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Dedede falls faster than Bowser. Because of this, Dedede's harder to kill off the top even though he's a little lighter.is ddd heavier than bowser? in training mode i tested ryu fully charged up smash on omega pyrosphere. It kills bowser at 95% but not ddd
Dedede is really really good in doubles. His strong ranged disjoints and survivability play a great role and the possibility for gordo setups are even crazier. Also, his poor frame data is harder to exploit with someone watching your back.How viable is Dedede in doubles compared to singles? Who does he partner best with?
Ike is an interesting possibility as well to be honest.... The combination of the disjoints would be one hell of a wall of power.Alright thanks! My best friend and I are thinking of teaming up and he plays yoshi, ganon and ike so we were wondering what would work best. sounds like yoshi
Yeah, I was gonna say I've had a lot of success with ZSS and Ike. Also Mario.Ike is an interesting possibility as well to be honest.... The combination of the disjoints would be one hell of a wall of power.
I can't see Mario as much, but I wouldn't be totally surprised if it worked out.Yeah, I was gonna say I've had a lot of success with ZSS and Ike. Also Mario.
If you cancel the up-B close to the ground, the end lag will be much longer than if you cancel it earlier. It just all depends on how long it takes to hit the ground after canceling the up-B. After you get too close to the ground, it is actually faster to just hit the ground with the attack than to cancel, and its a lot safer when you hit the ground as well thanks to the stars that it produces.What determines the different end lag for his cancelled up b?
Sometimes it's sorta quick but sometimes he bumps his head and it's longer what causes it
The point is to stay unpredictable. You have five jumps and great fall speed - use that to your advantage. You can play a very grounded, shield-punish based game, or maybe play floaty and try to mix up with a falling Bair/Inhale. Some other options I like to use in Neutral:So really, I have two main questions here: How should I be using empty hops to my advantage, and are there any other moves/options I should be using to try win the neutral?
I know this varies from match-up to match-up, but I'm hoping there's some general advice I could get. Any specific character advice is welcome though.
Going as deep as humanly possible to fully understand Gordo maths.On a totally different topic: who here knows code? Here's the code for Gordo, can anyone help interpret it? I put the code just for the Gordo when it's sticking to a wall in the spoiler code below; does any of this help us determine what makes Gordo stick?
no this only tells us what it does when it sticksdoes any of this help us determine what makes Gordo stick?
Yeah. But it's somewhere in here, dangit. They coded Gordo trajectories and wall sticks in some bloody place. Ok, here's the overall code for D3. Check it out, scroll down just past halfway down the page, it starts code for Special moves. On 2B2 - is this Gordo? It looks strangely similar to the Gordo data posted above.no this only tells us what it does when it sticks
Finding the part when it sticks would be really hard. since it wouldn't have standard data surrounding it
ie; hit angles, damage, ect
I'll check the files in a while I have some errands to runYeah. But it's somewhere in here, dangit. They coded Gordo trajectories and wall sticks in some bloody place. Ok, here's the overall code for D3. Check it out, scroll down just past halfway down the page, it starts code for Special moves. On 2B2 - is this Gordo? It looks strangely similar to the Gordo data posted above.
2B2 - SPECIALHILANDINGR_C2 - EF1AEE71
params: {0, 0, IASA?=1, 0, 61, 0}
unk?_2A25155D(0x0, 0x0)
AsynchronousTimer(3.000000)#frame 3
Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(Id=0x0, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x0, Damage=8.000000, Angle=0x5a, BKB=0x64, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x50, Size=7.000000, X=0.000000, Y=4.000000, 0.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 1.000000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x3, 0xf, 0x3, 0x1, 0x2, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(Id=0x1, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x0, Damage=8.000000, Angle=0x46, BKB=0x50, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x50, Size=9.000000, X=0.000000, Y=7.000000, 8.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 1.000000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x3, 0xf, 0x1, 0x1, 0x2, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(Id=0x2, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x0, Damage=8.000000, Angle=0x46, BKB=0x50, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x50, Size=9.000000, X=0.000000, Y=7.000000, -8.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 1.000000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x3, 0xf, 0x1, 0x1, 0x2, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 5
RemoveAllHitboxes()
End()
2B3 - SPECIALHILANDINGR_C3 - 981DDEE7
params: {0, 0, IASA?=1, 0, 61, 0}
unk?_2A25155D(0x0, 0x0)
unk_CEDC237E(0x0)
AsynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 2
unk_95794508(0x3f800000, 0x0)
AsynchronousTimer(3.000000)#frame 3
Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(Id=0x0, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x0, Damage=6.000000, Angle=0x5a, BKB=0x64, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x50, Size=7.000000, X=0.000000, Y=4.000000, 0.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0.800000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x3, 0xf, 0x3, 0x1, 0x2, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(Id=0x1, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x0, Damage=6.000000, Angle=0x46, BKB=0x50, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x50, Size=11.000000, X=0.000000, Y=7.000000, 10.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0.800000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x3, 0xf, 0x1, 0x1, 0x2, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(Id=0x2, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x0, Damage=6.000000, Angle=0x46, BKB=0x50, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x50, Size=11.000000, X=0.000000, Y=7.000000, -10.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0.800000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x3, 0xf, 0x1, 0x1, 0x2, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 5
?SetBit(0x21000010)
unk_23A9AC4B(0x2)
?SetBit(0x21000011)
unk_23A9AC4B(0x2)
RemoveAllHitboxes()
End()
Hammer does 10%.I'll check the files in a while I have some errands to run
do me a favor though it'll help me if you can get it to me by the time I get back
how much does the hammer swing and the gordo itself do on side b with out customs
lemme be too lazy to use kuro's site, I should get around to sending him some updated info on dedede's side b while I'm at it. Although he prob just neglected the move, I would. He has more methods of testing these things after all. Either way, I like to report everything it's a bit of a habitHammer does 10.
Gordo damage decreases with every bounce: 14%, 12.5%, 11%, and 9.5%.
Gordo when stuck to the wall does 10%.
Here's the link to D3's frame and damage data, I use this as a reference.
this appears to be the line for turning the gordo into a hitbox, doing all the things after it is releasedsubRoutine?_FA1BC28A(0xb806a457L)
this one, i can't determine. might be the thing that determines how the gordo fliesparams: {779, 779, IASA?=0, 6, 0, 0}
GAME
unk_F0D25BDA(0x3)
AsynchronousTimer(4.000000)#frame 4
?SetBit(0x21000006)
End()
Very grateful already for the direction and time you've given this. Any recommendations someone who might be able to dig into more of this?TLDR; not really anything that I can determine specifically, you might want to ask someone with some more experience/skill then me. I'm not really rusty as I am outdated. I'm sure there are other that can do a better job then me
BJN39 and Indigo Jeans pretty much gave me all the knowledge I have on the data dumps.Very grateful already for the direction and time you've given this. Any recommendations someone who might be able to dig into more of this?
fairly certain that quote alerts are still ongeneric comment
We're talking about a gordo movement param?BJN39
more specifically the param that causes the gordo to stick to wallsWe're talking about a gordo movement param?
ya I kind of got to the same dead end, but that 4 frame action can't be that, gordos can be reflected before they are launched.Nothing in http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore3/dump/160/dedede_gordo is going to tell you how Gordos stick. At best, maybe the bit set on frame 4 of SPECIALSSTART tells you when it can begin to stick, but I think that more likely correlates to when it can be reflected or somesuch.
I was going to suggest looking at its item file to see if such properties were visible there, but...I don't see Gordos in the item folder, so I'm not sure where else to look.
First, I really appreciate you looking at this, you time is hugely valued. We've been researching the Gordo edge stick for some time on the D3 boards - see here for a video of the issue, starting at 1:06. I've done a lot of slowdown analysis, and know a few things. Gordo behavior isn't random, and is definitely repeatable when frame perfect, unique to each stage's edge. Also, Gordo can stick just about anytime after D3 hits it - as shown in the beginning of the vid where Gordo sticks immediately after contact, then later in the vid after a few jumps.Nothing in http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore3/dump/160/dedede_gordo is going to tell you how Gordos stick. At best, maybe the bit set on frame 4 of SPECIALSSTART tells you when it can begin to stick, but I think that more likely correlates to when it can be reflected or somesuch.
ya I've experienced this a few times, but there's nothing here that wouldn't give me clairvoyance. Through a video and examples you're better off asking other mainsFirst, I really appreciate you looking at this, you time is hugely valued. We've been researching the Gordo edge stick for some time on the D3 boards - see here for a video of the issue, starting at 1:06. I've done a lot of slowdown analysis, and know a few things. Gordo behavior isn't random, and is definitely repeatable when frame perfect, unique to each stage's edge. Also, Gordo can stick just about anytime after D3 hits it - as shown in the beginning of the vid where Gordo sticks immediately after contact, then later in the vid after a few jumps.
However, the issue (again, highlighted at 1:06) is that Gordo sometimes clips through or bounces off the stage without sticking. My question is why - is it all just relative to a certain portion of the Gordo hitbox making contact with the stage? Or can it stick only in very precise frame intervals? Does Gordo clip through when it's a pixel too far away, vice versa for bouncing off? Not easy questions, but I'm confident...that something in the code controls this.
Again, thanks a million for any and all help with this. It's been plaguing me since I first picked up the character.
I think we all felt that way when we first learned Gordos could stick to walls, hahaAgain, thanks a million for any and all help with this. It's been plaguing me since I first picked up the character.
we already know the game has that, forgotten wectoring already?shoddy coding
Great thoughts. I'll incorporate this into my next video breakdown; as mod for the D3 board, we massively thank you. I can confirm that Gordo sticking remains identical now compared to Day 1 3DS. I made a breakdown for that back then, and the techniques still stand. Hah, and still the mystery of Gordo lives on - if you know of anyone that might know how to open that motion.mtable, let me know and I'll gladly make the plea.I think we all felt that way when we first learned Gordos could stick to walls, haha
So, I do have a few theories.
1. If sticking is a movement/angle related thing, it might be coded in motion.mtable, but I don't know how to open that so I'll drop it here in case someone else does.
2. Kind of a tie-in with #1 - if they are coded for specific angles, it's likely that clipping into the stage/rounded stage ledges/shoddy coding/<insert other reasons> is simply to blame for the inconsistency.
3. The hitbox needs to hit the wall before the Gordo does to stick. Highly doubtful, as vertically thrown Gordos would be easy to get to stick otherwise and similarly Gordos thrown from up high would frequently shrink too much to ever stick by the time they reached a wall. Also probably would've been super easy to get Gordos to wall stick in 1.0.0 before their hitbox size was nerfed, and I don't remember that being the case.
I'll report back if I find anything else out, but as it currently stands all my cards are on the table.
...your profile pic made me doubletake. I used it for awhile, lol.Hey, quick question about D3 vs. Ryu... can D3 get out of his Utilt --> Shoryuken?
Really can't and shouldn't use gordos hardly at all in neutral against villager. Not only his lloyd but his slingshot is a nightmare when it comes to gordo reflections. In neutral you have to rely on powershielding and approach him slowly.Thanks, I think that should help me quite a lot.
Funny about the profile pic, I just found it on Google Images.... did you make it?
Also another question - this time for against Villager. How should I be playing when they use Lloyd a lot? I often get my Gordon's back in my face, becuase of Lloyd.
Never even thought of that... but now that I do that makes no sense! Isn't D3 about 4 times the size?I thought he killed earlier even before the buff! I want to know why this small little puffball swinging a mallet is more powerful than a giant penguin swinging a giant hammer with a friggin JET TURBINE POWERING THE SWING! Also, Kirby gets invincibility when he swings I'm pretty sure, or was it armor? Either way he can hit Charizard out of Flare Blitz by eating up the explosion while swinging. Why can't we do that?