Houston Thread - No HOBOs and no WHOBOs. What do we do now??????????????????????????????????????????

[Xyro77]

yea i support it too. kill the bad guy=bad guy never doing harm again.

 

[z00ted]

It's definitely stupid economically and arguably ethically, but I won't get into it.
Especially when considering the off chance that an innocent man dies.

That alone makes it not worth it.
"Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" is not colligated with death under Christianity, btw.

Just my opinion, don't kill me.

 

[Xyro77]

It's definitely stupid economically and arguably ethically, but I won't get into it.
Especially when considering the off chance that an innocent man dies.

That alone makes it not worth it.
"Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" is not colligated with death under Christianity, btw.

Just my opinion, don't kill me.

Ive read a few articles saying death penalty cost more but each and every article NEVER compares apples to apples. On top of that, each and every one is written by an anti death penalty group/author so i def question its legitimacy due to bias.





I find it to be IMPOSSIBLE for the death penalty to be more expensive. Here is a realistic example that happens literally every day.





2 men go to jail for killing 3 babies by throwing them into a volcano.

1st man gets multiple life sentences. A life sentence is 99 years. Hes 20 years old btw.

2nd man get the death sentence. Hes 20 years old.

both have shots at appeals but all are denied.

average wait time for death penalty is between 10-20 years.

2nd man dies at the latest by the age of 40.

1st man ends up dying around what? 60-70(assuming bad health)? 80-90(assuming great health)?

Now tell me how an extra 20-30 years of jail time for the 1st man is LESS expensive than the 2nd man dying 20-30 years earlier? This is why i question the articles as well as the methods used to determine whats more economically efficient.





also, i dont care about religion in this particular debate. And the chance of an innocent man dying is VERY MUCH lower than the chance of an innocent man spending the rest of his life in jail.

 

[z00ted]

It's the legal process of keeping the murderer alive that costs more.

They want to make sure that he's truly GUILTY of what he's done and legal documentation provides tons and tons of representation through people are experts in investigation, mitigation specialists, and psychological stuff. Plus murder cases cost more than anyone who won't get killed because it's obviously going to attract more attention and people will try to appeal it. Every man is given an appeal process under the constitution and are guaranteed two attorneys under law instead of one since they are obviously being tried on murder and will never see the light of day again. Higher security has to be placed on these criminals because of them being crazy, not wanting to live, killing themselves, blah blah pacifist liberal democratic tree hugger crap.

Like you said, they're guaranteed to be alive for ten to twenty years even AFTER being sentenced to the death penalty. So many cases get turned/flipped because of civil rights, appeals, etc. Even if they are killed it costs so much to "legally" kill a human being under what is morally correct by law. Criminals get their last dinner and burial, all that jazz.

It's not so much the case of death penalty costing more.. it's the fact that the death penalty costs more because we try to avoid the chance of an innocent man being killed. The heart and conscious of men are what spike the death penalty up so much, which is ironic because that's what sends them there in the first place.

Since the death penalty has been put in place in 1976, there have been 8 cases out of 1,300 that STRONGLY hinted the person was innocent (after they died). And on top of that 144 have walked off after being proved innocent.

I'd much rather have a guilty man locked up, have it cost 3x less than the death process, and a clear conscious of knowing that an innocent man isn't dead than some sense of justice or revenge.

The cost is inevitable unless we throw away tons of morals that the judicial process was built upon.
Or just simply kill them on the spot.

 

[Xyro77]

They want to make sure that he's truly GUILTY of what he's done and legal documentation provides tons and tons of representation through people are experts in investigation, mitigation specialists, and psychological stuff. Plus murder cases cost more than anyone who won't get killed because it's obviously going to attract more attention and people will try to appeal it. Every man is given an appeal process under the constitution and are guaranteed two attorneys under law instead of one since they are obviously being tried on murder and will never see the light of day again. Higher security has to be placed on these criminals because

Are you saying ONLY the death row man gets this^? Because if so...that is simply untrue. Life sentence man gets all of this as well. Look at Charles Manson, he could have been killed off over 3 decades ago but because the death penalty was abolished in his state pretty much right after he got the :death sentence", hes STILL living and has gone through 11 parole hearings number 12 will be in 2012. Not only is he eating up tax money for the multiple decades hes been alive, hes also eating MORE money through parole hearings.

Also, life sentences helps cause over crowding which in turn allows more criminals to NOT go to jail and thus causing more economical damage to society because they are still free to roam the streets.

So again i ask how does a life sentence man living an extra 20-30 years with the same legal/law privileges cost LESS than the dude who got the death sentence and died 20-30 years back.

Like you said, they're guaranteed to be alive for ten to twenty years even AFTER being sentenced to the death penalty. So many cases get turned/flipped because of civil rights, appeals, etc. Even if they are killed it costs so much to "legally" kill a human being under what is morally correct by law.

again, you get death sentence in 1980. you will prob die in 2000 or earlier. while the life sentence man who got his sentence in 1980 could live until 2020. both are eating up legal fees/document fees/appeal fees/parol fees....ect. The actual lethal injection shot isn't that expensive iirc either.

Criminals get their last dinner and burial, all that jazz.

They cancelled the "last meal" deal because of this A-hole. its kinda funny

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-201_162-20110351.html

It's not so much the case of death penalty costing more.. it's the fact that the death penalty costs more because we try to avoid the chance of an innocent man being killed. The heart and conscious of men are what spike the death penalty up so much, which is ironic because that's what sends them there in the first place.

uhh what? this BS can be applied to setting people free even though every one in the damn room knows he/she guilty. See OJ Simpson or Casey Anthony for 2 quick examples.

Since the death penalty has been put in place in 1976, there have been 8 cases out of 1,300 that STRONGLY hinted the person was innocent (after they died). And on top of that 144 have walked off after being proved innocent.

ONLY 152 out of 1300? People slip under the cracks(152) but as a whole that is some damn accurate killings(1148).

I'd much rather have a guilty man locked up, have it cost 3x less than the death process, and a clear conscious of knowing that an innocent man isn't dead than some sense of justice or revenge.

To each his own i guess. but again, the math doesnt add up.

The cost is inevitable unless we throw away tons of morals that the judicial process was built upon.

The judicial process is a JOKE. What it was "built upon" and what it is NOW is COMPLETELY different.

 

[z00ted]

I'm not an expert on this, I just know a little about it.

Click this: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty#financialfacts

Should help you a little more.
It's crazy, I'll try to find arguments saying they're wrong.. but it's hard to find any.

You can also read the pros and cons of this:

http://deathpenalty.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=001000

 

[Xyro77]

I'm not an expert on this, I just know a little about it.
Click this: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty#financialfacts

Should help you a little more.
It's crazy, I'll try to find arguments saying they're wrong.. but it's hard to find any.

already saw this many times since 2003(it keeps updating itself which is cool). it does not compare apples to apples.

 

[Xyro77]

You can also read the pros and cons of this:

http://deathpenalty.procon.org/view.answers.php?questionID=001000

i think the site is owned or ran by some guy named Kamy Akhavanz or something. 99% sure hes a lib. libs are against death penalty

 

[z00ted]

The death penalty costs much more than life in prison. Study after study has found that the death penalty is much more expensive than life in prison. Since the stakes are so high, the process is far more complex than for any other kind of criminal case. The largest costs come at the pre-trial and trial stages. The tremendous expenses in a death penalty case apply whether or not the defendant is convicted, let alone sentenced to death.

Examples- trial costs (death penalty and non death penalty cases, California):

People v. Scott Peterson, Death Penalty Trial
$3.2 Million Total
People v. Rex Allen Krebs Death Penalty Trial
$2.8 Million Total
People v. Cary Stayner, Death Penalty Trial
$2.368 Million Total
People v. Robert Wigley, Non-Death Penalty Trial
$454,000 Total
This data is for cases where the best records have been kept.

Some factors:
• more pre-trial time will be needed to prepare: cases typically take a year to come to trial
• more pre-trial motions filed and answered
• more experts will be hired
• twice as many attorneys will be appointed for the defense, and a comparable team for the prosecution
• jurors must be individually quizzed on their views about the death penalty, and they are more likely to be sequestered
• two trials instead of one will be conducted: one for guilt and one for punishment
• the trial will be longer: a cost study at Duke University estimated that death penalty trials take 3 to 5 times longer than typical murder trials

The numbers vary from state to state, but they all point in the same direction. From a fairly typical state study of the costs of the death penalty:
“The study counted death penalty case costs through to execution and found that the median death penalty case costs $1.26 million. Non-death penalty cases were counted through to the end of incarceration and were found to have a median cost of $740,000. For death penalty cases, the pre-trial and trial level expenses were the most expensive part, 49% of the total cost. The investigation costs for death-sentence cases were about 3 times greater than for non-death cases. The trial costs for death cases were about 16 times greater than for non-death cases ($508,000 for death case; $32,000 for non-death case).” (Kansas: Performance Audit Report: Costs Incurred for Death Penalty Cases: A K-GOAL Audit of the Department of Corrections)

^found that on yahoo lol

 

[Xyro77]

The death penalty costs much more than life in prison. Study after study has found that the death penalty is much more expensive than life in prison. Since the stakes are so high, the process is far more complex than for any other kind of criminal case. The largest costs come at the pre-trial and trial stages. The tremendous expenses in a death penalty case apply whether or not the defendant is convicted, let alone sentenced to death.

Examples- trial costs (death penalty and non death penalty cases, California):

People v. Scott Peterson, Death Penalty Trial
$3.2 Million Total
People v. Rex Allen Krebs Death Penalty Trial
$2.8 Million Total
People v. Cary Stayner, Death Penalty Trial
$2.368 Million Total
People v. Robert Wigley, Non-Death Penalty Trial
$454,000 Total
This data is for cases where the best records have been kept.

Some factors:
• more pre-trial time will be needed to prepare: cases typically take a year to come to trial
• more pre-trial motions filed and answered
• more experts will be hired
• twice as many attorneys will be appointed for the defense, and a comparable team for the prosecution
• jurors must be individually quizzed on their views about the death penalty, and they are more likely to be sequestered
• two trials instead of one will be conducted: one for guilt and one for punishment
• the trial will be longer: a cost study at Duke University estimated that death penalty trials take 3 to 5 times longer than typical murder trials

The numbers vary from state to state, but they all point in the same direction. From a fairly typical state study of the costs of the death penalty:
“The study counted death penalty case costs through to execution and found that the median death penalty case costs $1.26 million. Non-death penalty cases were counted through to the end of incarceration and were found to have a median cost of $740,000. For death penalty cases, the pre-trial and trial level expenses were the most expensive part, 49% of the total cost. The investigation costs for death-sentence cases were about 3 times greater than for non-death cases. The trial costs for death cases were about 16 times greater than for non-death cases ($508,000 for death case; $32,000 for non-death case).” (Kansas: Performance Audit Report: Costs Incurred for Death Penalty Cases: A K-GOAL Audit of the Department of Corrections)

^found that on yahoo lol

The info above literally says nothing but "deaths sentence costs more" and then throws mass sums like "$3.2 Million Total" and generic statements like "The study counted death penalty case costs through to execution and found that the median death penalty case costs $1.26 million. Non-death penalty cases were counted through to the end of incarceration and were found to have a median cost of $740,000."


Find me year on year comparisons for death row inmates vs life sentence inmates(tax dollar wise) with 20 years on death row vs maximum time on life sentence(lets say hes got bad health and only lives 40 years in there). Give me data on what over crowding (due to jails full of life sentence men) does to the local economy(fiscally, of course).

Just spouting huge averaged lump sum figures and generic stats doesn't prove anything except the authors view(which is anti death penalty). if you look at what i mentioned its literally IMPOSSIBLE for death penalty to cost more.

 

[z00ted]

I can't find all that specific stuff you asked for, but I found something kind of like it.

http://www.deathpenalty.org/article.php?id=42

How about you find me something that proves you're right?
I'd be really surprised if this was all some big conspiracy and every single site I go to is lying.

 

[Xyro77]

Gimmi a sec

I'm drivin Trela to work

 

[Zano]

what kind of work does a boy that young do this late at night?


oh dear...

 

[Gea]

Nah, you're correct. The death penalty is more expensive because of all of the judicial red tape in place to protect innocents from bad trials.

In a perfect world it would be far less expensive, but humanitarianism and cases of unfair trials and witch hunts ruined it for everyone, even cut and dry cases.

 

[Tesh]

I'm all for the death penalty when you can be 100% certain the person is guilty of something truly horrific. Its a real shame that tax dollars are spent containing, feeding and medicating people that have done nothing but harm to society.

Also the world isn't becoming a worse place or anything. Improved technology just makes sure that we can get horror stories in terrifying detail from across the world all the time now.

 

[Xyro77]

I'd be really surprised if this was all some big conspiracy and every single site I go to is lying

Its not a conspiracy. Like 90% of all written (paper,magazines)/digital (internet)/televised (tv) media is liberal and thus the chances of these articles being bias in favor of liberal values (anti death penalty) is very high. Im not saying its all lies(well in a way i kinda am) but i can guarantee you the numbers and statements are worded the way they are for a reason LOL.

I can't find all that specific stuff you asked for, but I found something kind of like it.

http://www.deathpenalty.org/article.php?id=42

This are just large figures based off of generics. Im willing to bet these numbers^ are based off of a dude serving 20 years(or any number) on death row vs another dude who served the SAME time as the dude above but on life sentence. Im looking for year by year comparisons of LS(life sentence) vs DR(death row).

Literally a DR serving 20 years vs a LS serving 50 years PLUS court costs for both.

Then there is another factor ill address below v v v v v v v v

How about you find me something that proves you're right?

Remember the story i told a while back about how only XYRO was robbed when people broke into my house while we evacuated from the hurricane? Well when the cop came over to interview me about my stolen electronics (2 DS's, 2-3 DS games, 9-11 GCN games, 2 swords, 2-3 controllers) he told me the night before the hurricane hit he and his partner pulled over a suspicious kid carrying a big bulky back pack. They looked inside and saw a bunch of random electronics and asked him what was he doing walking the streets at 2am(past curfew btw). They talked to him for a bit and let him go. The cop told me he might have seen some games in the bag but he doesnt remember exactly. I asked the cop WHY he let the kid go and/or why he let the kid keep the loot that and the cop said that all of the Galveston jails were emptied out into Santa fe/Alvin/Hitchcok jails because of the storm approaching and they didn't have space for him.



THIS^ is called over crowding and it happens on an even larger scale all across america each day (the kid got away with like 700-800$ worth in items...now picture this on a bigger scale all across america). I bring "over crowding" up because while all these Joe Bobs are serving his LS's, all the Bill Moe's cant go to jail because there isn't any room so they are set free. Now tell me, all these Bill Moe's can cause vehicular accidents, can steal, can vandalize, can kill....ect (all of which cost loads of money to the local and/or state economy) and "get away with it" or receive a slap on the wrist/probation all because the Joe Bob's on LS are hogging cell block D for the next 40 years.

So add LS man who servers 40 years

Now add his court costs for those 40 years(appeals too)\

Now add in the figure of the Bill Moe's who never got jail time and are continuing to do fiscal damage to the local/state economy.



My Sociology teacher was previously in the Texas criminal justice system for 15 years as one of their staticians that calculated lots of numbers in regards to things like DUIs, DWIs, suicides and other crimes. However, he openly admits there is next to ZERO data concerning what i mentioned above because of 2 reasons.

1. They (the criminal justice system as a whole) have not determined a scale on which to grade what a potential inmate(who never gets incarcerated due to over crowding) would cost a society due to his various crimes and the various fical damage it may or may not cause. He does conclude (based off of what research hes done with his numbers) that it EASILY out weighs the cost of a full DR sentence as well as the over crowding aspect added onto the DR sentence, its just a matter of HOW much.

2. Though the justice system pays out more for LS than DR, it makes a TON of money off of jail time/LS's. Think about it, if a crime that resulted in simple jail time was switched into a punishment by losing a hand/leg/eye instantly and a major crime that results in a LS was switched into losing your life instantly....crime will pretty much dry up and the police force/justice system would not be needed and/or would be a hell of a lot smaller. The point hes making is that the justice system NEEDS LS's and small jail time in hopes that they will get out(its easier to get off a LS than a DR) and be a repeat offenders(iirc, if u go to jail once u are more likely to offend again rather than be clean) which also keeps cops employed....ect.








TLDR;



at most a DR will spend 10-20 years behind bars

costing=DR taxes + court costs + damages of over crowding due to DR's for 10-20 years.

while a LS will spend 30-40(maybe even 50) years behind bars.

costing=LS taxes + court costs + damages of over crowding due to LS's for 30-40(maybe even 50) years

thats an extra 20-30 years of LS taxes + court costs + damages of over crowding due to LS's

 

[Gea]

Crime very much still exists in countries that lop off bodyparts as part of the judicial process.

 

[Xyro77]

Crime very much still exists in countries that lop off bodyparts as part of the judicial process.

.....................and?


i didnt say it 100% stops crime

 

[Gea]

I know asking you to read what is linked to you is asking a lot, but your points about them being unfairly compared is taken into account. That is just one state, and not Texas, mind you, but the linked report clearly states that it would be cheaper even if the inmate died of old age via life imprisonment. You're really underestimating the judicial costs and costs of specialized containment for people put on death row. While it it certainly true that the death penalty could likely be streamlined to be cheaper, it is not currently that way. This study was done in a public prison, meaning it runs off of government (taxpayer) money.

Here are some pretty good snippets that may help explain some of the differences in cost to you

Death-penalty trials take an average of two years from arraignment to verdict-- three times longer than other murder cases. The longer the case, the more margin for error and grounds for appeal.

Dealth-penalty trials cost an average of six times more than other murder trials-- $592,500 compared to $93,000, based on an analysis of average daily court costs. (note: this does not cover any appeals)

Additionally, each year [that] state spends an extra $2.8 million for special housing of death-row inmates, another $1.8 million to prosecute death row inmates on appeal, and yet another $7.6 million depending condemned prisoners on appeal. This doesn't include the cost of federal appeals. "The first federal appear and the first habeas corpus petition consume an average of 1,000 hours of attorney time, or $75,000 to the taxpayers"

 

[Xyro77]

I know asking you to read what is linked to you is asking a lot, but your points about them being unfairly compared is taken into account. That is just one state, and not Texas, mind you, but the linked report clearly states that it would be cheaper even if the inmate died of old age via life imprisonment. You're really underestimating the judicial costs and costs of specialized containment for people put on death row. While it it certainly true that the death penalty could likely be streamlined to be cheaper, it is not currently that way. This study was done in a public prison, meaning it runs off of government (taxpayer) money.

i read it dude. maybe i missed it but i didnt see anything where it gave specific ages and specific time spent. it just gave generics. the data im requesting is extremely important.

if a guy goes in at 55 and dies 15 years later is one thing

if a guy goes in at 20 and dies 50 years later is another

 

[Gea]

The dude not on death row has a looooot of years to put in to break even with the guy on death row. This is assuming the guy not on death row is never put to work.

 

[Xyro77]

The dude not on death row has a looooot of years to put in to break even with the guy on death row. This is assuming the guy not on death row is never put to work.

DR or LS u can get jobs in the jail system. Ive seen PLENTY of vids on that.

Also, and extra 40 years isnt breaking even, its DEMOLISHING. Then combine all of that with the over crowding **** i talked about earlier. Thats 40 years of who knows how much damage was caused due to over crowding. Again, its numbers we dont have yet but its clear (at least according to one expert who i met that worked there for 15 years) that it def out weights DR+over crowding. besides, it makes sense given the experience ive had(hurricane thing).

 

[Xyro77]

oh and this is the kind of stuff im interested in.

The average daily cost of incarceration for the Department of Correction, per inmate, is approximately $95.16 per inmate.

this is in Connecticut.

 

[Xyro77]

Also the world isn't becoming a worse place or anything. Improved technology just makes sure that we can get horror stories in terrifying detail from across the world all the time now.

Every single human being 25 years older than me that ive talked to in my entire life disagrees with you 110%.

**** IS getting worse.

 

[Xyro77]

*resumes nightly duties*




Masahiro Sakurai's PS3 crashes, costing him nearly two decades' worth of save data


http://www.theverge.com/gaming/2012...ashes-costing-him-nearly-two-decades-worth-of

 

[Xyro77]

http://i1.dealtwith.it/i/n/8a3d37b37f78c6bbdcb8a43c8c7f13f0/chillowl.jpg

 

[Xyro77]

OMFG THE FULL GEN 6 POKEMON LIST HAS BEEN REVEALED

 

[Xyro77]

 

[Xyro77]

 

[Xyro77]

 

[Xyro77]

 

[Tesh]

Every single human being 25 years older than me that ive talked to in my entire life disagrees with you 110%.

**** IS getting worse.

You mean those people that didn't grow up with internet? Which is exactly where I always hear about these horrible things? People that don't grow up with the opportunity to even know about these things probably are more shocked by this type of thing.

Imagine hundreds of years ago, where you wouldn't even know about the horrible things that may or may not have happened in the next town/village over. The world might not seem like a very bad place when there has only been 1 brutal ****/ killing in the past 5 years (as far as you know).

Its a horrible thing to think about, but do you think people didn't ****, torture and kill people more often when no one would ever know about it? Maybe people are getting worse, but I think its....just as i said. Far more publicity for every shocking thing you could imagine.

 

[Xyro77]

You mean those people that didn't grow up with internet? Which is exactly where I always hear about these horrible things? People that don't grow up with the opportunity to even know about these things probably are more shocked by this type of thing.

Imagine hundreds of years ago, where you wouldn't even know about the horrible things that may or may not have happened in the next town/village over. The world might not seem like a very bad place when there has only been 1 brutal ****/ killing in the past 5 years (as far as you know).

Its a horrible thing to think about, but do you think people didn't ****, torture and kill people more often when no one would ever know about it? Maybe people are getting worse, but I think its....just as i said. Far more publicity for every shocking thing you could imagine.

No. im talking about people who have been around for an extra quarter of a decade and have seen things deteriorate. I can not count the number of times ive talked to older adults and they tell me about how horrible their street has turned out. Whether is kids doing bad stuff or just plain drug/drunk people doing bad things on their street, its increased a lot. This is why if u ask ANY adult who is 50 or older if they would sleep with their windows open and doors unlocked when they were a little kid they would say yes. Ask them if they would do it now.....not a 1 would say yes. This isn't because of tv/internet, its because they see the world(from their perspective/their house/their neighborhood) get increasingly worse.


Hell, in my own life i now see many many 12 and 13 year olds getting preg on like a monthly basis in the city i live in. Ive also never seen as much drug use/cig smoking in the middle school(6th-8th) aged kids as i am seeing now. that **** was unheard of or at least rare when i was that age. This isnt internet talking, im literally watching this unfold in front of my eyes.

Though you are a new gen, i guarantee you will see these changes unfold in front of your eyes as u get older.

 

[Good Ol' Tree]

My step-mom lived next to an asylum and would have never left either her windows or doors unlocked.

CASE CLOSED!

 

[Xyro77]

I'm talking about normal people. Not freaks who want to live next to insanityville

 

[Good Ol' Tree]

It's when she was a kid.

 

[Xyro77]

......so? Are you saying she didnt have a choice where she lived? THATS BULL CORN! If Peter Pan can choose, so can she.

 

[Thebest1pj]

We literally died at the exact same time(the timer said we died on the same second) but it gave him the win.

ggs mah doo doo dude

 

[Gea]

Allan, it's a few years old, but...

Life isn't getting worse. Pretty much everything there still applies to today. People have been saying the world is getting less safe/ going down the crapper since the dawn of time. People selectively remember all sorts of incorrect crap, or ignore why something is the way it is.

Quit acting like you're some old fart who has watched the world burn. You aren't even 30 yet.

 

[Xyro77]

Allan, it's a few years old, but...

Life isn't getting worse. Pretty much everything there still applies to today. People have been saying the world is getting less safe/ going down the crapper since the dawn of time. People selectively remember all sorts of incorrect crap, or ignore why something is the way it is.

Quit acting like you're some old fart who has watched the world burn. You aren't even 30 yet.

Nice so u give me a SEVEN YEAR OLD link to some guy saying life isnt getting worse cause hey "crime is down" and hey "even poor people have houses/cars" and other blanket statements like that. Is an article like that all u need to make u believe in something? LOL


Anyways, this has literally has nothing to do with what ive seen with my OWN EYES in the few short years ive been alive.

also, Im not old and im not acting old so stop incorrectly assuming.