Q&A How Do I Penguin? King Dedede Q&A Thread

[vegeta18]

is ddd heavier than bowser? in training mode i tested ryu fully charged up smash on omega pyrosphere. It kills bowser at 95% but not ddd

 

[TMJ_Jack]

is ddd heavier than bowser? in training mode i tested ryu fully charged up smash on omega pyrosphere. It kills bowser at 95% but not ddd

Dedede falls faster than Bowser. Because of this, Dedede's harder to kill off the top even though he's a little lighter.

 

[Krubby]

How viable is Dedede in doubles compared to singles? Who does he partner best with?

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

How viable is Dedede in doubles compared to singles? Who does he partner best with?

Dedede is really really good in doubles. His strong ranged disjoints and survivability play a great role and the possibility for gordo setups are even crazier. Also, his poor frame data is harder to exploit with someone watching your back.

I've had a lot of success with Meta Knight as my partner personally. I think a good rule of thumb is to have a fast smaller character that combos or kills well that doesn't rely to heavily on projectiles (as to not mess over gordo). So mainly Meta Knight lol.

I can see ZSS being a great partner as well.

 

[Krubby]

Alright thanks! My best friend and I are thinking of teaming up and he plays yoshi, ganon and ike so we were wondering what would work best. sounds like yoshi

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

Alright thanks! My best friend and I are thinking of teaming up and he plays yoshi, ganon and ike so we were wondering what would work best. sounds like yoshi

Ike is an interesting possibility as well to be honest.... The combination of the disjoints would be one hell of a wall of power.

 

[Cook]

Ike is an interesting possibility as well to be honest.... The combination of the disjoints would be one hell of a wall of power.

Yeah, I was gonna say I've had a lot of success with ZSS and Ike. Also Mario.

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

Yeah, I was gonna say I've had a lot of success with ZSS and Ike. Also Mario.

I can't see Mario as much, but I wouldn't be totally surprised if it worked out.

At the moment though, I think Meta Knight is definitely at least, in the top three best partners for the King.

 

[Gattsu]

What determines the different end lag for his cancelled up b?
Sometimes it's sorta quick but sometimes he bumps his head and it's longer what causes it

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

What determines the different end lag for his cancelled up b?
Sometimes it's sorta quick but sometimes he bumps his head and it's longer what causes it

If you cancel the up-B close to the ground, the end lag will be much longer than if you cancel it earlier. It just all depends on how long it takes to hit the ground after canceling the up-B. After you get too close to the ground, it is actually faster to just hit the ground with the attack than to cancel, and its a lot safer when you hit the ground as well thanks to the stars that it produces.

 

[CollyD13]

Yo
So I'm trying to improve my neutral game with Dedede. I feel like it's my weakest part of my game. I know I should probably provide some sort of gameplay, but I don't really have any good footage as of now. Might post some whenever I get some good games in.

I feel kind of lost in the neutral. I know Dedede's neutral is kind of ass, but still, it's not really an excuse. In the neutral I mostly find myself throwing out difficult to reflect gordos, throwing out jabs and pivot f-tilts in hope that my opponent falls into them, and inhaling to try beat shields.
I've been trying to watch as much dedede footage from players like Jdawg and Big D as I can, and I notice them empty hopping a lot. Seems like it works well but I'm not entirely sure how I should be using them to my advantage.

So really, I have two main questions here: How should I be using empty hops to my advantage, and are there any other moves/options I should be using to try win the neutral?
I know this varies from match-up to match-up, but I'm hoping there's some general advice I could get. Any specific character advice is welcome though.

 

[Soul Train]

So really, I have two main questions here: How should I be using empty hops to my advantage, and are there any other moves/options I should be using to try win the neutral?
I know this varies from match-up to match-up, but I'm hoping there's some general advice I could get. Any specific character advice is welcome though.

The point is to stay unpredictable. You have five jumps and great fall speed - use that to your advantage. You can play a very grounded, shield-punish based game, or maybe play floaty and try to mix up with a falling Bair/Inhale. Some other options I like to use in Neutral:

• Fullhop Fair, fastfall, Ftilt (a nice wall).
• RAR Bair, land, Ftilt. Mixup version: RAR Bair, jump before hitting the ground, Bair again or Inhale.
• Pivot Ftilt to punish aerial offense
• Using Fullhop DGordo as I outlined here, then approach with mixup of choice.

Overall D3 just isn't built to approach. He's better (still not great) at punishing the opponent's mistakes instead - so focus on watching them, baiting them into a commitment, noticing their habits, and punishing.

On a totally different topic: who here knows code? Here's the code for Gordo, can anyone help interpret it? I put the code just for the Gordo when it's sticking to a wall in the spoiler code below; does any of this help us determine what makes Gordo stick?

Spoiler: Gordo Code

018 - 0XB1E88656L - B1E88656
params: {0, 0, IASA?=1, 0, 0, 0}

Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(Id=0x0, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x0, Damage=10.000000, Angle=0x4b, BKB=0x32, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x32, Size=5.000000, X=0.000000, Y=7.000000, 0.000000, 0x2, 0x0, 1.000000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x2, 0x2, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x1, 0x0, 0x3c, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)

End()

019 - 0XB59FDE4FL - B59FDE4F

params: {0, 0, IASA?=1, 0, 0, 0}

Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(Id=0x0, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x0, Damage=10.000000, Angle=0x4b, BKB=0x32, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x32, Size=5.000000, X=0.000000, Y=7.000000, 0.000000, 0x2, 0x0, 1.000000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x2, 0x2, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x1, 0x0, 0x3c, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)

End()

01A - 0XC298EED9L - C298EED9

params: {0, 0, IASA?=1, 0, 0, 0}

Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(Id=0x0, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x0, Damage=10.000000, Angle=0x4b, BKB=0x32, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x32, Size=5.000000, X=0.000000, Y=7.000000, 0.000000, 0x3, 0x0, 1.000000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x2, 0x2, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x1, 0x0, 0x3c, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)

I know this chunk of code refers to "stuck" Gordo as that's the only time it does 10 damage. Then...there are three code blocks of "stuck" Gordo code? The first two look identical, the third only has a few small differences. What do all these "0x0" things mean? as you can tell I am a 1337 h@ck0r

 

[Silly Symphony]

On a totally different topic: who here knows code? Here's the code for Gordo, can anyone help interpret it? I put the code just for the Gordo when it's sticking to a wall in the spoiler code below; does any of this help us determine what makes Gordo stick?

Going as deep as humanly possible to fully understand Gordo maths.

Now I don't know much coding, only basic coding logic, but after having generally read through the code in the spoiler, I think that the part that decides if Gordo sticks is not in it. I think the part in spoiler is the part when the Gordo is stuck and that the part of whether it sticks comes just before.

The reason why I think this is because I think:

- the part that says 'params' decides the direction of a moving Gordo.
- hitbox is well... decides the hit and hurtboxes.

I think the 0x0 mean the direction of the hitbox which, because stationary, is 0x0 because it isn't moving.

PS: this is just what I think. I don't know coding well. I think the clue what makes Gordo stick comes before the part in spoilers.

Edit: I just thought about this too. Gordo's timer resets when it sticks. So, if you're scanning through the code and notice anything that indicates a timer change or reset, you must be getting close. Also look out for anything with a symbol like degrees or percentages, because those usually indicate angle.

We also know that how long a Gordo has been out or how much damage it does, doesn't matter to sticking. You can stick a Gordo that has just come out, but you can also stick them when they bounce on stage, on an enemy and then onto the ledge. So what determines 'sticking' must be the angle.

 

[Furret]

does any of this help us determine what makes Gordo stick?

no this only tells us what it does when it sticks

Finding the part when it sticks would be really hard. since it wouldn't have standard data surrounding it
ie; hit angles, damage, ect

 

[Soul Train]

no this only tells us what it does when it sticks

Finding the part when it sticks would be really hard. since it wouldn't have standard data surrounding it
ie; hit angles, damage, ect

Yeah. But it's somewhere in here, dangit. They coded Gordo trajectories and wall sticks in some bloody place. Ok, here's the overall code for D3. Check it out, scroll down just past halfway down the page, it starts code for Special moves. On 2B2 - is this Gordo? It looks strangely similar to the Gordo data posted above.

Spoiler: Gordo?

2B2 - SPECIALHILANDINGR_C2 - EF1AEE71
params: {0, 0, IASA?=1, 0, 61, 0}

unk?_2A25155D(0x0, 0x0)
AsynchronousTimer(3.000000)#frame 3
Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(Id=0x0, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x0, Damage=8.000000, Angle=0x5a, BKB=0x64, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x50, Size=7.000000, X=0.000000, Y=4.000000, 0.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 1.000000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x3, 0xf, 0x3, 0x1, 0x2, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(Id=0x1, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x0, Damage=8.000000, Angle=0x46, BKB=0x50, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x50, Size=9.000000, X=0.000000, Y=7.000000, 8.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 1.000000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x3, 0xf, 0x1, 0x1, 0x2, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(Id=0x2, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x0, Damage=8.000000, Angle=0x46, BKB=0x50, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x50, Size=9.000000, X=0.000000, Y=7.000000, -8.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 1.000000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x3, 0xf, 0x1, 0x1, 0x2, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 5
RemoveAllHitboxes()
End()

2B3 - SPECIALHILANDINGR_C3 - 981DDEE7
params: {0, 0, IASA?=1, 0, 61, 0}

unk?_2A25155D(0x0, 0x0)
unk_CEDC237E(0x0)
AsynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 2
unk_95794508(0x3f800000, 0x0)
AsynchronousTimer(3.000000)#frame 3
Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(Id=0x0, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x0, Damage=6.000000, Angle=0x5a, BKB=0x64, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x50, Size=7.000000, X=0.000000, Y=4.000000, 0.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0.800000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x3, 0xf, 0x3, 0x1, 0x2, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(Id=0x1, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x0, Damage=6.000000, Angle=0x46, BKB=0x50, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x50, Size=11.000000, X=0.000000, Y=7.000000, 10.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0.800000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x3, 0xf, 0x1, 0x1, 0x2, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(Id=0x2, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x0, Damage=6.000000, Angle=0x46, BKB=0x50, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x50, Size=11.000000, X=0.000000, Y=7.000000, -10.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0.800000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x3, 0xf, 0x1, 0x1, 0x2, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 5
?SetBit(0x21000010)
unk_23A9AC4B(0x2)
?SetBit(0x21000011)
unk_23A9AC4B(0x2)
RemoveAllHitboxes()
End()

 

[Furret]

Yeah. But it's somewhere in here, dangit. They coded Gordo trajectories and wall sticks in some bloody place. Ok, here's the overall code for D3. Check it out, scroll down just past halfway down the page, it starts code for Special moves. On 2B2 - is this Gordo? It looks strangely similar to the Gordo data posted above.

Spoiler: Gordo?

2B2 - SPECIALHILANDINGR_C2 - EF1AEE71
params: {0, 0, IASA?=1, 0, 61, 0}

unk?_2A25155D(0x0, 0x0)
AsynchronousTimer(3.000000)#frame 3
Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(Id=0x0, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x0, Damage=8.000000, Angle=0x5a, BKB=0x64, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x50, Size=7.000000, X=0.000000, Y=4.000000, 0.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 1.000000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x3, 0xf, 0x3, 0x1, 0x2, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(Id=0x1, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x0, Damage=8.000000, Angle=0x46, BKB=0x50, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x50, Size=9.000000, X=0.000000, Y=7.000000, 8.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 1.000000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x3, 0xf, 0x1, 0x1, 0x2, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(Id=0x2, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x0, Damage=8.000000, Angle=0x46, BKB=0x50, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x50, Size=9.000000, X=0.000000, Y=7.000000, -8.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 1.000000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x3, 0xf, 0x1, 0x1, 0x2, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 5
RemoveAllHitboxes()
End()

2B3 - SPECIALHILANDINGR_C3 - 981DDEE7
params: {0, 0, IASA?=1, 0, 61, 0}

unk?_2A25155D(0x0, 0x0)
unk_CEDC237E(0x0)
AsynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 2
unk_95794508(0x3f800000, 0x0)
AsynchronousTimer(3.000000)#frame 3
Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(Id=0x0, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x0, Damage=6.000000, Angle=0x5a, BKB=0x64, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x50, Size=7.000000, X=0.000000, Y=4.000000, 0.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0.800000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x3, 0xf, 0x3, 0x1, 0x2, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(Id=0x1, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x0, Damage=6.000000, Angle=0x46, BKB=0x50, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x50, Size=11.000000, X=0.000000, Y=7.000000, 10.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0.800000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x3, 0xf, 0x1, 0x1, 0x2, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(Id=0x2, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x0, Damage=6.000000, Angle=0x46, BKB=0x50, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x50, Size=11.000000, X=0.000000, Y=7.000000, -10.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0.800000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x3, 0xf, 0x1, 0x1, 0x2, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 5
?SetBit(0x21000010)
unk_23A9AC4B(0x2)
?SetBit(0x21000011)
unk_23A9AC4B(0x2)
RemoveAllHitboxes()
End()

I'll check the files in a while I have some errands to run
do me a favor though it'll help me if you can get it to me by the time I get back
how much does the hammer swing and the gordo itself do on side b with out customs

Edit: back working on it now

 

[Soul Train]

I'll check the files in a while I have some errands to run
do me a favor though it'll help me if you can get it to me by the time I get back
how much does the hammer swing and the gordo itself do on side b with out customs

Hammer does 10%.
Gordo damage decreases with every bounce: 14%, 12.5%, 11%, and 9.5%.
Gordo when stuck to the wall does 10%.

Here's the link to D3's frame and damage data, I use this as a reference.

 

[Furret]

Hammer does 10.
Gordo damage decreases with every bounce: 14%, 12.5%, 11%, and 9.5%.
Gordo when stuck to the wall does 10%.

Here's the link to D3's frame and damage data, I use this as a reference.

lemme be too lazy to use kuro's site, I should get around to sending him some updated info on dedede's side b while I'm at it. Although he prob just neglected the move, I would. He has more methods of testing these things after all. Either way, I like to report everything it's a bit of a habit

anyways some interesting things here. gordo hitbox not only gets weaker but it gets smaller while it is out, that's all that I can get out of gordo hitbox itself, nothing else is different among the hitboxes. additionally the customs appear to have the same hitbox size through out so chances are it's not attached to that either

hm appears to be no differences in grounded and air versions of the move, the non gordo version is different in a few ways though, but nothing that will give us the info we are after

unfortunately i have little skill with params in smash 4

subRoutine?_FA1BC28A(0xb806a457L)

this appears to be the line for turning the gordo into a hitbox, doing all the things after it is released

params: {779, 779, IASA?=0, 6, 0, 0}
GAME
unk_F0D25BDA(0x3)
AsynchronousTimer(4.000000)#frame 4
?SetBit(0x21000006)
End()

this one, i can't determine. might be the thing that determines how the gordo flies

TLDR; not really anything that I can determine specifically, you might want to ask someone with some more experience/skill then me. I'm not really rusty as I am outdated. I'm sure there are others that can do a better job then me

 

[Soul Train]

TLDR; not really anything that I can determine specifically, you might want to ask someone with some more experience/skill then me. I'm not really rusty as I am outdated. I'm sure there are other that can do a better job then me

Very grateful already for the direction and time you've given this. Any recommendations someone who might be able to dig into more of this?

 

[Furret]

Very grateful already for the direction and time you've given this. Any recommendations someone who might be able to dig into more of this?

BJN39 and Indigo Jeans pretty much gave me all the knowledge I have on the data dumps.

• BJ seems to like to inform people that he/she has tag alerts off.

generic comment

fairly certain that quote alerts are still on

• Jeans I haven't seen in a while, he could be on some other account for all I know.
• I'd also link the smash 4 group that works with the game's file but sadly I have forgotten the thread.
• there is dantarion who shares the data. I don't really know him, but he's almost always busy
• Lastly Thinkaman is pretty much the guy to determine most of what the frame data was the first place. don't know him that well either, guy works with the game more then anyone else.

Keep in mind you do need to convince someone it's worth their time, anyone who works with the game's files generally has their own agenda. So be polite and don't get shocked if you get rejected

 

[BJN39]

BJN39

We're talking about a gordo movement param?

I'm not sure if those parameters are what would show changes to gordo movements.

Was something there changed recently and the only notable thing is a possible gordo movement change?

I'm not sure either way. I'll send it up the ladder

Lavani

Tbh levnei is probably tagged 25/8 because he's good at answering data questions....

 

[Furret]

We're talking about a gordo movement param?

more specifically the param that causes the gordo to stick to walls
thanks BJ

 

[Lavani]

Nothing in http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore3/dump/160/dedede_gordo is going to tell you how Gordos stick. At best, maybe the bit set on frame 4 of SPECIALSSTART tells you when it can begin to stick, but I think that more likely correlates to when it can be reflected or somesuch.

I was going to suggest looking at its item file to see if such properties were visible there, but...I don't see Gordos in the item folder, so I'm not sure where else to look. Unless it's just named differently there for whatever reason, but I don't know why that would be.

edit: actually unira's item folder file doesn't say anything about how it sticks to walls either, so I guess that wouldn't have been right anyway

edit2: I found a motion.mtable file but I don't know how to open it

 

[Furret]

Nothing in http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore3/dump/160/dedede_gordo is going to tell you how Gordos stick. At best, maybe the bit set on frame 4 of SPECIALSSTART tells you when it can begin to stick, but I think that more likely correlates to when it can be reflected or somesuch.

I was going to suggest looking at its item file to see if such properties were visible there, but...I don't see Gordos in the item folder, so I'm not sure where else to look.

ya I kind of got to the same dead end, but that 4 frame action can't be that, gordos can be reflected before they are launched.
additionally it seems to be like 30 frames before a gordo can stick, but even then they seem to act very randomly

 

[Soul Train]

Nothing in http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore3/dump/160/dedede_gordo is going to tell you how Gordos stick. At best, maybe the bit set on frame 4 of SPECIALSSTART tells you when it can begin to stick, but I think that more likely correlates to when it can be reflected or somesuch.

First, I really appreciate you looking at this, you time is hugely valued. We've been researching the Gordo edge stick for some time on the D3 boards - see here for a video of the issue, starting at 1:06. I've done a lot of slowdown analysis, and know a few things. Gordo behavior isn't random, and is definitely repeatable when frame perfect, unique to each stage's edge. Also, Gordo can stick just about anytime after D3 hits it - as shown in the beginning of the vid where Gordo sticks immediately after contact, then later in the vid after a few jumps.

However, the issue (again, highlighted at 1:06) is that Gordo sometimes clips through or bounces off the stage without sticking. My question is why - is it all just relative to a certain portion of the Gordo hitbox making contact with the stage? Or can it stick only in very precise frame intervals? Does Gordo clip through when it's a pixel too far away, vice versa for bouncing off? Not easy questions, but I'm confident...that something in the code controls this.

Again, thanks a million for any and all help with this. It's been plaguing me since I first picked up the character.

 

[Furret]

First, I really appreciate you looking at this, you time is hugely valued. We've been researching the Gordo edge stick for some time on the D3 boards - see here for a video of the issue, starting at 1:06. I've done a lot of slowdown analysis, and know a few things. Gordo behavior isn't random, and is definitely repeatable when frame perfect, unique to each stage's edge. Also, Gordo can stick just about anytime after D3 hits it - as shown in the beginning of the vid where Gordo sticks immediately after contact, then later in the vid after a few jumps.

However, the issue (again, highlighted at 1:06) is that Gordo sometimes clips through or bounces off the stage without sticking. My question is why - is it all just relative to a certain portion of the Gordo hitbox making contact with the stage? Or can it stick only in very precise frame intervals? Does Gordo clip through when it's a pixel too far away, vice versa for bouncing off? Not easy questions, but I'm confident...that something in the code controls this.

Again, thanks a million for any and all help with this. It's been plaguing me since I first picked up the character.

ya I've experienced this a few times, but there's nothing here that wouldn't give me clairvoyance. Through a video and examples you're better off asking other mains

just remember these things take time

 

[Lavani]

Again, thanks a million for any and all help with this. It's been plaguing me since I first picked up the character.

I think we all felt that way when we first learned Gordos could stick to walls, haha

So, I do have a few theories.

1. If sticking is a movement/angle related thing, it might be coded in motion.mtable, but I don't know how to open that so I'll drop it here in case someone else does.
2. Kind of a tie-in with #1 - if they are coded for specific angles, it's likely that clipping into the stage/rounded stage ledges/shoddy coding/<insert other reasons> is simply to blame for the inconsistency.
3. The hitbox needs to hit the wall before the Gordo does to stick. Highly doubtful, as vertically thrown Gordos would be easy to get to stick otherwise and similarly Gordos thrown from up high would frequently shrink too much to ever stick by the time they reached a wall. Also probably would've been super easy to get Gordos to wall stick in 1.0.0 before their hitbox size was nerfed, and I don't remember that being the case.

I'll report back if I find anything else out, but as it currently stands all my cards are on the table.

 

[Furret]

shoddy coding

we already know the game has that, forgotten wectoring already?

 

[Lavani]

that's why I mentioned it

though less because of wectoring and more because of pits being able to clip through ledges, pacman being able to throw the hydrant through the stage or send other players through with the trampoline, and certain dthrows being able to stagespike

I think all of that's patched now, but I still don't place much faith in the game's collision detection

edit: going to rule out the hitbox theory, unpatched to 1.0.0 and it doesn't feel any easier to stick Gordos to ledges

 

[Soul Train]

I think we all felt that way when we first learned Gordos could stick to walls, haha

So, I do have a few theories.

1. If sticking is a movement/angle related thing, it might be coded in motion.mtable, but I don't know how to open that so I'll drop it here in case someone else does.
2. Kind of a tie-in with #1 - if they are coded for specific angles, it's likely that clipping into the stage/rounded stage ledges/shoddy coding/<insert other reasons> is simply to blame for the inconsistency.
3. The hitbox needs to hit the wall before the Gordo does to stick. Highly doubtful, as vertically thrown Gordos would be easy to get to stick otherwise and similarly Gordos thrown from up high would frequently shrink too much to ever stick by the time they reached a wall. Also probably would've been super easy to get Gordos to wall stick in 1.0.0 before their hitbox size was nerfed, and I don't remember that being the case.

I'll report back if I find anything else out, but as it currently stands all my cards are on the table.

Great thoughts. I'll incorporate this into my next video breakdown; as mod for the D3 board, we massively thank you. I can confirm that Gordo sticking remains identical now compared to Day 1 3DS. I made a breakdown for that back then, and the techniques still stand. Hah, and still the mystery of Gordo lives on - if you know of anyone that might know how to open that motion.mtable, let me know and I'll gladly make the plea.

You guys rock.

 

[TMJ_Jack]

Would someone mind helping with ROB stuff this weekend? I need to learn how to do the gyro stuff.

 

[Sir Floats]

Hey, quick question about D3 vs. Ryu... can D3 get out of his Utilt --> Shoryuken?

 

[Soul Train]

Hey, quick question about D3 vs. Ryu... can D3 get out of his Utilt --> Shoryuken?

...your profile pic made me doubletake. I used it for awhile, lol.

To answer: yes, D3 can. Mash up and away, then airdodge.

However Ryu's Jab->Shoryuken is NOT DI-able. That is a legit scary thing.

 

[Sir Floats]

Thanks, I think that should help me quite a lot.

Funny about the profile pic, I just found it on Google Images.... did you make it?

Also another question - this time for against Villager. How should I be playing when they use Lloyd a lot? I often get my Gordos back in my face, becuase of Lloyd.

 

[Axel311]

Thanks, I think that should help me quite a lot.

Funny about the profile pic, I just found it on Google Images.... did you make it?

Also another question - this time for against Villager. How should I be playing when they use Lloyd a lot? I often get my Gordon's back in my face, becuase of Lloyd.

Really can't and shouldn't use gordos hardly at all in neutral against villager. Not only his lloyd but his slingshot is a nightmare when it comes to gordo reflections. In neutral you have to rely on powershielding and approach him slowly.

One thing that's cool though. If he happens to pocket a gordo, many villagers will often throw them back at you haphazardly. If you manage to reflect a pocketed gordo with nair or dtilt, if it hits him it will KO at any percent I'm pretty sure. Just cool to know, not all that practical though.

 

[Gattsu]

Does Kirby with the hammer buff now kill earlier than King Dedede's down b?

 

[Muskrat Catcher]

I thought he killed earlier even before the buff! I want to know why this small little puffball swinging a mallet is more powerful than a giant penguin swinging a giant hammer with a friggin JET TURBINE POWERING THE SWING! Also, Kirby gets invincibility when he swings I'm pretty sure, or was it armor? Either way he can hit Charizard out of Flare Blitz by eating up the explosion while swinging. Why can't we do that?

 

[Sir Floats]

I thought he killed earlier even before the buff! I want to know why this small little puffball swinging a mallet is more powerful than a giant penguin swinging a giant hammer with a friggin JET TURBINE POWERING THE SWING! Also, Kirby gets invincibility when he swings I'm pretty sure, or was it armor? Either way he can hit Charizard out of Flare Blitz by eating up the explosion while swinging. Why can't we do that?

Never even thought of that... but now that I do that makes no sense! Isn't D3 about 4 times the size?

 

[Funkermonster]

This feels a bit awkward to ask but I as a player come asking for advice on how to play against D3. From a few times I've lurked over here, I hear some talk about my character being one of your absolute worst matchups and tScAtt (best-placing Mega Man currently) puts D3 as +2 in our list of best MUs. And yet, there's this really good D3 my region has who often consistently places at least top 15 or 10 while barely relying on a secondary: I had to play him at a local sometime last week; I got 2-0'd and sent into losers. Played him again at another 2 days ago, I managed to take a game off him this time but I was still defeated, and later lost to him once more (though I used that time instead, but still felt rough all the same). I keep telling myself that this shouldn't be as hard as it is, but That Bair... those Gordo Ledge Traps... thatt, Bair... his damage output... that Bair... and it feels so hard to kill him due to his weight, plus he seems nearly impossible to edgeguard from his D3 Jump. I do think I'm slowly beginning to read his tendencies, but it still feels difficult dealing with these things and as good as he is, I leave myself scratching my head as to how I keep losing a matchup that should be simple.

I do feel a bit embarassed asking this knowing this and to be having such a bad time with a matchup like this. But if humiliation is the key, I'll do whatever it takes to end my lose streak against him and I'd appreciate whatever help I can get.

 

[abx]

No need to be ashamed.

Megaman has plenty of tools to make King D's day worse. Megaman should have an easy time shutting Gordos down. Do this as often as possible without exposing yourself to interrupt with King D's most important tool. Play a more defensive game and force King D to approach. Usually when King D is actually forced to approach it's a negative match up most likely. Ground attempts can be shut down by neutral a (lemons? I'm not familiar with Megaman. I'm referring to these tiny white projectiles) or the gear-wheel. Grabbing the opponent is somewhat important for King D, so be prepared. In air be careful about this range. Megaman has an impressive air game, but I believe he at least doesn't beat King D consistently, if at all. But juggle King D from below when you can. Once you shut him out consistently, he can't do very much. He might outplay you, so don't get predictable anyway. And consider using set ups for USmash or DSmash for scoring. Megaman can actually KO vertically and it's a good thing to cover DDD's recovery. Don't even bother with gimping. In any case you should try to launch DDD directly into the blast zone. Prepare covering his get up options instead. I'm not so sure about it, but I guess Megamann has splendid tools for this. Generally, be careful with dash attacks or DTilt. Every Megaman I could handle with DDD gave out free punishes to me. If you don't use them anyway, that's fine. I'm just sayin'.