gameplay.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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Cloud had a meter as well and people hate the super bonus he gets for holding onto it, better mobility.
At least there's a disadvantage for Limit Break mode in that you need to conserve your special moves until you find the right time to use them. Also, Limit Break doesn't necessarily help Cloud survive longer, since the gravity increase pretty much nullifies the increased falling speed.

Despite these flaws though, Limit Break is pretty much the only thing saving Cloud's normally poor recovery.
 

Lola Luftnagle

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Disable taunting on the With Anyone online modes and completely remove the ability to create tags.
 

SJMistery

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Disable taunting on the With Anyone online modes and completely remove the ability to create tags.
OH PLEASE NO! Come on! And how would we Greninja mains be supposed to get kill setups and Shadow Sneak mindgames then? And of course, how would Luigi mains edgeguard with style otherwise?
Having very limited chances to use them is already harsh enough...
 
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Lola Luftnagle

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Uh... ohh-kay... I don't know how to respond to that previous post.
Anyways, to all others listening: I want L-cancelling back. All fighters (especially :4charizard::4ganondorf::4bowser: and even :4pit: and :4pikachu:) would have safer landing options this way.
 
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SJMistery

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As you know, Luigi and Greninja have taunts with hitboxes, one being the strongest spike in the whole game and the other having a surprisingly decent knockbacat high percents.

In particular, Greninja's Down Taunt can be essentially considered an extra attack, despite having very specific utility as a kill confirm when followed by sweetspotted Up Smash at above 100%, despite down tilt being sometimes more practical; as well as being the only damaging action Greninja can do while charging Shadow Sneak.
In fact, all taunts causing mindgames due to being cancellable via Shadow Sneak as well as ensuring you won't give away the charge by walking is more than enough reason to lift the taunt restrictions on Greninja, as well as Bayonetta who can also cancel them.

Removing taunts on Online would deny what is Greninja's and Luigi's equivalent to the Falcon Punch.
 

Lola Luftnagle

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  • Remove ledge-trumping and bring back edge-hogging. Another reason why Melee is more superior to this and Brawl.
  • I don't quite get how :4kirby: is heavier than :rosalina:. Can't she, like, be around :4peach:'s weight? Personally, it makes sense considering they almost share the same falling speed.
  • Completely removing the possibility of Goldeen coming out of Master Balls.
  • Togepi should never do that Nightshade bit and Nightmare should never be released from Assist Trophies.
  • I want Melee-style dash-dancing, please. Ever since Brawl, this has become almost impossible to do.
 

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Give the Wii U version some actual single player modes that don't suck. An adventure mode would be nice.

Oh, and no more duplicate custom moves gotten. They're a ****ing pain enough to get already. It's okay with trophies since they're just collectibles, but custom moves are something you can actually use. Getting all of them is a horrible, boring chore. Also, it'd be nice if more of them were... more creative and out there. It's sorta boring when a custom move for something is just a slight variation. But I guess not everyone can be Palutena or Mega Man.
 

Spurdo

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I do agree that some of them need serious changes, and if the devs want to replace the Smash Ball with a meter in it make them weaker.
making the mechanic a meter inherent to each character would be pretty cancerous tbh, especially in competitive play. they'd essentially be instant death moves that would either make it impossible to approach your enemy or make one of the characters a giant ball of death that the other player cant do anything about for 15 seconds

Obtaining final smashes through Smash ball is a much more interesting due to the frantic competition to obtain them in FFAs and final smashes don't affect gameplay outside of matches with items off
 
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