The X means there's no way the attack will hit if the target goes that way. If Mario DIs towards you(in an attempt to roll behind you) or doesn't DI at all(get up attack), it won't land. It's always safer to use a standing down tilt on Mario, since it will always connect.
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"How do I beat ___?", the Ganondorf Match-Up Thread
- Thread starter :034:
- Start date
Dragmire
Smash Lord
I noticed no one had put up a VS wario so let's see what I can say
ganondorf is a fairly even matchup against wario because they are both slow heavy and damagers. ganondorf's Forward b although naturally a need for ganon to use is especially good against wario. because he has a small rolling after being hit so chaining it is quite easy. a great technique is also to take out the bike immediately. chucking the bike it self or getting the wheels allow great combos. try throwing the bike up grab and chain combo with this. what to avoid are his comboing attacks like Dair into ________ also I found when fighting wario there is a very small chance for wario to bite and actually wairocide?!! I also notice Usmash to be a good fakeout or attack. try Usmashing then jabbing for a quick combo starter then follow up with whatever the situation calls for one of the biggest things to watch out for is the fact is he's heavy and kills ganondorf around 95% so he can be something a dangerous threat.
hope this is a good overview of VS wario
ganondorf is a fairly even matchup against wario because they are both slow heavy and damagers. ganondorf's Forward b although naturally a need for ganon to use is especially good against wario. because he has a small rolling after being hit so chaining it is quite easy. a great technique is also to take out the bike immediately. chucking the bike it self or getting the wheels allow great combos. try throwing the bike up grab and chain combo with this. what to avoid are his comboing attacks like Dair into ________ also I found when fighting wario there is a very small chance for wario to bite and actually wairocide?!! I also notice Usmash to be a good fakeout or attack. try Usmashing then jabbing for a quick combo starter then follow up with whatever the situation calls for one of the biggest things to watch out for is the fact is he's heavy and kills ganondorf around 95% so he can be something a dangerous threat.
hope this is a good overview of VS wario
Anomilus
Smash Lord
I'm definitely no stranger to his chain-grab spiking shennanigins. A key note to remember is that Falco desperately wants to grab ya when you're at an early percentage. The guy I fight likes to do whatever he can to get an opening or cause me to leave an opening so he can grab. Unfortunately when he did this, I was also playing Falco, so I could only give a tidbit advice from that angle. Basically, focus on keeping just out of Falco's reflector range, but also short hopping is good here as it limits the chances for grabs.
Well, this really isn't helping this topic as it's leaning more towards a mere "Anti-Falco" post and not a way to counter with Ganondorf. If I actually remember too, I'll fight him with Ganondorf again. It's just that I use like 10 different characters (one of them being Pokemon Trainer), so I go in and out of using Ganondorf.
Wario's not that heavy. Judging from the height that Sonic threw certain people at certain %'s, Wario's on par with Marth and the Star Fox group, weight-wise. His fat(/sexymuscles) gives the illusion that he is heavy though.
If you want to help gimp Wario's recovery, you can take him off the bike, leave it intact and just guard it. It depends on the Wario's playstyle. Bike jump is a bit predictable, so you can take advantage of that, if that's your style.
Wario users in his forum tend to describe him as being like Jigglypuff, so it seems he has decent air game, only hurt by his range.
Dragmire
Smash Lord
I suppose these results came from fighting my brother (not a reliable source) and thanks for not rating me like an ***
Anomilus
Smash Lord
I finally have something to add to this topic, but it's regarding Lucario, not Falco.
When Magus-Cie said to play aggresively, that didn't make much sense...until just today when I had a bunch of Lucario matches with 2 different people. I now understand how an aggressive Ganondorf can work!
Firstly and foremost, defensive Ganondorf does NOT work that well against Lucario. Lucario simply beats out defensive Ganondorf with priority and superior spacing. It's kind of tough to explain, but the more you try to space yourself against Lucario, the more chances he gets to surprise you with his own spacing, range, and priority. His projectiles will pressure you if you're not close enough, if he gets you in the air, you're more likely to get beat up badly by retreating, and the delay on his smashes make rolling around Lucario pretty difficult. If you shield, more often than not Lucario won't be close enough to punish him out of your shield, and if you are close enough, Lucario likes to use Side B to push you away or grab you. So with all of this, how in the world does getting aggressive improve your chances?
Lucario users I played like their space. They sometimes approach you directly, but mainly they roll around, try and get behind you. When this happens, roll with them, as if you're trying to get behind them (better if you remain just a bit behind Lucario). Odds are they'll roll again because Lucario can't easy punish rolling away, so they need to get in position. But now you got them. If Lucario's still a bit in front of you, D-Smash or Thunderstomp 'em. If he's behind you, Thunderstomp or Flame Choke, then follow up with the appropiate move. Just make sure to not let Lucario get into a favorable position.
If Lucario does get away, he's gonna start charging Auraspheres. Do not fear this, but close the distance. If he throws anl Aurasphere to stop your pursuit, throw out a Dash A to snuff it while continuing to close the distance. This pressures Lucario into throwing out one of his smash attacks. It's predictable at this point that you can shield and continue putting pressure on him. He wants to get away or get you away, but closing the distance forces him to either get very defensive or offensive which can work to your advantage.
Oh, and this doesn't just apply to small Auraspheres (as I initially assumed). From 0%-116%, Dash A can snuff fully charged Auraspheres too! At 117% though it'll outprioritize Dashes. F-Smash can snuff them for longer, but by then you should be killing Lucario. Shielding is obviously a less risky option, but this tactic is a bit of a mindgame against Lucario. Also, if Lucario would be close enough to grab you out of your shield, Dash hitting Aurasphere removes that option. Once he starts seeing Ganondorf devouring his projectiles, he'll resort to either throwing them at you while you're in the air (air dodge 'em) or throwing 'em while closer - a rather predictable strategy honestly. While you want to get aggressive, you won't be totally dropping your defense, so keep on guard for a close-ranged Aurasphere. If you're close enough, and you predict Aurasphere, try Dash attacking once more to interrupt it!
Lucario's only other option then is closing the distance. In this manner it really is up to how the opponent plays, but once Lucario gets offensive, it's not too hard to switch back up to a more defensive style. Just continue putting pressure on him to be offensive, which in turn actually weakens his spacing game just a bit. I will warn though against two particular moves Lucario has. First is Double Team. If Lucario starts using this, it's gonna make it a bit harder to get aggressive. Fortunately it's easily punished if whiffed. The other move is Lucario's UTilt. It's a nasty little move that can catch close enough opponents, combo, and get you in the air where you usually don't want to be.
A small tip regarding air combat. If Lucario has you in the air, your two options are to retreat and to Wizard Foot. Retreating depends on the distance between you and Lucario, but if he's close enough, he'll catch up to you and beat you up, meaning you have to Wizard Foot through him. You'll most likely trade hits, but it gets both of you back to the ground. Well...sometimes only you return to the ground, but that's okay. Lucario will bolster himself with DAirs, so just get close enough to punish him as he's about to land.
Finally, DO edgeguard Lucario! Do what you can to knock Lucario off the ledge, then gimp his recovery. He has his dangerous aerials, but even one good UAir spike can make the difference. Key though is to get him to use Extremespeed to grab the ledge. The move is easy to see coming, and it's not an attack, so it's your best bet for KOing him.If he's high enough, he'll more likely aim for the stage floor. Concentrate on grabbing the ledge, but watch him. If you believe he has enough height to bypass the ledge, get back on stage and punish his move lag!
So in summary....
> If Lucario likes to roll behind you, train him to roll often so he's opened to D-Smash, Thunderstomps, or even Flame Choke
> Dash A devours Auraspheres until Lucario reaches 117%. Dash through 'em, close the distance, and force his hand. React appropiately to his reaction afterwards
> Once Lucario gets directly offensive, being defensive will let you keep up with him. Just watch out for Double Team or U-tilt
> If in the air, retreat if far enough, but otherwise use Wizard Foot to get back to the ground
> Edgeguard!! Get Lucario off the edge, keep him low, then ledgehog and gimp his recovery. Punish him if he aims for the stage itself
As SporcsAndHumans put it, you gotta have the better mindgames here. Fortunately it isn't as hard (with at least certain Lucario players) for Ganondorf as I originally thought. Though Lucarios vary in playstyle, they generally want to space themselves with rolls or lesser attacks so they can sweetspot their smash attacks, spam Auraspheres, and juggle with launchers or aerials. If you keep that in mind, you can quickly ascertain how your opponent plays their Lucario, then pressure them out of their strongpoints and make them resort to tactics they're not as good at. Do that, and Ganondorf will eventually overpower them.
Oh...and do NOT let Lucario live to high percentages. There's no major strategy to this. Ganondorf can kill Lucario at at least 100%, so do so to prevent Lucario from getting too powerful.
I hope this really helps! Please tell me if somethings don't work as well.
When Magus-Cie said to play aggresively, that didn't make much sense...until just today when I had a bunch of Lucario matches with 2 different people. I now understand how an aggressive Ganondorf can work!
Firstly and foremost, defensive Ganondorf does NOT work that well against Lucario. Lucario simply beats out defensive Ganondorf with priority and superior spacing. It's kind of tough to explain, but the more you try to space yourself against Lucario, the more chances he gets to surprise you with his own spacing, range, and priority. His projectiles will pressure you if you're not close enough, if he gets you in the air, you're more likely to get beat up badly by retreating, and the delay on his smashes make rolling around Lucario pretty difficult. If you shield, more often than not Lucario won't be close enough to punish him out of your shield, and if you are close enough, Lucario likes to use Side B to push you away or grab you. So with all of this, how in the world does getting aggressive improve your chances?
Lucario users I played like their space. They sometimes approach you directly, but mainly they roll around, try and get behind you. When this happens, roll with them, as if you're trying to get behind them (better if you remain just a bit behind Lucario). Odds are they'll roll again because Lucario can't easy punish rolling away, so they need to get in position. But now you got them. If Lucario's still a bit in front of you, D-Smash or Thunderstomp 'em. If he's behind you, Thunderstomp or Flame Choke, then follow up with the appropiate move. Just make sure to not let Lucario get into a favorable position.
If Lucario does get away, he's gonna start charging Auraspheres. Do not fear this, but close the distance. If he throws anl Aurasphere to stop your pursuit, throw out a Dash A to snuff it while continuing to close the distance. This pressures Lucario into throwing out one of his smash attacks. It's predictable at this point that you can shield and continue putting pressure on him. He wants to get away or get you away, but closing the distance forces him to either get very defensive or offensive which can work to your advantage.
Oh, and this doesn't just apply to small Auraspheres (as I initially assumed). From 0%-116%, Dash A can snuff fully charged Auraspheres too! At 117% though it'll outprioritize Dashes. F-Smash can snuff them for longer, but by then you should be killing Lucario. Shielding is obviously a less risky option, but this tactic is a bit of a mindgame against Lucario. Also, if Lucario would be close enough to grab you out of your shield, Dash hitting Aurasphere removes that option. Once he starts seeing Ganondorf devouring his projectiles, he'll resort to either throwing them at you while you're in the air (air dodge 'em) or throwing 'em while closer - a rather predictable strategy honestly. While you want to get aggressive, you won't be totally dropping your defense, so keep on guard for a close-ranged Aurasphere. If you're close enough, and you predict Aurasphere, try Dash attacking once more to interrupt it!
Lucario's only other option then is closing the distance. In this manner it really is up to how the opponent plays, but once Lucario gets offensive, it's not too hard to switch back up to a more defensive style. Just continue putting pressure on him to be offensive, which in turn actually weakens his spacing game just a bit. I will warn though against two particular moves Lucario has. First is Double Team. If Lucario starts using this, it's gonna make it a bit harder to get aggressive. Fortunately it's easily punished if whiffed. The other move is Lucario's UTilt. It's a nasty little move that can catch close enough opponents, combo, and get you in the air where you usually don't want to be.
A small tip regarding air combat. If Lucario has you in the air, your two options are to retreat and to Wizard Foot. Retreating depends on the distance between you and Lucario, but if he's close enough, he'll catch up to you and beat you up, meaning you have to Wizard Foot through him. You'll most likely trade hits, but it gets both of you back to the ground. Well...sometimes only you return to the ground, but that's okay. Lucario will bolster himself with DAirs, so just get close enough to punish him as he's about to land.
Finally, DO edgeguard Lucario! Do what you can to knock Lucario off the ledge, then gimp his recovery. He has his dangerous aerials, but even one good UAir spike can make the difference. Key though is to get him to use Extremespeed to grab the ledge. The move is easy to see coming, and it's not an attack, so it's your best bet for KOing him.If he's high enough, he'll more likely aim for the stage floor. Concentrate on grabbing the ledge, but watch him. If you believe he has enough height to bypass the ledge, get back on stage and punish his move lag!
So in summary....
> If Lucario likes to roll behind you, train him to roll often so he's opened to D-Smash, Thunderstomps, or even Flame Choke
> Dash A devours Auraspheres until Lucario reaches 117%. Dash through 'em, close the distance, and force his hand. React appropiately to his reaction afterwards
> Once Lucario gets directly offensive, being defensive will let you keep up with him. Just watch out for Double Team or U-tilt
> If in the air, retreat if far enough, but otherwise use Wizard Foot to get back to the ground
> Edgeguard!! Get Lucario off the edge, keep him low, then ledgehog and gimp his recovery. Punish him if he aims for the stage itself
As SporcsAndHumans put it, you gotta have the better mindgames here. Fortunately it isn't as hard (with at least certain Lucario players) for Ganondorf as I originally thought. Though Lucarios vary in playstyle, they generally want to space themselves with rolls or lesser attacks so they can sweetspot their smash attacks, spam Auraspheres, and juggle with launchers or aerials. If you keep that in mind, you can quickly ascertain how your opponent plays their Lucario, then pressure them out of their strongpoints and make them resort to tactics they're not as good at. Do that, and Ganondorf will eventually overpower them.
Oh...and do NOT let Lucario live to high percentages. There's no major strategy to this. Ganondorf can kill Lucario at at least 100%, so do so to prevent Lucario from getting too powerful.
I hope this really helps! Please tell me if somethings don't work as well.
:034:
Smash Hero
Added stuff.
Btw, the Sonic matchup might be a little weird.
Someone in the Sonic boards quoted from this thread and pretty much used it to show that Sonic might have an advantage against Ganondorf, and that most of what was said was assuming a nooby Sonic player.
Among other things, Sonic's aerial game is not just made of U-airs. His F-air is a gimpmonster off stage, and it keeps you trapped in a combo, while his B-air is actually one of his stronger KO moves (can KO a Ganondorf at 130-140% from the center of FD).
Spring makes it harder for you to catch him, and midair Spring can drop and be used to gimp recoveries.
If there's a "Don't" for a good Sonic, then don't let him take you off the edge - gimping is one of Sonic's biggest strengths.
Someone in the Sonic boards quoted from this thread and pretty much used it to show that Sonic might have an advantage against Ganondorf, and that most of what was said was assuming a nooby Sonic player.
Among other things, Sonic's aerial game is not just made of U-airs. His F-air is a gimpmonster off stage, and it keeps you trapped in a combo, while his B-air is actually one of his stronger KO moves (can KO a Ganondorf at 130-140% from the center of FD).
Spring makes it harder for you to catch him, and midair Spring can drop and be used to gimp recoveries.
If there's a "Don't" for a good Sonic, then don't let him take you off the edge - gimping is one of Sonic's biggest strengths.
:034:
Smash Hero
It's just that ON the stage, Ganondorf is very good against Sonic. You will spend most of your time on the stage, since Sonic doesn't have enough good "get this ****er off the stage" moves (all I can think of is forward smash as a good option).
Sonic will be on the approach most of the time and Ganondorf is a better defensive player - he has tons of OoS options such as flame choke, palm plant and thunder storm.
But yeah, I'll try to get some more practice against Sonic.
:034:
Smash Hero
That'd be good. The only Sonic I'm currently facing is pretty noobish, but he doesn't play the game all that often. Where do you live though? Lag might become super insane if you're too far away.
Twilight Emblem
Banned via Warnings
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2008
- Messages
- 162
I got ***** by ness. Somebody, hold me T-T
PKfire-nair-jab-sidestep my jab- pk fire- jab cancel- grab-back throw
then procceded too pull off other crazy ****. i couldnt approach, any advice?
And my bad flying dutchman, this should be the only matchup thread.
Playing a ness like that with lag messing up my spot dodge timing amoung other things is just down right scary. this ness was especially keen on predicting peoples pk fire reactions for nice openings. it waited too see my spotdodge patterns and pk fired when my spotdodge just ended. x.x
PKfire-nair-jab-sidestep my jab- pk fire- jab cancel- grab-back throw
then procceded too pull off other crazy ****. i couldnt approach, any advice?
And my bad flying dutchman, this should be the only matchup thread.
Playing a ness like that with lag messing up my spot dodge timing amoung other things is just down right scary. this ness was especially keen on predicting peoples pk fire reactions for nice openings. it waited too see my spotdodge patterns and pk fired when my spotdodge just ended. x.x
Devil7
Smash Journeyman
People who use projectile like ness I found will use as soon as you get close so perfect shield and roll then attack
This thread is awesome and I was wondering if it could include moves that Ganondorf has that can out prioritize specific moves from the other characters listed. I always read about moves having lots of priority but there's no comprehensive list.
Like:
- F-tilt defeats Pikachu's bouncy spark thing (neutral B I think)
- U-Smash works on Ike's Aether while he's coming down directly above you.
Also, why isn't this thread stickied yet?
Like:
- F-tilt defeats Pikachu's bouncy spark thing (neutral B I think)
- U-Smash works on Ike's Aether while he's coming down directly above you.
Also, why isn't this thread stickied yet?
:034:
Smash Hero
This = good idea.
I know that Upsmash > Sonic's dair at the exact tip of the attack, but not much else.
Because nobody ever comes here. ):
for the more.. suicidal/flashy people, if you do a midair down-B and spike someone with it off-stage, you will get a slowdown enough to recover with your up-B.
...but if you miss, you're screwed.
I tried playing online 1v1 against other people out of state for the first time yesterday and got my butt handed to me D:
I'm just a scrub with knowledge (and little/no reflex lol) or maybe I just suck online ._.;
Do you have an allisbrawl account? The chatroom/match-making system there is really convenient.
...but if you miss, you're screwed.
I live in GA.
I tried playing online 1v1 against other people out of state for the first time yesterday and got my butt handed to me D:
I'm just a scrub with knowledge (and little/no reflex lol) or maybe I just suck online ._.;
Do you have an allisbrawl account? The chatroom/match-making system there is really convenient.
I am going to have to read through this all again, because I have been away for awhile, but long story short, Lucario has become my second main. I won't get into the reasons for that....so on to some tips for fighting him.
In a match of 2 simplistic players of equal skill, GDorf will lose. Mindgames really are the key.
First of all, keep him close at all times, and don't let him charge that aura sphere. Yes, you can dash through it at lower percentages, but a good Lucario player will pull it out when say...you are off the side of the level and need to recover. Many, many times as playing Lucario, I have beaten people simply by juggling them off the edge with AS.
Second, at about 70~80%, stop going for damage moves, and go for smashes or kill moves. Everyone who says you shouldn't let a Lucario get up in damage is absolutely right. Granted, his smashes and AS's hurt more at higher percentages, but so does double team.
Above all else, get inside Lucario's head, or at least make sure he doesn't get in yours, if for no other reason that a double team HURTS. With his speed and relative power compared to GDorf, I honestly think that this is his worst matchup.
In a match of 2 simplistic players of equal skill, GDorf will lose. Mindgames really are the key.
First of all, keep him close at all times, and don't let him charge that aura sphere. Yes, you can dash through it at lower percentages, but a good Lucario player will pull it out when say...you are off the side of the level and need to recover. Many, many times as playing Lucario, I have beaten people simply by juggling them off the edge with AS.
Second, at about 70~80%, stop going for damage moves, and go for smashes or kill moves. Everyone who says you shouldn't let a Lucario get up in damage is absolutely right. Granted, his smashes and AS's hurt more at higher percentages, but so does double team.
Above all else, get inside Lucario's head, or at least make sure he doesn't get in yours, if for no other reason that a double team HURTS. With his speed and relative power compared to GDorf, I honestly think that this is his worst matchup.
btw I've played online alot since then, and so since I don't really play vs computers anymore, I've improved considerably.
...watch out for them Sonics D:
FD can probably tell you more from the Ganondorf standpoint.
----
[edit]
Swil/Swoll can too ._.;
Calixto
Smash Apprentice
Added further insight on Metaknight by way of an edit.
Would add more on other characters, but other people seem to have it covered.
Would add more on other characters, but other people seem to have it covered.
Anytime_Minutes
Smash Apprentice
Game and Watch: Bend over and kiss your *** good bye 
Dragmire
Smash Lord
that would be ice climbers
Anytime_Minutes
Smash Apprentice
turtle ****
lain
Smash Master
honestly, i'd think that ganon counters rob. : /
hitting rob off the stage, they can either do two things. come to the stage from below, or above. if they com from below, it is notoriously easy to dair them. if they come from above, you're already putting them at a disadvantage because rob's air moves suck (at least in this situation), and it's really easy to uair him.
hitting rob off the stage, they can either do two things. come to the stage from below, or above. if they com from below, it is notoriously easy to dair them. if they come from above, you're already putting them at a disadvantage because rob's air moves suck (at least in this situation), and it's really easy to uair him.
As an avid player of both Wario and Ganondorf, I think the matchup between the two actually goes in Wario's favor at least a fair deal, if not severely.
Wario moves at least twice as fast horizontally in mid-air as Ganondorf; that's completely exploitable by Wario. Ganon's greatly-spaced D-Tilt will do very little to Wario, since his approach revolves around his crazy aerial mobility. Wario will continue short-hop -> anything, just like he's always done.
Ganondorf's lack of mobility in general also greatly hinders him. Most of his options are stuffed by Bite. U-Air will be nice if you manage to get Wario above you, simply because it's one of the very few things you can do against him that will keep you safe.
Edgeguarding is also very skewed in Wario's favor; with a Jigglypuff-esque recovery, he can finish you quickly and return to the stage with ease, while a smart Wario should be able to outmaneuver Ganondorf and recover with little trouble.
As Ganondorf, I imagine you'd have to play very defensively; try stuffing Wario's shorthop pokes with short-hopped Back-Airs (not too often, though; he'll catch on and bait you with a SH air-dodge; Wario has the same aerial movement while air-dodging). If you're stuck in close with him, you should try Thunderstorming, as Wario doesn't have a straight-up counter to it. Be very wary of his F-Smash on the way up, however. If there's one thing you have on Wario, it's range. Spacing will be key. If he gets close enough to attack your shield with his D-Air, you need to move out. He'll run circles around you with that move alone. You also need to focus on getting quick, lagless moves off; Wario's too fast and lagless to fight otherwise.
In my mind, it's at least a 3-7; give or take one point on either side.
Wario moves at least twice as fast horizontally in mid-air as Ganondorf; that's completely exploitable by Wario. Ganon's greatly-spaced D-Tilt will do very little to Wario, since his approach revolves around his crazy aerial mobility. Wario will continue short-hop -> anything, just like he's always done.
Ganondorf's lack of mobility in general also greatly hinders him. Most of his options are stuffed by Bite. U-Air will be nice if you manage to get Wario above you, simply because it's one of the very few things you can do against him that will keep you safe.
Edgeguarding is also very skewed in Wario's favor; with a Jigglypuff-esque recovery, he can finish you quickly and return to the stage with ease, while a smart Wario should be able to outmaneuver Ganondorf and recover with little trouble.
As Ganondorf, I imagine you'd have to play very defensively; try stuffing Wario's shorthop pokes with short-hopped Back-Airs (not too often, though; he'll catch on and bait you with a SH air-dodge; Wario has the same aerial movement while air-dodging). If you're stuck in close with him, you should try Thunderstorming, as Wario doesn't have a straight-up counter to it. Be very wary of his F-Smash on the way up, however. If there's one thing you have on Wario, it's range. Spacing will be key. If he gets close enough to attack your shield with his D-Air, you need to move out. He'll run circles around you with that move alone. You also need to focus on getting quick, lagless moves off; Wario's too fast and lagless to fight otherwise.
In my mind, it's at least a 3-7; give or take one point on either side.
Dragmire
Smash Lord
your wario guide covered more than mine did good work
by the end of the day I will have a mario guide to share with all big brawl session and everyone plays mario ecxept me
by the end of the day I will have a mario guide to share with all big brawl session and everyone plays mario ecxept me
Anomilus
Smash Lord
Finally, a decent write-up regarding a Wario vs Ganondorf match up! It's been bugging me badly for a few days now....and for a good reason.
I went lurking at the Wario board, and they have Wario vs. Ganondorf as a 9-1 match-up in favor of Wario. Their reason? Nothing. I could not find any relevant arguments at all why they came to such a conclusion.
Rather, in place of any decent reasoning was a cynical "...yeah". That's it. They've simply jumped aboard the Ganon bashing train. Even Capt. Falcon got an 8-2 and at least some small comment, but they seem to believe the idea of Ganondorf doing even decently against Wario is laughable. I can definitely figure that Ganondorf is at a disadvantage, but it's just a practice in ignorance to assume he has next-to-nothing on Wario and not even back up the claim.
Well in anycase, regarding TheReflexWonder's analysis, I was just wondering how FTilt and USmash performs against Wario. I know FTilt doesn't haf DTilt's range, but it hits a bit higher. With USmash, you don't need to have Ganon's foot touch the opponent to connect, and the move has IASA frames, so it has baiting potential. Are either of these moves of any worth? Since I have nobody except a CPU to test these things on, all I can assume is that FTilt would run into trouble with some of his SH'd attacks and Bite, and USmash doesn't have the quickest start-up or the best range.
I was also curious about SH'd Flame Chokes, but I'll just assume Wario's aerials simply prevent any chance of a successful grab. I really wish I had somebody who played a decent Wario, but I don't.
I went lurking at the Wario board, and they have Wario vs. Ganondorf as a 9-1 match-up in favor of Wario. Their reason? Nothing. I could not find any relevant arguments at all why they came to such a conclusion.
Rather, in place of any decent reasoning was a cynical "...yeah". That's it. They've simply jumped aboard the Ganon bashing train. Even Capt. Falcon got an 8-2 and at least some small comment, but they seem to believe the idea of Ganondorf doing even decently against Wario is laughable. I can definitely figure that Ganondorf is at a disadvantage, but it's just a practice in ignorance to assume he has next-to-nothing on Wario and not even back up the claim.
Well in anycase, regarding TheReflexWonder's analysis, I was just wondering how FTilt and USmash performs against Wario. I know FTilt doesn't haf DTilt's range, but it hits a bit higher. With USmash, you don't need to have Ganon's foot touch the opponent to connect, and the move has IASA frames, so it has baiting potential. Are either of these moves of any worth? Since I have nobody except a CPU to test these things on, all I can assume is that FTilt would run into trouble with some of his SH'd attacks and Bite, and USmash doesn't have the quickest start-up or the best range.
I was also curious about SH'd Flame Chokes, but I'll just assume Wario's aerials simply prevent any chance of a successful grab. I really wish I had somebody who played a decent Wario, but I don't.
Dragmire
Smash Lord
Ftilt is good but becuase he has amazing horzontal recovery it's not the most reliable killing move
U smash how ever is a great way for comboing at very low %'s or killing and high %'s BTW U smash has ridiculous range
My less useful guide is on the first page for Vs wario basics but reflexwonders guide is advanced VS Wario
U smash how ever is a great way for comboing at very low %'s or killing and high %'s BTW U smash has ridiculous range
My less useful guide is on the first page for Vs wario basics but reflexwonders guide is advanced VS Wario
:034:
Smash Hero
Eh? No, I wouldn't say so.
R.O.B. has two projectiles, which is already bad news for Ganon. They're not super spammable, but they still work. R.O.B. has quick, strong attacks that can easily rack damage (sidestep to downsmash amirite?). You can hardly edgeguard him because his Up+B allows him to go under stages, to the other side, and this is even easier with a couple of bairs.
With the projectiles, the damage racking, R.O.B. is a good edgeguarder as well, with fair and sometimes nair. And he has killing moves ON stage as well, though not as many.
Yeah, that bothered me a good bit, too, to be honest. Not as much work into the matchups there as I would've liked. Ah, well; I'm here to help. I understand how lurking and seeing that guide would bug a Ganon player.
I could see F-Tilt having some merit, if only because it does have good range and power, but it's not something you can throw out often, since it leaves you open. You could probably catch a missed F-Smash or a late aerial attempt with it.
U-Smash (Ganondorf Tae-Bo is what I call it) could actually stuff some Wario approaches, I'd imagine. That might actually even be mildly spammable. The IASA and deceptively good range could really work in Ganon's favor. It's still not incredibly fast, which might be a pain. Wario might try to bait them after a time, but you'd be relatively safe at first. Sounds like a good bet to me.
As for SH Flame Choke in general, Wario should be able to avoid it easily with a mobile air-dodge, and that's assuming he doesn't simply stop it with an aerial. It could also be a free Wario Waft for him...
lain
Smash Master
ROB is good at edgegaurding if you're really predictable, or if you're just plain bad off the stage.
Honestly, it's not that hard to not get gimped by ROB. Plus, Flame choke -> dtilt kills at 120ish.
*shrugs* it's also still REALLY easy to spike rob because rob can't airdodge doing his upb. speaking from much experience, your opponent being above you USUALLY means they are at the disadvantage. it puts pressure on them.
Honestly, it's not that hard to not get gimped by ROB. Plus, Flame choke -> dtilt kills at 120ish.
*shrugs* it's also still REALLY easy to spike rob because rob can't airdodge doing his upb. speaking from much experience, your opponent being above you USUALLY means they are at the disadvantage. it puts pressure on them.
Calixto
Smash Apprentice
Further thoughts on Jigglypuff:
Fighting Jigglypuff is when I feel the most at a disadvantage. She can totally take advantage of Ganon's lack of speed because of her mobility in the air. The Jigglypuff info posted does help, but I'd thought I'd add some more.
Jiggly's Pound (Forward B) is brutal. A player in my group who mains her has become extremely proficient in its use and it is obnoxious. Difficult to counter an approach with it because the hitbox has so much priority and because it lasts so long. Shield Grabing will not always work here if its placed correctly. Other attacks you can shield grab just fine, but be careful of this one. I'm not sure yet what to counter it with (maybe Up+B out of shield?).
Do not, under any circumstance, forget about the Thunderstorm. It will slaughter Jigglypuff, but there is a catch: due to her mobility, you will have to learn to DI it properly. A running Thunderstorm or just one with proper movement will give you an edge here.
Additionally, because Jigglypuff will try some wall of pain, remember that your D-air has a huge hitbox. it encompasses most of Ganon's body, which is handy in case a Jiggly tries to meet you in the air. You can get a easy kill with it, and it will scare off the Jiggs from getting to close for a WoP (Ganoncide is not always effective against tis edge guard, she is too mobile and her hitboxes seem to stick around a bit.).
Try to keep your Flame Choke combos/set ups going as long as you can, you don't need much damage to kill Jiggs and the little you can squeeze from here is much easier to get than trying to catch her floating about the stage.
Fighting Jigglypuff is when I feel the most at a disadvantage. She can totally take advantage of Ganon's lack of speed because of her mobility in the air. The Jigglypuff info posted does help, but I'd thought I'd add some more.
Jiggly's Pound (Forward B) is brutal. A player in my group who mains her has become extremely proficient in its use and it is obnoxious. Difficult to counter an approach with it because the hitbox has so much priority and because it lasts so long. Shield Grabing will not always work here if its placed correctly. Other attacks you can shield grab just fine, but be careful of this one. I'm not sure yet what to counter it with (maybe Up+B out of shield?).
Do not, under any circumstance, forget about the Thunderstorm. It will slaughter Jigglypuff, but there is a catch: due to her mobility, you will have to learn to DI it properly. A running Thunderstorm or just one with proper movement will give you an edge here.
Additionally, because Jigglypuff will try some wall of pain, remember that your D-air has a huge hitbox. it encompasses most of Ganon's body, which is handy in case a Jiggly tries to meet you in the air. You can get a easy kill with it, and it will scare off the Jiggs from getting to close for a WoP (Ganoncide is not always effective against tis edge guard, she is too mobile and her hitboxes seem to stick around a bit.).
Try to keep your Flame Choke combos/set ups going as long as you can, you don't need much damage to kill Jiggs and the little you can squeeze from here is much easier to get than trying to catch her floating about the stage.
Devil7
Smash Journeyman
when fighting mario and coming in from the side never use your side b recovery only the dark dive. This puts ganon at a sever disadvantage in terms of recovery distance. However since marios throws and smash are easy to DI you can use ganons murder fist recovery. Another problem is that marios fludd can also gimp your up B since ganon is a very tall and easy to hit target. In the air watch out for marios up B as it has the same priority as your dair and executes very quickly. You ftilt and thunderstorming are your best options for a kill. Also throw in his dsmash for a little mix up. most a ganons moves have longer ranges than marios but they can be screwed up by his canceled fireballs followed up by his rar bair. For air game use his uair as it has good range and priority compared to most of mario's air game. The flame choke tech chase is also a good option but punishable because of the cape.
Dragmire
Smash Lord
good I think I'll fill in whatever else could be put in
mario has speed and enough power to stop ganondorf easy so what do we do? marios arial game is his best so try to ground game him if you can elbow and Usmash spam is an very helpful. his grabs and cape are his greatest tools (as well as Bair spam) so how to counter them?
Bair requires jumping and the outrageous range of the Usmash can counter and set up for some sickly Fair combos. also after Usmash try to set up for Uair **** because mario can't take hits well.
the cape the eternal bane to he B forward in the air or on the ground so If possible know your enemy marios caping times and b forward mindgame the other way (don't try too often off cliffs!!)
and of course the grabs, well this is the moment for the ganon cannon to shine if timed properly try to SS Fsmash and you should outreach him easy. also B forward every now and again can help to beat him down with Dtilts or Flame spam combos
hope this helped
mario has speed and enough power to stop ganondorf easy so what do we do? marios arial game is his best so try to ground game him if you can elbow and Usmash spam is an very helpful. his grabs and cape are his greatest tools (as well as Bair spam) so how to counter them?
Bair requires jumping and the outrageous range of the Usmash can counter and set up for some sickly Fair combos. also after Usmash try to set up for Uair **** because mario can't take hits well.
the cape the eternal bane to he B forward in the air or on the ground so If possible know your enemy marios caping times and b forward mindgame the other way (don't try too often off cliffs!!)
and of course the grabs, well this is the moment for the ganon cannon to shine if timed properly try to SS Fsmash and you should outreach him easy. also B forward every now and again can help to beat him down with Dtilts or Flame spam combos
hope this helped
Hello, long time lurker, second time poster. (Had an account here a long time ago, actually) I've been following this topic and board for a bit, and I have some input about Ice Climbers. It's not a full look, and might not be accurate, but it's what I think.
Personally, I think that I.C.s are a very bad matchup for Ganon. I hate hate hate hate hate them. Because there's two of them, it shuts down Ganon's main option of Flame Choke,(The other IC can attack, or Nana can act as the punchbag... chokebag.) and prevents Ganoncide from being effective (He can catch Nana and suicide with her instead. Sucks for me because I love Ganoncides.). Ice shots are also a pain to deal with when spammed, and don't ask about chaingrab. Thunder Drop spike has some effectiveness when they get off the edge and are under you, though, so the fight can still be won. But still with all this, I think 2/8 instead of the 3/7 written, imo.
In my advice, I'd just recommend for players to go for Popo regardless of what happens, desync, whatever. You'd want the match to be over ASAP, and if Popo dies, the other dies as well and stock is lost.
If anyone has some more info about this, I'd like to hear it.
Personally, I think that I.C.s are a very bad matchup for Ganon. I hate hate hate hate hate them. Because there's two of them, it shuts down Ganon's main option of Flame Choke,(The other IC can attack, or Nana can act as the punchbag... chokebag.) and prevents Ganoncide from being effective (He can catch Nana and suicide with her instead. Sucks for me because I love Ganoncides.). Ice shots are also a pain to deal with when spammed, and don't ask about chaingrab. Thunder Drop spike has some effectiveness when they get off the edge and are under you, though, so the fight can still be won. But still with all this, I think 2/8 instead of the 3/7 written, imo.
In my advice, I'd just recommend for players to go for Popo regardless of what happens, desync, whatever. You'd want the match to be over ASAP, and if Popo dies, the other dies as well and stock is lost.
If anyone has some more info about this, I'd like to hear it.
I know there's super armour when they're grabbed, but I have been punished after the attack before.
Dragmire
Smash Lord
best advice for Ganon VS IC's never fight them 
but nice guide
but nice guide
:034:
Smash Hero
It just sort of mystifies me how you can NOT be predictable off the stage. You just have four options: a double jump, an up-b, forward-b and airdodge. They all go in a certain direction and are therefore fairly easy to punish (except for up-b, I guess). That, and R.O.B. has that handy up-b in which R.O.B. can attack in between (note: fair).
Point. But you forget R.O.B.'s amazing sidestep -> downsmash.
It's easy to spike him, if you can get to him. R.O.B. can just use bairs and up-b to go underneath the stage and to the other side pretty easily.
My Wario information hasn't been added to the main page. I'm not sure if it was forgotten or not credible; I just figured I'd say it.