Q&A How Do I Penguin? King Dedede Q&A Thread

[Soul Train]

This feels a bit awkward to ask but I as a player come asking for advice on how to play against D3. From a few times I've lurked over here, I hear some talk about my character being one of your absolute worst matchups and tScAtt (best-placing Mega Man currently) puts D3 as +2 in our list of best MUs. And yet, there's this really good D3 my region has who often consistently places at least top 15 or 10 while barely relying on a secondary: I had to play him at a local sometime last week; I got 2-0'd and sent into losers. Played him again at another 2 days ago, I managed to take a game off him this time but I was still defeated, and later lost to him once more (though I used that time instead, but still felt rough all the same). I keep telling myself that this shouldn't be as hard as it is, but That Bair... those Gordo Ledge Traps... thatt, Bair... his damage output... that Bair... and it feels so hard to kill him due to his weight, plus he seems nearly impossible to edgeguard from his D3 Jump. I do think I'm slowly beginning to read his tendencies, but it still feels difficult dealing with these things and as good as he is, I leave myself scratching my head as to how I keep losing a matchup that should be simple.

I do feel a bit embarassed asking this knowing this and to be having such a bad time with a matchup like this. But if humiliation is the key, I'll do whatever it takes to end my lose streak against him and I'd appreciate whatever help I can get.

While I guarantee @Smooth Criminal will have some great thoughts, here's my quick rundown.

Don't be embarrassed! The entire reason D3 wins games is because people don't know how to play against him, and you're doing exactly what you should to change that.

So here's the short on the matchup: Megaman is an incredibly safe zoner who forces opponents to approach, and D3 has no safe approach. None. Combined with horrible air and groundspeed, and D3 is pretty much running into projectiles the entire match. Gordos are a huge commitment for us (>60 frames!), but are easily reflected by lemons/gear (almost no commitment for you). You can outrun, outcamp, and even out-offense us. How? Ask yourself:

Is D3 on the ground? Yes: he has literally two options - shield, or slow ground attack (jab/ftilt). Since you get to dictate spacing in this matchup, all of these are beaten by your lemons/gear into mixups (grab, slide ->uair, etc).

Is D3 in the air? Great! Due to his awful airspeed and huge commitment to anything he does from the air, you're still at a great advantage. D3's either going to Bair or fastfall Inhale/grab. Both hugely leave him open, and have a huge windup to let you see it coming. Try to learn his patterns in the air - most D3s tend to have one or two air mixups they like - one of which is usually jump jump fastfall Bair. Learn the range of Bair, sit right outside it, and punish. The second D3 lands from ANYTHING, he's punishable.

Even if you get hit a lot - once you're above 80%, D3 can't do anything to you on shield. Our grabs won't kill til 190%+, and Inhale is just lol. To kill you, D3 is forced to make a big commitment with Dsmash. Which is hugely punishable by...shield. So pester with projectiles safely, wait for the opening, and punish (your Utilt WRECKS us if you manage to shield something at close range).

With Gordo edgetraps - they're really not as scary as you think. You can often just wait a bit, then falloff instant jump to lemons which reflect Gordo and beat almost everything we have. Just don't think you have to choose a ledge getup option immediately - most D3s charge Dsmash here, which is actually really hard to land. Mix up your timings, and you should be fine.

Just don't play at D3's Ftilt range - which should be easy due to your far better movement speed - and you're fine.

So play defensive. Be annoying. Dictate the spacing in the match. Force D3 to approach, and punish whatever he does since he has the worst approach in the game. Repeat.

 

[randomguy1235]

While I guarantee @Smooth Criminal will have some great thoughts, here's my quick rundown.

Don't be embarrassed! The entire reason D3 wins games is because people don't know how to play against him, and you're doing exactly what you should to change that.

So here's the short on the matchup: Megaman is an incredibly safe zoner who forces opponents to approach, and D3 has no safe approach. None. Combined with horrible air and groundspeed, and D3 is pretty much running into projectiles the entire match. Gordos are a huge commitment for us (>60 frames!), but are easily reflected by lemons/gear (almost no commitment for you). You can outrun, outcamp, and even out-offense us. How? Ask yourself:

Is D3 on the ground? Yes: he has literally two options - shield, or slow ground attack (jab/ftilt). Since you get to dictate spacing in this matchup, all of these are beaten by your lemons/gear into mixups (grab, slide ->uair, etc).

Is D3 in the air? Great! Due to his awful airspeed and huge commitment to anything he does from the air, you're still at a great advantage. D3's either going to Bair or fastfall Inhale/grab. Both hugely leave him open, and have a huge windup to let you see it coming. Try to learn his patterns in the air - most D3s tend to have one or two air mixups they like - one of which is usually jump jump fastfall Bair. Learn the range of Bair, sit right outside it, and punish. The second D3 lands from ANYTHING, he's punishable.

Even if you get hit a lot - once you're above 80%, D3 can't do anything to you on shield. Our grabs won't kill til 140%+, and Inhale is just lol. To kill you, D3 is forced to make a big commitment with Dsmash. Which is hugely punishable by...shield. So pester with projectiles safely, wait for the opening, and punish (your Utilt WRECKS us if you manage to shield something at close range).

With Gordo edgetraps - they're really not as scary as you think. You can often just wait a bit, then falloff instant jump to lemons which reflect Gordo and beat almost everything we have. Just don't think you have to choose a ledge getup option immediately - most D3s charge Dsmash here, which is actually really hard to land. Mix up your timings, and you should be fine.

Just don't play at D3's Ftilt range - which should be easy due to your far better movement speed - and you're fine.

So play defensive. Be annoying. Dictate the spacing in the match. Force D3 to approach, and punish whatever he does since he has the worst approach in the game. Repeat.

I know this isn't the right thread to mention this, but reading this post made me quite dismayed...Here's hoping that our (mostly your) efforts to raise awareness of D3's glaring problems doesn't fall on deaf ears.

 

[abx]

I'm recently trying get the BAir chain down. But I'm a bit at loss how to achieve it consistently. Keep in mind that I'm playing on the 3DS only. Mostly I'm loosing on height and either fall to the ground or when I'm offstage I fall too much to continue hitting the opponent. I ask if someone could shed some light on the actual input required for doing this. Many royal thanks in advance!

 

[Soul Train]

I'm recently trying get the BAir chain down. But I'm a bit at loss how to achieve it consistently. Keep in mind that I'm playing on the 3DS only. Mostly I'm loosing on height and either fall to the ground or when I'm offstage I fall too much to continue hitting the opponent. I ask if someone could shed some light on the actual input required for doing this. Many royal thanks in advance!

Not quite sure what you're talking about. There are no true "Bair chains", even at 0% the opponent can always DI out. However above ~20% you can land a Bair from Dthrow, then if they DI in you can sometimes get another Bair. Is that what you mean?

 

[abx]

What I have in mind is what you see right at the beginning of this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoCNxEQBgwc

I was under the impression that throwing out BAirs is quite common, but I can't string them together like this. I usually end up failing in movement and miss my opponent.

 

[Soul Train]

What I have in mind is what you see right at the beginning of this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoCNxEQBgwc

I was under the impression that throwing out BAirs is quite common, but I can't string them together like this. I usually end up failing in movement and miss my opponent.

Oh lol. Yeah that's just against a DK at 0% who kept DI-ing in, and refused to airdodge. Definitely not something you'll pull off too often. If you just get the Dthrow to Bair at lower %s, you're doing it correctly.

 

[Karnu]

Two questions.

Is there a discord and what stages do I take Yoshi to and what's the best thing to do vs him?

 

[Soul Train]

Two questions.

Is there a discord and what stages do I take Yoshi to and what's the best thing to do vs him?

http://smashboards.com/threads/read-before-making-new-threads-the-dededirectory.421338/

Please check out the stickied threads. Link to the discord thread is in that one.

If you want character matchup advice, we have a thread dedicated to that too, and even one where we have already analyzed the matchup right here: http://smashboards.com/threads/read...going-renovations.395045/page-3#post-19254709. The short: Yoshi is a horrible matchup - he's got so many tools that all highlight our weaknesses so well. I'd take him to Battlefield to at least give you some protection from his egg approaches.

 

[Karnu]

• http://smashboards.com/threads/read-before-making-new-threads-the-dededirectory.421338/

Please check out the stickied threads. Link to the discord thread is in that one.

If you want character matchup advice, we have a thread dedicated to that too, and even one where we have already analyzed the matchup right here: http://smashboards.com/threads/read...going-renovations.395045/page-3#post-19254709. The short: Yoshi is a horrible matchup - he's got so many tools that all highlight our weaknesses so well. I'd take him to Battlefield to at least give you some protection from his egg approaches.

Ahh ok, sorry my bad I must of missed the thread, tried looking for it but obviously missed it lmao

Ok, no worries I'll ask there in the future. Thank you for advice given though. I'll ask again in the linked thread.

 

[Zef]

whats d3s best secondary

 

[Karnu]

Personally lucario and mewtwo have covered me pretty well. Though I'd imagine something like Mario would be decent secondary

 

[abx]

Given that D3 struggles notably against the majority of the tier list's upper half, I'd suggest any character with decent MU's across the board. Looking at your main list below your avatar, I have a hunch that Bayonetta might be a good start.

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

After playing a pocket Pikachu for a bit, I would actually say Pika is an amazing secondary choice for coverage. Pika is great against some of our worst MUs, like ZSS, Bayonetta, Cloud, and Mega Man. Most of the MUs Pika struggles in are characters with high air speed and ways to deal with thunderjolt, like Jigglypuff, Mario and G&W. With the exception of Mario, DDD covers most of these types of characters well, making them good counterparts. Mario is a tough one though on both ends, so maybe just get a lot of practice with that MU

If you are looking for competetive usefulness, ignore my secondary, . His MU spread is so similar to DDD's that the only MUs I prefer him in (that I have found so far) are Lucario, Samus, and Mega Man. But I love the character too much to drop him. This brings up another point, if there is a character you can do well with, and you like them a lot, I would recommend making them your secondary regardless of MU spread. You will find a way to make them work!

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Personally, I think the best secondary to cover Dedede is Diddy or as said Pikachu. Characters that can disrupt their opponents are great for dealing with Dedede's problems. I also have Wario as a secondary which also helps a lot, as his smaller frame, better approach, and greater air speed and ground speed helps enormously.

 

[JJpalmer]

Is fsmash unpunishable and is nair safish on shield fought a d3 on fg and i couldnt seem to punish either option i know very little on d3 as far moves and unsafety go so mu advice would be helpful

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Is fsmash unpunishable and is nair safish on shield fought a d3 on fg and i couldnt seem to punish either option i know very little on d3 as far moves and unsafety go so mu advice would be helpful

I am troubled with answering the first question. I think F Smash is unpunishable unless they are right behind you, but others, such as more experienced Soul Train thinks it's unsafe. And no, Nair is not safe on shield.

 

[JJpalmer]

I am troubled with answering the first question. I think F Smash is unpunishable unless they are right behind you, but others, such as more experienced Soul Train thinks it's unsafe. And no, Nair is not safe on shield.

i couldnt seem to punish it earlier maybe i was just off on my timing

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

Is fsmash unpunishable and is nair safish on shield fought a d3 on fg and i couldnt seem to punish either option i know very little on d3 as far moves and unsafety go so mu advice would be helpful

Nair is never safe on shield. If you can react fast enough, you can grab or use a fast move to punish. However, versus Ike, I'm not actually sure if you can punish F-smash on block. Ike isn't that fast and doesn't have a projectile, so he may not be able to get to Dedede in time. However, you should never shield F-smash unless it is a last resort. The move is so slow that you can simply get out of the way, attack first, or counter if you detect it early enough. If you shield it, you risk getting your shield broken and cannot punish it.

 

[alexthepony]

what do i do when i am cornered by dede

 

[MIDP]

This doubt has been haunting me forever, I am a D3 main only but I cannot seem to find a way to attach the Gordos to the wall whenever I want, I have tried multiple angles and so far they attach by luck only and I haven't found a tutorial that shows how to consistently do it, is it done by random luck?

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Gordo Toss sticking to the wall is basically a coin flip. Soul Train did a good deal of research on it a while back.

If you're interested, Bouncing Gordo (one of the side b customs) will stick 100% of the time.

 

[Soul Train]

This doubt has been haunting me forever, I am a D3 main only but I cannot seem to find a way to attach the Gordos to the wall whenever I want, I have tried multiple angles and so far they attach by luck only and I haven't found a tutorial that shows how to consistently do it, is it done by random luck?

Please check the stickied Research Thread if you want to find anything like this. The exact link to the walkthrough you're looking for:

https://youtu.be/XHYJKgD_TxQ

 

[Doctor Troggy]

So, I'm having a lot of issues against Mario as Dedede. No matter what I try, I always find myself on the receiving end of a throw combo, no matter whether or not I play defensively or go for the approach. Is there any way I can play the matchup effectively?

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

So, I'm having a lot of issues against Mario as Dedede. No matter what I try, I always find myself on the receiving end of a throw combo, no matter whether or not I play defensively or go for the approach. Is there any way I can play the matchup effectively?

Mario is a brutal matchup. You have to treat him as a much better LM. Throw him off stage, except this time don't laugh, try to fair or bair him at a distance far enough to Stick the Gordo. Mario's recovery is predictable, so cover the stuck Gordo with a bair with your back to the ledge. Overall, focus on gimping him. All I can say for his combos are DI unfortunately, Nair is too slow (Comes out frame 7) Use Gordo carefully, push the "It's a projectile" out of your mind otherwise you will take damage when it inevitably get's caped. Mario's laughable range can be abused with Side Tilt (This also stops grabs) and Down Tilt. Due to his poor recovery, Suck and Cuck is slightly effective, but most of the time he can make it back (Although a Gordo can make it tougher)

 

[famedoro]

Hi guys. I recently switch to D3 from Ryu because I wasn't tech enough too play him and went really flustered after mistakes butnow with the king I find myself a lot better, I really enjoy playing him and my results are going higher as well.
I have some technical questions for you:

1) Fsmash -> Dsmash trap
If my opponent shield the fsmash and find themselves pushed a little away, they often rush on me thinking I'm open and get punished by the Dsmash. Do this thing work on the entire cast? Can fox/falcon/sonic rush me out after the f smash and punish me instead?

2) What can beat our up air? I played with some Cloud but now I can't remember: do his down air beats our uair?

3) Can you explain me how the UpB super armor works? I read the frame data but I can't understand it very well. When it starts? when it ends? There is something that overcharge and beat the armor? I thought we have the armor when descending but a Ganondorf up smash beat my ass.

 

[SenorStacheMan]

So, I'm having a lot of issues against Mario as Dedede. No matter what I try, I always find myself on the receiving end of a throw combo, no matter whether or not I play defensively or go for the approach. Is there any way I can play the matchup effectively?

The König against Mario is a damn hard one, the only matchup I find harder is Cloud. I found that using Gordo more for utility that offence was a good way to handle him. Don't just launch things at him, he's too fast and has a cape. Now, if you can trap him with a Gordo, or get his attention focused on it, you can make some breathing room. I think it is best to go for gimps. Find a way to catch him off and gimp. The only real other way to kill him is to read a roll and punish with a dash attack or Dsmash.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Hi guys. I recently switch to D3 from Ryu because I wasn't tech enough too play him and went really flustered after mistakes butnow with the king I find myself a lot better, I really enjoy playing him and my results are going higher as well.
I have some technical questions for you:

1) Fsmash -> Dsmash trap
If my opponent shield the fsmash and find themselves pushed a little away, they often rush on me thinking I'm open and get punished by the Dsmash. Do this thing work on the entire cast? Can fox/falcon/sonic rush me out after the f smash and punish me instead?

2) What can beat our up air? I played with some Cloud but now I can't remember: do his down air beats our uair?

3) Can you explain me how the UpB super armor works? I read the frame data but I can't understand it very well. When it starts? when it ends? There is something that overcharge and beat the armor? I thought we have the armor when descending but a Ganondorf up smash beat my ***.

1.Okay, this tactic is unusual to me, since my bait and punish game is as good as Colour Splash, but I definitely think that there is a very specifc speed area of characters that this will not work on. This tactic is likely useless against the following:Sonic, Little Mac, C.Falcon, Robin and Jigglypuff. There is probably others I forget.

2. As Soul Train stated in one of his guides, Uair has good priority. From memory, I remember it beating Cloud's dair, but I could be wrong

3. Easy. The first few frames of this move lack SA. Once the fat penguin king holding a hammer defies logic by suddenly gaining the ability to burst upwards in the air, that's when he gains SA. Once the King has ended his glorious ascent, you'll notice he hangs in the air for a bit. He loses SA here, completely vulnerable to attack. But once the descent begins, he regains SA. Loses it on landing.

 

[SenorStacheMan]

1.Okay, this tactic is unusual to me, since my bait and punish game is as good as Colour Splash, but I definitely think that there is a very specifc speed area of characters that this will not work on. This tactic is likely useless against the following:Sonic, Little Mac, C.Falcon, Robin and Jigglypuff. There is probably others I forget.

2. As Soul Train stated in one of his guides, Uair has good priority. From memory, I remember it beating Cloud's dair, but I could be wrong

3. Easy. The first few frames of this move lack SA. Once the fat penguin king holding a hammer defies logic by suddenly gaining the ability to burst upwards in the air, that's when he gains SA. Once the King has ended his glorious ascent, you'll notice he hangs in the air for a bit. He loses SA here, completely vulnerable to attack. But once the descent begins, he regains SA. Loses it on landing.

Yo, that colour splash remark was just brutal.
Also, at the apex of his leap is when he looses the armor before regaining it? Never knew that before, thanks!

 

[Soul Train]

Hi guys. I recently switch to D3 from Ryu because I wasn't tech enough too play him and went really flustered after mistakes butnow with the king I find myself a lot better, I really enjoy playing him and my results are going higher as well.
I have some technical questions for you:

1) Fsmash -> Dsmash trap
If my opponent shield the fsmash and find themselves pushed a little away, they often rush on me thinking I'm open and get punished by the Dsmash. Do this thing work on the entire cast? Can fox/falcon/sonic rush me out after the f smash and punish me instead?

2) What can beat our up air? I played with some Cloud but now I can't remember: do his down air beats our uair?

3) Can you explain me how the UpB super armor works? I read the frame data but I can't understand it very well. When it starts? when it ends? There is something that overcharge and beat the armor? I thought we have the armor when descending but a Ganondorf up smash beat my ***.

Fsmash -> Dsmash is not a "trap". Fsmash is about -12 frames on block, meaning the opponent can start moving 12 frames (60ths of a second) sooner than you can. As Dsmash comes out frame 14, that means you're open for a whopping 24 frames by going for a Dsmash after Fsmash. Sure you can land this in online lag against scrubs, but that obviously doesn't affect competitive play. Fsmash is unsafe on shield against everyone not named Luigi (who is pushed farther away than most). Even Ganondorf can punish with a buffered dash attack/Wizard Foot.

Second, nothing "beats" anything else in smash - there is no move "priority" in this game. Instead, hitboxes and hurtboxes are what determine who gets hurt and who doesn't. So to ask different question: "when making contact at the same time, what moves beat D3's Uair?" Answer: Cloud's Dair, Rosa's Dair hitboxes extend so far that they intersect D3's hurtbox first. Otherwise, anyone can just aim to hit the part of D3's head not protected by the hammer.

For your third question, Eddie gave you the gist, but to be precise, UpB has Super Armor on frames 26-32, and 73-80. Meaning when D3 is in rising or falling motion.

There's a really good resource (linked in the "Resources" thread, please check that out in the future) that I'll paste here: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/King Dedede. Google anything you don't understand.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Yo, that colour splash remark was just brutal.
Also, at the apex of his leap is when he looses the armor before regaining it? Never knew that before, thanks!

My version is the short one, and Soul Train gave a more informative one. Take your pick. Yes, I actually think Super Dedede Jump is a balanced move thanks to that. The spammers would be ridiculous if they didn't do that. No problem. And Soul Train , thank you for answering his question in a more... reliable way

 

[Atomsk_92]

Oh hi guys

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Hello.... uh.. should we know you?

 

[Soul Train]

Eddie The Pacifist Atomsk is one of the original and best Dedede players, pushing the King back in Brawl probably before you even played smash competitively. I know you're new here, but please default to respect when you don't know someone here.

@Atomsk heya - in the slight chance you don't have the link, 90% of D3 conversation happens here on Discord now. This place is more of a resource database than anything else, at least right now lol

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Soul Train Pardon me. I seem to keep messing up in some format whenever you're around.
Hello Atomsk_92 , nice to meet you! It's awesome to see people sticking with King Dedede when his glory days ended.

 

[Atomsk_92]

Hello.... uh.. should we know you?

Brought a tear to my eye <3

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Brought a tear to my eye <3

I think I'm going to like you a lot based soley on that response :D

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

As a main, the great king of Dream Land has always been my favorite Nintendo character. He's the only one I ever use aside from ,, and . I've used him in a variety of Tournaments in online, and have gotten good results (of the 20 I competed in, I've won about 8).

Unfortunately, I usually have to go against ,,, and - those four in particular give me a hard time. I know that and are among our absolute worst matchups, but 9 times out of 10 they beat me. I usually try to bait out Cloud's Limit Break, though while that works, he always seems to get the rushdown on me. Link is also an issue, since his disjointed hitboxes seem to, for lack of a better term, outreach mine. Zero Suit Samus is obvious for reasons I shouldn't have to explain. Sonic is hilarious in that I can just grab/Jet Hammer (or as I like to call it F-Smash: Xtreme Version) him while he's in a Spin Dash/Spin Charge, but other than that, he seems to beat me in everything else.

I guess what I'm asking is - any tips? For Cloud specifically, since I can't find his matchup description on the board.

By the way, my name in For Glory is PhDedede. Eh? EH?

I'm not sorry.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

PhDedede is an absolutely fantastic name. You should be proud. Anyway, Cloud advice. One of the most important things you have to capitalise is Clouds only weakness (Semi-Weakness) which is recovery.His recovery is very vertical, which means that sticking the Gordo is key. Cloud can literally never avoid a stuck Gordo when he can't recover safely without use of Climahazard. Practice gimping Clouds with Stuck Gordo. Aka, practice followups from when he gets hit. Soul Train has a video on Gordo that I'll link. When dealing with Limit-Now-Broken Cloud, you have two ways of dealing with it. 1. Try to get him offstage so he has to use Limit Climahazard.
2. This is unique to those who suck (Or chomp) Try to keep away from Cloud so he's forced to use Limit Blade Beam, then use Inhale to swallow it. HOWEVER, you must be far away from Cloud, otherwise the massive end lag from eating with Inhale will get you punished. Side Tilt is vital for preventing his approach. Beware of Clouds Dair. The hitbox is enormously disjointed. If you get the opportunity, Suck and Cuck them. Clouds vertical recovery will screw him over.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHYJKgD_TxQ&list=PLux0PnToSw2VzHeD9RFCy5jE_XUm5fARk&index=3

 

[MamaLuigi123456]

PhDedede is an absolutely fantastic name. You should be proud. Anyway, Cloud advice. One of the most important things you have to capitalise is Clouds only weakness (Semi-Weakness) which is recovery.His recovery is very vertical, which means that sticking the Gordo is key. Cloud can literally never avoid a stuck Gordo when he can't recover safely without use of Climahazard. Practice gimping Clouds with Stuck Gordo. Aka, practice followups from when he gets hit. Soul Train has a video on Gordo that I'll link. When dealing with Limit-Now-Broken Cloud, you have two ways of dealing with it. 1. Try to get him offstage so he has to use Limit Climahazard.
2. This is unique to those who suck (Or chomp) Try to keep away from Cloud so he's forced to use Limit Blade Beam, then use Inhale to swallow it. HOWEVER, you must be far away from Cloud, otherwise the massive end lag from eating with Inhale will get you punished. Side Tilt is vital for preventing his approach. Beware of Clouds Dair. The hitbox is enormously disjointed. If you get the opportunity, Suck and Cuck them. Clouds vertical recovery will screw him over.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHYJKgD_TxQ&list=PLux0PnToSw2VzHeD9RFCy5jE_XUm5fARk&index=3

I know about Cloud's horrible recovery, and I've already freshened up on Gordo sticking. It's getting him off the edge is what's getting me. So far, the only method that works for me on average was spamming DTilt then a follow-up near the edge. FSmash, Dash Attack, Jet Hammer, and Super Dedede Jump are useless as you can NEVER hit him, fastfall NAir combos are useful at first, but hardly practical, BAir comes out to slow, DAir is terrible, and he can counter Inhale and Gordo Throw easier than I can use it. Really the only moves I can land are Jab, FTilt, FAir, and the occasional DSmash and UAir.

Like I said, DTilt, DTilt, follow-up seem to work fine, but I'm afraid that would get too predictable after awhile. I've tried nearly every other method, but Cloud seems to counter me in every way - I can't approach Cloud, and Dedede moves to slow to react to Cloud approaching him outside of FTilt.

I think Cloud is right up there with Sonic and Zero Suit Samus as our absolute worst matchups.

(I think the best way is to Dededecide and get both down to one stock immediately. That way, the battle will be over quicker, meaning I won't have to fight Cloud anymore, and that's a win in my book.)

 

[Cook]

Cloud is pretty awful. If you get hit offstage, he can pretty much get a free limit. Then he has greater than Yoshi air speed, plus huge sword. :-(

Idk, the best thing I've found is try to bait them to follow you to pivot ftilt. That don't do much though...

RIP