Q&A How Do I Penguin? King Dedede Q&A Thread

[Soul Train]

Yep that's what I meant with the gordo's, I heard someone talking about B reversing gordo's on another thread and had no clue what he was talking about. Then I saw a thread about B reversing saying you could B reverse side b's but it must have been wrong.

Personally I never use gordos down, as I can do anything with neutral and up. Also you cant b reverse gordos, only neutral specials because you can't imput a direction. If you mean just side-b'ing the opposite way, it is no different.

FF nair -> dtilt (low%), up-gordo to cover options -> grab -> dthrow -> 50/50

DGordos are incredible. They cover space fast yet hang beautifully at the end, something neither the Up or Normal Gordo throws do. Ignore this option and you're missing out on a big part of the Gordo game.

You can B-reverse Side specials - watch this.

I'm not sure what that ending string is supposed to be - maybe a sequence that worked on a few FG scrubs? But it's definitely not highlighting D3's safe offensive options.

To answer @Lord Horatio: one of D3's biggest weaknesses is that he just doesn't have the safe offensive options other characters do. Shiek/Pika/Sonic can use almost everything in their moveset as a safe approach - D3 has to very carefully pick options depending on matchup and spacing.

Relatively Safe:

• SH Bair - safe against most, still punishable by smart+fast opponent (Falcon, Sonic). Great on shield vs Luigi.
• Ftilt - unsafe on shield vs most, punishable on whiff by fast opponents
• Dtilt - always unsafe on shield, but very hard to punish on whiff. Has a visible disjointed hitbox right after starting, can clank with projectiles (don't rely on it though).
• Fullhop Fair - good anti-air, you'll have time to jump/Nair/dodge before landing
• FF Nair - unsafe on shield, use as a mixup between grab/Inhale

Notably Unsafe:

• Jab is unsafe, both on block and whiffed. You can mitigate this by mixing up the timing, but a smart opponent will just wait you out. It IS hard to punish yes, but good players will get you for this.
• Inhale - less so when B-reversed)
• Gordo - you are unsafe for approximately 59 frames (startup 29 frames + 30 frames when Gordo can still be smacked into your face forcing a defensive option). This is why Gordo is a fantastic move to secure momentum - but not to obtain it - and really why the move doesn't help D3 that much. A 5-frame Gordo throw + higher reflect floor could really make things interesting for D3's matchups in neutral but OH WELL
• SH Fair - lol
  
• Jet Hammer - lol
• ...so yeah, everything else

 

[imsoul]

I'm not sure what that ending string is supposed to be - maybe a sequence that worked on a few FG scrubs? But it's definitely not highlighting D3's safe offensive options.

I've used it in tourney before lol. you can hit many-a d-throw -> fair/uair

 

[Soul Train]

I've used it in tourney before lol. you can hit many-a d-throw -> fair/uair

Yes, I hope so. Dthrow -> Fair/Uair is a followup. But followups and strings are not the same thing as safe offensive options in neutral, which is what was requested.

 

[S_B]

What happened previously when D3 takes a player off the bottom of the stage inside him?

I just tested it and even at 300%, ensuring no popouts, D3 died first. Has this always been the case?

 

[Soul Train]

What happened previously when D3 takes a player off the bottom of the stage inside him?

I just tested it and even at 300%, ensuring no popouts, D3 died first. Has this always been the case?

Yes, D3 always dies first. The popout doesn't matter - D3's feet hit the blast zone before the opponent does - they're up in his belly, and feet are obviously below...belly.

Just don't wait as long and spit them out in time for you to make it back to the ledge. 90% of the cast will die.

 

[S_B]

Yes, D3 always dies first. The popout doesn't matter - D3's feet hit the blast zone before the opponent does - they're up in his belly, and feet are obviously below...belly.

Just don't wait as long and spit them out in time for you to make it back to the ledge. 90% of the cast will die.

Oh, understood. Just trying to get a better idea of how SSB4 handles suicides and whatnot.

So we're 100% sure this was always like this and didn't change recently?

I ask because I know I've seen matches where Kirby's leaping inhale kills him AND his victim off the side of the screen simultaneously...

 

[Cook]

What's the best way to escape combos? I usually hold diagonally away and try to jump and air dodge. Is that dumb? Also, if you mash jump as opposed to trying to time it do you get penalized like you do for trying to tech to early?

 

[TMJ_Jack]

What's the best way to escape combos? I usually hold diagonally away and try to jump and air dodge. Is that dumb? Also, if you mash jump as opposed to trying to time it do you get penalized like you do for trying to tech to early?

It sucks, but escaping seems to be situation dependent. With ZZS's lame down throw, into up special combo, I DI down and in the same horizontal direction as the special will travel. With Fox, I DI down to avoid the fair and away to avoid the upair. With Sheik, I usually only need to DI down.

 

[imsoul]

It sucks, but escaping seems to be situation dependent. With ZZS's lame down throw, into up special combo, I DI down and in the same horizontal direction as the special will travel. With Fox, I DI down to avoid the fair and away to avoid the upair. With Sheik, I usually only need to DI down.

Here's a video on DI'ing ZSS up-b https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylVAJur_wVs

 

[KingJames]

I am so ****ing salty keep losing to the same ike player at my locals, anyone a expert in this mu.

 

[TMJ_Jack]

I am so ****ing salty keep losing to the same ike player at my locals, anyone a expert in this mu.

Same punish game as always, but now you've got someone else playing too. Ike is a lot like us: he's going to have a nasty punish game. Whiffing a laggy attack could cost you a stock. He has more room to be aggressive but not so much that he can just hound you like a Sonic or Sheik. You're going to have to do a lot of baiting to defeat a decent Ike.

Key points:
-patience is detrimental, try grabbing on poorly-spaced fairs, never approach with laggy moves
-use quickish attacks: ftilt, utilt, and grab are all going to be very useful
-limit your appoach with late nair, great move but Ike can adapt to it, use it as a consistent mix-up
-because gimping Ike is often fruitless, use your alone time on stage to crouch taunt
-if you're feeling ballsy, charge the Jet Hammer and bait out the counter, works once per opponent
-prepare yourself

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

-because gimping Ike is often fruitless, use your alone time on stage to crouch taunt

I've never really played an exemplary Friendman before so I'm only asking out of my own possible misconception; why is it not worth trying to gimp Ike? I mean, obviously not when he's recovering low, but what about horizontally? His sideb doesn't seem like that much of a threat...

Please elaboraaaate!

 

[Soul Train]

I am so ****ing salty keep losing to the same ike player at my locals, anyone a expert in this mu.

is my old main from Brawl and PM; after the patch I really enjoy him as a secondary. He's much better and more threatening now - but it's definititely still in D3's favor. A fun match for sure though, no one has stupid safe moves, the better player will win.

Spacing is really the key in this matchup. Ftilt is huge here; Ike has no solid answer to it. Ikes love to SHFF Nair/Fair, and it's safe when spaced right. Beat this by slightly walking forward + shield. Really, all D3s should walk more, it's a fantastic option for D3. In general, the better spacer should win; your Fair is beaten, but at certain angles your Bair will beat Ike's Fair (slightly above or below).

Edgeguarding: Ike has 2 options - recover high with Quick Draw, recover low with Aether. Quick Draw is predictable (you hear him charging it way in advance), is beaten by almost everything (Uair works great if you float just under him), and makes for some fun Gordo tricks (jump up with Ike as he starts charging, drop a falling UGordo to track right with him, punish if he bites). And unless Ike spaces it perfectly waaay below the ledge, Aether is actually very punishable - just few know how to do it. The sword is invincible, but as Ike jumps up to catch it he is vulnerable. Try floating AWAY from the stage, and the second Ike throws his sword up, Bair. It'll hit him as he jumps up and stagespike (assuming no tech). Or just use the usual UGordo trap stuff onstage. You have so many options here.

You can kill just as well, combo almost as well, outrange in specific places, and pressure better in neutral. Ftilt is a huge tool in the spacing game here, learn it. Pressure with smart Gordo mixups (Standing DGordo, jump FGordo, etc), make him scared to reflect them. Be wary, don't get predictable or Ike will wreck you. Shield a lot. Space and don't get grabbed. ...yep.

 

[KingJames]

You guys should check this video,I think d3 does alright in dubs when he not getting juggled. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imj4e68Jv50

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

You guys should check this video,I think d3 does alright in dubs when he not getting juggled. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imj4e68Jv50

Dedede is super good in doubles. Especially when partnered with a small projectile user like Ness or Diddy.

 

[TMJ_Jack]

Please elaboraaaate!

That was mostly a joke, but there's some truth to it. In my experience, trying to hit Ike offstage is a waste of time. Ike is hard to gimp in an oddly similar way to why His Majesty is hard to gimp. The side special is too quick to block consistently, and the up special is guarded with super armor and a hitbox. Obviously you should try something to gimp, but it should be no surprise when nothing really happens.
HOWEVER, there is one hilarious option to gimp Ike. Let's say you hit Ike far off stage. He can recover if and only if he uses the side special fully charged. With some good timing, you could use a fair and smack him, OR you could tank the hit so that he can't make the full distance back to the stage. I love doing this. This can also work on Luigi and Pikachu. It can be done to Ganon too, but be sure to have a stock advantage too.

 

[CO18]

Where can I find d3's frame data

 

[Soul Train]

Where can I find d3's frame data

Here's the most readable version I know:
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/34cs6c/a_gift_for_you_smashbros_frame_data_for_smash_4/

 

[SalsaSavant]

I'm having trouble with D3's dair, specifically, trying to find the sourspot. I need to sourspot for a combo I'm trying to learn, but I can't seem to figure out the timing or how to hit. Any tips on hitting consistant sourspots?

 

[KingJames]

Does d3 have any footstoll set ups or any advance combos?

 

[Eggggggggggbert]

Does d3 have any footstoll set ups or any advance combos?

I remember seeing some cool footstool tech in a thread and I'll see if I can pull it up.
For the most part he hits too hard to combo in the sense other characters get combos. There are small combos you can do, but that's more just specific moves leading into others well.

Edit:
I found it!
http://smashboards.com/threads/downthrow-to-footstool.381867/
Just some cool footstool stuff I remember being worked on.

 

[SalsaSavant]

Does d3 have any footstoll set ups or any advance combos?

That's what I'm trying to do.

Dthrow-Footstool-Sourspotted Dair. It forces them to get up on the spot, allowing you to get another grab.

 

[KingJames]

That's what I'm trying to do.

Dthrow-Footstool-Sourspotted Dair. It forces them to get up on the spot, allowing you to get another grab.

Is it guarantee on the whole cast at low percents, I was constantly able to do it on heavies.I am guessing 0 to 10 is the grabbing Window.

 

[Soul Train]

I'm having trouble with D3's dair, specifically, trying to find the sourspot. I need to sourspot for a combo I'm trying to learn, but I can't seem to figure out the timing or how to hit. Any tips on hitting consistant sourspots?

Took a look at frame data and did some slo-mo testing to confirm with Dair. Frame data:

Takeaways:

• Getting the weak hit (8%) isn't about timing - it starts on frame 22 just like the strong hit. Instead it's about hitbox location. From my testing, it's just on the edge of the hammer. Hitting them with the main body of the hammer will do the 15%, hitting just with the edges will do 8%. I've landed it on all three main sides of the hammer swing - in front, behind, and below. Don't know about...above.
• Fun fact: Dair can't spike an opponent on the ground. Didn't know that myself.
• ...geez we need a buff. It's depressing that every closer look I take on the king just makes me sadder/saltier.

 

[SalsaSavant]

Took a look at frame data and did some slo-mo testing to confirm with Dair. Frame data:

Takeaways:

• Getting the weak hit (8%) isn't about timing - it starts on frame 22 just like the strong hit. Instead it's about hitbox location. From my testing, it's just on the edge of the hammer. Hitting them with the main body of the hammer will do the 15%, hitting just with the edges will do 8%. I've landed it on all three main sides of the hammer swing - in front, behind, and below. Don't know about...above.
• Fun fact: Dair can't spike an opponent on the ground. Didn't know that myself.
• ...geez we need a buff. It's depressing that every closer look I take on the king just makes me sadder/saltier.

Thanks.
Really weird that we have a sourspot spot ABOVE. Don't know when that will come into play ever. But still good to know.
Preciate it.

 

[KingJames]

Any d3 mains going to big house 5?

 

[Cook]

I know Sheik vs Dedede is currently listed as 55:45? Do you guys still agree with that? Personally I think it is still that or maybe 60:40, but if I tell anyone outside of here that they tell me I'm an idiot.

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

I know Sheik vs Dedede is currently listed as 55:45? Do you guys still agree with that? Personally I think it is still that or maybe 60:40, but if I tell anyone outside of here that they tell me I'm an idiot.

Do they call you an idiot because it's more even or because they think Sheik destroys Dedede?

Anyway, I think it's debatable, but probably 60:40. It's not as bad as as some other characters have it since we can generally outrange her. The main thing is just if we get caught in a combo, we're gonna take some hurt. But it feels like a very learnable MU. When you know what to do and what not to do, it's muuuuch easier.

 

[Cook]

Do they call you an idiot because it's more even or because they think Sheik destroys Dedede?

Anyway, I think it's debatable, but probably 60:40. It's not as bad as as some other characters have it since we can generally outrange her. The main thing is just if we get caught in a combo, we're gonna take some hurt. But it feels like a very learnable MU. When you know what to do and what not to do, it's muuuuch easier.

Because they think Sheik destroys Dedede.

 

[Soul Train]

Because they think Sheik destroys Dedede.

She doesn't. Sonic, ZSS, yes. Sure Sheik is so safe and fast it very well might be 60:40 - but 55:45 isn't entirely unrealistic either. In short, Sheik will get D3 to 80+ damage really fast, but then have a way harder time getting the kill (if the D3 knows what to watch for). D3 usually ends up sitting in rage for most of the match, and isn't easy to gimp for such a big character. Then Sheik can't needle camp as Gordo eats needles. She has to approach. Definitely not in D3's favor with the ridiculous frame data monster that is Sheik, but D3 is easily the best heavy against Sheik.

I went against Angel Cortez's Sheik in tourney a bit ago, lost convincingly, but each match was down to the last stock, and we were both at kill %s. Definitely didn't feel anything near the impossibility of sanic.

 

[SalsaSavant]

D3's crazy survivability + Sheik's lack of kill power + Gordo eating needles=D3's best high tier matchup, actually. Not a counter, or even a check, but still a viable matchip.

 

[Silly Symphony]

This is a move that I can only pull off with D3 every month or so, and I'm still clueless how it happens. Basically it's a single jab forward and a brief spinning infinite backwards. These usually happen in hectic situations. Does anyone else know what this is, how to pull it off or even avoid it?

 

[Soul Train]

This is a move that I can only pull off with D3 every month or so, and I'm still clueless how it happens. Basically it's a single jab forward and a brief spinning infinite backwards. These usually happen in hectic situations. Does anyone else know what this is, how to pull it off or even avoid it?

"A brief spinning infinite backwards" - you'll have to be more specific. Are you talking about his third jab, where he spins his hammer?

 

[Silly Symphony]

"A brief spinning infinite backwards" - you'll have to be more specific. Are you talking about his third jab, where he spins his hammer?

I found a footage sample (and I think the answer to my question as well) It happens in this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWm735YOdzI at about 4:13 just after D3 gets up from the banana.

Yeh, I just went to test this out, and it is indeed D3's getup attack from a banana slip, I never noticed this before.

 

[Soul Train]

I found a footage sample (and I think the answer to my question as well) It happens in this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWm735YOdzI at about 4:13 just after D3 gets up from the banana.

Yeh, I just went to test this out, and it is indeed D3's getup attack from a banana slip, I never noticed this before.

...oh, that. lol cool.

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

I found a footage sample (and I think the answer to my question as well) It happens in this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWm735YOdzI at about 4:13 just after D3 gets up from the banana.

Yeh, I just went to test this out, and it is indeed D3's getup attack from a banana slip, I never noticed this before.

Oh dang, I was hoping for insane new tech. lol welp

 

[WispBae]

Hey all. Doggy main here.

Been toying around with D3 as a secondary to Doggy, and he's a lot of fun. I has a few questions, if you don't mind...

• What are his BnB's I should know about?
• How safe is gordo, and how should I be using them?
• What are some of his better KO options and safer ways to cover options?

Sorry for the newby questions, thanks!

 

[Soul Train]

Hey all. Doggy main here.

Been toying around with D3 as a secondary to Doggy, and he's a lot of fun. I has a few questions, if you don't mind...

• What are his BnB's I should know about?
• How safe is gordo, and how should I be using them?
• What are some of his better KO options and safer ways to cover options?

Sorry for the newby questions, thanks!

First, welcome to the boards! Second, we've all been working on those exact questions for almost a year now, so instead of writing you a book, I'll just point you to my videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnqJZdIjGsk. There's an in-depth breakdown video for each of your questions, watch them and post again if you have more questions. I think you'll find Part 5 (Gordo) the most helpful.

 

[atomicblast360]

So recently I've been really struggling against ZSS as D3, a lot of the time I'll die off one grab at 30 from a string, and overall it's just very difficult for me to win and while it may not be, seems undoable. I've also been using Diddy for it and doing pretty well, but still I would like to learn more about the MU with D3, so any advice for the MU?

 

[Soul Train]

So recently I've been really struggling against ZSS as D3, a lot of the time I'll die off one grab at 30 from a string, and overall it's just very difficult for me to win and while it may not be, seems undoable. I've also been using Diddy for it and doing pretty well, but still I would like to learn more about the MU with D3, so any advice for the MU?

How to play ZSS as D3:
1. Read this part of the matchup thread, become depressed.
2. Play a different character for the matchup.

For reals. It's one of the worst matchups in the game. Part of the reason I started learning Pika was just for this matchup (and Sonic). ZSS can punish everything you do, kill you at ridiculously low %s, all while staying completely safe. yeps.