Dragmire
Smash Lord
give him some time he needs to multi edit and put it in all at once
-
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"How do I beat ___?", the Ganondorf Match-Up Thread
- Thread starter :034:
- Start date
:034:
Smash Hero
Sorry mate. I'll add it right now.
EDIT: Added it and changed the Sonic section. I'm planning on completly rewriting everything after my finals finish, so keep the data coming.
Dragmire
Smash Lord
on Page 5 there are also 2 mario guides it would be nice seeing as how the evil king has a hatred for the red hatted man
:034:
Smash Hero
Added those and gave a little bit more.
RobertZombie
Smash Cadet
how about falco???
im always forced to use Toon Link just to fight them
im always forced to use Toon Link just to fight them
:034:
Smash Hero
^ That's actually a good idea.
Anyway, I updated a bunch. I rewrote a lot of stuff to make it more up-to-date and gave extra info on other characters. Don't forget that any type of input is highly appreciated.
Anyway, I updated a bunch. I rewrote a lot of stuff to make it more up-to-date and gave extra info on other characters. Don't forget that any type of input is highly appreciated.
Phazon Warrior
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jul 12, 2003
- Messages
- 42
Falco is incredibly hard, partly because the chain grab is incredibly easy to do on Ganondorf. What I know is that the chain grab is ineffective around 50%. If you can avoid being grabbed at low percents, you avoid giving Falco an easy KO. Also, if you do get chain grabbed followed by an aerial down A to spike you, I'd just take the hit. Ganondorf does have a chance to recover from that by jumping right after Falco's down air hits and recovering with Up B. You might even catch Falco with the Up B.
If you can deal with the chain grabbing, Falco still has lots of ways to make it more difficult. To my knowledge, you can not immediately hit Falco with anything after a Flame Choke. Here, you have to predict rolls or get up attacks, a very tricky task.
In the long range, you can no longer hit Falco's (and Fox's) Forward B with a Jab. Also the short hop laser controls space of the stage, forcing you to get up close and potentially get chain grabbed.
Overall, Falco is a very hard matchup. There are a couple of things to take advantage of. First, Falco's Up B shouts out "hit me" during its start up. Also, Falco's light weight makes him easier to KO at a relatively lower percent.
I hope this helps.
If you can deal with the chain grabbing, Falco still has lots of ways to make it more difficult. To my knowledge, you can not immediately hit Falco with anything after a Flame Choke. Here, you have to predict rolls or get up attacks, a very tricky task.
In the long range, you can no longer hit Falco's (and Fox's) Forward B with a Jab. Also the short hop laser controls space of the stage, forcing you to get up close and potentially get chain grabbed.
Overall, Falco is a very hard matchup. There are a couple of things to take advantage of. First, Falco's Up B shouts out "hit me" during its start up. Also, Falco's light weight makes him easier to KO at a relatively lower percent.
I hope this helps.
Dragmire
Smash Lord
just had an annoying time with a falco heres what I picked up
I find ganons matchup as all know to be awful with falco but a few things to keep in mind when fighting them are.
What To Do:
THUNDERSTORM: falco (like in melee) is suceptable to gimps by many barrages to feet in the face. mixing it up gives for some scary mindgames. jabs after Dairs help too. also
FLAMECHOKEZ: although falco can avoid all means of after attack in the after position including Dtilt, Ftilt, and jab he can be Tstormed SS elbowed and continually Flame choked.
SHEILD/DODGE: falcos combo ability is something to be afraid of because most if not all his aerials were built for combos. so try to figure when they will do them and shield them int shield grabs or Spot dodge and counter attack
What Not To Do:
Get hit: seems obvious but as mentioned above he can combo so do whatever possible to get out of harms way. DO A BARREL ROLL
aerial game: first of all ganons ground game is where he's best and falco has few good ground moves. but aerially ganon kinda sucks and falco ***** children
other than that avoid all lazahs and just keep fighting on
just a side note falcos side B recovery can be stopped by down B
I find ganons matchup as all know to be awful with falco but a few things to keep in mind when fighting them are.
What To Do:
THUNDERSTORM: falco (like in melee) is suceptable to gimps by many barrages to feet in the face. mixing it up gives for some scary mindgames. jabs after Dairs help too. also
FLAMECHOKEZ: although falco can avoid all means of after attack in the after position including Dtilt, Ftilt, and jab he can be Tstormed SS elbowed and continually Flame choked.
SHEILD/DODGE: falcos combo ability is something to be afraid of because most if not all his aerials were built for combos. so try to figure when they will do them and shield them int shield grabs or Spot dodge and counter attack
What Not To Do:
Get hit: seems obvious but as mentioned above he can combo so do whatever possible to get out of harms way. DO A BARREL ROLL
aerial game: first of all ganons ground game is where he's best and falco has few good ground moves. but aerially ganon kinda sucks and falco ***** children
other than that avoid all lazahs and just keep fighting on
just a side note falcos side B recovery can be stopped by down B
Fafnir
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2007
- Messages
- 158
I posted this in another thread thread, but I'm sure it would still apply here. It's only based on my experiance playing as Snake(and a little bit of toying around with Ganondorf) though, so it may not be the best information in the world, but it's certainly something to start with.
I'm not too good with Ganondorf, mainly just play him as a fun side character, and to match up against friends who aren't too good, but I do main Snake, and although I'm not very good at alll, I'd imagine I can help a bit.
Don't bother catching his grenades. A good Snake will immediatly make you drop them right away(and put you in a painful situation if you're not careful).
If he starts planting a mine, and you're on the stage(to be honest, any not-braindead Snake player should never put himself in this situation), >B him just as he finishes planting the mine. You'll take damage, but he will too. Only do this if you have the advantage, which I doubt you will if he gets this cocky.
When he's recovering with the cypher, and you're on the ledge, just grab him. The cypher will hit you, he'll fall, and he won't be able to recover without C4ing himself(which by then, should be too late, if you're lucky). Trying to jump out and spike him won't work too well, because the cypher covers above him(it also does damage and has a fixed knockback), so you'll either have to grab him, or intercept him from below or infront. And be careful, he can get out of it at any time and still attack you.
Although Snake's got some very, very powerful aerials, he's actually not too good when he's in the air. Use this to your advantage, if you get him in the air, keep him there. Usually, he'll try to counter by dropping a C4. I also sometimes will Al-Queda with a grenade to throw my enemy off, so watch his movements constantly.
If he manages to stick you with a C4, be ready. You can do either one of three things: Touch him to stick it back to him, keep yourself in shield or invincibility frames as much as possible, or run up to him as he's about to explode it. The first option rarely actually works in your favour, since Ganondorf is alot slower then Snake, and Snake can blow it up whenever he wants. You'd have to evade him for the entire time limit of the C4(which is very long). For the second option, you pretty much have to get lucky. You do have a moment before he activates it, but he'll probably take advantage of Ganon's massive lag and activate it then. The third option is easily the most amusing, and probably the most realistic if you've got the balls to pull it off. The main idea is to keep in Snake's face as much as possible. This way, if he does blow it up, it'll hit him too. If you get stuck, you'd best spend most of your time near him. Just make sure you don't screw it up. If he hits you, and then blows the C4, it could lead to a very easy cieling KO.
Against his Nikita missile, don't try to attack it. The missile cannot be destroyed, it will only be redirected, and he can easily turn it right back at you. Your best option is just to use your shield and take it like a man. Also be careful of dropped missiles. Since he can stop the missile's motion and drop it at any time, he can use it to drop in front of someone who thinks they successfully shielded a Nikita, when all along it was dropping right in front of their faces.
Approaching will be a pain in the ***. With the capability to get 5 projectiles on screen at once, you'll have to see alot of things coming. Unfortunatly, Snake is no slouch in the close range department either. His crazy range and power will make short work of you if you're not careful. You'll have no choice but to get close as well. Your best option would be to just keep the pressure on him. Let up just a little bit, and you'll find yourself having to approach through a flurry of projectiles all over again. It may be tough, but you have no other option.
Recovering against Snake will be hard. The Nikita is an obvious edgeguard, but that doesn't make it any easier to dodge. If you actually manage to get into range of the stage, he can spam ^smash to make it a pain in the *** to sweetspot the ledge. His Bair is also one hell of an attack for almost any purpose, but it really hurts when trying to recover against it. Lastly, his Fair is slow as hell, but if you don't see it coming, it will hurt. Alot. All in all, you're going to have a very tough recovery against Snake. Especially with Ganon's poor recovery in general. You'll just have to predict what he'll use, and outsmart him. But the worst is yet to come: He'll probably have mines set up just to make sure don't get up in one piece. You'll have to memorize the location of his mines(including not only where, but what kind), and analyze the situation. It's not pretty when he has mines set up to stop you from rolling, and a Nikita coming to your face when you jump, but you've got to think of a way.
Snake's basic stratagy is essentially to get you playing by his rules. And once he has you doing that, he's pretty much won. You've got to keep the pressure on him if you want to even stand a chance.
I'm not too good with Ganondorf, mainly just play him as a fun side character, and to match up against friends who aren't too good, but I do main Snake, and although I'm not very good at alll, I'd imagine I can help a bit.
Don't bother catching his grenades. A good Snake will immediatly make you drop them right away(and put you in a painful situation if you're not careful).
If he starts planting a mine, and you're on the stage(to be honest, any not-braindead Snake player should never put himself in this situation), >B him just as he finishes planting the mine. You'll take damage, but he will too. Only do this if you have the advantage, which I doubt you will if he gets this cocky.
When he's recovering with the cypher, and you're on the ledge, just grab him. The cypher will hit you, he'll fall, and he won't be able to recover without C4ing himself(which by then, should be too late, if you're lucky). Trying to jump out and spike him won't work too well, because the cypher covers above him(it also does damage and has a fixed knockback), so you'll either have to grab him, or intercept him from below or infront. And be careful, he can get out of it at any time and still attack you.
Although Snake's got some very, very powerful aerials, he's actually not too good when he's in the air. Use this to your advantage, if you get him in the air, keep him there. Usually, he'll try to counter by dropping a C4. I also sometimes will Al-Queda with a grenade to throw my enemy off, so watch his movements constantly.
If he manages to stick you with a C4, be ready. You can do either one of three things: Touch him to stick it back to him, keep yourself in shield or invincibility frames as much as possible, or run up to him as he's about to explode it. The first option rarely actually works in your favour, since Ganondorf is alot slower then Snake, and Snake can blow it up whenever he wants. You'd have to evade him for the entire time limit of the C4(which is very long). For the second option, you pretty much have to get lucky. You do have a moment before he activates it, but he'll probably take advantage of Ganon's massive lag and activate it then. The third option is easily the most amusing, and probably the most realistic if you've got the balls to pull it off. The main idea is to keep in Snake's face as much as possible. This way, if he does blow it up, it'll hit him too. If you get stuck, you'd best spend most of your time near him. Just make sure you don't screw it up. If he hits you, and then blows the C4, it could lead to a very easy cieling KO.
Against his Nikita missile, don't try to attack it. The missile cannot be destroyed, it will only be redirected, and he can easily turn it right back at you. Your best option is just to use your shield and take it like a man. Also be careful of dropped missiles. Since he can stop the missile's motion and drop it at any time, he can use it to drop in front of someone who thinks they successfully shielded a Nikita, when all along it was dropping right in front of their faces.
Approaching will be a pain in the ***. With the capability to get 5 projectiles on screen at once, you'll have to see alot of things coming. Unfortunatly, Snake is no slouch in the close range department either. His crazy range and power will make short work of you if you're not careful. You'll have no choice but to get close as well. Your best option would be to just keep the pressure on him. Let up just a little bit, and you'll find yourself having to approach through a flurry of projectiles all over again. It may be tough, but you have no other option.
Recovering against Snake will be hard. The Nikita is an obvious edgeguard, but that doesn't make it any easier to dodge. If you actually manage to get into range of the stage, he can spam ^smash to make it a pain in the *** to sweetspot the ledge. His Bair is also one hell of an attack for almost any purpose, but it really hurts when trying to recover against it. Lastly, his Fair is slow as hell, but if you don't see it coming, it will hurt. Alot. All in all, you're going to have a very tough recovery against Snake. Especially with Ganon's poor recovery in general. You'll just have to predict what he'll use, and outsmart him. But the worst is yet to come: He'll probably have mines set up just to make sure don't get up in one piece. You'll have to memorize the location of his mines(including not only where, but what kind), and analyze the situation. It's not pretty when he has mines set up to stop you from rolling, and a Nikita coming to your face when you jump, but you've got to think of a way.
Snake's basic stratagy is essentially to get you playing by his rules. And once he has you doing that, he's pretty much won. You've got to keep the pressure on him if you want to even stand a chance.
Cooper736
Smash Journeyman
I've had a few matches against Pit recently, and here are some things I picked up:
Pit combines the two things Ganon hates the most: a spammable projectile and a disjointed hitbox. As such, you are neither safe up close or at a distance. From far away Pit can safely attack with arrows and steer them if you try to run, and up close you are sword bait. So the best place to stand is out of sword range, but close enough that arrows become impractical. If he's standing at the edge of Battlefield, you should most likely be standing in the middle. This will force him to come to you, which is exactly what you want.
The two attacks you should use the most are your dash and Flame Choke. Your dash is fast, and if Pit is running at you, he won't be able to outprioritize it (in my experience). The Flame Choke can't grab through Pit's attacks once they get going, but if you're in the animation when Pit starts an Angel Ring, you'll cut right through it. A Dtilt should follow, which knocks him up. Feel free to tech chase and hit with a nice Uair, which will outprioritize his Dair.
The thing you need to avoid the most is being caught in an arrow spam. Like I said, and medium distances it becomes impractical, and many Pits would rather run in to rack up "easy" damage with their swords. If you do get caught, try and smash DI up to escape,and jump over as far as you can. Air dodge to the ground, because Uair will outprioritize your Wizard's Foot.
Good Stages:
-Lylat Cruise: Good luck to a Pit that tries to shoot you from below
-Battlefield: Again, platforms. Also allows from Thunder Chins.
-New Yoshi's Island: More of a guess really, but the platform should keep you safe from arrows. It's also small enough that Pit can't run too far.
-Delfino Plaza: Meh, it's pretty good.
Bad Stages:
-Anything flat, long, and platform-less. This includes Final Destination, Smashville, and Bridge of Eldin.
Do:
-Murder Choke
-Dash attack his stupid face in
-Stay a reasonable distance away, but keep him pressured into not using arrows
Do Not:
-Run
-Try fighting too far off the edge
-Wizard's Foot into a Uair, thinking you can beat it, because you can't
I hope this helps.
Pit combines the two things Ganon hates the most: a spammable projectile and a disjointed hitbox. As such, you are neither safe up close or at a distance. From far away Pit can safely attack with arrows and steer them if you try to run, and up close you are sword bait. So the best place to stand is out of sword range, but close enough that arrows become impractical. If he's standing at the edge of Battlefield, you should most likely be standing in the middle. This will force him to come to you, which is exactly what you want.
The two attacks you should use the most are your dash and Flame Choke. Your dash is fast, and if Pit is running at you, he won't be able to outprioritize it (in my experience). The Flame Choke can't grab through Pit's attacks once they get going, but if you're in the animation when Pit starts an Angel Ring, you'll cut right through it. A Dtilt should follow, which knocks him up. Feel free to tech chase and hit with a nice Uair, which will outprioritize his Dair.
The thing you need to avoid the most is being caught in an arrow spam. Like I said, and medium distances it becomes impractical, and many Pits would rather run in to rack up "easy" damage with their swords. If you do get caught, try and smash DI up to escape,and jump over as far as you can. Air dodge to the ground, because Uair will outprioritize your Wizard's Foot.
Good Stages:
-Lylat Cruise: Good luck to a Pit that tries to shoot you from below
-Battlefield: Again, platforms. Also allows from Thunder Chins.
-New Yoshi's Island: More of a guess really, but the platform should keep you safe from arrows. It's also small enough that Pit can't run too far.
-Delfino Plaza: Meh, it's pretty good.
Bad Stages:
-Anything flat, long, and platform-less. This includes Final Destination, Smashville, and Bridge of Eldin.
Do:
-Murder Choke
-Dash attack his stupid face in
-Stay a reasonable distance away, but keep him pressured into not using arrows
Do Not:
-Run
-Try fighting too far off the edge
-Wizard's Foot into a Uair, thinking you can beat it, because you can't
I hope this helps.
RobertZombie
Smash Cadet
Thanks for the falco info, still think hes a bad matchup for my Ganon no matter what i do
also
I remember Ganon can spike snake's recovery I fight them all the time on locals
you just have to use dair at the right time (make his foot hit snake's face)
also
I remember Ganon can spike snake's recovery I fight them all the time on locals
you just have to use dair at the right time (make his foot hit snake's face)
Empy
Smash Ace
The approach you mentioned, utilt out of "missed" (sword not swung) QD, is called "The Grand Viper". I haven't been using it against you as most people find it really annoying and I think Ike can beat Ganon without.
Also, Ike his recovery with Aether is plenty. He isn't as easily gimped as most people think, I'm sure you've noticed.
Well we did have some decent matches tonight. Again, even without the grand viper Ike is still at advantage against Ganon, imo.
And I gave you plenty of sympathy (suiciding when you did and all).
:034:
Smash Hero
^ Chyeah, Ike is better against Ganny than I thought. Great balancing there Sakurai.
"Let's make Ike faster and give him more range than Ganondorf."
"So we should make Ganondorf stronger, right?"
"What? No. Of course not. ****ing ***."
I did notice one thing though - if you use Ike's fair to approach and you shield it, there's a split second lag for Ike, enough to put in a jab. Nair sucks and is lagless for some reason and stops rolling and the grand viper.. Yeah, you didn't do that much at all.
"Let's make Ike faster and give him more range than Ganondorf."
"So we should make Ganondorf stronger, right?"
"What? No. Of course not. ****ing ***."
I did notice one thing though - if you use Ike's fair to approach and you shield it, there's a split second lag for Ike, enough to put in a jab. Nair sucks and is lagless for some reason and stops rolling and the grand viper.. Yeah, you didn't do that much at all.
:034:
Smash Hero
^ Because it's not super good and I already have a sticky.
Jumpinjahosafa
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2007
- Messages
- 883
Great stuff man Great stuff
Jekyll
Smash Ace
I honestly don't think the matchup against Ike is so bad. It's one that takes a bit of practice and knowledge, though. You shouldn't have too much trouble landing a DA or Murder Choke on him if you know when to go for it, and if you react fast enough, his recovery is actually punishable.
A horizontal Murder Kick hits Ike out of Quick Draw while he's recovering(if he's coming around stage level.
If Ike doesn't perfectly sweetspot his up+B, several attacks practically destroy him
F-Tilt sends him at such an ungodly angle that at decent percentages he WILL die
A horizontal Murder Kick hits Ike out of Quick Draw while he's recovering(if he's coming around stage level.
If Ike doesn't perfectly sweetspot his up+B, several attacks practically destroy him
F-Tilt sends him at such an ungodly angle that at decent percentages he WILL die
*is expanding the thing he wrote on Lucas*
Lucas, all in all, is not one of the worst matchups for Ganondorf, but he can still be pretty tricky. Honestly though I believe GDorf outmatches him.
First of all, do not get into any rolling games with him. Chances are you are going to mess up and he is going to kill you with that ****ed FSmash of his. It comes out very quickly, has decent range, and it hurts. Alot. However, if you powershield it, it leaves you open to get a murder choke on him, which leads to popping him up, which means he is yours.
Lucas has a good air game, but you have better range. The only thing to be careful of here is his bair, which can actually spike you. It is very hard to hit with, but I have had a WTF moment or two when my friend's Lucas pulled it off on me. Stick with Uairs and Nairs.
As for his ground game, the fact that he is so short really hurts him. He has no good defensive options (aside from PK Thunder at mid ranges, which can easily be dodged) to deter you from approaching. However, do not use Flame Choke or Wizard's Foot as a form of approach. He will hit you with a PK Fire to the face. However, you can usually powershield a PK Fire, or roll past it, or if you are really close, short hop over it and Thunderstorm him.
A small note on approaching him: Beware of the upsmash, it has the longest duration in the game out of smash attacks, and it hurts...alot. Unless you know how long is stays out, do not try and punish, as often you will get hit by the last few frames and could be KO'd.
His recovery is actually quite easily gimped. Quite a few times instead of attacking him, I hit the PK Thunder (I do not know which moves cancel it out exactly) with an aerial and it clash with the PK Thunder, and sent Lucas to hit doom.
BTW, his grab is very punishable.
Do's:
+Punish his laggy attacks. He has quite a few
+Play agressively. Why would the Lord of Darkness be afraid of a prepubescent kid?
+Gimp his recovery. You can easily kill a Lucas at 40% since he has one of the more easily punished recoveries.
Don't:
-Play to his tune. Don't let him sit there and play how he wants. Pressure him.
-Get above him. That up smash hurts.
Stages:
My personal two favorites against him: Jungle Japes and Final D.
Lucas, all in all, is not one of the worst matchups for Ganondorf, but he can still be pretty tricky. Honestly though I believe GDorf outmatches him.
First of all, do not get into any rolling games with him. Chances are you are going to mess up and he is going to kill you with that ****ed FSmash of his. It comes out very quickly, has decent range, and it hurts. Alot. However, if you powershield it, it leaves you open to get a murder choke on him, which leads to popping him up, which means he is yours.
Lucas has a good air game, but you have better range. The only thing to be careful of here is his bair, which can actually spike you. It is very hard to hit with, but I have had a WTF moment or two when my friend's Lucas pulled it off on me. Stick with Uairs and Nairs.
As for his ground game, the fact that he is so short really hurts him. He has no good defensive options (aside from PK Thunder at mid ranges, which can easily be dodged) to deter you from approaching. However, do not use Flame Choke or Wizard's Foot as a form of approach. He will hit you with a PK Fire to the face. However, you can usually powershield a PK Fire, or roll past it, or if you are really close, short hop over it and Thunderstorm him.
A small note on approaching him: Beware of the upsmash, it has the longest duration in the game out of smash attacks, and it hurts...alot. Unless you know how long is stays out, do not try and punish, as often you will get hit by the last few frames and could be KO'd.
His recovery is actually quite easily gimped. Quite a few times instead of attacking him, I hit the PK Thunder (I do not know which moves cancel it out exactly) with an aerial and it clash with the PK Thunder, and sent Lucas to hit doom.
BTW, his grab is very punishable.
Do's:
+Punish his laggy attacks. He has quite a few
+Play agressively. Why would the Lord of Darkness be afraid of a prepubescent kid?
+Gimp his recovery. You can easily kill a Lucas at 40% since he has one of the more easily punished recoveries.
Don't:
-Play to his tune. Don't let him sit there and play how he wants. Pressure him.
-Get above him. That up smash hurts.
Stages:
My personal two favorites against him: Jungle Japes and Final D.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
I main Zelda/Shiek. Using shiek to get Gdorf to tripple digit damage and then switching to Zelda to KO as soon as the opportunity arises produced ICREDIBLE results for me. I literally 3 stocked a ganondorf that I'd say was well skilled.
Shiek was just way too fast for him to deal with, and Zelda is almost impossible for him to approach.
Shiek was just way too fast for him to deal with, and Zelda is almost impossible for him to approach.
Dragmire
Smash Lord
Ur Doin It Rong
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
Jekyll
Smash Ace
Not sure where else to put this, but I've got a couple of character-specific tidbits to share.
Lucario can chaingrab you with his > B...
Solution: Learn to go ape **** on the controller and break out of it. For some reason, not only can Lucario's Force Palm be broken out of, you can break out of it all the way up to the point where he actually does damage. That gives you plenty of time to break out.
Alternative: You can DI it up at 32%, wiggle and jump...
Ness and Lucas suck...
Advantage: When you grab them, you can just keep hitting them. Once they break out of the grab(if they don't jump break) you can hit them with a jab, d-tilt or f-tilt for a possible early ko.
Lucario can chaingrab you with his > B...
Solution: Learn to go ape **** on the controller and break out of it. For some reason, not only can Lucario's Force Palm be broken out of, you can break out of it all the way up to the point where he actually does damage. That gives you plenty of time to break out.
Alternative: You can DI it up at 32%, wiggle and jump...
Ness and Lucas suck...
Advantage: When you grab them, you can just keep hitting them. Once they break out of the grab(if they don't jump break) you can hit them with a jab, d-tilt or f-tilt for a possible early ko.
:034:
Smash Hero
xxmaliciousxx
Smash Cadet
Against Zelda, Ganondorf's Down-B has priority over Din's Fire.
Oh, and to correct on that Lucario comment about the forcing him to go for the ledge, it's actually much harder to do that than it seems. Most stages have walls either on the sides or undersides, yes? We can cling to those straight out of an ExtremeSpeed and then get back on with Lucario's amazing walljump. Even stages like Final Destination and Battlefield (although the latter is considerably harder) have walls to cling to when we can't make it to the ledge, so make a note of that when fighting on a stage such as Yoshi's Isle or Pictochat. Stages like Smashville might be okay counterpicks, but probably not as good as Pirate Ship or Delfino Isle, where you don't have to worry about our gimps as much, and you can still spike us due to water which doesn't let us live long and means we lose our Aura Boost! ;-;
Also, don't let us stay below 30%. As soon as we respawn, make sure you do not get jabbed or hit with ForcePalm. We've got this awesome chaingrab that works until the 60%+ ranges on Ganondorf. :D However, you CAN break out of it much earlier depending on both his damage and yours. When you're both below 25% or so, if you mash buttons and the control stick fast enough, you'll be able to break out by the second or third one. But once you hit 25% and we're still below 30%, all bets are off and you're getting chained for a several more.
Also, make sure to kill first. It's much much harder for Ganondorf to take down Lucario when he's at higher %, as he'll do all he can to rack damage safely and keep his advantage for as long as possible. Meanwhile, it's kinda obvious, but it IS tough for us to get that kill when we're at low %, even with our extra aura coming from being a stock behind... >.>;
Also, don't let us stay below 30%. As soon as we respawn, make sure you do not get jabbed or hit with ForcePalm. We've got this awesome chaingrab that works until the 60%+ ranges on Ganondorf. :D However, you CAN break out of it much earlier depending on both his damage and yours. When you're both below 25% or so, if you mash buttons and the control stick fast enough, you'll be able to break out by the second or third one. But once you hit 25% and we're still below 30%, all bets are off and you're getting chained for a several more.
Also, make sure to kill first. It's much much harder for Ganondorf to take down Lucario when he's at higher %, as he'll do all he can to rack damage safely and keep his advantage for as long as possible. Meanwhile, it's kinda obvious, but it IS tough for us to get that kill when we're at low %, even with our extra aura coming from being a stock behind... >.>;
Griffard
Smash Ace
OK, i'm sure someone else has thought of this before, but I don't think anyone has said it.
For the Ice Climbers Matchup, CounterPick Jungle Japes. That's it. Just stand there F-tilting and U-airing so they can never successfully approach, and then spike them and separate them. You can up B to the other side of the little ledge things from under them, and all in all it seems great. Plus, if they try to recover, you can edgehog and they automatically at least lose Nana. Hope this helped out
For the Ice Climbers Matchup, CounterPick Jungle Japes. That's it. Just stand there F-tilting and U-airing so they can never successfully approach, and then spike them and separate them. You can up B to the other side of the little ledge things from under them, and all in all it seems great. Plus, if they try to recover, you can edgehog and they automatically at least lose Nana. Hope this helped out
A2ZOMG
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Okay, I'm a G&W main and I second Ganondorf, and I have actually played the Ganondorf vs G&W matchup a number of times online. Granted, I was not playing very good players, but bear with me because I have learned a few tricks that should help in this matchup.
Don't get me wrong, this matchup is really hard and completely out of Ganondorf's favor by at LEAST 7/3. However the good news is that you can punish G&W for making spacing mistakes, and you have attacks that can challenge his range.
Firstoff let me get started with how to challenge his range. F-tilt him. Seriously. If you're willing to take some damage, you can F-tilt through his aerials. You can also D-tilt him, although the hitbox isn't as high, and you will want to keep this attack diminished for killing G&W later since G&W is easy Flame Choke bait. The other thing you can do is if G&W starts D-tilting, you can go for an F-air if your aim is good and this will own him. Chances are if he's D-tilting, he might DI down when you hit him, but setting aside that, this is how you get around his D-tilt.
Oh yeah, mentioning the Flame Choke, punish all of his spacing mistakes with this attack. If you Flame Choke him, you can hit him with pretty much anything immediately after. A jab follow up does 16%, and a D-tilt at around 110% can reliably kill him.
You can punish his rolls with Wizard's foot very easily since his roll is very slow moving.
Now if you're me, and a G&W that happens to know that Ganondorf can swing momentum in his favor, I'm not going to carelessly rush against your Ganondorf unless he's cornered at the ledge. Also, Ganondorf has a really hard time getting around the F-smash, so just don't challenge it at all with anything. I think I can duck under his grab and Wizard's Foot. Also, I'm going to ledgeguard you aggressively since G&W can do that easily, which sucks for Ganondorf a lot.
Don't get me wrong, this matchup is really hard and completely out of Ganondorf's favor by at LEAST 7/3. However the good news is that you can punish G&W for making spacing mistakes, and you have attacks that can challenge his range.
Firstoff let me get started with how to challenge his range. F-tilt him. Seriously. If you're willing to take some damage, you can F-tilt through his aerials. You can also D-tilt him, although the hitbox isn't as high, and you will want to keep this attack diminished for killing G&W later since G&W is easy Flame Choke bait. The other thing you can do is if G&W starts D-tilting, you can go for an F-air if your aim is good and this will own him. Chances are if he's D-tilting, he might DI down when you hit him, but setting aside that, this is how you get around his D-tilt.
Oh yeah, mentioning the Flame Choke, punish all of his spacing mistakes with this attack. If you Flame Choke him, you can hit him with pretty much anything immediately after. A jab follow up does 16%, and a D-tilt at around 110% can reliably kill him.
You can punish his rolls with Wizard's foot very easily since his roll is very slow moving.
Now if you're me, and a G&W that happens to know that Ganondorf can swing momentum in his favor, I'm not going to carelessly rush against your Ganondorf unless he's cornered at the ledge. Also, Ganondorf has a really hard time getting around the F-smash, so just don't challenge it at all with anything. I think I can duck under his grab and Wizard's Foot. Also, I'm going to ledgeguard you aggressively since G&W can do that easily, which sucks for Ganondorf a lot.
Jekyll
Smash Ace
False...Lucario's damage doesn't matter for the method I was talking about. You can break out of ForcePalm WHILE he's holding you and BEFORE he actually throws you.
Roller
Smash Legend
rly? you sure? with JUST DI? or something else too?
Jekyll
Smash Ace
I'll try to describe it better...
When you get grabbed(regular grab with the z button), you can put a bunch of inputs in and break out of the grab. The higher your percentage, the more inputs you have to perform in order to break out. This is why it's harder to break out of a grab at 120% than at 10%.
What exactly counts as an "input"? Well, by pressing a button(any button) you create 1 input. By hitting the C-Stick, you create 1 input (rotating the C-Stick no longer creates multiple inputs). And by rotating the Control Stick, you create 1 input for each direction you hit. This means that you can get 8 inputs for each rotation of the Control Stick. Needless to say, rotating the control stick as rapidly as you can is the best method of breaking out of a grab (along with whatever button presses your right hand can muster up).
This same method works to break out of Lucario's chaingrab. Once Lucario grabs you with his ForcePalm(You hear the click sound that means he's grabbed you), you have until the moment that he throws you (hits you with his blue "aura") to break out.
"But Jekyll," you say, "he's throwing me the whole time. You can't break out in the middle of being thrown!!!11" Try not to think of Lucario's ForcePalm as a throw. Essentially, he just grabs you and holds onto you until he hits you. Since he's just HOLDING onto you until the hit, you can break out that entire time. So once you hear that "click" as he grabs you, DON'T worry about DI and DO move the control stick as fast as you can to break out.
Lucario can chaingrab from 0 to 34% with probably some kind of followup to build up more damage afterwards. You can't DI out at those percentags, so don't worry about getting bad DI by moving the stick around, just break out and save yourself the pain.
A2ZOMG
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I just played a pretty good Peach (BO X7) and here are some things I noticed about this matchup.
For those of you who aren't aware, Ganondorf has a very noticeable blind spot diagonally up in front of him. This matchup can be annoyingly difficult largely because Peach is extremely good at literally hovering right in that blind zone and D-airing you to oblivion. Not to mention she has projectile spam. Not that her projectile spam is all that threatening, but it's annoying, and can equal a free hit for her if you whiff an attack against her. And of course beware the random whatever she pulls out.
To deal with this blind spot, a well timed Up-Smash CAN intercept Peach, but as I said, it needs to be very well timed. The F-air covers your blind spot completely in terms of range and priority, but the problem is it is very laggy when it hits the ground, so you MUST hit with this attack. U-airs and fullhopped rising N-airs can work too if spaced correctly if I recall. Last but not least, I'd try to keep an Up-angled F-smash handy.
The other thing is Peach's priority rivals yours, if it doesn't beat it. Expect to have some priority clashes here and there, so be ready to follow up (and unfortunately, her jab is better than yours. Seriously, and this among other things makes it fairly difficult to punish Peach from the shield). And her Dash attack can punish any of your attacks if you aren't careful.
Don't go above her. She can Up-smash or U-tilt your options to oblivion if you aren't careful.
I'd say this matchup is 65/35 in Peach's favor. It is possible to win it however because she has a ton of trouble KOing early, and you can KO really early if you can land the right attacks.
For those of you who aren't aware, Ganondorf has a very noticeable blind spot diagonally up in front of him. This matchup can be annoyingly difficult largely because Peach is extremely good at literally hovering right in that blind zone and D-airing you to oblivion. Not to mention she has projectile spam. Not that her projectile spam is all that threatening, but it's annoying, and can equal a free hit for her if you whiff an attack against her. And of course beware the random whatever she pulls out.
To deal with this blind spot, a well timed Up-Smash CAN intercept Peach, but as I said, it needs to be very well timed. The F-air covers your blind spot completely in terms of range and priority, but the problem is it is very laggy when it hits the ground, so you MUST hit with this attack. U-airs and fullhopped rising N-airs can work too if spaced correctly if I recall. Last but not least, I'd try to keep an Up-angled F-smash handy.
The other thing is Peach's priority rivals yours, if it doesn't beat it. Expect to have some priority clashes here and there, so be ready to follow up (and unfortunately, her jab is better than yours. Seriously, and this among other things makes it fairly difficult to punish Peach from the shield). And her Dash attack can punish any of your attacks if you aren't careful.
Don't go above her. She can Up-smash or U-tilt your options to oblivion if you aren't careful.
I'd say this matchup is 65/35 in Peach's favor. It is possible to win it however because she has a ton of trouble KOing early, and you can KO really early if you can land the right attacks.
Griffard
Smash Ace
Yeah peach is really hard, my strategy is to get her off the stage as quickly as you can and then edgeguard/fight in the air with your rules
:034:
Smash Hero
One question: wouldn't Thunderstorming help? The hitbox goes up pretty high, so I assume that it might work as well.
A2ZOMG
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No, it doesn't work at all against a Peach who knows how to space and camp. Her aerial mobility is better than yours, and if you try to Thunder Storm against her and miss, she can actually punish it easily with her F-air or D-air. This assumes you even have space to Thunder Storm. Most of the time you won't have enough time to pull out a D-air because most of her high priority aerials like the D-air come out faster than that.
Even if you hit her, it's not going to do anything to her really. Well, it does 23% yeah, which isn't bad, but it just spikes her to the ground, and I have found it extremely difficult to follow up with anything immediately afterwards.
IMO, you need to keep away from Peach, which might sound odd considering that she can camp with Turnips. However I think it is more important to have enough space to be able to react to her whenever she starts pulling out aerial attacks. Of course, do your best to ledgeguard her, because one good hit off the stage will kill her pretty easily since she's light.
Most of Ganondorf's usual ground based shield -> offensive strategies simply do not work in this matchup because Peach is usually controlling the match in your blind zone. For those of you who like spacing D-tilts and F-tilts, avoid doing that in this matchup as that just gives Peach an extended hurtbox for her to capitalize on. =(
:034:
Smash Hero
Updated a bit. I realize the thread is still pretty messy...
Requesting advice on:
DK
Falco
Game & Watch
IC
Jigglypuff (what we have now isn't super recent)
Kirby
Lucas
Marth
Meta Knight (again, no recent info)
Ness
Pikachu
Olimar
Pit
Pokémon Trainer
Samus
Shiek
Snake (again, not recent)
Toon Link
Wario (not recent)
Yoshi
Zelda
ZSS
Requesting advice on:
DK
Falco
Game & Watch
IC
Jigglypuff (what we have now isn't super recent)
Kirby
Lucas
Marth
Meta Knight (again, no recent info)
Ness
Pikachu
Olimar
Pit
Pokémon Trainer
Samus
Shiek
Snake (again, not recent)
Toon Link
Wario (not recent)
Yoshi
Zelda
ZSS
A2ZOMG
Smash Legend
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I think I might have the most knowledge about the G&W matchup in this character forum. If you have any other questions, go ahead and ask. I main G&W and Mario.
Also, Ganondorf's techchase game is so much better than G&W's especially in this matchup. G&W can't D-throw to D-smash you if you always buffer a roll, but you do need to beware of his D-tilt (roll behind him), jab, and U-smash (not quite as bad as it could be, since you are really heavy and fall fast) techchase options. Punish his openings with the Flame Choke. You will not regret it. You can do 16% with him with Jab follow ups. Like...22% with D-tilt or F-tilt follow ups, and if you save either the F-tilt or D-tilt, it can kill him. Also his roll sucks, so it isn't terribly hard to punish him with a Thunder Storm or Dash attack.
All in all, I'd say the matchup is winnable. Just BARELY. Only because you slightly outrange him and can kill him at crazy low percents.
Basically in this matchup, Ganondorf MUST play defensively or die. There is no other way around, since G&W can stop every approach you do with D-tilts or aerials (not to mention his crouch is ridiculously low and can avoid the Wizard's foot IIRC yeah...). If you take a hit, this is an opportunity for G&W to go extremely agressive on you, and mind you G&W is a lot better at dealing damage than you are, which really says something about how ridiculously powerful he is. Otherwise basically, you can keep G&W on his toes by maintaining lots of space between you and him, since you actually outrange him slightly.
Also, Ganondorf's techchase game is so much better than G&W's especially in this matchup. G&W can't D-throw to D-smash you if you always buffer a roll, but you do need to beware of his D-tilt (roll behind him), jab, and U-smash (not quite as bad as it could be, since you are really heavy and fall fast) techchase options. Punish his openings with the Flame Choke. You will not regret it. You can do 16% with him with Jab follow ups. Like...22% with D-tilt or F-tilt follow ups, and if you save either the F-tilt or D-tilt, it can kill him. Also his roll sucks, so it isn't terribly hard to punish him with a Thunder Storm or Dash attack.
All in all, I'd say the matchup is winnable. Just BARELY. Only because you slightly outrange him and can kill him at crazy low percents.
Gleam
Smash Ace
If I could make a note on the Jigglypuff Match. While I agree with most of what Magus-Cie had said, theres a few things I have to disagree on.
Jigglypuffs Ground game is far from good. It's actually pretty terrible to say the least and on the ground, Ganondorf will destroy Jigglypuff without hesitation. Jigglypuff just lacks the reach, KO power and priority to even remotely cause harm to Ganondorf. All of her moves on the ground have that horizontal movement to them like Magus-Cie said, thus making them easy to avoid and punish.
But I think the most important part is that range. Jigglypuff has the worst range in the game basically. On the ground, Jigglypuff has to basically get right up in Ganondorf's face, while Ganondorf can liesurely space himself accordingly and punish mistakes, becuase Jigglypuff has some laggy attacks on her.
Moves like Rollout and Pound, while relatively better than the rest of her Ground game, just doesn't stack up to the better moves that Ganondorf posses like Flame Choke, Dtilt, Jab which basically beats all of Jigglypuff's ground game.
Not to mention Ganondorf can do all the Flame Choke Follow ups.
--
In the air Jigglypuff has a better aerial game, but...Ganondorf has better attacks. Like on the ground, Ganondorf's reach, KO power and everything else>Jigglypuff Aerial attack. The worst thing Ganondorf must look out for here is WOP. Now WOP can be irksome at points, but thinks to your longer reach, lack of hitstun, and Multiple air dodging. WOP isn't nearly as destructive as it could be.
Jigglypuff is light, while Ganondorf is heavy. Ganondorf can KO Jigglypuff in the high double digits, while Jigglypuff, unless she can get a good WOP in, has to get Ganondorf twice as high before a KO can be valuable.
If there was ever a match in which I thougt Ganondorf had the advantage, if not a big one, this is it. Its like David vs. Goliath. Jigglypuff has the potential to beat Ganondorf, but Ganondorf's just a giant brute that could kill Jigglypuff without question.
Jigglypuffs Ground game is far from good. It's actually pretty terrible to say the least and on the ground, Ganondorf will destroy Jigglypuff without hesitation. Jigglypuff just lacks the reach, KO power and priority to even remotely cause harm to Ganondorf. All of her moves on the ground have that horizontal movement to them like Magus-Cie said, thus making them easy to avoid and punish.
But I think the most important part is that range. Jigglypuff has the worst range in the game basically. On the ground, Jigglypuff has to basically get right up in Ganondorf's face, while Ganondorf can liesurely space himself accordingly and punish mistakes, becuase Jigglypuff has some laggy attacks on her.
Moves like Rollout and Pound, while relatively better than the rest of her Ground game, just doesn't stack up to the better moves that Ganondorf posses like Flame Choke, Dtilt, Jab which basically beats all of Jigglypuff's ground game.
Not to mention Ganondorf can do all the Flame Choke Follow ups.
--
In the air Jigglypuff has a better aerial game, but...Ganondorf has better attacks. Like on the ground, Ganondorf's reach, KO power and everything else>Jigglypuff Aerial attack. The worst thing Ganondorf must look out for here is WOP. Now WOP can be irksome at points, but thinks to your longer reach, lack of hitstun, and Multiple air dodging. WOP isn't nearly as destructive as it could be.
Jigglypuff is light, while Ganondorf is heavy. Ganondorf can KO Jigglypuff in the high double digits, while Jigglypuff, unless she can get a good WOP in, has to get Ganondorf twice as high before a KO can be valuable.
If there was ever a match in which I thougt Ganondorf had the advantage, if not a big one, this is it. Its like David vs. Goliath. Jigglypuff has the potential to beat Ganondorf, but Ganondorf's just a giant brute that could kill Jigglypuff without question.
crap monkey
Smash Rookie
Where the hell is the Pikachu match up? My friend is kicking my *** with him.
A2ZOMG
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Pikachu is really tricky to deal with. One missed attack, and he could wind up in your blind spot with QAC and you can expect to be punished.
Not to mention I think he has a chaingrab on you. And Thunderjolts are really gay to work around on battlefield. On battlefield if he spams them on platforms, they can curve under the platforms and hit you. NASTY. Especially since he can spam them fairly quickly. Not sure if it's better on FD, but it's absolutely a pain on battlefield at the very least.
What I find works somewhat to deter QAC abuse is Thunderstorming every so often, since this hits a little bit on both sides, and if it hits, he won't like it of course.
The real problem is getting around that spam which can go like everywhere. Try to powershield it of course. Attacking it works sometimes too, but beware if he QACs and stuff.
His recovery is too hard to deal with so trying to spike him pretty much doesn't work when he Up-Bs.
His B-air and F-air are really hard to deal with. Shielding and punishing them is difficult.If he tries to weave in and out with those aerials, shield until he retreats, and try to get a running grab on him.
All in all a bad matchup. I'd say something like 7/3 or 8/2 in Pikachu's favor. Of course, the Pikachu has to know what he's doing because you outrange him and he's lightweight, but one that is in control of himself is pretty nasty.
To get around Thunder jolts, I think Smashville sounds like a good counterpick. The moving platform doesn't work well for either Pikachu's Thunder or Thunder jolts from what I see.
Not to mention I think he has a chaingrab on you. And Thunderjolts are really gay to work around on battlefield. On battlefield if he spams them on platforms, they can curve under the platforms and hit you. NASTY. Especially since he can spam them fairly quickly. Not sure if it's better on FD, but it's absolutely a pain on battlefield at the very least.
What I find works somewhat to deter QAC abuse is Thunderstorming every so often, since this hits a little bit on both sides, and if it hits, he won't like it of course.
The real problem is getting around that spam which can go like everywhere. Try to powershield it of course. Attacking it works sometimes too, but beware if he QACs and stuff.
His recovery is too hard to deal with so trying to spike him pretty much doesn't work when he Up-Bs.
His B-air and F-air are really hard to deal with. Shielding and punishing them is difficult.If he tries to weave in and out with those aerials, shield until he retreats, and try to get a running grab on him.
All in all a bad matchup. I'd say something like 7/3 or 8/2 in Pikachu's favor. Of course, the Pikachu has to know what he's doing because you outrange him and he's lightweight, but one that is in control of himself is pretty nasty.
To get around Thunder jolts, I think Smashville sounds like a good counterpick. The moving platform doesn't work well for either Pikachu's Thunder or Thunder jolts from what I see.