How Can Anyone Believe in God?

[Byronman]

i have a question that I want answered!

Where matter came from, how did it come into existence?
Oh and, someone will reply like this of course, because they won't be able to come up with an answer, and are desperate.
"How did your God come into existence."

So please, explain where matter came from without God, please try.
I am saying this, all this matter around us, once it did not exist, and how did it come into existence?
Was it spontaneous, did it just come out of nowhere somehow, just like how the newspapers do in the morning.
Or did some powerful being bring it into existence?

Do you really expect any of us actually know the answer? And newspapers don't just come out of nowhere...

 

[Kur]

i have a question that I want answered!

Where matter came from, how did it come into existence?

We don't know.


Sorry if it isn't good enough for you but we don't know... yet.

BUT simply because we don't know yet, does not mean we never will, or that god automatically exists.

I could ask you "Exactly how many chickens does it take to pull a 747 100 feet?" and just because you can't give me an answer right now, does not mean that chickens can not pull a 747, or that it is impossible to ever find out how many chickens it would take.

Simply ascribing God to something we can not explain is a dead end. Once we decide that 'god did it!' we no longer need to look for answers. That is simply not how science works.

Why don't you tell me how your computer put images on your screen? Can't? Must be god then. Don't bother trying to find out, god did it.

And even IF you could disprove the big bang, or evolution, or nebula theory, or abiogenisis, or geology, that still does not mean there is a god. It just means science was wrong.

I could claim that Bob stole my money and you could claim that Walt stole it. You might prove that Bob did not do it but that doesn't mean Walt did, because it just as easily could have been Jim the whole time.

 

[derek.haines]

What research can encompass that which isn't completely physical, Alt?

Wouldn't a creation timetable look something like : super-natural occurence ( motives taking action); then physical existence ( result)?

I'd love to see how scientists can validly explain how they could know this one way or the other.

I'm not exactly Alt, but I think I can do this one pretty good justice. What you've presented is a terribly gross over-simplification. We can actually look back into the past within a few million years of the Big Bang, and using the laws of physics combined with extremely sophisticated mathematics we can hammer out an extremely valid hypothesis of what was taking place during the Big Bang and the time immediately afterward. The thing is, the Big Bang wasn't "creation" in a Biblical sense, but rather it brought forth the Universe as we know it now and the various mechanisms that drive it. We have no idea what existed before the Big Bang (if anything), and thus we have no idea what caused it--so scientists don't even factor it into their thinking. It's beyond the realm of modern science. It's interesting to discuss on a philosophical level, but pointless on a scientific one.

Your calling the even "supernatural" is actually ironic, as the Big Bang itself had a period which broke the laws of physics, making it somewhat supernatural.

 

[Johnthegalactic]

Lol, you really had to point out that newspapers do not come out of nowhere, thanks man, I better let the delivery boy know this, and maybe he will know why people keep thanking him.

Anyway, yeah, a difficult question to answer that is for many, and it seems many people dodge it.

But, I believe, that matter that we are now, was brought into existence by an all powerful, all knowing being, who I know as God.
But, why would such a creator just bring a bunch of crap into existence, and hope something happens, I believe he is a loving creator who wanted to make something he could attach himself to, emotionally.
I believe that this humble earth is his most admired work, and that each human on this earth, man, woman, black, white, dumb or desolate, is his greatest creation, made in his image, that he loves unconditionally and would die for, why, this seems Christian, why I believe he did die for us, as Jesus, why the creator brought himself to this earth through a virgin birth and walked with us, ate with us, felt pain like us, lost loved ones the same way we do, and even died like us, just the way we do.
But the thing is, he never made the mistakes that we do, he never hurt someone, or stole something.
He was not deserving death as we, due to our things that our God has made wrong, will die from.
I believe, because of this, Jesus could not stay dead, but rose from the grave.
And that he paid the price that even our death cannot pay for our bad things we have done, so that we may be free from the bondage of sin, and enter heaven and be with our creator.

This, is why I believe.

I'm not exactly Alt, but I think I can do this one pretty good justice. What you've presented is a terribly gross over-simplification. We can actually look back into the past within a few million years of the Big Bang, and using the laws of physics combined with extremely sophisticated mathematics we can hammer out an extremely valid hypothesis of what was taking place during the Big Bang and the time immediately afterward. The thing is, the Big Bang wasn't "creation" in a Biblical sense, but rather it brought forth the Universe as we know it now and the various mechanisms that drive it. We have no idea what existed before the Big Bang (if anything), and thus we have no idea what caused it--so scientists don't even factor it into their thinking. It's beyond the realm of modern science. It's interesting to discuss on a philosophical level, but pointless on a scientific one.

Your calling the even "supernatural" is actually ironic, as the Big Bang itself had a period which broke the laws of physics, making it somewhat supernatural.

e
Hello,I believe the big Bang is a theory, that takes faith to believe, and while you say that what existed before the big bang is unknown, why, it is theorized that before the small, small spot of very compressed matter, was matter compressing in on itself.
The Big Bang Believers, or BBBs as I just now will start calling them, believe, that is if they truly are in depth with the theory, that after a big bang, and all outward force has been exerted, that gravity will bring all matter back together, in a "Big Crunch".
Thus, it is a perpetual cycle of explosion, with raising complexity as time passes due to the somehow existent anomaly's in this perfectly compress and rotating disk of matter, and then a re-compression leading to the next cycle.
Basically, we are considered nothing special, an odd anomalous chance formation that can delve into the supernatural, which does not exist.

 

[Byronman]

I'm not exactly Alt, but I think I can do this one pretty good justice. What you've presented is a terribly gross over-simplification. We can actually look back into the past within a few million years of the Big Bang, and using the laws of physics combined with extremely sophisticated mathematics we can hammer out an extremely valid hypothesis of what was taking place during the Big Bang and the time immediately afterward. The thing is, the Big Bang wasn't "creation" in a Biblical sense, but rather it brought forth the Universe as we know it now and the various mechanisms that drive it. We have no idea what existed before the Big Bang (if anything), and thus we have no idea what caused it--so scientists don't even factor it into their thinking. It's beyond the realm of modern science. It's interesting to discuss on a philosophical level, but pointless on a scientific one.

Your calling the even "supernatural" is actually ironic, as the Big Bang itself had a period which broke the laws of physics, making it somewhat supernatural.

So your saying that the big bang is like continental drift, it just is something that is (or was i guess) happening over the passage of time (perhaps that was a little too simplified). But I actually don't know much about the Big Bang, what about it breaks the laws of physics?

Lol, you really had to point out that newspapers do not come out of nowhere, thanks man, I better let the delivery boy know this, and maybe he will know why people keep thanking him.

Anyway, yeah, a difficult question to answer that is for many, and it seems many people dodge it.

But, I believe, that matter that we are now, was brought into existence by an all powerful, all knowing being, who I know as God.
But, why would such a creator just bring a bunch of crap into existence, and hope something happens, I believe he is a loving creator who wanted to make something he could attach himself to, emotionally.
I believe that this humble earth is his most admired work, and that each human on this earth, man, woman, black, white, dumb or desolate, is his greatest creation, made in his image, that he loves unconditionally and would die for, why, this seems Christian, why I believe he did die for us, as Jesus, why the creator brought himself to this earth through a virgin birth and walked with us, ate with us, felt pain like us, lost loved ones the same way we do, and even died like us, just the way we do.
But the thing is, he never made the mistakes that we do, he never hurt someone, or stole something.
He was not deserving death as we, due to our things that our God has made wrong, will die from.
I believe, because of this, Jesus could not stay dead, but rose from the grave.
And that he paid the price that even our death cannot pay for our bad things we have done, so that we may be free from the bondage of sin, and enter heaven and be with our creator.

This, is why I believe.

Lol sorry it kind of bothered me. But if you had an answer, why did you ask the question?

 

[Johnthegalactic]

So your saying that the big bang is like continental drift, it just is something that is (or was i guess) happening over the passage of time (perhaps that was a little too simplified). But I actually don't know much about the Big Bang, what about it breaks the laws of physics?



Lol sorry it kind of bothered me. But if you had an answer, why did you ask the question?

I have learned about the big bang, and it explains the universe, but not the origin of matter itself.

I asked the question, because, how can it be answered? No human has observed matter being created, and as far as I "believe", matter was created by God.
I also believe we are not just matter, but something, more.
Are feeling matter, can they be touched and observed, yes the symptoms can, teary eyes, depression, mental anguish, but no they cannot, what is it when we are affected by deep words, by spiritual things, parables of Jesus, words of Confucias.
We are more than just matter, and I hope you can understand that, we are not the same as a rock or the air we breath.
We are special beings, no matter what, you must have, at the very least, enough sense to notice this.

 

[Byronman]

I have learned about the big bang, and it explains the universe, but not the origin of matter itself.

I asked the question, because, how can it be answered? No human has observed matter being created, and as far as I "believe", matter was created by God.
I also believe we are not just matter, but something, more.
Are feeling matter, can they be touched and observed, yes the symptoms can, teary eyes, depression, mental anguish, but no they cannot, what is it when we are affected by deep words, by spiritual things, parables of Jesus, words of Confucias.
We are more than just matter, and I hope you can understand that, we are not the same as a rock or the air we breath.
We are special beings, no matter what, you must have, at the very least, enough sense to notice this.

I agree with this, us being affected by these feelings make us unique to all other beings that we know about. Still, your asking of the question was pointless. If it can't be answered as you said, then why ask.

Just note that some feelings are caused by chemicals in your brain as a result of evolution and us actually being living creatures (Man, I feel as if I am contradicting myself)

 

[Johnthegalactic]

I agree with this, us being affected by these feelings make us unique to all other beings that we know about. Still, your asking of the question was pointless. If it can't be answered as you said, then why ask.

Just note that some feelings are caused by chemicals in your brain as a result of evolution and us actually being living creatures (Man, I feel as if I am contradicting myself)

Well, some feelings are more of required impulses, yes, caused by hormones, such as urges to mate or stuff that vertebrates do, most, some are asexual.

There was a point to that question, some people said it could not be answered, it was my question, and I knew, it was a question, that science cannot explain, but it is one that needs answered.
I offered my answer to the question, as to answer the forums main question, of how can anyone believe in God, why, should I do that silly forum thing some people do now?
not really though, i want you people to keep on discussing, pour out your knowledge, what you believe, let's analyze things together, why, what, could, how, maybe we can answer some of these, I may not, but hopefully someone can.
Let's try to lift each other up, rather than tear each other down.

/forum

/a new forum starts here

 

[Byronman]

^^I don't know about that, did we ever really answer the question?

 

[Johnthegalactic]

How can anybody believe in God?
Why, I explained why I can.
So yes, the question was answered.

 

[Byronman]

Just making sure

/thread then

 

[RDK]

Seriously Crimson, how do these people keep passing the Debate Hall test?

Johnthegalactic, please read the OP before diving into a discussion you know nothing about. I addressed all your poorly thought out points about a loving God who created us in the OP.

P.S: Saying God is the origin of all matter is idiotic at best when nothing we've observed through science when point to that. The Big Bang is infinitely more probable than a divine deity (although the Big Bang wasn't what created matter per se), because we're able to use what we know about our universe to come to that conclusion. It's not the best conclusion possible, and it may not even be the right one, but by default it's better than saying "GOD DID IT". Occam's Razor.

 

[Byronman]

And how do you know that creation of matter by a divine deity and the big bang are not unrelated? As you said, it was not the creation of matter per se. It was just what created the universe we observe now, not the actual matter. And what about time? How do you explain the very beginning before the big bang? Science and matter and reality itself could not have created itself.

 

[RDK]

And how do you know that creation of matter by a divine deity and the big bang are not unrelated?

I don't. But the current theory of the Big Bang and our knowledge of the universe in general does not include God. There's no reason to believe in God whatsoever. A theory that includes God as a stand-in when there are perfectly fine explanations for how things came about naturally is, by default, an inferior theory.

As you said, it was not the creation of matter per se. It was just what created the universe we observe now, not the actual matter. And what about time? How do you explain the very beginning before the big bang? Science and matter and reality itself could not have created itself.

Sure it could have! Assuming time created itself is equally as viable as the theory that a deity created it.

See how silly the creation theory sounds?

 

[Johnthegalactic]

I know this topic is going to cause quite a fuss, but honestly, the more and more I see what kind of sick **** goes on in this world, the more and more I want to physically strike some of the Christians I know, who constantly shrug terrible things off as "God has a plan", or "God didn't do it, people did."

Christians believe God is all-loving. Why would an all-loving God let the atrocities going on in our world happen? And another thing I don't get--why even create us when, being the omnipotent and omnipresent God He is, He must have known that we would have ****ed up royally and ****ed ourselves to an eternity in Hell?

Christians usually try to explain this by saying that God yearns for a personal relationship with us. This is probably one of the most absurd things I've ever heard in my life. Growing up in a Christian home, I've heard a lot of whacko stuff, but this one really takes the cake. I'm supremely glad that I started thinking for myself before graduating.

Why does the Almighty God, creator of the universe, desire a personal relationship with a sinful being? If He's an all-powerful God, won't He by default know anything and everything about us, thus making this "relationship" moot?

Also, according to the Bible, sin entered the world through Adam and Eve sinning in the Garden. Why should the rest of humanity have to suffer from the bad decision of two people? That's utterly ridiculous. Why should I have to pay for the sins of Adam?

About Hell: why should truly good people who just have the misfortune of not knowing about Christ have to suffer in flames (for eternity, mind you) next to child molesters /abusers, rapists, murderers, dictators, etc.? And worse yet, what about the truly bad people who "repent" and join the faith?

Basically, this is just a rant, but I've been wanting to get this off my chest for a long time.

[/rant]

Interesting how things work, we talked about this in Church very recently, and sorry, that I disregarded your original post.
God did not intend for us to have a free will, were just his most perfect creation, made in his mighty image.
But, a prideful angel created by God, named Lucifer was cast down from heaven along with his followers, and this is probably old news to many of you.
Anyway, this fallen angel has seen God's most sacred creation, one capable of many things, but those include bad things the their creator does not like.
This jealous, fallen angel, now seen as Satan, attempts to separate us, from our God, by giving us free will, where we can do things our God sees as good, or things he sees as bad.
Man takes the bait, and is separated from God, Satan has reached his goal supposedly reached.
God went ahead and created us, despite knowing what would happen. He loves us, and wants us to love him back.
But we are all born into sin, Adams children were born into his sin, and so on, but you can be forgiven for your sin, God, as all knowing as he is, will forget your sins!
God wants to have a personal relationship with his creation that was made in his image, and us to have one with him, where we can enjoy his grace and blessings, as in our relationship, our sins are forgiven and forgotten.

"About Hell: why should truly good people who just have the misfortune of not knowing about Christ have to suffer in flames (for eternity, mind you) next to child molesters /abusers, rapists, murderers, dictators, etc.? And worse yet, what about the truly bad people who "repent" and join the faith?"
Interesting, after a recent Church service I felt it very important to ask the pastor about this too!
He said, whenever people notice creation, and how it is so marvelous, and they know that there is something missing, God will do everything he can to get a believer of his word to bring the message to these people who want to know why! Sure it is hard to get an guy on foot in the year 600 AD to Japan to share the word about Jesus, but possible.
And before the death of Jesus, as sad as this sounds, but the Israeli's were God's chosen people descended from Abraham, to live in his blessings and enter his heaven.
When Jesus died, it was possible for anyone to be reached by God's love, there was no longer that horrible separation between us and our loving creator, now we could come directly to him.
And truly bad people who repent and join the faith, we all are separate from God, we all have sins and God will let anyone repent and be free from his subjection to their sin, maybe not a fellow mans though.
But, many truly bad people never do repent of their sins before dieing, they have suppressed their conscience and have trouble discerning good from bad, which is sad.
And I highly doubt someone as bad as Hitler would have repented, believed he was free of sin, then killed himself.

 

[Byronman]

When it comes down to it any creation theory sounds silly I guess. And of course no scientific knowledge has anything to do with God because He contradicts many established laws and theories. It is odd how we humans think we can understand different things like "the meaning of life" and "the origin of reality." Because we are creations of a higher being we can not understand the motives and meaning behind what that being does completely. A computer is incapable of many functions that humans can perform, like thinking and reasoning. That could be similar to our relationship with God. We cannot comprehend what He is or what He is capable of because we are mere creations, even if we are made in his image. I don't think I worded that the best way...

 

[RDK]

Interesting how things work, we talked about this in Church very recently, and sorry, that I disregarded your original post.
God did not intend for us to have a free will, were just his most perfect creation, made in his mighty image.

I don't know what church you come from, but no mainstream Christian organizations believe that we weren't created to have free will, lol.

But, a prideful angel created by God, named Lucifer was cast down from heaven along with his followers, and this is probably old news to many of you.
Anyway, this fallen angel has seen God's most sacred creation, one capable of many things, but those include bad things the their creator does not like.
This jealous, fallen angel, now seen as Satan, attempts to separate us, from our God, by giving us free will, where we can do things our God sees as good, or things he sees as bad.
Man takes the bait, and is separated from God, Satan has reached his goal supposedly reached.

I thought God didn't intend for anyone to have free will? In that case, where did Lucifer get it from?

God went ahead and created us, despite knowing what would happen. He loves us, and wants us to love him back.

So God ****ed the overwhelming majority of his creation to hell just because he loved us and wanted us to love him back? Sounds a little selfish if you ask me.

But we are all born into sin, Adams children were born into his sin, and so on, but you can be forgiven for your sin, God, as all knowing as he is, will forget your sins!

Why should I be punished for the sins of Adam?

God wants to have a personal relationship with his creation that was made in his image, and us to have one with him, where we can enjoy his grace and blessings, as in our relationship, our sins are forgiven and forgotten.

What if I don't want a personal relationship with God?

Interesting, after a recent Church service I felt it very important to ask the pastor about this too!
He said, whenever people notice creation, and how it is so marvelous, and they know that there is something missing, God will do everything he can to get a believer of his word to bring the message to these people who want to know why! Sure it is hard to get an guy on foot in the year 600 AD to Japan to share the word about Jesus, but possible.

Is it really? Proof or it didn't happen.

And before the death of Jesus, as sad as this sounds, but the Israeli's were God's chosen people descended from Abraham, to live in his blessings and enter his heaven.
When Jesus died, it was possible for anyone to be reached by God's love, there was no longer that horrible separation between us and our loving creator, now we could come directly to him.

So originally God made it so that only a small group of people could enter Heaven? That doesn't sound like an all-loving God to me at all.

Like I said, I grew up in the church (although now I'm an atheist / agnostic), so I know the ropes when it comes to doctrine, and I'm glad I don't believe that crock anymore. It sounds so foolish and illogical from the other side. And I don't know what kind of junk your preacher is feeding you, because it's not even mainstream Christian belief. Are you Mormon or something?

 

[Byronman]

So originally God made it so that only a small group of people could enter Heaven? That doesn't sound like an all-loving God to me at all.

Like I said, I grew up in the church (although now I'm an atheist / agnostic), so I know the ropes when it comes to doctrine, and I'm glad I don't believe that crock anymore. It sounds so foolish and illogical from the other side. And I don't know what kind of junk your preacher is feeding you, because it's not even mainstream Christian belief. Are you Mormon or something?

You should know then that God made it so no one could get into Heaven because his first creations disobeyed him. His punishment was to all human kind after that. This is the concept of original sin. The reason you do not understand this reasoning is because you and I are just creations of Him. And for his all-lovingness, he sacrificed his only son, a part of the trinity that is God, for our salvation and to allow us to enter heaven. To get rid of the original sin.

 

[Johnthegalactic]

In the below quote, my words are in white.

I don't know what church you come from, but no mainstream Christian organizations believe that we weren't created to have free will, lol.

Maybe the mainstream is wrong, what it is, we originally were not free to do good and bad things.


I thought God didn't intend for anyone to have free will? In that case, where did Lucifer get it from?

Humans were not created with a free will, as for Lucifer, he was one of the highest angel, and I think his name means Son of light or something, but he was prideful because of his status to the point where he decided he was just as good or better than his creator, and then was cast out of heaven, along with 1/3 of the angels, which were the ones that supported him.


So God ****ed the overwhelming majority of his creation to hell just because he loved us and wanted us to love him back? Sounds a little selfish if you ask me.

What do you mean, animals and trees have done no wrong.
And all that time where only God's chosen people could have a relationship with him, prophecy was being set up, so people would not have reason to doubt Jesus, as he fulfilled every prophecy to the letter, and there were a whole bunch of them.

Why should I be punished for the sins of Adam?

Because, we were born into our ancestors sin, and have sinned ourselves.
But we can be forgiven through the sacrifice made by Jesus.

What if I don't want a personal relationship with God?

Well, I am sorry, but, God may want one with you, but if you do not want one, so be it, he won't force you.

Is it really? Proof or it didn't happen.

Proof, it takes faith, but read the texts, you believe a text book that changes every couple years, why not something as solid as the Bible, that never changes, despite replacing thou with the so we can understand better with our modern language.

So originally God made it so that only a small group of people could enter Heaven? That doesn't sound like an all-loving God to me at all.

Originally, God made it so we never died, as there was no sin, which the wages of sin are death. Good thing he was all loving and made our sins forgivable.

Like I said, I grew up in the church (although now I'm an atheist / agnostic), so I know the ropes when it comes to doctrine, and I'm glad I don't believe that crock anymore. It sounds so foolish and illogical from the other side. And I don't know what kind of junk your preacher is feeding you, because it's not even mainstream Christian belief. Are you Mormon or something?

No, I am not Mormon, I listen to what is in my Bible though and want to do God's will, my sins are forgiven buddy, and anyones can be. If your Church did not seem right, maybe they weren't, just cause it is a Church doesn't mean they are right, Satan wants to get inside the Church and corrupt it, some Churches have been, some don't teach the Bible or worship God, which is why there was Church in the first place.
Sometimes, the mainstream is wrong and gets caught up in trying to be so popular, they lose grasp of why many attend Church, for a relationship with our God.

Hopefully someones questions were answered.

 

[derek.haines]

Hello,I believe the big Bang is a theory, that takes faith to believe, and while you say that what existed before the big bang is unknown, why, it is theorized that before the small, small spot of very compressed matter, was matter compressing in on itself.
The Big Bang Believers, or BBBs as I just now will start calling them, believe, that is if they truly are in depth with the theory, that after a big bang, and all outward force has been exerted, that gravity will bring all matter back together, in a "Big Crunch".
Thus, it is a perpetual cycle of explosion, with raising complexity as time passes due to the somehow existent anomaly's in this perfectly compress and rotating disk of matter, and then a re-compression leading to the next cycle.
Basically, we are considered nothing special, an odd anomalous chance formation that can delve into the supernatural, which does not exist.

Hiya! You're exactly right. In scientific terms (and certainly in the scope of the entire Universe), we here on Earth are absolutely nothing special. We're just a freak occurrence based on a sophisticated series of building blocks that fell into place that seems to have worked out for the most part. Also, the Big Bang did not explode with matter, but with spacetime, the increasing distance between two points. Matter was created from the chaotic periods after the Big Bang.

Yes, the Big Bang is a theory, but that's only as a whole concept. It's based almost entirely off of completely observable and mathematically provable parts, so it's difficult to assert that belief in it is entirely "faith" based.

So your saying that the big bang is like continental drift, it just is something that is (or was i guess) happening over the passage of time (perhaps that was a little too simplified). But I actually don't know much about the Big Bang, what about it breaks the laws of physics?

You're right, but, yeah, that was pretty simplified. We study the Big Bang because it's as far back as we can feasibly study. Numerous theories state that our Universe as it exists is only one in a series, and based on the amount of information we have about the pre-Universe (e.g. none) each theory is just as possible as the next.

I asked the question, because, how can it be answered? No human has observed matter being created, and as far as I "believe", matter was created by God.

To do that is to descend into the very origins of religion itself: To explain what is unexplainable. It's remarkably easy to descend to this line of thinking, so it's why people have done it for thousands of years. But we CAN explain now, these things are no longer unexplainable. We've surpassed our need for an external cause for the machinations of our world, as we've been able to uncover the forces that truly drive them.

 

[derek.haines]

In the below quote, my words are in white.



No, I am not Mormon, I listen to what is in my Bible though and want to do God's will, my sins are forgiven buddy, and anyones can be. If your Church did not seem right, maybe they weren't, just cause it is a Church doesn't mean they are right, Satan wants to get inside the Church and corrupt it, some Churches have been, some don't teach the Bible or worship God, which is why there was Church in the first place.
Sometimes, the mainstream is wrong and gets caught up in trying to be so popular, they lose grasp of why many attend Church, for a relationship with our God.

Hopefully someones questions were answered.

Wait--so your Church is right, but not some others? That makes it just as big of a leap of faith to select a Church as it is to believe in the first place.

 

[Johnthegalactic]

Hiya! You're exactly right. In scientific terms (and certainly in the scope of the entire Universe), we here on Earth are absolutely nothing special. We're just a freak occurrence based on a sophisticated series of building blocks that fell into place that seems to have worked out for the most part. Also, the Big Bang did not explode with matter, but with spacetime, the increasing distance between two points. Matter was created from the chaotic periods after the Big Bang.

Yes, the Big Bang is a theory, but that's only as a whole concept. It's based almost entirely off of completely observable and mathematically provable parts, so it's difficult to assert that belief in it is entirely "faith" based.

You're right, but, yeah, that was pretty simplified. We study the Big Bang because it's as far back as we can feasibly study. Numerous theories state that our Universe as it exists is only one in a series, and based on the amount of information we have about the pre-Universe (e.g. none) each theory is just as possible as the next.

To do that is to descend into the very origins of religion itself: To explain what is unexplainable. It's remarkably easy to descend to this line of thinking, so it's why people have done it for thousands of years. But we CAN explain now, these things are no longer unexplainable. We've surpassed our need for an external cause for the machinations of our world, as we've been able to uncover the forces that truly drive them.

So, explain to me, where matter began, explain to me that.
You are so prideful about how man, which you believe is just a small worthless piece of junk, knows everything, and can figure out anything, and is totally self reliant!
Do not tell me there is no answer, because, I know there is, and it is God, you, just, dodged the point, matter was created, by God!
We can understand these physics, and other sciences, that does not mean these are not God's creations.

Since God made us capable of so much intelligence, he must have made so much for us to observe so we could feel smart and knowledgeable.

Wait--so your Church is right, but not some others? That makes it just as big of a leap of faith to select a Church as it is to believe in the first place.

I just meant, like many governments are corrupted, a Church can be too, and some are.
Some do not do what the Bible says to do, as in reading God's word, and worshiping him, and sharing his message.
Just like how some governments don't do what they should do.
Not that these problems cannot be solved, as it is possible to help people and fix a problem.

 

[Byronman]

To do that is to descend into the very origins of religion itself: To explain what is unexplainable. It's remarkably easy to descend to this line of thinking, so it's why people have done it for thousands of years. But we CAN explain now, these things are no longer unexplainable. We've surpassed our need for an external cause for the machinations of our world, as we've been able to uncover the forces that truly drive them.

But you cannot explain the origins of matter and reality itself.

Wait--so your Church is right, but not some others? That makes it just as big of a leap of faith to select a Church as it is to believe in the first place.

Well, there is the difference of the divisions of Christianity, some could be misguided, and some churches are probably corrupt. Whether with money or the media or otherwise. Humans are flawed and priests are no different (most have a little more restraint than most people however). Take into account the events that lead to the Protestant Reformation. Most churches are fine, however.

 

[derek.haines]

But you cannot explain the origins of matter and reality itself.

That's extremely easy. Einstein explained through his famous E=MC2 that energy can be converted into matter and vice versa. Therefore, the energy generated by the Big Bang became matter. It created it, and Einstein explained it to us.

Well, there is the difference of the divisions of Christianity, some could be misguided, and some churches are probably corrupt. Whether with money or the media or otherwise. Humans are flawed and priests are no different (most have a little more restraint than most people however). Take into account the events that lead to the Protestant Reformation. Most churches are fine, however.

But then how is someone to know? The majority of Christian denominations regard each other as little more than blasphemers. To a Baptist, Mormons are heretical. To a Catholic, Protestants are little short of evil (speaking in terms of religion). In short, any view but their view is wrong. But why would their way of thinking be any more valid than Islam or even native indigenous religions? If God cared so deeply for his creations and was such a jealous God (as stated in the Bible) then why in the world would he allow the people--his people--to be taught and believe any way other than what he wanted?

 

[Byronman]

That's extremely easy. Einstein explained through his famous E=MC2 that energy can be converted into matter and vice versa. Therefore, the energy generated by the Big Bang became matter. It created it, and Einstein explained it to us.

Then where did the big bang come from. You are not really answering the question. You are saying that one of the most debated questions in the world is easy to answer. If this were the answer, this question would be long buried.

But then how is someone to know? The majority of Christian denominations regard each other as little more than blasphemers. To a Baptist, Mormons are heretical. To a Catholic, Protestants are little short of evil (speaking in terms of religion). In short, any view but their view is wrong. But why would their way of thinking be any more valid than Islam or even native indigenous religions?

The same could be said about the various scientific creation theories. And the other denominations of Christianity do not hate each other, they just disagree. I don't hate you, but I disagree with you.

If God cared so deeply for his creations and was such a jealous God (as stated in the Bible) then why in the world would he allow the people--his people--to be taught and believe any way other than what he wanted?

That was explained by johnthegalactics posts earlier.

 

[Johnthegalactic]

That's extremely easy. Einstein explained through his famous E=MC2 that energy can be converted into matter and vice versa. Therefore, the energy generated by the Big Bang became matter. It created it, and Einstein explained it to us.



But then how is someone to know? The majority of Christian denominations regard each other as little more than blasphemers. To a Baptist, Mormons are heretical. To a Catholic, Protestants are little short of evil (speaking in terms of religion). In short, any view but their view is wrong. But why would their way of thinking be any more valid than Islam or even native indigenous religions? If God cared so deeply for his creations and was such a jealous God (as stated in the Bible) then why in the world would he allow the people--his people--to be taught and believe any way other than what he wanted?

First off, where did this energy come from, second off, that is circular reasoning, and again, you try to dodge the question of where did the matter, and I must now add the energy come from, or originate, that is now our universe?
And, the Big Bang was all the matter in the universe, compressed into an extremely small space, not energy, so wrong.
God wants us Christians to connect with each other and reach out to the world.
It is just Satan working into to church, dividing us up and getting us fighting, so we are too busy with each other, while his works on his goal of screwing over God's creations.
Too bad that some Christians cannot get over slight differences in faith to pursue a common goal.
And, my sister is out in Mexico sharing the gospel with people unfortunate enough to not know Jesus right now, so as far as I know, he is allowing his people he created to know him, it is just, do they want to, as some will refuse.

 

[derek.haines]

Then where did the big bang come from. You are not really answering the question. You are saying that one of the most debated questions in the world is easy to answer. If this were the answer, this question would be long buried.

No, I'm answering your question as it can be answered with the knowledge we now have. Both you and Johnthegalactic are asking the same question I've debated with for so long--the problem is, that question doesn't have an answer that we can ever know. I'll quote Stephen Hawking, just as I did in an earlier post.

"Since events before the Big Bang have no observational consequences, one may as well cut them out of the theory, and say that time began at the Big Bang. Events before the Big Bang, are simply not defined, because there's no way one could measure what happened at them."

I'd love just as much as everyone to know the why of the Big Bang, but we just don't. We probably can't. But we do know (to an extent) the how of it. Matter came from the energy produced by the Big Bang, and the energy came (as far as I'm aware) from the infinite heat that existed. It's trying to overlay a philosophical topic onto a scientific one, and it just doesn't work. The philosophy of it is fascinating. "What existed before the Big Bang? Where did the Big Bang come from?" That's an awesome question, but it's about as answerable as "Where is God?". We don't know the answer, but as far as we know it's irrelevant when one is talking about the expansion of the Universe from that gravitational singularity till now.

And, my sister is out in Mexico sharing the gospel with people unfortunate enough to not know Jesus right now, so as far as I know, he is allowing his people he created to know him, it is just, do they want to, as some will refuse.

I want to know what makes them unfortunate not to know your vengeful, jealous God. Perhaps they are lucky to not know your Christian God, but extremely unlucky not to know a Muslim God. Maybe they should know the Buddha, I've heard he's a righteous dude.

I would just like to think that if there is an afterlife then a person should be allowed to get there whether they are religious are not, based solely on being a decent human being--they shouldn't have to be coerced into being decent with threats of eternal ****ation.

 

[Johnthegalactic]

I know the answer to where is God?
God is with us!
That is what Immanuel means, and who Jesus was, God with us!

And since you cannot explain what happened before your Big Bang, I explain that there was God, and when the universe began it was created by him.
You cannot say there is no answer, i have mine, and as far as I know, your Big Bang is just as much of a faith as mine in Jesus!
I have a solid, unchanging book that backs my claims.
You have textbooks that must be revised every few years because they found out that something they taught was false, and had to adjust several statements.

When you cannot explain where the things that make up this universe came from and I have my explanation, there is your answer, as far as I know, you do not have one, and I do, and you keep completely disregarding it.
That is rude, I made sure I know what your Big Bang theory is about, and see the logic in it, but since it doesn't tell me the complete story, I will go with the complete story instead, the word of God.

 

[RDK]

First, let me point out that you're a complete idiot.

I know the answer to where is God?
God is with us!

Proof, or it didn't happen.

And since you cannot explain what happened before your Big Bang, I explain that there was God, and when the universe began it was created by him.

Again--prove, don't explain. You have no idea what happened before the Big Bang.

You cannot say there is no answer, i have mine

Answers do not vary between individuals when it comes to fact. There is a correct answer, and there are wrong answers.

and as far as I know, your Big Bang is just as much of a faith as mine in Jesus!

Yes, as far as you know, because you're incredibly unknowledgable about anything important. How is the Big Bang a matter of faith? Scientific study points to a Big Bang. Nothing points to God.

I have a solid, unchanging book that backs my claims.

If you think the Bible is inerrant, then you're a bigger fool than I thought you were.

You have textbooks that must be revised every few years because they found out that something they taught was false, and had to adjust several statements.

That's science, no? The pursuit of truth.

At least we're not arrogant enough to assume we know all there is to know about everything. The fact is, science isn't exact. We learn new things about our universe every day, and every day we're one step closer to showing that Christianity is false.

When you cannot explain where the things that make up this universe came from and I have my explanation, there is your answer, as far as I know, you do not have one, and I do, and you keep completely disregarding it.

Lol, your debating skills are absurd. How can you say we don't have one? We've already explained it to you.

And if you mean we don't have an answer for what happened before the Big Bang, then you're right. Neither do you, really. Just because you have an "answer" and we don't doesn't make your assumption automatically correct.

That is rude, I made sure I know what your Big Bang theory is about, and see the logic in it, but since it doesn't tell me the complete story, I will go with the complete story instead, the word of God.

Your theory is ridiculous and is based on no scientific evidence whatsoever. I'd rather have a partly unproven theory that is held up by facts than a complete guess based on nothing.

 

[Wikipedia]

LOL "are you Mormon or something?"

 

[Johnthegalactic]

First, let me point out that you're a complete idiot.



Proof, or it didn't happen.



Again--prove, don't explain. You have no idea what happened before the Big Bang.



Answers do not vary between individuals when it comes to fact. There is a correct answer, and there are wrong answers.



Yes, as far as you know, because you're incredibly unknowledgable about anything important. How is the Big Bang a matter of faith? Scientific study points to a Big Bang. Nothing points to God.



If you think the Bible is inerrant, then you're a bigger fool than I thought you were.



That's science, no? The pursuit of truth.

At least we're not arrogant enough to assume we know all there is to know about everything. The fact is, science isn't exact. We learn new things about our universe every day, and every day we're one step closer to showing that Christianity is false.



Lol, your debating skills are absurd. How can you say we don't have one? We've already explained it to you.

And if you mean we don't have an answer for what happened before the Big Bang, then you're right. Neither do you, really. Just because you have an "answer" and we don't doesn't make your assumption automatically correct.



Your theory is ridiculous and is based on no scientific evidence whatsoever. I'd rather have a partly unproven theory that is held up by facts than a complete guess based on nothing.

According to the Bible, before creation, there was God, and nothing else, he is our Alpha and Omega, our beginning and end, and we will never know what was before Alpha and what is after Omega. So, as far as i can explain, we aren't going to know more than God created this universe.
Again, when there is no answer, and someone steps up with theirs, then an answer has been submitted, and it is foolish to say their is not one.
And again, science points to God, just look around you at things that could not have arisen by chance, it is as obvious as the thing on your face being your nose.
Ever hear of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Bible is virtually unchanged over the course of thousands of years, we would have corrected any faults we found.
Also, I was not the one who assumed i know everything you and derek.haines were saying that you know there is no answer because you have not found it.
You say because i have an answer it is not automatically correct? The big bang must be super incorrect cause the theory has to be fixed every couple years.
"Lol, your debating skills are absurd. How can you say we don't have one? We've already explained it to you." No, your memory skills are those of an eighty year old man with Alzheimer's, you said you do not have one, my question was, where did matter and "the energy" originate?
And the Bible based on guess based nothing? No, it is the accounts and revelations of many men and women, based on fact.
Last time I checked, science was a guess and check thing.
Specifically educated guess and step by step checking.

You might want to get things straightened out before posting.

 

[Aesir]

John: Sciences doesn't point to god at all, science is a system of understanding. Scientists Think, Hypothesize Test, and create theory's backed with evidence.

Coming to a conclusion that "god did it" isn't science. you haven't solved the problem, or answered the question as to why things are the way they are. If we followed that mentality we would still think the universe ends with Pluto.

One thing I'd like to point out from this quote;

science points to God, just look around you at things that could not have arisen by chance, it is as obvious as the thing on your face being your nose.

This doesn't point to god anymore then then surviving a natural disaster points to god. Simply put we exist today because of random natural chances that occured. We're simply the by-product of those chances.

 

[RDK]

John, your inconsistencies are astounding.

Again, when there is no answer, and someone steps up with theirs, then an answer has been submitted, and it is foolish to say their is not one.

I never said there wasn't a possible answer, I said your answer is stupid and foolish compared to the real answer.

And again, science points to God, just look around you at things that could not have arisen by chance, it is as obvious as the thing on your face being your nose.

The fact that I have a nose does not mean God exists; it means the nose is a product of evolution taking its course.

Also, evolution is anything but chance. Please do some research to save yourself from looking like a complete and utter moron.

Ever hear of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Bible is virtually unchanged over the course of thousands of years, we would have corrected any faults we found.

....so it's unchanged, yet you somehow had to / would have corrected the faults within it? You're contradicting yourself.

Also, I was not the one who assumed i know everything you and derek.haines were saying that you know there is no answer because you have not found it.

Yes there is an answer: the Big Bang. And I never claimed to know everything, I don't know where you got that from.

You say because i have an answer it is not automatically correct? The big bang must be super incorrect cause the theory has to be fixed every couple years.

Of course scientific theories have to be fixed as our understanding grows. That's the epitome of science. How is it super-incorrect if we change it as we discover that the old version is wrong and the new one is right? You're not making sense AGAIN.

my question was, where did matter and "the energy" originate?

I don't know, and neither do you.

Last time I checked, science was a guess and check thing.
Specifically educated guess and step by step checking.

No, science is checking and making statements based on those observations. So yes, guessing and checking.

What's Christianity? Just guessing with no checking.

 

[snex]

the theists in this thread keep on asserting that god created matter, but assertions are useless in a debate. show us your EVIDENCE that god created anything. show us your EVIDENCE that any gods exist.

if you cant do that, then youre just being dishonest by trying to sneak bull**** by us. it would be no different from trying to claim the flying spaghetti monster did it. your claims carry the exact same weight as that until you have EVIDENCE.

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

Another protip: "The Bible said so" is not a valid argument, which is what so much of your posts boil down to. "I know that God created matter because it says so in the Bible!" first requires us to agree that the Bible is infallible, which we have no reason to do so; how, so long as we abide by the rules of logic, can we accept something as proof which is itself lacking proof?

And like snex said, you're just patently asserting that God created the universe, and that this explains everything. It's one thing to claim to have a model/explanation of the universe's workings, but it's quite another to show that this model actually corresponds to reality.

What you've done is entirely the first, and none of the second.

 

[AltF4]

Wow! I suppose it's nice to have some activity in the Debate Hall for once. On the other hand I'd like to take a moment to explain something to all the new people here. Something that is of the utmost importance:


Intellectual Honesty: Do not pretend to know more than you do. If you are not an expert in a particular field, let it be known. Do not try to mask the fact that you do not know everything. I, for example, happen to be a Computer Scientist / Mathematician. In the course of my studies I've picked up a lot of Physics as well. However, I am not a Physics major. Anyone around here who IS likely knows more about it than me. I am freely willing to accept that. I also know only the basics about Chemistry and Biology. There are plenty of people around here who know much more about it than I.

Because I'm intellectually honest. I do not go around pretending to be intimately familiar with things I am not.


So when I see things posted like "Evolution is just a theory", "The big bang is just a theory", "______ theory takes faith too", or a myriad of the other comments that were just posted, it makes me cringe.

All you are doing is demonstrating clear as day that you:

1) Do not understand in the least bit about what you're talking about.
and
2) Are just trying to trick those below your level of intellect by sounding smarter than you are.


You are not fooling anybody.


Now, then... I'm not really sure where to begin....

i have a question that I want answered!

Where matter came from, how did it come into existence?

So please, explain where matter came from without God, please try.
I am saying this, all this matter around us, once it did not exist, and how did it come into existence?
Was it spontaneous, did it just come out of nowhere somehow, just like how the newspapers do in the morning.
Or did some powerful being bring it into existence?

This is a common question. The problem in your reasoning is assuming that the universe had a creation. Why must everything that exists have been created? There is nothing that necessitates this assumption. It is perfectly possible that the universe just exists, and was never created. Thus we have no need for a "creator".

well, assuming this is fine but you must remember that it is still an assumption.

no, i'm really not.

oh, and i'm curious about the studies you have on there being no creation point (purely out of curiosity though; i'm not really arguing for creation here).

but like i said, the big bang is a lot like evolution; it isn't meant to explain the beginning but rather the progression.

Just as I suspected, you're just arguing a matter of semantics. Look at it this way: When someone says they're doing a report on the Kennedy assassination, they are not just talking about the actual moment the trigger was pulled. They are studying the time afterward as well. There is more to the subject of the Kennedy assassination than just the moment the trigger was pulled.

When I (or others) say that the big bang concerns the origin of the universe, they are not wrong. Big Bang theory concerns the origin of the universe as well as the time immediately following it. To say that the Bing Bang is not concerned with the origin of the universe at all is completely false.

I am not some bible thumper trying to discredit the work of scientists by somehow asserting that their work deals with the origin of the universe.

Something like 30% of Americans think...

Don't throw random statistics around without any sort of support. Come on.

What research can encompass that which isn't completely physical, Alt?

Wouldn't a creation timetable look something like : super-natural occurence ( motives taking action); then physical existence ( result)?

I'd love to see how scientists can validly explain how they could know this one way or the other.

What isn't completely physical? Can you even explain to me what it means to be not physical?

Anyway, no. A creation timetable would not look like that. That is why you're having a tough time with this topic. Stop trying to rationalize what you think you already know.

We can study this sort of thing directly. Space and time are not separate. They are one entity called spacetime. We can measure the curvature of space using fairly basic methods. (Try googleing this for more info) And from that we can also see the curvature of time. Depending on how it is curved, the we can make claims about its origin. (Or lack-thereof, as it were)

 

[Crimson King]

RDK, last warning. You post a signature again; you are banned from the room.

 

[RDK]

RDK, last warning. You post a signature again; you are banned from the room.

Isn't there a way to make it so it's not possible to post sigs in the Debate Hall? It was an honest accident.

 

[Crimson King]

I've been trying for a while to get it to happen, until then, be more cautious. You are one of the few who does it constantly.

As for John, well, your bible is a heavily edited book. The first and oldest gospel was written some 30 - 40 (Mark, c. 70 CE) years after Jesus died. The last book was written well after that. On top of this, the Vatican chose which texts it wanted in the bible. If you believe the Vatican has no power, as many non-Catholic Christians do, then you believe in a book created by liars. The Gnostic bibles were omitted for no clear cut reason, but most of them have a clear cut theme - Jesus was either a married man, or he did what he had to do to fulfill the prophesies, as documented by the Gospel of Judas, Jesus asked him to betray him. The original document was carbon dated to 280 CE give or take 60 years. Fact is, this stuff is omitted because it does not fit their teachings. Religion does not like to bend to new discoveries. In the historical and scientific world, these were some of the greatest findings ever because they confirmed Jesus was a real teacher and explained him in a logical and accepting way. Science likes to learn; Religion likes to control.

 

[Chaco]

I've been trying for a while to get it to happen, until then, be more cautious. You are one of the few who does it constantly.

As for John, well, your bible is a heavily edited book. The first and oldest gospel was written some 30 - 40 (Mark, c. 70 CE) years after Jesus died. The last book was written well after that. On top of this, the Vatican chose which texts it wanted in the bible. If you believe the Vatican has no power, as many non-Catholic Christians do, then you believe in a book created by liars. The Gnostic bibles were omitted for no clear cut reason, but most of them have a clear cut theme - Jesus was either a married man, or he did what he had to do to fulfill the prophesies, as documented by the Gospel of Judas, Jesus asked him to betray him. The original document was carbon dated to 280 CE give or take 60 years. Fact is, this stuff is omitted because it does not fit their teachings. Religion does not like to bend to new discoveries. In the historical and scientific world, these were some of the greatest findings ever because they confirmed Jesus was a real teacher and explained him in a logical and accepting way. Science likes to learn; Religion likes to control.

Well, the reason they are rejected is because they are too late to be written by the purported authors. They rely heavily on the stories in the existing gospels, and they contradict the beliefs taught in the orthodox gospels.

Crimson King, you are correct with your statement "Science likes to learn; Religion likes to control." But, this was before the reforms. What you speak of, is what was known as the Catholic Church before the schism, into Eastern and Western Orthodox, also known as the Roman Catholic Church.

And as Alt said, I will be honest I am no expert on this matter.