"How do I beat ___?", the Ganondorf Match-Up Thread

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It's pretty simple, everybody give us your own input on how to beat certain characters. What characters do we absolutely wreck? Can we defeat King Dedede? What stage works best against Diddy? Is Olimar the best Ganondorf counter ever? Tell us right here and now.

As of now, this thread is incomplete. ): Please, everyone, give us your input and tell us what you think. Anything might help. Just discuss it with us, we're not gonna flame you (we'll just flame choke you ;D)!

If names are shown in bold, it means the info is pretty much complete, and only little things will be added in the future.


Bowser

Bowser's heavy, strong and really big. Bowser is one of the characters who can consistantly get kills around 100%. First off, Bowser is faster and often has more range. However, he is bigger and heavier, meaning it's easy to juggle him. This also means that he is a bigger edgeguard target. His Up+B isn't very good either, so getting him off the stage and reverse uairing should work.

Bowser's specials are pretty abusable. Fire Breath (B) is bad news for Ganondorf since it's basically a small projectile. SDI away from him and regroup. Bowser's fB suicides, just like ours. However, Bowser's is a lot less reliable: you can counter-DI and make sure you don't suicide, and if you do you can make him die first. Be sure to not get caught on your last stock: he will win or bring you to sudden death. It has little reach, so you should have no problem avoiding it. However, it does lead to one of Bowser's important techniques: the infinite jump. Bowser can jump infinitely above the ground if he uses fB before he lands and cancelling it with a jump. A good Bowser will be able to use this effectively against us slow Ganondorf's.

Murder Choke is the ultimate weapon against Bowser: he's easy to catch and since you can hit him with virtually anything out of it or hit him with virtually anything whenever he rolls, a kill should be a bit easier to get. Shield his attacks and punish with Murder Choke whenever you have the chance.

Difficulty: 7-3


Captain Falcon

Falcon is an even match-up... Perhaps! A good Falcon is fast enough to run circles around you, uair you off the stage, knee you and I don't know what. One thing is for sure: he has little to no kill moves. And we're stock full of them - use this fact! Ftilt, fsmash, uair, dair, fair, bair, usmash, dash attack - they're all easy kill moves, and combined with Falcon's low recovery ability, you should be able to kill him relatively easy.

Falcon relies on his high speed - don't get caught into his games. Play defensive and react accordingly. Kill him when he can't kill you.

Difficulty: 5-5


Diddy Kong

Diddy Kong is no easy match up. He is VERY fast with attacking, his dash attack can lead into almost anything and he has various natural combo's. Peanuts and bananas can make an almost impenetrable fortress, making it hard to approach. He is a small target, has an up+b that attacks you when you hit it and he's a pretty good edgeguarder with fair and bair.

The way to go is to use the stage to your advantage. Picking a stage with platforms or varying levels, you can get around his bananas and peanuts. Dash attack breaks through the peanuts, so use this as an approaching tool, especially since Murder Kick won't work. Picking Final Destination means instant match loss, so don't do it. Go for Luigi's Mansion, Battlefield or anything with an abusable and steady platform.

An advice is to get more skilled at mid-air item grabbing. Airdodging or doing an aerial can do this. If you're up close and Diddy will use the bananas, catch them before he can have them. That way, the bananas will harm him, not you. Remember you can Glide Toss by rolling and using the c-stick during the roll to slide in the direction you threw.

Diddy doesn't have a solid killing game on the ground, he will usually rely on edgeguarding. He has a spike and two mighty fine edgeguard tools, and a very handy up+b. If you do your best to stay on the stage, you have an advantage in higher percentages. It takes a lot less for him to kill you than for you to kill him.

Be aware of his double banana combo's: they're very dangerous, especially against us, being such a big target. Mind your surroundings at all times. It's a difficult battle, for sure.

Difficulty: 7-3

Good Stage:
Luigi's Mansion: it has three floors and it stops his peanuts. His aerial game is limited, but remember that his ground game is still good. However, he'll have a harder time KO'ing you.

Battlefield: It has three abusable platforms, so use this to your advantage.

Bad Stage:
Final Destination: It gimps your recovery a bit, so watch out. Shouldn't be too big of an issue though. The banana's and peanuts are killers here, he can easily get you from anywhere on the stage.


Donkey Kong

Donkey Kong is better than you are. Yes. Donkey Kong isn't as strong as Ganondorf, but he is a lot faster in comparison. His range is immense, as well. He's still heavy and a big target, so still vulnerable to edgeguarding and Murder Choke combo's. However, a smart DK will just avoid and use his fast, high-range attacks to his advantage. Ftilt, dtilt, bair, nair, uair, cargo, they all work on Ganondorf.

I honestly don't play much against good DK's. More information on him would be appreciated.


Falco

Falco can chaingrab, has a Short hop double laser, can spike really easily, has good range, high speed, good recovery... I only have one advice in playing against Falco.

Pick a different character.

Okay, seriously, I can't give you a lot of advice. Reverse uairs as an edgeguard is all I can give you, since Falco has a less than average up+b. The only time Falco is relatively vulnerable and predictable is on recovery, so use this to your advantage. Don't get spiked when he uses fB, though. Pick a stage with platforms to help with laser abuse.

Difficulty: 9-1


Fox

Fox is not as difficult as he may seem. He's not as fast as in Melee, his range is nerfed and his lasers don't do as much damage nor do they reach as far. However, he still has a lot of high-speed, dangerous attacks, including upsmash, fsmash, dair and bair. Upsmash can be done out of a run with Hyphen Smashing, but this can be avoided fairly easily.

Fox is fast. First things first, Ganondorf can't compare to Fox's speed. However, he can easily be followed and actually doesn't have as many options as you would think. If you stay out of his lasers range, he'll have to come to you, at which point you can counter. I prefer using Distant Planet - you can stay on the slope, underneath the main platform. If you are below Fox, you have the advantage - your upsmash and uair are powerful enough to outprioritize Fox's attacks.

Be aware of dair to uptilt combo's, as they rack heavy damage. There's a small time period where your opponent has lag, so counter by shielding.

Fox is fairly light, and therefore fairly easy to kill. However, he's not as light as you would expect, and also fairly hard to edgeguard due to being small and having a changeable recovery (up+b). On stage, he can kill you fairly easily with powerful and fast smashes.

Difficulty: 6-4


GAME & WATCH:


Ice Climbers

Pick a different character. I mean it. Pick somebody else. Once you get grabbed by the IC, it's an immediate stock loss. And getting grabbed by them is pretty easy.

Difficulty: Infinity.


Ike

Ike is pretty difficult. He's basically you, except he's stronger, faster if played well, has tons of range and disjointed hitboxes. There's one thing that works against Ike, and that is playing defensively. Be aware of his jab-jab-grab and lagless nair as they combo fluently into each other.

Murder Choke is pretty effective against Ike: his get-up attack is easy to punish with dair and you can do a jab/dtilt/ftilt follow-up. Capitalize on his bad recovery with reverse uairs, but be sure not to get caught in Aether, you'll get spiked.

There's not much to say - just stay on your toes, be defensive and punish him for his slow attacks. Remember that Ike is pretty **** slow and you have an assortment of fast, far-moving attacks.

Difficulty: 7-3


Jigglypuff

Jiggly is good on the ground, and good in the air, but has one serious flaw: she is a horizontal character! All of her good attacks (rollout, pound, Short hopped double aerials, dash attack) are all horizontal, and can be beat by gaining a tad of altitude. Still though doing 2 jumps and your up B wouldnt be a smart thing, but when she comes at you, alot of her attacks can be punish by simply jumping and doing a wizards foot mid-air. Your attacks are strong enough that you shouldnt have a problem KOing her, but there are some things to know. When she uses roll out from the ground, jump, don't dodge. A fully charged rollout has 3 directional changes, and I never fail to catch a guy with 1 of them when I use it. From the air, dodge the first pass, then jump, since it would be hard to jump over the first pass, but she could get past your dodge with the other 2 passes. And lastly, don't try to shieldgrab too much, Jiggly wrecks shields.

King DeDeDe

Dedede is ****ing insane. He has the chaingrab, a good edgeguarding game, high strength and priority, a disjoint, fast yet powerful attacks, a weird projectile and one of the best recoveries in the game. This match-up is hard, really hard, but not impossible.

First of all, Waddle Dee's are jab-food. Dedede will have to get close to you to get a hit, making him a bit more predictable. If he grabs you, it's over, so if you just shield and hope it'll be alright... You'll die. You'll have to learn powershielding for this match-up, since normal shielding will just move you away from his range.

The trick to it is picking a good stage against his chaingrabbing to edgeguarding madness. One that I can think of right now would be Pirate Ship. The water will help you, since Dedede doesn't have a spike and you do. The slopes will give you trouble with Thunderstorming, though. If you pick a stage with a wall, it's instant death. He'll infinitely chaingrab you against the wall until you're easy pickings. Walk-off stages are also a bad idea, except for Yoshi's Island (Melee) and Distant Planet. I don't think Dedede can chaingrab you up to high slopes like that.

Murder Choke rocks. D3 is easily techchased and a big target so follow-up attacks are easy. Jab, dtilt and ftilt are all garantueed from a Choke. You can also attack him when he gets up with stutterstepped fsmash or sh fair, I believe. To get the Choke off, avoid attacks by dashing away then pivotting the Choke. Just go left and then side+b to the right. This can only be done out of your initial dash, but it works.

Difficulty: 8-2

Clever counterpicking is the way to go, use a stage that counters the chaingrabbing-edgeguarding combination. This match-up is hard, but not impossible.

Good Stages:

Pirate Ship. It gives you the usage of two spikes and limits the usage of chaingrabbing-edgeguarding combination.

I have a feeling that Pokémon Stadium 2 might help. Flying will give Dedede an advantage, but it will still mess things up a bit. I think Ice will make the chaingrab less abusable, same with Electric. However, Ground has a wall and a camping spot. Any comments on this?

Bad Stages:

Any of the following:

- Bridge of Eldin
- Shadow Moses Island
- Delfino Plaza
- Final Destination
- Castle Siege
- Mushroomy Kingdom
- Green Hill Zone
- Luigi's Mansion
- Flat Zone 2
- Pokémon Stadium
- Onett
- Green Greens
- Corneria

You will get chaingrabbed off the stage or simply to infinity and then killed.


Kirby

Kirby has a bit of a problem on range, but he has fast combo moves, such as fthrow to uair, dthrow to utilt combo's and what not. He has a ranged attack with Final Cutter, but learning how to powershield helps.

Dtilt is the best option against Kirby since it hits. Jab doesn't always hit (wtf). Kirby is a light character, so anything you throw at him will be sufficient to kill him. Whenever you get the chance - spike him out of Final Cutter. It's pretty easy to do.

One thing you should have in mind: Kirbycide is dangerous. Therefore, edgeguarding in itself is dangerous. Try to go for on-stage kills, rather than edgeguarding. Only when Kirby is close to the edge you can whip out a bair/dair/fair, make sure you don't get caught. Don't be predictable.

Overall, Kirby isn't easy. There are much harder match-ups, though.

Difficulty: 6-4


Link

When approaching Link, keep in mind range. Stay just outside of his clawshot and UpB, but within range of a Flame Choke. This is a danger zone for him, because you can dash, wizard foot, or flame choke before he can react. A good link player will use his bombs efficiently. Don't try to sidestep them. The blast from the bombs is too large to risk, and you'll end up spot dodging and still getting hit because they are slow anyway. What I do is shield it so it bounces off it. Typically, a Link will see this and try to get another item off because they feel they are safe. Leap over and fast fall a punch, or wait for the bomb to fall to reset. Just side step his gale boomerang when he throws it out and when it returns (you dont want to be pulled into an UpB) and shield his arrows. Ganon's shield is beastly and can take a lot. If a Link player short hops back while pulling out a bomb, if you are at medium range you're almost always guarenteed a wizard foot.

Stay on the ground, Link's air game is a bit better then yours, and your ground game is a lot better then his. Play defensively, let him pull bombs out for openings, and when his galeforce comes back puinish him during his catch animation. Be patient and wait for these openings, but dont stand too far away so he cant spam items. Most link players wont bother using there clawshot to grab you because Ganon can punish hard for slip ups. So instead, a Link player will spot dodge constantly. Time your nuetral A or spartan forward tilt to catch him in between spot dodges. Also because of this, you will find that you can get your forward smash off more often as well because of its lagged hit. If Link gets inside you, dont try to t-storm. His up tilt and forward tilt will get you. Instead roll away and maintain medium range. If he floats a down air towards you, shield once, then roll away. Dont sidestep these as he is moving too slow and will stab while inside you.

The whole mind game is making him feeling like he needs to attack.

Lucario

This is by far the hardest matchup with Ganondorf that I've faced so far. Lucario has an easily spammable projectile, great edge guarding, deceptive range with his ground, good priority, excellent aerials, many excellent throws, and recovery good enough to allow him to chase you off the edge of the screen and air combo you if necessary. To top it all off, when you do get hits off and get decent damage, it makes many of his attacks that much more powerful. A high percent Lucario can kill you just as easily as you can kill him. If played well he's also very good at spacing and punishing mistakes so one whiff can severely damage you.

With that said there do seem to be SOME weaknesses. First, most of his smashes have some initial and ending lag that can be exploited if they do not hit. This is where flame choke, wizards foot, or dash will work to hit (or thunder punch/sparta kick if close enough). Unfortunately, he cannot be thunder bunched after the choke, and so far in my experience even a dtilt has a relatively low chance of hitting. Tech chasing is the only option.

If possible try to feint or toss out some good mind games to draw out his attack. On the ground Lucario can easily be punished for this, and if you are on the ground a well timed up smash can go a long way. Against his air if you can get higher than he can a well timed dair can throw off his rhythm (not guaranteed though), even if you take a hit in the process. Usually in my experience I've found that I can recover more quickly and try to resume the pressure by mixing up between SH Thunderstorming and ground attacks. If you must meet him in the air if possible try to get above him rather than below. IMO you can at least exchange hits in the air, where below him he can spam his dair at will and it WILL outprioritize most of your aerials.

As far as other approaches go, again, I stay on the ground and play more defensive by trying to close the distance to draw out a dash, smash or aerial. Staying too far leaves you open to projectile spam, while rushing in to get close right away will most likely get you smashed or grabbed.

About Lucario's edge guarding, if he jumps out and gives chase basically try to ganoncide him. At least you can take him with ya because Lucario can otherwise keep you at bay long enough for you to not be able to recover. Not sure about the projectile charge guarding yet though cause I haven't played against it enough, any info on that?

Basically so far I have found the key is to be better at mind games than Lucario is and try to punish him if he makes a mistake. This is VERY hard to do however, as Lucario has many more tools than Ganondorf to do this. It's too early to conclude that Lucario is a Ganondorf counter but it is Ganondorf has many disadvantages against him.

I finally have something to add to this topic, but it's regarding Lucario, not Falco.

When Magus-Cie said to play aggresively, that didn't make much sense...until just today when I had a bunch of Lucario matches with 2 different people. I now understand how an aggressive Ganondorf can work!

Firstly and foremost, defensive Ganondorf does NOT work that well against Lucario. Lucario simply beats out defensive Ganondorf with priority and superior spacing. It's kind of tough to explain, but the more you try to space yourself against Lucario, the more chances he gets to surprise you with his own spacing, range, and priority. His projectiles will pressure you if you're not close enough, if he gets you in the air, you're more likely to get beat up badly by retreating, and the delay on his smashes make rolling around Lucario pretty difficult. If you shield, more often than not Lucario won't be close enough to punish him out of your shield, and if you are close enough, Lucario likes to use Side B to push you away or grab you. So with all of this, how in the world does getting aggressive improve your chances?

Lucario users I played like their space. They sometimes approach you directly, but mainly they roll around, try and get behind you. When this happens, roll with them, as if you're trying to get behind them (better if you remain just a bit behind Lucario). Odds are they'll roll again because Lucario can't easy punish rolling away, so they need to get in position. But now you got them. If Lucario's still a bit in front of you, D-Smash or Thunderstomp 'em. If he's behind you, Thunderstomp or Flame Choke, then follow up with the appropiate move. Just make sure to not let Lucario get into a favorable position.

If Lucario does get away, he's gonna start charging Auraspheres. Do not fear this, but close the distance. If he throws anl Aurasphere to stop your pursuit, throw out a Dash A to snuff it while continuing to close the distance. This pressures Lucario into throwing out one of his smash attacks. It's predictable at this point that you can shield and continue putting pressure on him. He wants to get away or get you away, but closing the distance forces him to either get very defensive or offensive which can work to your advantage.

Oh, and this doesn't just apply to small Auraspheres (as I initially assumed). From 0%-116%, Dash A can snuff fully charged Auraspheres too! At 117% though it'll outprioritize Dashes. F-Smash can snuff them for longer, but by then you should be killing Lucario. Shielding is obviously a less risky option, but this tactic is a bit of a mindgame against Lucario. Also, if Lucario would be close enough to grab you out of your shield, Dash hitting Aurasphere removes that option. Once he starts seeing Ganondorf devouring his projectiles, he'll resort to either throwing them at you while you're in the air (air dodge 'em) or throwing 'em while closer - a rather predictable strategy honestly. While you want to get aggressive, you won't be totally dropping your defense, so keep on guard for a close-ranged Aurasphere. If you're close enough, and you predict Aurasphere, try Dash attacking once more to interrupt it!

Lucario's only other option then is closing the distance. In this manner it really is up to how the opponent plays, but once Lucario gets offensive, it's not too hard to switch back up to a more defensive style. Just continue putting pressure on him to be offensive, which in turn actually weakens his spacing game just a bit. I will warn though against two particular moves Lucario has. First is Double Team. If Lucario starts using this, it's gonna make it a bit harder to get aggressive. Fortunately it's easily punished if whiffed. The other move is Lucario's UTilt. It's a nasty little move that can catch close enough opponents, combo, and get you in the air where you usually don't want to be.

A small tip regarding air combat. If Lucario has you in the air, your two options are to retreat and to Wizard Foot. Retreating depends on the distance between you and Lucario, but if he's close enough, he'll catch up to you and beat you up, meaning you have to Wizard Foot through him. You'll most likely trade hits, but it gets both of you back to the ground. Well...sometimes only you return to the ground, but that's okay. Lucario will bolster himself with DAirs, so just get close enough to punish him as he's about to land.

Finally, DO edgeguard Lucario! Do what you can to knock Lucario off the ledge, then gimp his recovery. He has his dangerous aerials, but even one good UAir spike can make the difference. Key though is to get him to use Extremespeed to grab the ledge. The move is easy to see coming, and it's not an attack, so it's your best bet for KOing him.If he's high enough, he'll more likely aim for the stage floor. Concentrate on grabbing the ledge, but watch him. If you believe he has enough height to bypass the ledge, get back on stage and punish his move lag!

So in summary....

> If Lucario likes to roll behind you, train him to roll often so he's opened to D-Smash, Thunderstomps, or even Flame Choke
> Dash A devours Auraspheres until Lucario reaches 117%. Dash through 'em, close the distance, and force his hand. React appropiately to his reaction afterwards
> Once Lucario gets directly offensive, being defensive will let you keep up with him. Just watch out for Double Team or U-tilt
> If in the air, retreat if far enough, but otherwise use Wizard Foot to get back to the ground
> Edgeguard!! Get Lucario off the edge, keep him low, then ledgehog and gimp his recovery. Punish him if he aims for the stage itself

As SporcsAndHumans put it, you gotta have the better mindgames here. Fortunately it isn't as hard (with at least certain Lucario players) for Ganondorf as I originally thought. Though Lucarios vary in playstyle, they generally want to space themselves with rolls or lesser attacks so they can sweetspot their smash attacks, spam Auraspheres, and juggle with launchers or aerials. If you keep that in mind, you can quickly ascertain how your opponent plays their Lucario, then pressure them out of their strongpoints and make them resort to tactics they're not as good at. Do that, and Ganondorf will eventually overpower them.

Oh...and do NOT let Lucario live to high percentages. There's no major strategy to this. Ganondorf can kill Lucario at at least 100%, so do so to prevent Lucario from getting too powerful.

Lucas

Another tough matchup for GDorf. Approaching from the air is a very bad idea. Lucas's up smash annihilates everything, has the best priority I have seen for smashes, and it has been confirmed that he has super armor during it. But if you catch him mid-air, he is yours.
On the ground, prepare to dodge. With 3 projectile attacks, you are going to have to be on your toes. If you keep it close you won't have any problems due to the lag time on all of his projectiles. Just use your faster attacks (jab, FTilt, Side B, grabs, thunderstorming) to set up for your smash attacks. He is lightweight, but you will need to knock him all the way out, as his recover it pretty good.

Luigi

Luigi isn't a hard match-up. In fact, it's pretty even.

Luigi has uptilt damage racking, don't get caught in it. He can jab-jab-uB for easy kills. He can fsmash for easy kills. His hitboxes on some of his moves are down right ridiculous. But that's it, really.

First of all: Luigi has good kill moves, but not plenty. Most of his attacks (and thus, including his kill moves) don't have a lot of range. There are exceptions to this rule, such as his bull**** fair which can be Ken Combo'd, but you should normally be able to punch through the most of his attacks.

Second: There's no real danger in edgeguarding Luigi. So, do it! Spike him if it's the last thing you'll do! In any case, killing Luigi is relatively easy.

However, on top all of this stands one thing: Luigi is a combo machine. He poops out combo's like he poops out spaghetti. And with our weight and size, they all work and are all fairly easy to use. He has a projectile, but not an abuse-able one. Jabs get rid of them. I believe his dB approach can be countered by dair, but I'm not sure. His dB approach is pretty good, since it's fast, it can move in any desired direction at any time and it does some damage.

Keep all of Luigi's strengths in mind when fighting him, but don't forget you can punch through most what he has to offer, and kill him fairly easily. Dash attack, jab, ftilt and dair are all staples against Luigi.

Difficulty: 5-5


Mario

An even match-up, perhaps a small advantage. You have the range and power and some decently fast attacks, but Mario has the projectile, the cape and faster attacks.

Mario from a distance will use fireballs in an attempt to move toward you and attack. The counter for this is to simply jab or powershield them and wait until he comes to you, then countering. However, don't think you are safe because you shielded one of his attacks. Mario is fast enough to pull off multiple aerial attacks in one short hop, such as bair to bair, bair to uair, bair to nair, etc. And if he lands while performing any of these attacks, he has no lag, so can easily follow up with downsmash or other attacks.

However, Ganon has more priority and range than Mario. I can imagine that you can hit a charging Mario, or you can barge through his fireballs with dash attack and hit him, leading to uairs. For a kill, go with Thunderstorming, ftilt and stutterstepped fsmash. Thunderstorming moves you out of the way of the high-speed downsmash, I believe, and it kills a DI'ing Mario around 100% on Final Destination.

Flame Choke is not as handy here. It's punishable because of the cape and there are not many options besides techchasing and dtilt. As a recovery, the cape will completly screw you over, so don't use it. Your up+b is more than enough.

Off the stage, be careful. I think his up+b goes through your dair but edgehogging can be fairly effective. Mario's recovery isn't his shining point, so edgeguarding isn't a bad thing. The other way around, Mario's cape screws over your forward B and FLUDD can gimp your up b. That and Mario has the ACE, using the cape to go over the edge and move forward without using a jump, making edgeguarding a bit easier for him.

Difficulty: 5-5


Marth

Marth has the high ground. In very basic terms, think Ike. Only much faster. Yeah. That's not a good thing.


Meta Knight

First of all, Metaknight being small and stature and having the slightly extended reach of the sword is rather difficult to get some grabs on. Shield grabbing is useless half the time, as proper spacing is rather easy given Ganondorfs grab range, and given the length of Metaknights sword. It's also difficult to block and grab his down smash. Watch out for his dash grab and attack as well. His dash grab is quick and has some intense slide on it, and blocking his dash attack will usually leave him behind you, most times unable to return a hit. I would suggest rolling behind Metaknight when he dashes at you, or beat him to the punch with a Wizards Foot or a Flame Choke.

His up smash is something you can take advantage of. It has a bit of lag on it, enough to get in a Flame Choke or spart kick if you block it.

His aerial game is pretty tough to beat. Forward and back airs aren't too handy here, neither is neutral A. You can get off a stomp when he's recovering, during his glide, and also short hop it with no lag to get another one in. He's pretty low to the ground, so unless he's doing some Up Smash/Tilt or the neutral A combo, you can get him with some Thunder Storm.

In the air I would suggest getting under him (not usually a problem, you can't jump too high anyway) and nailing him with some up air. It's got good range and speed and can usually hit him before he gets close enough in the air for some sword.

He doesn't have a super great kill game, and will mostly likely resort to some extreme edgeguarding for the finish. As was stated before, you can punish this rather easily with an aerial Flame Choke or a Dark Dive. If you're trying to just sweet spot the ledge with a Dark Dive, I would suggest waiting a bit until you're a bit below stage level, if you try to Dark Dive while at stage level or above, you'll probably end up eating a forward air.

And don't don't don't forget your up smash and stutter step. He's rather light, and you can finish him easily with either of these.

In essence:

DO'S:
Flame Choke combo/setup
Stutter Step
Up Air Underneath Him
Roll behind his Dash Attack/Grab
Punish the Edge Guard with Flame Choke

DON'TS
Go for some standard grabs
Try for a big air game
Try to shield grab his ground attacks (including dash attack)

NESS


Peach

I just played a pretty good Peach (BO X7) and here are some things I noticed about this matchup.

For those of you who aren't aware, Ganondorf has a very noticeable blind spot diagonally up in front of him. This matchup can be annoyingly difficult largely because Peach is extremely good at literally hovering right in that blind zone and D-airing you to oblivion. Not to mention she has projectile spam. Not that her projectile spam is all that threatening, but it's annoying, and can equal a free hit for her if you whiff an attack against her. And of course beware the random whatever she pulls out.

To deal with this blind spot, a well timed Up-Smash CAN intercept Peach, but as I said, it needs to be very well timed. The F-air covers your blind spot completely in terms of range and priority, but the problem is it is very laggy when it hits the ground, so you MUST hit with this attack. U-airs and fullhopped rising N-airs can work too if spaced correctly if I recall. Last but not least, I'd try to keep an Up-angled F-smash handy.

The other thing is Peach's priority rivals yours, if it doesn't beat it. Expect to have some priority clashes here and there, so be ready to follow up (and unfortunately, her jab is better than yours. Seriously, and this among other things makes it fairly difficult to punish Peach from the shield). And her Dash attack can punish any of your attacks if you aren't careful.

Don't go above her. She can Up-smash or U-tilt your options to oblivion if you aren't careful.

I'd say this matchup is 65/35 in Peach's favor. It is possible to win it however because she has a ton of trouble KOing early, and you can KO really early if you can land the right attacks.

Pikachu

Pikachu is hard. He has damage racking attacks, good killing moves, the thunder, chaingrabs, QAC and he is a small target. You have a bit more range, but since Pikachu can crawl, some attacks might not work on him at all.

Any advice on Pikachu would be appreciated, since I don't have much.


Olimar

Forget about shield + grab or flame choke on the ground. Olimar has some of the best throws out there IMHO, and will be able to get you fairly easily with them. Close the distance getting hit as little by the Pikmin as possible, and just attack attack attack. Use your running attack and wizards foot, as this will nullify his attempted grabs and Pikmin throws. Other than that, just keep the pressure up, and unless you are going for the kill, keep him close and aerial, so ge cannot get more Pikmin.

PIT


POKÉMON TRAINER


R.O.B.

ROB is good. Like, really good. He has killing moves, a god tier recovery, he's fairly heavy, projectiles and can rack up damage fairly good.

Okay, down to business. Murder Choke works. Jab, dtilt and ftilt are all garantueed to work. Be sure to pivot it. ROB is a big target, so it's easy to hit him. His uncharged Gyro can be stopped easily, but his charged one can not. However, you can still pick it up after it's been shot, so use glide toss to your advantage. ROB can be edgeguarded, but it's not easy, since he can attack and move freely during his up b, including the ability to go under the stage and to the other edge (this works pretty well against Ganon because he's so slow).

ROB has a lot more work on the ground though. His sidestep to downsmash is too good, his attacks all have pretty good range and he can Wall of Pain fair to keep you off the stage. His aerial game is much better, his nair kills and bair has high range. On the ground, he can abuse glide toss to slide into his powerful attacks. Dash attack is relatively fast and abusable.

R.O.B. isn't light either, so it'll take some trouble hitting him off the stage. If you can get a dair on him when he's coming back, do it. He can't airdodge during his up b, so abuse this factor.

Difficulty: 7-3

Good stage:

This is all hypothetical, but wouldn't Distant Planet work? The slope can situation R.O.B. above you without danger, since he can't laser or Gyro through the main platform, but you can uair him. Hanging on the right side, dropping off then double jumping and uairing him (and up b back to the slope) might just work. The Bulborb and slope also counter the god-like recovery, since only the middle part can be used, making him a bit more predictable.


SAMUS


SHEIK


Snake

He is a tough one. Throughout my brawl career so far, Snake has been one of the most overused characters especially in competitive matches. He has good projectiles, super dash followed by Up-smash, and a kick *** box of doom.

Now, how to counter him. Use side-b (Flame-Choke) followed by any quick attacks because he is one of those characters that bounce off the floor right after you side-b him, but if you do the trick near the ledge, then extra points for you since he'll end up outside of the stage and then you can use d-air, f-air, or u-air on him. Thunder-storming is also a great technique against Snake, but use it only when he dosen't put his shield up because he can counter with a quick A combo or Tilt-A combo. I suggest that you stick with the air because snake has great ground attacks with both his physical and projectile moves, but dosen't have much choices for anti-air moves except for his U-Smash. Also don't forget that if he uses his up-b while outside of the stage, then send him down to his death with your d-air since you have great recovery skills.

Now what not to do. Don't allow Snake to away from you at a long distance because I guarantee that he will either spam projectiles or use him super-dash followed by U-Smash to punish you for letting him get away. Don't fall into his Side-A of death please, it is quite painful. Also don't try to flame-choke him or use wizard's foot when he is far away from you because his projectiles will stop you.

Remember, you are not a general that gets his/her *** kicked by Snake in every one of his games. You are the king of Hyrule.

Sonic

Bah, forget what I said. Sonic can be a major pain in the butt.

First of all - Sonic isn't as powerful as you. That's fact, no matter what his bair says. >_> But, off stage, he has the upper hand. Springs, fair, even homing attack - Ganon is easy pickings. Since all of our recovery methods are predictable, it's easy to get gimped.

Second - Sonic is fast. He has few laggy attacks, but of course - those won't get used. And, if there is a slight opening, Sonic can use the spring to get away, into a lagless dair. If he whiffs the dair, punish immediatly. That moves has a ton of lag, so take advantage of it. But really, he's fast. Even if Sonic is at the other end of the stage, he can punish you for jabbing.

Dodging is key. Some moves are actually punishable, such as fair (small window being unable to attack), homing attack (won't get used often) and a whiffed dair has plenty lag. Remember that you can attack from the side when a dair is used.

Honestly, I'm not completly sure yet on how to beat good Sonics. z_z I need to play Tenki again.

Difficulty: 7-3


TOON LINK


Wario

As an avid player of both Wario and Ganondorf, I think the matchup between the two actually goes in Wario's favor at least a fair deal, if not severely.

Wario moves at least twice as fast horizontally in mid-air as Ganondorf; that's completely exploitable by Wario. Ganon's greatly-spaced D-Tilt will do very little to Wario, since his approach revolves around his crazy aerial mobility. Wario will continue short-hop -> anything, just like he's always done.

Ganondorf's lack of mobility in general also greatly hinders him. Most of his options are stuffed by Bite. U-Air will be nice if you manage to get Wario above you, simply because it's one of the very few things you can do against him that will keep you safe.

Edgeguarding is also very skewed in Wario's favor; with a Jigglypuff-esque recovery, he can finish you quickly and return to the stage with ease, while a smart Wario should be able to outmaneuver Ganondorf and recover with little trouble.

As Ganondorf, I imagine you'd have to play very defensively; try stuffing Wario's shorthop pokes with short-hopped Back-Airs (not too often, though; he'll catch on and bait you with a SH air-dodge; Wario has the same aerial movement while air-dodging). If you're stuck in close with him, you should try Thunderstorming, as Wario doesn't have a straight-up counter to it. Be very wary of his F-Smash on the way up, however. If there's one thing you have on Wario, it's range. Spacing will be key. If he gets close enough to attack your shield with his D-Air, you need to move out. He'll run circles around you with that move alone. You also need to focus on getting quick, lagless moves off; Wario's too fast and lagless to fight otherwise.

In my mind, it's at least a 3-7; give or take one point on either side..

Wolf

Wolf is amazing. Blaster bites through anything, fsmash and downsmash kill and rack damage, and he has fast attacks. But, Wolf has some flaws, which are highly abusable.

Powershielding destroys Wolf. He still has lag on some of his attacks and dashing to powershield is actually pretty easy to do. However, even so, Wolf has a lot of tools at his disposal. Jabs are fast and ftilt and utilt should not be underestimated. He can use the sliding upsmash as well, but it's usefulness is not as high.

Edgeguarding is a useful tool for killing Wolf. Wolf's up b is simply not reliable, he can't DI after it, making it hard for him to grab the edge. Wolf is fairly easy spike pickings as well, since he's still fairly big. I recommend using reverse uairs and then enjoying seeing him plummet to his death.

Even after all this, Wolf is a force to be reckoned with. He beats you in speed, range, priority and he's smaller than you are. He also doesn't have much trouble killing you. Powershielding is a must for this match-up.

Difficulty: 7-3, possibly 8-2

AGH! Easily one of the worst match ups for GDorf, but there is some stuff you can do. Firstly, when you are falling, and you see he is charging an Up Smash for you, mindgames are the key. Use the delay on the aerial Wizard's Foot(split second delay where he hangs in the air), or your second jump to draw it out, then punish. If you play defensively, when Wolf approaches, use your shield as much as possible. His FSmash, NB, and Dash Attack will wreck you if you try and get priority over them. Attack when he is recovering from that horrible lag afterwards. If you are an offensive player, then approach from the air. Dont get above him mind you, but a jump into a Nair or Fair can get above those annoying attacks and still hit him. Above all else, stay on your toes. Wolf has you beat in speed, reach, range, and most of the time in priority, so you need to be at the top of your game to beat a wolf player of equal skill.

YOSHI


Zelda

Holy **** Dins Fire. How do you get passed it? Its really easy actually. Your Aerials, preferably Down-air, Back-Air, and Up-air are the best to approach with. If you time it right, it usually clinks. Wizards foot is a best for approaching though. Flame Choke is great to rack up damage (just like against all other characters. Down air is a great killing move 100%+

ZERO SUIT SAMUS



Please give us your input!

 

[2ndchance]

Reserved for when I have a good insight on ddd.
Soon to come.

Edit: I was recently playing Munks DDD. And the whole battle seemed to be ddd chaingrabbing off the edge, and edge gaurding me. So from what I could see stages like battlefeild and smashville are good cause you can drop from the ledge a ways down and come back with Up-B and if you distance is good the uppercut will go through the ledge and knock him far enough to get back up.
And lots dash attacks, it seems to stay long enough the hit a sidestep spamming ddd.
This may be common knowledge, but never be afraid if hes coming back with his up B to edgehog him, if he hits you he dies, if he stops he dies.
Side-B into Jab works here.

Alot More to come.

 

[:034:]

^ Don't get grabbed?

But yeah, I did Diddy a bit. Will need a bit more testing though.

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

CounterPick a different character...

 

[:034:]

Updated Kirby a bit.

 

[Phazon Warrior]

I think we should note which characters can be immediately hit by a Thunder Punch after a Flame Choke. There was a list somewhere on this forum. Off the top of my head, Bowser, King Dedede, Snake, Rob, Ike, Wolf, Metaknight, Charizard, and Samus.

Oh, and I would watch out for Falco's down throw. He can chain grab you up until approximately 60%. Of course, this applies to stages that a very flat, i.e Final Destination.

 

[Pururun]

I posted this in another thread a while ago. Wish I could organize it better when posting here.

A = Jab

DT = Down Tilt. It's safer to do a DT from a standing position(slightly tilted down control stick) rather than crouching, if you hold down on the control stick, there's a high chance that you won't connect the down tilt because you'll enter crouching frames longer than usual if you press A at the wrong moment after the flame choke.

Another thing about the standing down-tilt. It's sort of difficult to pull off on my third party GCcontroller. There's a small space between neutral and crouching that I can use to down tilt. The classic controller is a bit better.. but I can only pull this off consistently with the wii remote and nunchuck.

Away = Opponent DIs as soon as they start dropping and attempts to roll away from you.

In = Opponent DIs toward you and attempts to roll behind you.

| A(No DI) | A(Away) |A(In) | DT(No DI) | DT(Away) |DT(In) |
Mario X O X O O O
Luigi O O X O O O
Peach X X X O O O
Bowser O O O O X X
Donkey O O O O X X
Diddy O O O O O O
Yoshi O O O O O O
Wario O O X O O X
Link O O O O X X
Zelda X X X O O O
Sheik X O X O O O
Ganondorf X X X O X X
Toon Link X X X O O O
Samus O O O O X X
Zero Suit Samus X X X O O O
Pit O O O O O O
Ice Climbers N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A N/A(>_>)
R.O.B O O O O O O
Kirby O O O O O O
Meta Knight O O O O O O
King Dedede O O O O O O
Olimar O O O O O O
Fox X X X O O O
Falco X X X O X X
Wolf O O X O X X
Captain Falcon X X X O O O
Pikachu O X O O O O
Charizard O O O O O O
Squirtle X X X O O X
Ivysaur O O O O O O
Lucario X X X O X X
Jigglypuff O O O O O O
Marth X X X O X O
Ike O O O O O O
Ness X X X O O O
Lucas X X X O O O
Game & Watch O O O O O O
Snake O O O O X X
Sonic X X X O O O

You can get a guaranteed follow up on almost every character except:

Wolf - Can roll/DI behind you to avoid down tilt and jab

Marth - Can roll away to avoid down tilt. (If he stays for a get up attack, punish, if he doesn't... You know he's rolling away. :D)

Falco and Lucario - Can DI or roll either way.

Wario and Squirtle - Can DI behind you while falling from flame choke. (I guess you can turn around and d-tilt them though. :D)

 

[Magus-Cie]

Okay, here is a little wisdom I've gleaned off Wifi and friends:

Ike: He is slower than you are...You should be able to shield + grab or dodge most of his attacks. Stay on the ground though unless it is for a quick Wizard's Foot, because Aether and his up smash will annihilate you. Other than that, just use mindgames to draw out an attack, and punish it during the lag time. And another thing, his neutral b. I have not many people who really use it, but beware, it has a larger hitbox than it appears, has insane priority, and it seems like it might give him superarmor, though I might be wrong on that count.

Olimar: Forget about shield + grab or flame choke on the ground. Olimar has some of the best throws out there IMHO, and will be able to get you fairly easily with them. Close the distance getting hit as little by the Pikmin as possible, and just attack attack attack. Use your running attack and wizards foot, as this will nullify his attempted grabs and Pikmin throws. Other than that, just keep the pressure up, and unless you are going for the kill, keep him close and aerial, so ge cannot get more Pikmin.

R.O.B.: Okay, forget about edge-guarding. R.O.B. is just too good of an aerial character. Keep on the ground, dodge the projectiles, and as odd as it sounds, try and stay a little away from him when you can. ROB has the annoying trick where he can go directly from an air dodge to a down smash. Dont let him abuse it!


Ill add more as I can think of it

 

[Pyrostormer]

I've got alot of insight on Zelda.

Zelda: Holy **** Dins Fire. How do you get passed it? Its really easy actually. Your Aerials, preferably Down-air, Back-Air, and Up-air are the best to approach with. If you time it right, it usually clinks. Wizards foot is a best for approaching though. Flame Choke is great to rack up damage (just like against all other characters. Down air is a great killing move 100%+


I'll add more later on.

 

[Blackadder]

*subs*

Awesome thread, I'm sure we can all learn a lot here. ^^

 

[EvilGenki]

Yesssss, I've been waiting for a thread like this to open up. I am having the hardest time against Olimar; it seems like he shuts down everything I do easily. This seems like a really bad matchup for Ganondorf as far as I can tell.

First some things I've had some luck with. The dash attack and the wizard's foot do seem to beat out his forward smash sometimes, but it only during a certain point in the attack, seems to be in the latter half for the dash attack, so making use of the instant dash attack comes in handy often. Does anyone know if there is a corolation to the color of the pikmin used when the dash attack/wizard's foot successfully beats his forward smash? I think I've also beaten out his up smash at time with Dair and aerial wizard's foot.

When in close, he has a lot of things that'll beat you out with speed, his irritating U tilt comes to mind. I try to go for SH Dair occasionally in close since many of his ground moves are easily jumped over, but be wary that his up smash and up tilt will beat this attack cold most of the time.

The general advice I've read vs. Olimar is to get him in the air since he is susceptible to juggling. Fortunately, there's many attacks we have that can do just that, such as Dtilt and dash attack. Using Uair to keep him in the air is typically a good candidate, and trying to bait air dodges to land more punishing attacks will help lever the advantage once you have him airborne.

Approaching him on the ground is super hard due to his range, particularly his grab which has a lot of range and speed and seems to stay out for a while. He has answers for air approaches as well, although his moves seem to be geared specifically towards one or the other, i.e. his anti-airs besides up B don't have much horizontal coverage and his anti-ground approach moves (except that **** yellow pikmin) are easily hopped over. If he happens to have higher ground than you, i.e. on a slope approaching becomes a real nightmare, as his forward smashes now cannot be hopped over either. As Magus-Cie suggested, it seems obvious that you'll have to play aggressive and stay close, or else he'll out space you forever.

I need as much advice as possible for this matchup, so here are some questions to start off: Can I land a SH Fair if I anticipate his Fsmash or is his recovery too fast? What is the best edgeguarding option vs. Olimar when he is above or below the stage? And a more general question: is there a reliable way to kill off his pikmin? Thanks!

 

[Magus-Cie]

I need as much advice as possible for this matchup, so here are some questions to start off: Can I land a SH Fair if I anticipate his Fsmash or is his recovery too fast? What is the best edgeguarding option vs. Olimar when he is above or below the stage? And a more general question: is there a reliable way to kill off his pikmin? Thanks!

This is a universal trick I am getting the hand of with GDorf, but I think it will work against Olimar. It is simple, approach from above and wizard's foot. At first this seems stupid, but the thing about Wizard's Foot is that there is a split second delay that GDorf will just sit there floating during. This can be used to draw out attacks before hitting them. It is hard to pull off, but people will hate you for it.

I haven't tried it, but a short hopped Dair or Fair might work, but I dont know if he will clear the pikmin Olimar will throw out.

 

[Calixto]

I have some insight to offer on the Metaknight:

First of all, Metaknight being small of stature and having the slightly extended reach of the sword is rather difficult to get some grabs on. Shield grabbing is useless half the time, as proper spacing is rather easy given Ganondorfs grab range, and given the length of Metaknights sword. It's also difficult to block and grab his down smash. Watch out for his dash grab and dash attack as well. His dash grab is quick and has some intense slide on it, and blocking his dash attack will usually leave him behind you, most times unable to return a hit(I've tried doing a Flame Choke out of shield after him, but he recovers from the attack too quickly). I would suggest rolling behind Metaknight when he dashes at you, or beat him to the punch with a Wizards Foot, Flame Choke, or Thunderstorm.

His up smash is something you can take advantage of. It has a bit of lag on it, enough to get in a Flame Choke or spart kick if you block it.

His aerial game is pretty tough to beat. Forward and back airs aren't too handy here, neither is neutral A. You can get off a stomp when he's recovering, during his glide or just in general (despite his wings, MK is not so graceful in the air), and also short hop it with no lag to get another one in on the ground. He's pretty low to the ground, so unless he's doing some Up Smash/Tilt or the neutral A combo, you can get him with some Thunder Storm to Up Smash, depending on how fast the MK player is.


In the air I would suggest getting under him (not usually a problem, you can't jump too high anyway) and nailing him with some up air. It's got good range and speed and can usually hit him before he gets close enough in the air for some sword.


He doesn't have a super great kill game( his down smash and maybe his Up B are the only attacks that seem to have sufficient knock back to really give Ganondorf a push), and will mostly likely resort to some extreme edgeguarding for the finish. As was stated before, you can punish this rather easily with an aerial Flame Choke or a Dark Dive. If you're trying to just sweet spot the ledge with a Dark Dive, I would suggest waiting a bit until you're a bit below stage level, if you try to Dark Dive while at stage level or above, you'll probably end up eating an aerial hit to the face.


And don't don't don't forget your up smash and stutter step. He's rather light, and you can finish him easily with either of these. Sparta Kick is something else you have to keep in mind for the kill. Go for a kick early and at every opportunity. A Sparta Kick after the Flame Choke may work here, but don't quote me on that one.


In essence:

DO'S:
Flame Choke combo/setup
THUNDAHSTOHM
Up Air Underneath Him
Roll behind his Dash Attack/Grab
Punish the Edge Guard with Flame Choke
Punish Dashes and Rolls with Thunderstorm.


DON'TS
Go for some standard grabs
Try for a big air game
Try to shield grab his ground attacks (including dash attack)


EDIT: Cleaned post up a bit and added something to do's.

 

[DarkSpidey13]

sonic and wolf are kicking my ***. anyone having any better luck?

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

Hello, I would like to give an advice against Snake players.

Snake: He is a tough one. Throughout my brawl career so far, Snake has been one of the most overused characters especially in competitive matches. He has good projectiles, super dash followed by Up-smash, and a kick *** box of doom.

Now, how to counter him. Use side-b (Flame-Choke) followed by any quick attacks because he is one of those characters that bounce off the floor right after you side-b him, but if you do the trick near the ledge, then extra points for you since he'll end up outside of the stage and then you can use d-air, f-air, or u-air on him. Thunder-storming is also a great technique against Snake, but use it only when he dosen't put his shield up because he can counter with a quick A combo or Tilt-A combo. I suggest that you stick with the air because snake has great ground attacks with both his physical and projectile moves, but dosen't have much choices for anti-air moves except for his U-Smash. Also don't forget that if he uses his up-b while outside of the stage, then send him down to his death with your d-air since you have great recovery skills.

Now what not to do. Don't allow Snake to away from you at a long distance because I guarantee that he will either spam projectiles or use him super-dash followed by U-Smash to punish you for letting him get away. Don't fall into his Side-A of death please, it is quite painful. Also don't try to flame-choke him or use wizard's foot when he is far away from you because his projectiles will stop you.

Remember, you are not a general that gets his/her *** kicked by Snake in every one of his games. You are the king of Hyrule.

 

[tehSANDMAN]

^ Lol bizzaro you forgot, stomp>cypher. That seems like it's miniscule...but seriously...every time.

EDIT: No...you didn't. Lol read first then post, sorry. Watch abusing thunderstorming and becoming predictable with it though, especially out of shield. Snake's utilt has a surprising hitbox and snuffs the dair OoS approach. Just mix it up with jab and instant shockwave out of shield. Wizards foot will usually snuff nikitas unless dropped perfectly. Use aerial wizards foot if coming down on mortar spam.

 

[Magus-Cie]

A note on Snake: Remember where he placed his mines! Nothing ruins the good feeling of getting a KO running over his Down Smash and being KO'ed yourself.

BTW, what is Thunderstorming?

Okay, on with some more stuff.

Wolf: AGH! Easily one of the worst match ups for GDorf, but there is some stuff you can do. Firstly, when you are falling, and you see he is charging an Up Smash for you, mindgames are the key. Use the delay on the aerial Wizard's Foot(split second delay where he hangs in the air), or your second jump to draw it out, then punish. If you play defensively, when Wolf approaches, use your shield as much as possible. His FSmash, NB, and Dash Attack will wreck you if you try and get priority over them. Attack when he is recovering from that horrible lag afterwards. If you are an offensive player, then approach from the air. Dont get above him mind you, but a jump into a Nair or Fair can get above those annoying attacks and still hit him. Above all else, stay on your toes. Wolf has you beat in speed, reach, range, and most of the time in priority, so you need to be at the top of your game to beat a wolf player of equal skill.

Sonic: Honestly, while the speed can seem a little overwhelming at first, Sonic is actually pretty bad against Gannondorf. One of the lighter medium weights, so he is knocked out fairly easily. Sonic has you beat at the approach due to that insane speed, but if he stays close, you have him beat. Flame Choke, FTilt, and DSmash are all VERY effective. But if he does not stay close, or you want an easier time, draw Sonic into an air game. It seems like the only good aerials he has air his Fair and Dair. Sonic is vastly inferior in air, so if you can draw him into an air game, you can get him. Just use your aerials and your Aerial Wizard's Foot.

Donkey Kong: Again, a very slow character with much lag on his attacks. Flame Choke immediatly to a Spartan Kick is perfect here. Just dodge his attacks and punish. Beware of his grab though, as it has some nasty range, as do many of his attacks. Just remember, they hurt. Alot. Play carefully and you will be okay. But on the ground or in the air, you should have the upper hand due to the speed of your attacks.

More to come in the future

 

[:034:]

@Magus-Cie: Thunder Storming is using the lagless SH dair over and over and over.

Updated, thanks a bundle you guys. By the way, when names are shown in bold, it means the info is pretty much complete, and only little things will be added in the future.

 

[Calixto]

Query: Is it possible to pull an immediate Sparta Kick after Flame Choke on the characters that can be jabbed after Flame Choke? I haven't had the chance to test this out against human opponents lately.

 

[Tenki]

If anyone is familiar with the kirby/dedede trick to use their vacuum attack to make Ike's quickdraw (side-b) go through them and off the level...


...Ganondorf's up-tilt.

 

[:034:]

If anyone is familiar with the kirby/dedede trick to use their vacuum attack to make Ike's quickdraw (side-b) go through them and off the level...


...Ganondorf's up-tilt.

I'm not familiar with that trick.

Also, why would we use Ganondorf's uptilt? It's pretty crappy, only useful for edgeguarding and super novice players.

 

[Tenki]

The placement is one where Kirby/Dedede/Ganondorf is standing at/near the edge of a level and Ike is inside it, and they're facing each other, of course.

The original trick kinda went like this (using Kirby for an example):
-Kirby is standing at the edge, facing in the level, holding neutral B.
-Ike uses quickdraw.
-Quickdraw hits Kirby, knocking him upwards, but the vacuum effect continues to pull Ike during/after the hit.
-Ike slides through/under Kirby and off the stage --> die

Ganon's up-tilt has a vacuum effect, and it consequently, it can pull off the same result xD

I wouldn't suggest spamming up-tilt when you're standing by the edges, but it's a trick you can keep up your sleeve if you see an Ike trying to grand viper / spam side-b too liberally.

 

[Dastrn]

pick a different character?

gdorf is bad bad bad.

 

[Magus-Cie]

The placement is one where Kirby/Dedede/Ganondorf is standing at/near the edge of a level and Ike is inside it, and they're facing each other, of course.

The original trick kinda went like this (using Kirby for an example):
-Kirby is standing at the edge, facing in the level, holding neutral B.
-Ike uses quickdraw.
-Quickdraw hits Kirby, knocking him upwards, but the vacuum effect continues to pull Ike during/after the hit.
-Ike slides through/under Kirby and off the stage --> die

Ganon's up-tilt has a vacuum effect, and it consequently, it can pull off the same result xD

I wouldn't suggest spamming up-tilt when you're standing by the edges, but it's a trick you can keep up your sleeve if you see an Ike trying to grand viper / spam side-b too liberally.

I knew about that trick since I looked up some Kirby stuff to help a friend out. And I know there is some minor suction in the UTilt. Does it really work consistently? o.o

Also, does anyone have any suggestions for pulling off thunderstorming with a Wiimote + Nunchuck setup? I have been using that since Brawl came out, and I really cannot use the Gamecube controller anymore because I am too used to it :S

More info:

Jigglypuff: Jiggly is good on the ground, and good in the air, but has one serious flaw: she is a horizontal character! All of her good attacks (rollout, pound, Short hopped double aerials, dash attack) are all horizontal, and can be beat by gaining a tad of altitude. Still though doing 2 jumps and your up B wouldnt be a smart thing, but when she comes at you, alot of her attacks can be punish by simply jumping and doing a wizards foot mid-air. Your attacks are strong enough that you shouldnt have a problem KOing her, but there are some things to know. First of all, on Final Destination Don't let her get the smash ball!!! She has a nasty trick in which she can float underneath the stage, then use her final smash, and she gets big enough to cover the entire stage. This might be possible on other stages as well, but I do not know, I haven't tested it. Second, when she uses roll out from the ground, jump, don't dodge. A fully charged rollout has 3 directional changes, and I never fail to catch a guy with 1 of them when I use it. From the air, dodge the first pass, then jump, since it would be hard to jump over the first pass, but she could get past your dodge with the other 2 passes. And lastly, don't try to shieldgrab too much, Jiggly wrecks shields.

Lucas: Another tough matchup for GDorf. Approaching from the air is a very bad idea. Lucas's up smash annihilates everything, has the best priority I have seen for smashes, and it has been confirmed that he has super armor during it. But if you catch him mid-air, he is yours.
On the ground, prepare to dodge. With 3 projectile attacks, you are going to have to be on your toes. If you keep it close you won't have any problems due to the lag time on all of his projectiles. Just use your faster attacks (jab, FTilt, Side B, grabs, thunderstorming) to set up for your smash attacks. He is lightweight, but you will need to knock him all the way out, as his recover it pretty good.

 

[Pururun]

Also, does anyone have any suggestions for pulling off thunderstorming with a Wiimote + Nunchuck setup? I have been using that since Brawl came out, and I really cannot use the Gamecube controller anymore because I am too used to it :S

I just turn shake smashes off and set all the smashes to the remote D-pad. If you can get used to short hopping with the c button(I'm still training my left index finger. >_>) on the nunchuck, it works well. I'm also stuck on the wii remote and nunchuck setup because I've always screwed up the flame choke / d-tilt follow up on other controller types.

 

[Magus-Cie]

@Pururun: What do you use for grabs? ATM I have my D-Pad set up for grabbing, and nothing else, and that A+B scheme is just way to gimicky

 

[Pururun]

I use Z(Shield) and A. It works for running and grabbing too but sometimes I prefer A + B for that. It took a while to get used to though.

 

[Gleam]

(Bowser) Heavier, and perhaps stronger than Ganondorf (but not by a significant degree) Also has faster running speed. This is one of the easier matches imo, though it's never wise to look down on any character. Since Bowser is probably the largest character, almost every attack, no matter how small the hit box is, will hit Bowser.

Being such a big target also makes it great for using Ganondorf's aerials such as Uair, Bair and Nair. Dair is also good but in any case I'd save for the spike. Being a large character also means being easier to edgeguard against. If you can get Bowser off the edge, it'll be hard for him to get back on. His Up B has poor horizontal, and Average/Below average verticle recovery.

Bowser's B-forward is as everyone knows is able to suicide, but unlike Gaondorf's B-forward, Bowser's has very little reach, and doesn't give Bowser ability to really string in another attack since it sends the foe too high into the air.

Bowser's B neutral can be annoying, mainly because its a short projectile. Any projectile, no matter how short, is not good for Ganondorf. Shielding and waiting for an opening is good here. Once Bowser stops the flame, go for a Ftilt or Neutral A. Go for a B-forward and pull off a short combo if you can.

Be careful of Bowser's attack. Some of them have very good knockback, and some have speed that equals or is even greater than Ganondorfs. Most of the time however, most of Bowser's attacks will contain lag that you can easily go in for a hit. Bowser is also very heavy, so its not like he'll be going out at 60% or anything.
---

And if I may add something about battling Ike that may or may not help. Ike's Fsmash actually does less damage and knockback near the tip of his blade.

 

[Massiveguns]

if i might make a request it would be huge if we could get a movie of exactly what it looks like for ganon to VS every character especially the really campy ones like ROB and TL or samus. if people could just show a clip of how they see ganon winning this matchup i think it would do wonders for the community.... since i hate just asking for help though ill do my best to save a replay of every chracter VS my ganon and if i ever get my capture card ill be glad to post it here .... if that sounds like it would help of course

 

[SporcsAndHumans]

@Massiveguns: That would be very helpful

Just wanted to toss out a few things from my own limited experiences. Any help or additional information on any of this would of course be very much appreciated.

Lucario:

This is by far the hardest matchup with Ganondorf that I've faced so far. Lucario has an easily spammable projectile, great edge guarding, deceptive range with his ground, good priority, excellent aerials, many excellent throws, and recovery good enough to allow him to chase you off the edge of the screen and air combo you if necessary. To top it all off, when you do get hits off and get decent damage, it makes many of his attacks that much more powerful. A high percent Lucario can kill you just as easily as you can kill him. If played well he's also very good at spacing and punishing mistakes so one whiff can severely damage you.

With that said there do seem to be SOME weaknesses. First, most of his smashes have some initial and ending lag that can be exploited if they do not hit. This is where flame choke, wizards foot, or dash will work to hit (or thunder punch/sparta kick if close enough). Unfortunately, he cannot be thunder bunched after the choke, and so far in my experience even a dtilt has a relatively low chance of hitting. Tech chasing is the only option.

If possible try to feint or toss out some good mind games to draw out his attack. On the ground Lucario can easily be punished for this, and if you are on the ground a well timed up smash can go a long way. Against his air if you can get higher than he can a well timed dair can throw off his rhythm (not guaranteed though), even if you take a hit in the process. Usually in my experience I've found that I can recover more quickly and try to resume the pressure by mixing up between SH Thunderstorming and ground attacks. If you must meet him in the air if possible try to get above him rather than below. IMO you can at least exchange hits in the air, where below him he can spam his dair at will and it WILL outprioritize most of your aerials.

As far as other approaches go, again, I stay on the ground and play more defensive by trying to close the distance to draw out a dash, smash or aerial. Staying too far leaves you open to projectile spam, while rushing in to get close right away will most likely get you smashed or grabbed.

About Lucario's edge guarding, if he jumps out and gives chase basically try to ganoncide him. At least you can take him with ya because Lucario can otherwise keep you at bay long enough for you to not be able to recover. Not sure about the projectile charge guarding yet though cause I haven't played against it enough, any info on that?

Basically so far I have found the key is to be better at mind games than Lucario is and try to punish him if he makes a mistake. This is VERY hard to do however, as Lucario has many more tools than Ganondorf to do this. It's too early to conclude that Lucario is a Ganondorf counter but it is Ganondorf has many disadvantages against him.

Any thoughts?

 

[Magus-Cie]

You know....seeing as how I want Lucario to be my second character, I will look into this. I will hopefully have some info soon.

If anyone wants to help me out, do some practice matches playing as Lucario. As Ganondorf players, we know exactly what his weaknesses are, and how peeps should play against him. Maybe the same will prove true if we practice a lil' with Lucario. Go hivemind!

EDIT: Some information gleaned from the Lucario boards. Play aggressively, because if he forces you into a defensive game, it will be next to impossible to beat a Lucario player of equal skill.

 

[:034:]

EDIT: Some information gleaned from the Lucario boards. Play aggressively, because if he forces you into a defensive game, it will be next to impossible to beat a Lucario player of equal skill.

But Ganon is one of the most defensive characters in the game.. He's not made to just rush headlong into battle.

Actually, I'm not having a lot of trouble with Lucario because he's so weak at first. He becomes stronger later on, sure, but then you can knock him out with a nice upsmash. But then again, I have yet to play a good Lucario.

 

[Warrior_J]

VS LINK

I fight TheChene constantly with Ganondorf. Heres what i do.

When approaching Link, keep in mind range. Stay just outside of his clawshot and UpB, but within range of a Flame Choke. This is a danger zone for him, because you can dash, wizard foot, or flame choke before he can react. A good link player will use his bombs efficiently. Dont try to sidestep them. The blast from the bombs is too large to risk, and youll end up spot dodging and still getting hit because they are slow anyway. What i do is shield it so it bounces off it. Typically, a Link will see this and try to get another item off because they feel they are safe. Leap over and fast fall a punch, or wait for the bomb to fall to reset. Just side step his galeforce when he throws it out and when it returns (you dont want to be pulled into an UpB) and shield his arrows. Ganon's shield is beastly and can take a lot. If a Link player short hops back while pulling out a bomb, if you are at medium range your almost always guarenteed a wizard foot.

Stay on the ground, Link's air game is a bit better then yours, and your ground game is a lot better then his. Play defensively, let him pull bombs out for openings, and when his galeforce comes back puinish him during his catch animation. Be patient and wait for these openings, but dont stand too far away so he cant spam items. Most link players wont bother using there clawshot to grab you because Ganon can punish hard for slip ups. So instead, a Link player will spot dodge constantly. Time your nuetral A or spartan forward tilt to catch him in between spot dodges. Also because of this, you will find that you can get your forward smash off more often as well because of its lagged hit. If Link gets inside you, dont try to t-storm. His up tilt and forward tilt will get you. Instead roll away and maintain medium range. If he floats a down air towards you, shield once, then roll away. Dont sidestep these as he is moving too slow and will stab while inside you.

The whole mind game is making him feeling like he needs to attack.

 

[Gleam]

I've been testing Ganondorf against Yoshi for quite sometime now, and have basically made this chart.

R-Range
P-Priority
S-Speed (How fast is the attack executed)

EX. Ground Up A S-Yoshi (this means Yoshi beats Ganondorf at the Ground UP A, etc)




GROUND MOVES

A)

R-Ganondorf
P-Same
S-Yoshi

A down)

R-Ganondorf
P-Same
S-Same

A forward)

R-Yoshi
P-Same
S-Yoshi

A Up)

R-Ganondorf
P-Ganondorf ( I didn't really test this out, but because its so powerful, I assume it had better Priority. It really doesn't matter since only a twit would use this for actual attacking.
S-Yoshi

Rush A)

R-Ganondor
P-Same
S-Same


SMASH ATTACKS

Forward A)

R-Ganondorf
P-Same
S-Yoshi

Up A)

R-Ganondorf
P-Ganondorf (Admittedly I had a hard time trying to get the Priority here, so if someone could double check, that would be great
S-Yoshi

Down A)

R-Ganondorf
P-??? (I just couldn't get the priority down straight with this unfortunately)
S-Yoshi

AERIAL

A)

R-Ganondorf
P-Ganondorf
S-Yoshi

A Up)

R-Ganondorf
P-Ganondorf
S-Same

A down)

R-Ganondorf
P-Ganondorf
S-Ganndorf

A forward)

R-Ganondorf
P-Ganondorf (When testing this, though Ganon had better Knockback, the priority actually sent Ganondorf downwards at a good amount of speed. This may indicate that Yoshi's Aerial Forwad at the downwards headbutt part, or when prioritorized can spike. I couldn't really test it out)
S-Ganondorf


Back A)

R-Yoshi
P-Ganondorf
S-Same
---

YOSHI FACTS

Yoshi's shield comes out slower than Ganondorfs (Not sure how much help this will be)

Yoshi Can't jump while Shielding

Egg Throw (It can be anoying as hell, but since it has extremely little knockback, it only delays the innevitable. Get up to Yoshi, and if you see an Egg throw about to happen, go for the attack.

Yoshi's B forward (You can either roll or dodge. Go for a B-forward and Flame Choke him in mid attack.)

Yoshi's B down (Dodge, roll. It has some surprisingly strong knockback)

Yoshi's Grab has range, but lots of lag.

OVERALL

Ganondorf's Aerials outclass Yoshi in almost every way. Range, Attack Speed, Priority. It's almost sad. If you can get Yoshi into one of Ganon's aerials, you'll do well.

On the ground they're pretty much equal, so defintely utilize Ganondorf's longer range since Yoshi has faster Ground Attack speed. Ganondorf's great knockback will be great.

Almost all of Yoshi's special can either be countered or avoided, so I really don't see any problem here.

I also find that because of Yoshi's abnormally high second jump, it's not that easy to edgeguard him.


NOTES-I used the Gamecube controller, so if there's a significant different between that and another controller, tell me. Also, I didn't use any special techiques, so if there's a way that Yoshi can get more reach on his Fair or something, tell me, and I'll test it out.

 

[Foxy]

Just something to add, not sure if anyone's said it:

If you have your c-stick set to 'attack' instead of 'smash', you can do a standing d-tilt just by pressing down on the c-stick.

 

[Pururun]

Whoa, that's neat. I can finally use something else other than the remote/nunchuck configuration for the standing d-tilt. :D

Edit: Attack on c-stick causes some strange actions when you use it after dropping shield or during the flame choke. o_o Sometimes I end up short hopping instead of d-tilting. I wonder what's causing all the jumping.

 

[Magus-Cie]

But Ganon is one of the most defensive characters in the game.. He's not made to just rush headlong into battle.

Actually, I'm not having a lot of trouble with Lucario because he's so weak at first. He becomes stronger later on, sure, but then you can knock him out with a nice upsmash. But then again, I have yet to play a good Lucario.

I have only played one or two, but because he spams baby aura spheres, and he edge guards like mad, I realized after I lost the match that I should have charged him. I dunno though, just seems like there were no really good options

 

[Anomilus]

I often fight a good Falco player, but I have yet to win against him with Ganondorf. I've gotten close, but no win yet. I don't think I'm capable yet of giving any advice. I will say it isn't an easy match up at all. Lasers mess up Ganondorf, and up close it isn't too easy, especially against his reflector. There are ways around it, but not a lot. Falco can definitely edgeguard Ganondorf, but only when he's equal with or above the stage. If under the stage, Ganondorf can get away with Dark Diving to the ledge without too much trouble (Falco seems to be hesitant to risk going below the stage for a DAir spike). If not below the stage, Ganondorf gets to contend with DAir or BAirs if high enough. Flame Choke can scare Falco out of using DAir, but BAir can be pretty nasty in that it keeps Falco out of danger. I do think it could outprioritize the Flame Choke, but I'm not perfectly sure. Either way, if you don't grab with the Choke, good chance Falco will finish you off.

I don't have much to add for Ganondorf as I just need more time to play against Falco.

 

[:034:]

I have only played one or two, but because he spams baby aura spheres, and he edge guards like mad, I realized after I lost the match that I should have charged him. I dunno though, just seems like there were no really good options

In that case, isn't it kind of like R.O.B.? Just that R.O.B. is better at being projectile-based and Lucario has more range on his smashes, the two could be very simililar in how to deal with them.

I often fight a good Falco player, but I have yet to win against him with Ganondorf. I've gotten close, but no win yet. I don't think I'm capable yet of giving any advice. I will say it isn't an easy match up at all. Lasers mess up Ganondorf, and up close it isn't too easy, especially against his reflector. There are ways around it, but not a lot. Falco can definitely edgeguard Ganondorf, but only when he's equal with or above the stage. If under the stage, Ganondorf can get away with Dark Diving to the ledge without too much trouble (Falco seems to be hesitant to risk going below the stage for a DAir spike). If not below the stage, Ganondorf gets to contend with DAir or BAirs if high enough. Flame Choke can scare Falco out of using DAir, but BAir can be pretty nasty in that it keeps Falco out of danger. I do think it could outprioritize the Flame Choke, but I'm not perfectly sure. Either way, if you don't grab with the Choke, good chance Falco will finish you off.

I don't have much to add for Ganondorf as I just need more time to play against Falco.

If you fight against Falco, you're in a mean disadvantage. He can chaingrab you 0-80%, throwing you off the stage and spiking you. He has a much faster aerial game, his ground game is on par with Ganon's and he has the SHDL. Fighting a good Falco could be troublesome, but I haven't really played against one yet.

 

[Ulti]

Hello, I hav two questions regarding Ganon. First, on the chart on what Ganon can do after f-b, do the "x"s mean "possible attack?" Mario for example, do the X's mean I can jab him asap if he doesn't DI or DI's towards me, but otherwise I'm outta luck (gotta look for a re-grab?)

Also, this question isn't directly related to Ganon's match-ups, but what control scheme do you prefer for the GC controller, especially for the c-stick? C-stick set to "attack" makes stomp edge-guards super-easy and f-b --> d-tilt seems easier, but it seems Ganon focuses a lot more on his smashes than he did last game, and a guarenteed smash (no tripping, -_-) might be useful. What's the general consensus/more useful?

Thanks in advance!