Q&A How Do I Penguin? King Dedede Q&A Thread

[WispBae]

Thanks for the assist Soul Train

Though I've noticed a trend with Sonic. Sleuthing around these boards, it seems like everyone thinks Sonic is their worst MU. Which is odd when even higher tier boards list as Sonic as ridiculously good against someone like, say, ZSS.

At first I'm thinking "well Doggy has a hard time with Sonic, so maybe D3 isn't the answer". Then it dawns on you: everyone has trouble fighting Sonic and the grass always looks greener on the other side. That's just the kind of character he is, hit and run.

Anyways, just been thinking D3 would be good option coverage with Doggy and Robin. Perhaps dropping Robin for him, as much as I love them, my thoughts being "Both Doggo and Robin are projectile characters", where D3 seems like he's kind of a brawler.

Indecisiveness yay! Why is every character in this game so fun to play T_T The maining issue is too stronk...

That aside, I'm definitely now putting in the work in the lab with D3, and perhaps maining him for a while until the fix Duck Hunt's broken smash attacks.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

So, I know we have frame data and stuff, but I want to know do we have any convenient diagrams showing hitbox placement on his moves. Or just like, those gifs of hitboxes you can find for Melee and Brawl lol.

I guess I'm more specifically interested in the hitbox size and placement on certain attacks, like jab, bair, ftilt, usmash, etc. But having clear visuals would help me and probably a lot of other Dedede players. Even if it's just like snapshots of the game with relative location of the hitboxes drawn on it in photoshop.

 

[randomguy1235]

So, I know we have frame data and stuff, but I want to know do we have any convenient diagrams showing hitbox placement on his moves. Or just like, those gifs of hitboxes you can find for Melee and Brawl lol.

I guess I'm more specifically interested in the hitbox size and placement on certain attacks, like jab, bair, ftilt, usmash, etc. But having clear visuals would help me and probably a lot of other Dedede players. Even if it's just like snapshots of the game with relative location of the hitboxes drawn on it in photoshop.

Actually our own beloved Soul Train made a comprehensive and very informative guide about this very thing. Here's the link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6U_IYIVB4Q

 

[TMJ_Jack]

I found out that Kirby's Inhale has is a command grab from the featured story on the home page's news feed, so you'd think Dedede's would too. However, I've never really had that impression. Is Dedede's Inhale a command grab?

So recently I've been really struggling against ZSS as D3, a lot of the time I'll die off one grab at 30 from a string, and overall it's just very difficult for me to win and while it may not be, seems undoable. I've also been using Diddy for it and doing pretty well, but still I would like to learn more about the MU with D3, so any advice for the MU?

Bad news: you're looking at an awful match up: 5:95 . Worse news: she's kind of becoming the new Sheik/Diddy aka when a player feels they're not as good as they should be, they use her as a crutch to get on par with better players. Worst news: a ZSS's most basic KO set ups are her most effective.
So she's a bad match up, a lot of people use her, and she's not hard to use against us. These are dark times for His Majesty...
If you want to be successful in tournaments or online, there's no way to do that without facing ZSS and facing her often.
The first piece of advice is sad: don't face her as Dedede. Dedede is low and seems only to be getting lower with changes to the mechanics, the meta, and other characters. He just isn't on par with her.
If you're like me, you refuse to take this into account. I always play as Dedede. In my experience with the match up, you have to do a couple things:
First, stay on or very near to the ground. She wins in the air; zair, upair, and nair are all going to to beat everything we have. Not to mention one upair could lead into a stock-taking Boost Kick.
Next, be on defense. You can come out of the gates swinging, but after that initial engagement, back off. Soul Train is right, anything we do wrong can be punished with a grab and a very painful combo. If you're not good at spot dodging, start practicing. You're going to want to spot dodge near her. (The grab lingers a bit at the end of the whip.) Rolling away can be effective for escaping, but Dedede's roll has too much lag to land a punish afterwards.
And general advice on the plasma shot: mix up your defense. Don't just shield the plasma shot and back roll every time. Sprint in and shield some. Believe it or not, Plasma Shot has some relatively terrible ending lag. You might be able to yoink a grab if she charges too long. Hop out of shield maybe? Well-timed spot dodge?
Regardless of if any of my advice helps, it takes courage and humility to put yourself into a situation were you know you probably won't win. Take some pride in playing a character you actually enjoy; people respect that.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Dedede's inhale is technically a command grab, but frame data-wise it's probably the slowest in the game. Kirby's comes out really fast but lacks a bit of the range of Dedede's, Wario's is super fast, as is Bowser's, and Ganondorf can cover a good distance with his command grab. Makes me wish inhale had better frame data or some other sort of use to it, but eh...it's still a really valuable move.

 

[Soul Train]

Makes me wish inhale had better frame data or some other sort of use to it, but eh...it's still a really valuable move.

So, I've been really thinking through D3's moves this past week, and came up with a simple solution. It would be super easy to make D3 viable: take off 10 frames (yes, ten) from several moves. Doesn't matter whether they're on startup or cooldown, just ten total. The moves in specific:

• Gordo throw. We've talked before about how higher reflect ceilings would be great, but that would only affect a few campy matchups. No, the move's real problem is how unsafe Gordo is at anything but fullstage range. At the moment, D3 is unsafe for 52+ frames (!!!) on Gordo throw. Changing endlag to let D3 act immediately after hitting the Gordo would change a ton - not only with the potential of immediate Dtilt/Nair/Shield reflect coverage, but you could actually get legit kill combos from Utilt Gordo -> Uair/Bair. If you miss, you get shield pressure with Gordo, if you hit shield, you're safe and can grab their defensive option. Yess.
• Inhale. Right now, it's a viable mixup for D3, but it should be a critical option forcing opponents to play around it - precisely like Wario's Bite. Ten frames off of the 17ish frame cooldown would be huuuge.
• Fair and Jab. And yes I'm perfectly willing to exchange a damage nerf for speed - that's what Ike got, and it turned out fantastic. These two moves, sped up, would immensely change D3's game. The threat zones they're supposed to cover are precisely D3's weak zones right now, because the moves are too laggy/janky/risky to justify their use much in neutral. Jab alone is just dumb - for every other character in the game, Jab is the "fast and safe move" to throw out in neutral, always on whiff and often on shield. Ours is punishable on shield AND whiff...it's just not worth the risk/reward balance whatsoever. Sped up, Jab 1->2 would connect more reliably, actually combo at usable ranges, and dammit be safe on whiff. Right now, Sheik can grab you in between Jab 1 and 2 while you're holding A. That's just stupid.

My 2 cents. Might make a video with some threat zone illustrations to demonstrate this/hope that someone at Nintendo sees it. Wishing upon a star and all that.

 

[williamsga555]

Quicker Inhale cooldown would be amazing. I had never even considered that for wishlist buffs, but it would help loads against rushdown.

Quicker jab would also do wonders. The space control on jab 2 is amazing.

 

[Girthquake]

I've looked a few different places and can't find it and I feel a bit stupid asking this but uh...

What's the hitlag modifier on Gordo? It can't be 1.25 I'm assuming it's 1.5 but figured I'd ask you guys. shrooby Figure you might know the answer to this one.

 

[Soul Train]

I've looked a few different places and can't find it and I feel a bit stupid asking this but uh...

What's the hitlag modifier on Gordo? It can't be 1.25 I'm assuming it's 1.5 but figured I'd ask you guys. shrooby Figure you might know the answer to this one.

It's 1.5. Just re-checked it to make sure.

 

[Girthquake]

It's 1.5. Just re-checked it to make sure.

Thanks man I appreciate it.

 

[TMJ_Jack]

I totally agree. The only reason why Dedede is "terrible" is janky frame data. His moveset is very versatile and makes for very interesting play and counterplay, but he lacks the speed necessary to put him at an advantage. Buffing frame data is all we need. A kill throw or less progressive knockback on down throw would be nice, but those wouldn't fix our real issue.

 

[williamsga555]

Was wondering what stages are considered Dedede's best/worst. Recently I've been striking Lylat a lot (why do the slopes just eat gordos?), and opting for Battlefield/Dreamland more often, but I'm wondering what others thought. Do you have any preferred stages for striking and/or selecting?

 

[Deleted member]

I find that Smashville and Town and City are quite good stages for Dedede. I've heard people say Battlefield and Dream Land are beneficial for him but I've never liked fighting on them at all lmao

So, I've been really thinking through D3's moves this past week, and came up with a simple solution. It would be super easy to make D3 viable: take off 10 frames (yes, ten) from several moves. Doesn't matter whether they're on startup or cooldown, just ten total. The moves in specific:

• Gordo throw. We've talked before about how higher reflect ceilings would be great, but that would only affect a few campy matchups. No, the move's real problem is how unsafe Gordo is at anything but fullstage range. At the moment, D3 is unsafe for 52+ frames (!!!) on Gordo throw. Changing endlag to let D3 act immediately after hitting the Gordo would change a ton - not only with the potential of immediate Dtilt/Nair/Shield reflect coverage, but you could actually get legit kill combos from Utilt Gordo -> Uair/Bair. If you miss, you get shield pressure with Gordo, if you hit shield, you're safe and can grab their defensive option. Yess.
• Inhale. Right now, it's a viable mixup for D3, but it should be a critical option forcing opponents to play around it - precisely like Wario's Bite. Ten frames off of the 17ish frame cooldown would be huuuge.
• Fair and Jab. And yes I'm perfectly willing to exchange a damage nerf for speed - that's what Ike got, and it turned out fantastic. These two moves, sped up, would immensely change D3's game. The threat zones they're supposed to cover are precisely D3's weak zones right now, because the moves are too laggy/janky/risky to justify their use much in neutral. Jab alone is just dumb - for every other character in the game, Jab is the "fast and safe move" to throw out in neutral, always on whiff and often on shield. Ours is punishable on shield AND whiff...it's just not worth the risk/reward balance whatsoever. Sped up, Jab 1->2 would connect more reliably, actually combo at usable ranges, and dammit be safe on whiff. Right now, Sheik can grab you in between Jab 1 and 2 while you're holding A. That's just stupid.

My 2 cents. Might make a video with some threat zone illustrations to demonstrate this/hope that someone at Nintendo sees it. Wishing upon a star and all that.

You. You brilliant, brilliant man. You hit the nail right on the head on where D3 needs improvements the most. The Samus boards had made a video listing Samus' crucial flaws and she got (somewhat minor but it's something) buffs last patch, so it'd be great if a video like this could reach out to Nintendo as well. It'd also probably appeal those who mained Dedede in Brawl but dropped him here because of his prevalent issues.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

I like going to Smashville and T&C the most as Dedede. FD works well as well, but I try to strike that stage against characters with powerful zoning tools. All that said I don't really think BF/DL is that bad for Dedede, you just have to be really comfortable with using Gordo on the platforms. Avoid the tri-platform stages against characters with strong elevator combos though, like Mario, ZSS (lol), Falcon, etc.

Lylat is a tri-plat stage but with worse platform placement and sloped surfaces. It's just...really bleh to be Dedede there. We can at least ride up the ledge now, and you might get some cheese kills on characters with poor recovery thanks to the tilting but overall I don't like this stage that much.

 

[Deleted member]

I like going to Smashville and T&C the most as Dedede. FD works well as well, but I try to strike that stage against characters with powerful zoning tools. All that said I don't really think BF/DL is that bad for Dedede, you just have to be really comfortable with using Gordo on the platforms. Avoid the tri-platform stages against characters with strong elevator combos though, like Mario, ZSS (lol), Falcon, etc.

Lylat is a tri-plat stage but with worse platform placement and sloped surfaces. It's just...really bleh to be Dedede there. We can at least ride up the ledge now, and you might get some cheese kills on characters with poor recovery thanks to the tilting but overall I don't like this stage that much.

Lylat Cruise truly is awful for Dedede. It just feels so cramped and it really limits Dedede's full capabilities compared to other legal stages. The slopes screw me over as well.

How do you guys feel about Dedede on Halberd? I've done decently enough on that stage.

 

[FrostBlitzkrieg]

I always avoid playing on Battlefield/Dreamland/Miiverse because Dedede is combo food for a lot of characters and you will just get so much damage racked up against you and it can be hard to land safely. That being said, your back-air hits people on the platform which is really helpful in some match-ups.

Smashville is my favorite Dedede stage with Lylat as second just because in my experience the map gives you many tricky options with Gordo and the platform arrangement benefits Dedede more than other characters. Also, people tend to be uncomfortable on Lylat so the crazy grodo bounces only helps to bring on the mental pressure.

I also avoid FD and other flat stages like it just because Dedede doesn't do all that well against zoning characters.

Halberd is okay for Dedede, although he doesn't get too many kills out of the top. My favorite trick on Halberd is to come up through the platform but just barely so your opponent either gets hit or maybe his shield breaks. Good stage pick IMO just because there are a lot of early kills and Dedede is so heavy.

 

[howbadisbad]

So i borrowed a copy of 3ds and I went on 4 glory and I am having trouble with the following (not sure if its because the lag or because im bad):

Mega man: HE destroys your recovery with drop low bair, leaf shield basically sets up free grabs, his uair is dumb and does a million percent on you, metal blades are ridiculous and set up free everything

Link: Why doesn't boomerang have lag like toon link? Why is jab jab dsmash a thing?

Captain Falcon: is there a good way to get in on rapid jabs? It stuffs all my approaches and if i go into the air he can shield.

Game and watch: same as captain except bacon stuffs all my approaches

Little mac: is there an option to punish dsmash and fsmash on shield? Because everytime I tried he was able to roll then smash me for a punish.

 

[williamsga555]

Mega Man is one of our absolute worst matchups, to my knowledge. Haven't had the, uh...pleasure of facing a really good one yet, but even what I've faced has been pretty awful to deal with. Not sure if it's still considered our worst or if ZSS takes that.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

So i borrowed a copy of 3ds and I went on 4 glory and I am having trouble with the following (not sure if its because the lag or because im bad):

Mega man: HE destroys your recovery with drop low bair, leaf shield basically sets up free grabs, his uair is dumb and does a million percent on you, metal blades are ridiculous and set up free everything

Unfortunately this is just a really really bad match-up. You just kinda have to be patient and poke at Mega Man whenever he leaves himself open. Do note you can catch Metal Blades, but I'm not sure if Dedede can do anything worthwhile with them.

Link: Why doesn't boomerang have lag like toon link? Why is jab jab dsmash a thing?

For Link you should get comfortable perfect shielding his projectiles. He has less mobility than Toon Link (although he does fall significantly faster) so it's harder for him to approach you or punish your mistakes. Most of your moves will outrange Link's up close options, you're just gonna have to slowly work your way in because Dedede's approach options are also limited.

Captain Falcon: is there a good way to get in on rapid jabs? It stuffs all my approaches and if i go into the air he can shield.

How are you approaching Falcon? Again, your range is one of your biggest assets here. If you catch him shielding your aerial approaches, you could always do an empty hop and land with a grab. Another option that might work here is Gordo, I can't personally confirm it myself at the moment but Gordo apparently has a large amount of shield stun after this last patch.

Game and watch: same as captain except bacon stuffs all my approaches

Bacon is pretty laggy so you could try walking up and shielding it, then hitting him with an ftilt.

Little mac: is there an option to punish dsmash and fsmash on shield? Because everytime I tried he was able to roll then smash me for a punish.

Perfect shield might give you enough frame advantage over Mac's smashes to properly retaliate, if not, you want to try to bait him into making a mistake and punish it.


Unfortunately Dedede being....Dedede, a lot of your approach options are limited to walking up and perfect shielding attacks, and using your multiple jumps and fast fall speeds to mix-up your aerial approaches. You want to sit just outside the "danger zone" for most characters and try to beat them out with your superior range, and trick them into making mistakes. Baiting your opponents and learning how to effectively use your Gordos is a large part of doing this.

The other issue is that Dedede's frame data isn't particularly good, and your fastest attack is like frame 6. Meanwhile some characters can throw out hitboxes as early as frame 1. Not to mention almost all of Dedede's attacks (barring a couple of his aerials) have a noticeable amount of end lag, meaning any slip out on your part means you're gonna eat a punish, particularly from the faster characters like Falcon or Little Mac.

If you haven't yet, I would watch Soul Train's Dedede video guides because they cover a lot of what I said here but in greater detail (and with images!). Dedede is capable of doing things once you get in, but he needs to be played with patience and you have to respect your opponent's options.

 

[Aki]

I watched some Jdawg games from the recent Xanadus recently and realized how good ledge trumps are for DDD so I tried getting them down myself but I just can't do it reliably. I watched My Smash Corner's guide as well and it didn't really help. I either run to the ledge and then turn around or I just fall down without grabbing the ledge, mostly with a fast fall. Do you guys have any tips on inputs or timing? The "roll the stick back up" trick from the My Smash Corner video doesn't do it for me.

 

[Soul Train]

I watched some Jdawg games from the recent Xanadus recently and realized how good ledge trumps are for DDD so I tried getting them down myself but I just can't do it reliably. I watched My Smash Corner's guide as well and it didn't really help. I either run to the ledge and then turn around or I just fall down without grabbing the ledge, mostly with a fast fall. Do you guys have any tips on inputs or timing? The "roll the stick back up" trick from the My Smash Corner video doesn't do it for me.

Practice. I know it's annoying to hear. But you're either not moving the stick fast enough (you fastfall past the ledge) or too slow (you don't go off the ledge). If you've played Street Fighter at all, it's the same timing as a half-circle input. Hold forward, then right as D3 is running off the ledge, roll the stick FAST through forward, down, then back. Jdawg might have better tips than that; there's what I got.

 

[Aki]

Practice. I know it's annoying to hear.

Not at all, I've been training technical stuff in Training Mode anyways recently because my local scene is getting bigger and I want to rep DDD as best as possible. I was going to add Ledge Trumps to the slate anyways but at least now I know what I did wrong. Thanks!

 

[Jdawg26]

Yeah, if you're familiar with Street Fighter it's pretty much a QCB motion with the stick returning to neutral or towards the stage ASAP.

DDD is one of the fastest fallers in the game so the window to grab the ledge after you fall of the stage is pretty small. Just keep working on it. Training mode at a lower speed can help you get the gist of it faster.

 

[Aki]

I think I got it down for the most part, now I just need to practise it so I can do it more consistently. Thanks for the help.

 

[TMJ_Jack]

Jdawg26 Girthquake was saying how you've been using jump cancel up smash in your play. Could you briefly explain how to do that and maybe describe what it looks like for Dedede?

 

[Girthquake]

Jdawg26 Girthquake was saying how you've been using jump cancel up smash in your play. Could you briefly explain how to do that and maybe describe what it looks like for Dedede?

There's a bunch of videos on it. If you mean just simply jump canceling what I do is roll my stick forwards then up right as I flick my thumb across Y(My jump button) and A. Basically you're doing the input for the Usmash during your jump squat animation.

If you mean reverse, then that's literally just turning around like you're going to do a pivot Ftilt or something and just doing a jump canceled usmash after turning around.

 

[Jdawg26]

I use it more often to turn pivot usmash more consistently to cover landings, especially if they're trying to recover high on a stage with platforms. Since usmash's hitbox gets larger near the end of the swing, I can get a stronger anti-air with less risk of being hit out of it by hitting with the back part of the swing instead of the front.

It's super hard to explain when or why I use it, but I hope that helped at least. Let me know if I can clarify anything a bit better. TMJ_Jack

 

[Wnyke]

Hi DDDs, I need advice on aproaching defensive players, counter attackers basically...
I have tried poking with ftilt and jabs, but I keep struggling getting in without being punished... or at least forcing other option than shielding...

I know grabs are a thing, but with that running speed, and slow dash attack, I can't keep them guessing without being obvious, same goes with gordos... is there a way of doing a pivot grab to the direction you are running? Or something like that...

Also I was wondering what is the best option out of shield?... when your opponent is in the back grounded or airborne... I always try to get out and reset to neutral in that situation...

 

[Cook]

Hi DDDs, I need advice on aproaching defensive players, counter attackers basically...
I have tried poking with ftilt and jabs, but I keep struggling getting in without being punished... or at least forcing other option than shielding...

I know grabs are a thing, but with that running speed, and slow dash attack, I can't keep them guessing without being obvious, same goes with gordos... is there a way of doing a pivot grab to the direction you are running? Or something like that...

Also I was wondering what is the best option out of shield?... when your opponent is in the back grounded or airborne... I always try to get out and reset to neutral in that situation...

What you do when they're behind your shield really depends on what they're doing. If they land with enough lag you can drop shield, turn around and grab. If they're in the air you might be able to nair oos if they're close enough, or you can even sometimes get them with a surprise up smash oos. Most of the time though they're not gonna have enough lag to really do anything but get out and reset.

 

[atomicblast360]

Okay so recently I have been really struggling hard, and when I mean struggle I mean I have no clue at all how to fight Duck Hunt. I get bodied by this character every time I face a really good one and I don't understand how to play the MU. I need some advice, and videos to watch to see how it's played

 

[Cook]

Okay so recently I have been really struggling hard, and when I mean struggle I mean I have no clue at all how to fight Duck Hunt. I get bodied by this character every time I face a really good one and I don't understand how to play the MU. I need some advice, and videos to watch to see how it's played

I've only played Duck Hunt once in bracket. It was just about shielding intelligently. Closing the space slowly. It was a while ago, like early summer, so I can't remember much else.

 

[TMJ_Jack]

Okay so recently I have been really struggling hard, and when I mean struggle I mean I have no clue at all how to fight Duck Hunt. I get bodied by this character every time I face a really good one and I don't understand how to play the MU. I need some advice, and videos to watch to see how it's played

Yeah, Cook nailed it. You're just going to have to play with disgusting patience.
A couple pieces of advice:
- Try to keep the can far behind you so that you won't have to worry about it creeping toward you or being thrown into it
- Perfect shielding the clay pigeons will send them above you and out of the way
- Get familiar with the speed of Duck Hunt's up special: an easy punish

 

[Cook]

Also, he cannot kill reliably at all. When you're knocked in the air, jump and air dodge because up air is one of his best kill moves. Just use your jumps and get to the ledge if you need to. Kinda like against Yoshi.

 

[atomicblast360]

Also, he cannot kill reliably at all. When you're knocked in the air, jump and air dodge because up air is one of his best kill moves. Just use your jumps and get to the ledge if you need to. Kinda like against Yoshi.

Thanks that should help, one more question though, is it best to try and hit the can back with fair or just try and avoid it altogether? I was mainly playing on BF btw which seems like his best stage? Or at least that's what I was told.

 

[Cook]

Thanks that should help, one more question though, is it best to try and hit the can back with fair or just try and avoid it altogether? I was mainly playing on BF btw which seems like his best stage? Or at least that's what I was told.

That I do not know, since I've got pretty limited experience. Regarding the can, I mean. As for BF, imo it's a bad pick in most matchups. I have PTSD from fighting a nap there in tourney. It might be the only time I've been 3 stocked, lol.

 

[TMJ_Jack]

I have PTSD from fighting a nap there in tourney.

I had a similar experience, but it was in a Calculus class at 2 o'clock in the afternoon.

 

[Cook]

Lol, I meant fighting a Mario. Thx Swype.

 

[Karnu]

Hey guys, I picked the King up to work with Lucario. I kept him in secret but now its out I just wanted to know some great guides and videos I should watch.

 

[TMJ_Jack]

Soul Train's got your back with some shameless self-promotion.

 

[Karnu]

Thanks heaps! Watching now!