How could Sakurai and his team NOT realized how glaring WFT's flaws are?

[ChivalRuse]

Anti making WFT look not so bad. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCpPq9rdmq8

 

[Thinkaman]

Ally making WFT look not so bad. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCpPq9rdmq8

Ally, Anti, basically the same.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Except one is black and the other latino (with hobo beard).

Gotta love both

 

[Lil Puddin]

To be honest it just sounds like people need to work on their fundamentals first instead of complaining about her.

This. She is essentially an awful Palutena smash wise and Jigglypuff tilt wise. So work with that.

For smashes you need good reads. And I mean READS SO GOOD THAT SHULK COULDN'T EVEN FORESEE IT. You can punish lazy rollers, but not active ones. The only saving grace is that the smash attacks are close range whiff-proof since WFT's entire hitbox is WFT's body.

WFT is designed with the assumption that Deep Breathing will always be used. When active, WFT's attacks actually make sense... Kinda.

WFT is saved by those really good special projectiles. Without either of them, she'd be garbaje tier without a doubt. What brings WFT down is that recovery. It isn't the fastest and it allows for easy spiking. So you are lame off stage as WFT, which only a few characters like Ike can say.

Nair is good.

No aerial has sex kick or antiair properties makes WFT easier to juggle than Zelda.

Fair is a hard to use mixed bag of pain, with WFT's back foot being the real hitbox and WFT's extended arm having some sad knockback given the range, angle, and delay. With DB it can KO forward, but... The effort doesn't match the reward.

Awful anti-ledge attacks but ok edge guarding.

Literally in the top 3 for worst grabs and pummels. With bad followups to match.


One does not play WFT unless they know WFT's flaws inside and out. It's depressing but necessary. WFT relies on reads, solid punishes, and plenty of special usage. WFT is not ezmode like Yoshi, Mario, Marth, Cap... I'll be here all day listing them. So let's just say playing WFT is like choosing to play hard mode no matter who you're facing. It's not impossible, it's just hard.


Work on:
Spacing
Annoying spam
Punishes
Baiting

Forget:
Approaching
Fighting characters shorter than you
Punishing landing characters with anything but Dtilt/Dsmash


Or play against a WFT Amiibo. It plays like Samus for the most part. Also, you can apparently punish many shielded dash attacks with a smash or tilt. Go figure.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Whoops yea I think I was watching videos of Ally recently or something. Anti's WFT is good though.

 

[⑨ball]

-snip-

I keep debating whether or not to comment on your posts because I gathered from our last exchange that it's pretty much leading a horse to water, and that's fine since you made it very clear you're happy with your level of play but it's a bit irksome when you keep dropping these "advice" posts that make it clear you don't understand this character very well.

 

[Lil Puddin]

I keep debating whether or not to comment on your posts because I gathered from our last exchange that it's pretty much leading a horse to water, and that's fine since you made it very clear you're happy with your level of play but it's a bit irksome when you keep dropping these "advice" posts that make it clear you don't understand this character very well.

*shruguu*

It's not advice as much as it is just a personal observation of the character. I do quite well with WFT. Howeveeeer, convincing the masses that WFT isn't borderline garbaje (ie: not just convincing me) is a good place to start. On the plus side, WFT still ain't Brawl Zeldoo/Ganondork.

 

[⑨ball]

*shruguu*

It's not advice as much as it is just a personal observation of the character. I do quite well with WFT. Howeveeeer, convincing the masses that WFT isn't borderline garbaje (ie: not just convincing me) is a good place to start. On the plus side, WFT still ain't Brawl Zeldoo/Ganondork.

The only reason I keep saying anything to you is that your "personal observations" are wrong with a tremendous amount of evidence against them and yet you keep sharing them, and often in threads where players who want to get better are venting about their short comings. It comes across like you're trying to get people to accept your perception of a character despite clearly not knowing much about her and it's really toxic. I especially dislike how you keep discrediting other players with this "EZ army" crap, as if they don't have to work for their wins the same way everyone else does.

Doing well with a character =/= Understanding a character. Not that I believe you in any case or that it'd even matter in this context. The only people in the smash community that honestly believe WFT is anywhere close to garbage are the same people who think that Deep Breathing is just a healing move. You keep bringing up Brawl characters when any issues WFT might have are not even comparable.

 

[BJN39]

tbh I think WFT could quite possibly be low tier material, but that won't stop me from playing and enjoying her highly flawed move designs. <3

I think though, in the long run that because of the great dedication and (mainly) progressive discussion, we could show people she can be good, if it stays like this.

 

[AdaptiveTrigger]

I am starting to have a lot of success with this character in For Glory (given, this probably isn't the greatest way to analyze how good a character is). Before, I couldn't even wrap my mind around what Wii Fit's strengths were. I'm finding a lot of success with being patient, and not trying to force yourself to approach. She has good zoning tools and her healing (as little as it might be) means that most characters will always be forced to approach you. I find that when she is on the ledge, you can stall better than any other character in the game until you are ready to come back on the stage thanks to her header projectile. Her aerials (Up Air, Forward Air, and Neutral Air) are very effective at attacking opponents who are above you.

Overall, I think Wii Fit might be a decent mid tier contender overall.

 

[ChivalRuse]

The only argument for her being mid tier rather than low tier is her fast and insanely damaging Sun Salutation. Header's pretty good too, but not borderline broken like Sun Salutation.

 

[GalaxyWaffles]

It's crazy how often you actually don't have to approach..

 

[AdaptiveTrigger]

The only argument for her being mid tier rather than low tier is her fast and insanely damaging Sun Salutation. Header's pretty good too, but not borderline broken like Sun Salutation.

I find that her damage output is quite high. If I land a Nair on my opponent, I can typically set up a string of attacks that leads to damage ranging in the 30s or 40s. Her Nair does about 14% w/o the use of her deep breathing which is quite high for an aerial.

Here are a list of reasons why I'd argue Wii Fit as being Mid Tier rather than low tier
-Sun Salutation is quite a useful tool
-Zoning and Healing tools means that most characters must approach him/her rather than the other way around (not always)
-Crouch animation is low enough to avoid most projectile attacks in the game and a good number of basic attacks
-Jab combo sets up either guaranteed followed ups or (my preferred option) more damaging mix ups and frame traps
-Jab 1 has a weak backwards hit to push opponents away that is faster than any dsmash
-Wii Fit has 3 meteor smashes (dair, back hit of fair, and header)
-High damage output that can be briefly increased even further with deep breathing
-ftilt has a lot of utility due to having great KO potential and being extremely difficult to punish on shield if used properly
-Fast movement options (note that other characters with chargable projectiles are quite slow)
-Can take your time getting back on stage from the ledge better than any other character
-Recovery covers great distance, and while it can be somewhat easy to intercept it can potentially stage spike the opponent

That isn't to say Wii Fit isn't without her share of weaknesses ofcourse but the point that I'm arguing is that Wii Fit has more positive aspects than just her Sun Salutation that potentially has her in mid tier rather than low tier.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Sure. I was just pointing out that SS is her most notable strength that sets her apart from the rest of the cast. A lot of the characteristics that you listed are nice to have, but not entirely unique to Wii Fit. (Sure, reverse jabs are cool and all, but not exactly game-breaking).

I do think that she is an underrated character; I'm just not sure at this moment in time how far her potential can reach.

 

[⑨ball]

SS is pretty much charge shot lite.

It's only really good on WFT in combination with her movement speed like AdaptiveTrigger mentioned.

In the long run it probably won't be as useful as DB or header.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Tossing out header doesn't pose as much of a threat as charging SS for free. In the campier matchups, SS will give you a distinct edge because it will force your opponent to pressure you to minimize the amount of SS's that you can get to.

 

[⑨ball]

>Header controls the SH space laglessly
> can setup for approaches
> multiply damage for all of your normals including pummel
> can extend your active frames on all your hitboxes or your opponents
> can funnel damage and knockback letting you survive attacks that would have certainly ended you otherwise
> is the fastest recovering spike of that power in the game
>does not stale
> can unstale your other moves
> functions as a third jump and momentum halter
> gives her one of if not the best ledge game
> cancels out projectiles of any and all strength
> has multiple angles it can cover.

I'm sure there's more but off the top of my head, header easily has more utility at the beginning of her metagame. I can't even imagine how much better it's going to get when everyone else starts using it like it should be.

SS is extremely good, so good I'd say charging it is better than most character's neutral shield game, but has limited uses so far in and has the same weaknesses as other projectiles in high level play.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yeah, I guess I've overlooked a lot of great things about header. It does have one notable flaw though: it has a minimum range. If you attempt it while on the stage, the opponent can dash under the hitbox.

Ultimately, though, if you learn how to space it properly, this shouldn't be an issue.

By the by, what do you mean when you say header can

> multiply damage for all of your normals including pummel
> can extend your active frames on all your hitboxes or your opponents

?

 

[⑨ball]

Indeed. Good thing we've got both header and SS. SH header to SS is pretty much bops any other camping game that doesn't have a reflect.

As for those points, they were in my header guide.

When your attacks overlap with header and your opponent(or any other hurtbox) you will hit your opponent, then the ball, then the ball will hit your opponent, doing AT LEAST double what you would have normally. For example, normal dash attack does 6%. Sounds about right for it's speed, yeah? Jab header into dash attack can do as much as 16%. That's more than Ganon gets at 3x the speed. It also does ridiculous shield damage and I'm certain that if I can land a reverse fair we'll have access to an instant shield breaker.

You'll also notice that while you are hitting anything, your active frames will be extended which can make for an extremely powerful option against the [get up] ledge option which has a very small amount of vulnerable frames or as a landing trap.

Because your active frames are longer, you recover later as well, which isn't a big deal to WFT since her best moves to use in tandem with it are fairly punishable anyway, but on other characters who rely on speedy attacks to control space, this can leave them hanging in their animation longer than they'd have liked, setting them up for punishes that might not have been possible otherwise.

 

[ChivalRuse]

It kind of makes sense, but are there any videos demonstrating how to use this tech effectively? I'm having trouble visualizing it.

 

[Shinuto]

I want someone to try and discuss this with me...from what I've seen, WFT's smashes are very laggy in terms of startup and end lag..and I don't see WHY they are...especially given they're rather small hitboxes (D Smash I guess is an exception) and well general lack of power compared to ones that are not only faster, have a bigger radius of attack, and just in general start and end faster. I just want to know...am I just seeing them wrong or something?

Indeed. Good thing we've got both header and SS. SH header to SS is pretty much bops any other camping game that doesn't have a reflect.

As for those points, they were in my header guide.

When your attacks overlap with header and your opponent(or any other hurtbox) you will hit your opponent, then the ball, then the ball will hit your opponent, doing AT LEAST double what you would have normally. For example, normal dash attack does 6%. Sounds about right for it's speed, yeah? Jab header into dash attack can do as much as 16%. That's more than Ganon gets at 3x the speed. It also does ridiculous shield damage and I'm certain that if I can land a reverse fair we'll have access to an instant shield breaker.

You'll also notice that while you are hitting anything, your active frames will be extended which can make for an extremely powerful option against the [get up] ledge option which has a very small amount of vulnerable frames or as a landing trap.

Because your active frames are longer, you recover later as well, which isn't a big deal to WFT since her best moves to use in tandem with it are fairly punishable anyway, but on other characters who rely on speedy attacks to control space, this can leave them hanging in their animation longer than they'd have liked, setting them up for punishes that might not have been possible otherwise.

How the HELL do you hit with ball AND the dash attack at the same TIME?! I've tried everything I can think of to do what you're describing and it just seems like nonsense as I just do not see waht you mean in this...it sounds awesome but....is there like a video in your guide or something?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Well.... Usmash could be good against an opponent jumping at you while you're on a platform.... I think...

 

[⑨ball]

No videos yet, friends. I'm still trying to get setup without neglecting my other responsibilities, but I plan to do a complete WFT guide that covers her normals, specials, movement options, counter play and ATs once I can.

@ Shinuto , your're not wrong about her smashes being laggy. It's most likely an attempt to try and balance all of the other great things WFT has going for her.

>Her hitbubbles are small, but they all have some really interesting properties that will see a lot more use once we get some way to actually view them. This is on top of having appropriate range for her character model width and height.
For example Fsmash actually has really good reach horizontally and hits much further than other lunging characters like Mario.

>general lack of power?
This certainly isn't true. While Dsmash is fairly weak imo and has only ok range for her model, it's real utility is in it's kb angle as it's almost strictly horizontal which can gimp several character far before you might kill them and otherwise put them into a really bad position. Even without Deep Breathing I'm pretty sure sweet spotted Usmash is the strongest smash in the game, but if not certainly with it. Fsmash is a mix of both range and power on a speedy character with a thin frame that has great projectiles so it's a little understandable that she'd have some weaknesses somewhere to offset her strengths. Even still, if you do a little research and comparison you should find that in most cases if WFT doesn't kill earlier with her Fsmash she'll out range them. If she doesn't out range them, she'll recover faster. And in the rare cases where she doesn't do either, there will be some huge character weakness to offset it that she doesn't suffer from.

ex: Fox kills later with his Fsmash but has really good range on it, with the distance affecting it's sweetspot however.
ex: Mario can kill about 5-10% early with his Fsmash depending on the angle, but he's lacking in range.
ex: Bowser hits way further and harder but is much more punishable.
ex: Little Mac hits harder and recovers faster but has the worst recovery in the game.

>Bigger radius of attack
We already touched on her range above so I'll assume this is in reference to her issue with hitting low characters and animations. It's a weakness for sure, but not one that's insurmountable thanks to tilts and SS. It's also one I prefer over something like not having a recovery or being combo fodder.

>Starting and Ending faster
Mostly covered above, but just to assure you, you're not seeing them wrong. However you might not be using them as best you could so I'll offer a few suggestions to help you with them:

• Are you stutterstepping your Fsmashes? You can outrange Fsmashes like Pit and ZSS if you do.
• Dsmash lowers your hitbox considerably and can be used as a devastating landing trap occasionally, experiment with it.
• Usmash has true combos into it and has invincibility making it a really strong anti air.
• Have you considered using Ftilt to punish instead? It's not as strong or as ranged as fsmash, but comes out quicker, recovers faster, still hits both sides, works just as well out of dash pivots, can hit low with it's reverse side and has enough power that it will clank with other really strong fsmashes like Villager's.

>Header plus Dash attack
No videos yet, but I'll walk you through it step by step. It's really easy once you get the hang of it and is my favorite approach against ******* like Olimar and Kirby.

1.Side B
2. Cancel with shield and fast fall by pressing down.
3. Jab the header while it's in the air
4. Follow after the header and dash attack

It's no where near as useful as Diddy's banana but we can get quite a bit of damage out of it and it's pressure on the approach besides that can bait out shields and rolls for punishing as well.

@ ぱみゅ
Nice avatar. I'm pretty sure that's from RWBY, but I forget her name.

 

[mmik]

What's the earliest you can fast fall in general? I always try it at the apex of my short hop and it doesn't help me enough to bother in actual games. (My fault of course.)

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yeah you have to wait till you're at the peak of your jump or past that point.

 

[Shinuto]

No videos yet, friends. I'm still trying to get setup without neglecting my other responsibilities, but I plan to do a complete WFT guide that covers her normals, specials, movement options, counter play and ATs once I can.

@ Shinuto , your're not wrong about her smashes being laggy. It's most likely an attempt to try and balance all of the other great things WFT has going for her.

>Her hitbubbles are small, but they all have some really interesting properties that will see a lot more use once we get some way to actually view them. This is on top of having appropriate range for her character model width and height.
For example Fsmash actually has really good reach horizontally and hits much further than other lunging characters like Mario.

>general lack of power?
This certainly isn't true. While Dsmash is fairly weak imo and has only ok range for her model, it's real utility is in it's kb angle as it's almost strictly horizontal which can gimp several character far before you might kill them and otherwise put them into a really bad position. Even without Deep Breathing I'm pretty sure sweet spotted Usmash is the strongest smash in the game, but if not certainly with it. Fsmash is a mix of both range and power on a speedy character with a thin frame that has great projectiles so it's a little understandable that she'd have some weaknesses somewhere to offset her strengths. Even still, if you do a little research and comparison you should find that in most cases if WFT doesn't kill earlier with her Fsmash she'll out range them. If she doesn't out range them, she'll recover faster. And in the rare cases where she doesn't do either, there will be some huge character weakness to offset it that she doesn't suffer from.

ex: Fox kills later with his Fsmash but has really good range on it, with the distance affecting it's sweetspot however.
ex: Mario can kill about 5-10% early with his Fsmash depending on the angle, but he's lacking in range.
ex: Bowser hits way further and harder but is much more punishable.
ex: Little Mac hits harder and recovers faster but has the worst recovery in the game.

>Bigger radius of attack
We already touched on her range above so I'll assume this is in reference to her issue with hitting low characters and animations. It's a weakness for sure, but not one that's insurmountable thanks to tilts and SS. It's also one I prefer over something like not having a recovery or being combo fodder.

>Starting and Ending faster
Mostly covered above, but just to assure you, you're not seeing them wrong. However you might not be using them as best you could so I'll offer a few suggestions to help you with them:

• Are you stutterstepping your Fsmashes? You can outrange Fsmashes like Pit and ZSS if you do.
• Dsmash lowers your hitbox considerably and can be used as a devastating landing trap occasionally, experiment with it.
• Usmash has true combos into it and has invincibility making it a really strong anti air.
• Have you considered using Ftilt to punish instead? It's not as strong or as ranged as fsmash, but comes out quicker, recovers faster, still hits both sides, works just as well out of dash pivots, can hit low with it's reverse side and has enough power that it will clank with other really strong fsmashes like Villager's.

>Header plus Dash attack
No videos yet, but I'll walk you through it step by step. It's really easy once you get the hang of it and is my favorite approach against ******* like Olimar and Kirby.

1.Side B
2. Cancel with shield and fast fall by pressing down.
3. Jab the header while it's in the air
4. Follow after the header and dash attack

It's no where near as useful as Diddy's banana but we can get quite a bit of damage out of it and it's pressure on the approach besides that can bait out shields and rolls for punishing as well.

@ ぱみゅ
Nice avatar. I'm pretty sure that's from RWBY, but I forget her name.

OHHH thats what you meant by dask attacking with header...and yeah,....I do USE FTilt more to punish due to being quicker...Im just not that good at reads and doing TRUE combos like the rrest of you....do you think you could add me and we could spar?

 

[⑨ball]

I gotta get setup again, but sure I'll pm you when things are good and we'll do some training sessions.

 

[mmik]

So I tried setting a to jump on gcn, and x to standard attack. It's letting me do shorthopped reverse SS almost flawlessly. However, now every single time I try to sh hair, it skips jumping and does an upsmash instead. Anyone else play around with this?

Update: I just changed my controls back and I'm having the same problem... Control practice Mario is telling me jump is being input, but it's not being pressed long enough to jump before attacking. Gonna try my other controller I guess. I've never had this problem.

Apparently I've never tried doing shorthopped uairs before. I told my brother about this and he had the same thing happen. If you slide your finger from jump to attack while holding up on the joystick, it does a smash attack instead of a sh uair or utilt. I guess it's just never practical to do one over other sh attacks...

 

[tofumon]

Anti making WFT look not so bad. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCpPq9rdmq8

That was some excellent WFT play.

 

[⑨ball]

So I tried setting a to jump on gcn, and x to standard attack. It's letting me do shorthopped reverse SS almost flawlessly. However, now every single time I try to sh hair, it skips jumping and does an upsmash instead. Anyone else play around with this?

Update: I just changed my controls back and I'm having the same problem... Control practice Mario is telling me jump is being input, but it's not being pressed long enough to jump before attacking. Gonna try my other controller I guess. I've never had this problem.

Apparently I've never tried doing shorthopped uairs before. I told my brother about this and he had the same thing happen. If you slide your finger from jump to attack while holding up on the joystick, it does a smash attack instead of a sh uair or utilt. I guess it's just never practical to do one over other sh attacks...

The timing can be a little harder to get because doing jump into up + attack can cause what's called a jump canceled usmash. Both are pretty practical in their own right as WFT's uair auto cancels from short hop creating some powerful landing traps. Jump canceled usmash is really good for hard punishes and reads as well as a fine alternative to the hyphen usmash when attempting her best kill combo setup.

 

[ぱみゅ]

@ ぱみゅ
Nice avatar. I'm pretty sure that's from RWBY, but I forget her name.

Velvet Scarlatina
You're welcome c:

 

[Shinuto]

Okay so her grabs and smashes and some other moves....Kirby, Ness to an extent, Pikachu, VIllager and DHD ALL seem to be able to just dodge the attacks by just MOVING and doing certain attacks that if literally any other character tried it WFt would hit them...if this IS a WFT ONLY problem....then it NEEDS to get fixed...cause that makes the MUs just really dumb and cruel towards her....Or maybe I'm just not seeing it right.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Theres a thread in competitive right now that covers attacks that whiff when they shouldnt, so WFT isnt alone

Anyway havent you already made a thread for complaining about her flaws? Why make another?

 

[Shinuto]

Theres a thread in competitive right now that covers attacks that whiff when they shouldnt, so WFT isnt alone

Anyway havent you already made a thread for complaining about her flaws? Why make another?

I kinda forgot actually...sorry.

 

[cwjakesteel]

Obviously Trainer's down-tilt was made OP for MUs like this.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I kinda forgot actually...sorry.

I merged them, don't worry c:

 

[GalaxyWaffles]

Is it bad that I don't use Dtilt much? I just find it to be too slow compared to her other options. I also don't really know when to use it or see the utility of it. I feel like she has better options that can do what Dtilt can and won't.

 

[Luxent]

I think her knockback is fine for the mostpart, with SideSmash, Bair, DSmash, and even Uair can be reliable killing moves.
HOWEVER~

Im personally super annoyed with how weak she is when she's administering percentage.
SuperHoop? 5%, slow, no range, and no knockback?
They also made a mini-game out of the move where the more you press=the more to recover. Only like Mario/DrMario the whole "press the button to go farther!" option, and yet no one else does. Its not faaaairrrr.

WiiFit's down smash FULLY charged does 14%....... really? (10-11% not charged)
Yet her down tilt does 12%. Its just so confusing. I think her aerials are kinda fine, but the fact that her tilts and DSmash do collectively low damage is annoying. Considering other characters administer 15-20% for quick, uncharged smashattacks/tiles.

 

[⑨ball]

Putting on percentage tends to be player issue more so than a character flaw. Obviously if you're choosing slow or high knockback moves as your damage rackers you're going to have a tough time getting to kill percents.

Super hoop is fine. Considering a large handful of recoveries don't even have hitboxes, I'll take the 5% and "minigame" aspect. Especially when it means I can actively influence so many factors in it and land stage spikes as a counter gimp.

Dsmash is fine, considering you don't really want to be trying to build damage with you kill move. Especially smashes since they tend to be very punishable, WFT being the posterchild for this.

You should take into account when thinking of moves, what you get and what's being traded off for it.
For example, WFT's ftilt does about 9%, but is one of her kill moves on both sides and hits on frame 6. I'm also pretty sure that unless they are a heavy, no one is doing anything even close to 15-20 on tilts.

 

[gByron]

I agree smashes has atrocious frames and their damage is pity compared to their high knockbacks. WHY??
I think wii fit trainer's damage output is overrated or lets say too much sun salutation heavy! It gets staled very quickly.. Aerials does good damage but thats compansated with their lag or range so there is nothing special. Her punishing game is also sun salutation reliant. I cant punish rolls effectively with wft as other characters. And, deep breathing is underwhelming. Getting a nice kill with ftilt or back throw is nice but thats so occasional and all other effects are negligible.