AvoiD
Smash Lord
I name search but I get disappointed often.
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Houston Smash Ultimate Thread
- Thread starter Xyro77
- Start date
Xyro77
Unity Ruleset Committee Member
I name search 1 time a week.
I'm not as passionate about my controversial views these days so I barely see my named trashed anymore
I'm not as passionate about my controversial views these days so I barely see my named trashed anymore
Last edited:
RageToast
Smash Cadet
Probably unrelated but who all is going to the Symphony of the Goddesses performances? I'm going to the one in Austin and if anyone else is going I wanna host a little hotel room tourney.
RT
Smash Hero
You should try searching Hobo 12 more often.I name search 1 time a week.
I'm not as passionate about my controversial views these days so I barely see my named trashed anymore
Dabuz
Fraud at Smash
Krebs
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2014
- Messages
- 215
I dig that there is at least a conversation about customs. Of course supporting it is out of the question...
But many players like myself ARE going to Evo. And I WILL practice up for it. Custom Shulk is too amazing and fun to pass on the opportunity. We're starting to run 3 stock 8 min custom matches at my apartment. Its fun.
Shoutouts to @Trela for putting me on that "me vs gnes" pic LMAO
But many players like myself ARE going to Evo. And I WILL practice up for it. Custom Shulk is too amazing and fun to pass on the opportunity. We're starting to run 3 stock 8 min custom matches at my apartment. Its fun.
Shoutouts to @Trela for putting me on that "me vs gnes" pic LMAO
Krebs
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2014
- Messages
- 215
If that is what it takes, fine. I will even be one of those players using the max potential of my characters. Vanilla villager is like playing a nerfed version of one of my favorite characters.
As far as what people will say about how I play... All I gotta say is, there will be haters.
Fliphopper
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2007
- Messages
- 1,657
I don't like the custom set they gave Diddy. Well, time to unlock them all and see what I can come up with.
RT
Smash Hero
It's a shame custom moves created this sort of strange logic. Your character is already complete as is before custom moves.
Because of how custom moves were designed to be gradually unlocked over time, I always thought they would be treated as a for fun type of thing like items. Boy, did I underestimate this community...
Custom moves were designed to be an extra fun thing imo. They were never meant to be taken seriously, at least from what Sakurai has stated. Hell, they're not even allowed online when playing with randoms, only when you create a room and play with friends (going with the theme that they are for goofing off with friends).
I was down for it going either way, but seeing how dumb they can make certain things despite claims they would make things more interesting...you don't fight dumb **** like hoohah or Villager camping by allowing more dumb **** like Mii Brawler early kills. You just create more problems and let the other ones stay there or god forbid, get worse.
This is all my opinion. I just don't want this game to somehow become a bigger mess or campfest. **** like that would make me and other people just quit, just like with Brawl. I don't want to see be negative, but this community has proven itself to be bad at making good decisions.
Last edited:
Krebs
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2014
- Messages
- 215
Too janky for what I want to do. I want real practice. I figure i'll switch it to 2 stock 5 min as the date comes closer, but the main goal now is to train up my custom game.Probably just like the first time they got upaired by diddy kong.
I already know this community is going to react poorly to customs.
@Krebs why not run EVO ruleset if you intend to practice for it? 2 stock 5 minutes?
In any fighting game I have ever played, none of the characters I have enjoyed have been "top tier" or "amazing". For the first time I like two awesome characters AND they are really good with customs.
Also villager is NOT complete without customs imo. Tree is practically useless, pocket has no utility on a majority of the cast. The custom pocket and tree remedy these issues. Gives villager a full toolset.
Last edited:
RT
Smash Hero
So if customs never have existed, would you have stopped enjoying them as much? Like, would you even care if customs never existed?
A lot of this same reasoning can be applied to a good majority of the cast, with or without customs. This is why tiers exist in the first place. Hell, there were plenty of useless moves in Melee and Brawl. This happens in all fighting games as well. This shouldn't be a reason to justify their legality if they create more problems than they solve. For that same reasoning, why not allow Final Smashes? You are also limiting a character's potential by not allowing them.
I enjoy discussions like these. I want to genuinely understand both sides of an argument.
Last edited:
frcShoryuken
Smash Cadet
I don't get how so many people can be so dismissive of the custom moves without even giving them a chance. Let them come out to play and see how things pan out over time. The game is still practically brand new with TONS of undiscovered things. Sure things might seem OP right off the bat, but typically in fighting games people learn how to deal with various strategies and adapt their gameplay. That's how fighting games evolve and it's always been the natural progression.
Two greatly simplified examples (one will most definitely date myself, lol):
Back in the early days of competitive Marvel vs Capcom 2, Blackheart was on basically everyone's team because of how good he was at that point in time. He could fill the screen with projectiles, built tons of meter safely, and did great chip damage using said meter. Eventually, players discovered Cable could counter pretty much everything Blackheart did. As time went on, Blackheart got left behind due to the game evolving.
Other example is Wesker from Marvel vs Capcom 3. Almost the same thing as Blackheart. He was heavily used because he could dish out damage, had great moves, had some tricky mixups, high health, etc. Same outcome as before... eventually people found holes in his gameplay, adapted their style to deal with him, and he eventually became obsolete and not played that often
My point is basically to give customs a shot and see what happens. I think players should be allowed to try and discover new things, push the envelope with new tactics, and let the metagame flesh itself out. Judging from previous experience with fighting games, I think it's awesome to see how things begin and how the games evolve over time from the early days
Thanks for your time ^_^
Two greatly simplified examples (one will most definitely date myself, lol):
Back in the early days of competitive Marvel vs Capcom 2, Blackheart was on basically everyone's team because of how good he was at that point in time. He could fill the screen with projectiles, built tons of meter safely, and did great chip damage using said meter. Eventually, players discovered Cable could counter pretty much everything Blackheart did. As time went on, Blackheart got left behind due to the game evolving.
Other example is Wesker from Marvel vs Capcom 3. Almost the same thing as Blackheart. He was heavily used because he could dish out damage, had great moves, had some tricky mixups, high health, etc. Same outcome as before... eventually people found holes in his gameplay, adapted their style to deal with him, and he eventually became obsolete and not played that often
My point is basically to give customs a shot and see what happens. I think players should be allowed to try and discover new things, push the envelope with new tactics, and let the metagame flesh itself out. Judging from previous experience with fighting games, I think it's awesome to see how things begin and how the games evolve over time from the early days
Thanks for your time ^_^
Teshie U
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2013
- Messages
- 1,594
I think its far too convenient that people want to take Sakurai's words (often poorly translated and misinterpreted) as law when he has stated that the entire game shouldn't be taken so seriously.
If For Glory is your authority on whats truly competitively viable, we should only be playing on FD. For Glory is designed for simplicity for people to pick up and play with little to no setup time. Originally optimized for a handheld, where a quick and simple match was the most ideal thing. For Glory isn't a reason to run FD only, or 2 stock 5 minutes or customs off.
Sakurai's intent for this as a party game has nothing to do with competitive play or this community's rulesets.
If Sakurai came out and said "I put custom moves in to make the game more balanced and competitive" there would still be no reason to take that seriously for our purposes.
Watching people repeatedly run into villagers traps was more entertaining that watching diddy kong rolling around.
^Above post, yea I'm all for giving things a chance. I'm not going to pretend everything about customs is ideal, but I'm also not going to pretend I know which meta is better or will be better months from now.
I agree with you entirely, especially the underlined portion. I am struggling with the notion that achievement-based unlockables are being used in national tournament play. That **** is foreign to me coming from other competitive gaming communities.
I saw this (shortened) post on ADHD's custom-related thread on the competitive forum:
If this game transitions into super-moveset bros, I'll quit attending tournaments and go back to being a casual once again. I have 0 desire to play with customs and I wish the community would divert its attention towards developing the game with (semi) new mechanics instead of debating over/testing customs. I subscribe to the ideology that customs are going to create a very linear and stale meta where low-tier characters are viable only through a handful of moves and, subsequently, are heavily dependent on special moves to function properly. Super-special/moveset bros sounds and looks real lame to me but I could be wrong and am curious to see how custom movesets pan out. Regardless, I'll continue to play the mode I find most enjoyable as that enjoyment is what brought me to the competitive scene.
Last edited:
Krebs
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2014
- Messages
- 215
Without customs I would have kept playing these characters for sure, but I would have dropped out of the tournament scene. I only even enter vanilla singles if I believe I can win/place or (rarely) have the cash to blow.
Imo it just seems unfair that characters like diddy can have a full moveset (and way more options) while others are nerfed to having only a handful of useful moves. Like how DK could only really use back air in brawl. WTF.
I'd just like to mention that MKX is following a similar formula and i'll be interested in seeing if the alternate variations of the cast get allowed in tournament.
frcShoryuken
Smash Cadet
(edited for typos)
I would think giving the "low-tier" characters better moves would increase their viability in high level play, which would increase variety of who you see being used. I don't see why you'd WANT to use a sub-optimal setup for a character. Shouldn't all of the characters be using all of their best tools?
Another thing is that different move sets could be used as a style/strategy choice by each individual player. Maybe one player likes playing a particular style, so they pick the best set of moves to fit into that mold. Someone else could play the same character, but have a different move set due to a different strategy they want to use
I would think giving the "low-tier" characters better moves would increase their viability in high level play, which would increase variety of who you see being used. I don't see why you'd WANT to use a sub-optimal setup for a character. Shouldn't all of the characters be using all of their best tools?
Another thing is that different move sets could be used as a style/strategy choice by each individual player. Maybe one player likes playing a particular style, so they pick the best set of moves to fit into that mold. Someone else could play the same character, but have a different move set due to a different strategy they want to use
Last edited:
Teshie U
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2013
- Messages
- 1,594
@
RT
, I also enjoy seeing the different perspectives. People too often lump everyone together like a hive mind, but people have very different reasons for picking a side.
I agree with your sentiments more than Krebs and I think Xyro and Razer are just stubborn and poorly informed.
Alas we should all just be doing what we enjoy. My main problems with this game are with the universal mechanics.
RT
, I also enjoy seeing the different perspectives. People too often lump everyone together like a hive mind, but people have very different reasons for picking a side.I agree with your sentiments more than Krebs and I think Xyro and Razer are just stubborn and poorly informed.
Alas we should all just be doing what we enjoy. My main problems with this game are with the universal mechanics.
RT
Smash Hero
@
frcShoryuken
I will offer the often cited example of MK.
Back when Brawl was still in early days, we were all still innocent and young, people were already winning tournaments with MK. Hell, Hobo 1 was won by someone spamming Tornado and Drill Rush. Eventually people figured out how to plank, scrooge, abuse Shuttle Loop and time out. It eventually got to a point where MK dominated more than 50% of tournament winnings, MK was in a majority of doubles teams, he had no counterpicks (both stage or character-wise) and some characters were rendered nearly unwinnable in the matchup. People dropped out the game or quit their main for MK. People stopped watching Grand Finals, because MK vs MK #32181. It got to a point where no one cared.
A ton of rules were made just to keep MK playable, instead of outright banning. I don't think any other fighting game has put so many restrictions on a character just to keep it legal. This right here is one of the dumbest decisions I have ever experienced. If MK was allowed to play without any restrictions, he would have absolutely KILLED the game immediately. Through some terrible decisions, which may have been biased, he was kept legal through restrictions and he STILL helped kill the metagame.
Tl:dr: We gave MK a chance and it ruined Brawl (not that there was much to save to be fair). He honestly should have been banned after planking was discovered. Or hell, they should have allowed planking, IDC, and scrooging. I can guarantee you there would be a massive call for him to be banned.
There is a similar parallelism with Diddy at the moment. Hopefully things will change on how it is handled, but I doubt it. But if they call for some ******** restriction instead of an outright ban, I will have an aneurysm.
frcShoryuken
I will offer the often cited example of MK.Back when Brawl was still in early days, we were all still innocent and young, people were already winning tournaments with MK. Hell, Hobo 1 was won by someone spamming Tornado and Drill Rush. Eventually people figured out how to plank, scrooge, abuse Shuttle Loop and time out. It eventually got to a point where MK dominated more than 50% of tournament winnings, MK was in a majority of doubles teams, he had no counterpicks (both stage or character-wise) and some characters were rendered nearly unwinnable in the matchup. People dropped out the game or quit their main for MK. People stopped watching Grand Finals, because MK vs MK #32181. It got to a point where no one cared.
A ton of rules were made just to keep MK playable, instead of outright banning. I don't think any other fighting game has put so many restrictions on a character just to keep it legal. This right here is one of the dumbest decisions I have ever experienced. If MK was allowed to play without any restrictions, he would have absolutely KILLED the game immediately. Through some terrible decisions, which may have been biased, he was kept legal through restrictions and he STILL helped kill the metagame.
Tl:dr: We gave MK a chance and it ruined Brawl (not that there was much to save to be fair). He honestly should have been banned after planking was discovered. Or hell, they should have allowed planking, IDC, and scrooging. I can guarantee you there would be a massive call for him to be banned.
There is a similar parallelism with Diddy at the moment. Hopefully things will change on how it is handled, but I doubt it. But if they call for some ******** restriction instead of an outright ban, I will have an aneurysm.
Last edited:
Altering a characters moves for optimal MU strategy sounds more like pokemon than sm4sh to me.
Edit - I acknowledge that's a pretty narrow view but I can't seem to get the comparison out of my head :/
Last edited:
RT
Smash Hero
See, the problem here is you're trying to justify customs being legal by comparing vanilla Diddy with custom moves Villager. They are two separate types of character types BECAUSE of the custom moves. Again, what if custom moves had never existed? Would Villager be "incomplete?"
Also, as far as move pools, they will be unbalanced because characters are designed to be different by design. Of course Mario will not play the same as Marth or Pikachu. They are not designed to play the same, and some move will inherently be more useful or useless. This is what lends itself to game balance and...here it comes, tiers.
Hell, a lot of the Melee cast had useless moves *coughMewtwo* but they were not considered "incomplete" characters, just bad or low tier. So I am curious why with the sudden advent of custom moves, characters can go from being bad to incomplete?
Last edited:
frcShoryuken
Smash Cadet
Fair enough. I'm not as well versed in the Smash Lore. I'm mostly drawing from general fighting game experience. Hopefully everything turns out well in the end@
Back when Brawl was still in early days, we were all still innocent and young, people were already winning tournaments with MK. Hell, Hobo 1 was won by someone spamming Tornado and Drill Rush. Eventually people figured out how to plank, scrooge, abuse Shuttle Loop and time out. It eventually got to a point where MK dominated more than 50% of tournament winnings, MK was in a majority of doubles teams, he had no counterpicks (both stage or character-wise) and some characters were rendered nearly unwinnable in the matchup. People dropped out the game or quit their main for MK. People stopped watching Grand Finals, because MK vs MK #32181. It got to a point where no one cared.
A ton of rules were made just to keep MK playable, instead of outright banning. I don't think any other fighting game has put so many restrictions on a character just to keep it legal. This right here is one of the dumbest decisions I have ever experienced. If MK was allowed to play without any restrictions, he would have absolutely KILLED the game immediately. Through some terrible decisions, which may have been biased, he was kept legal through restrictions and he STILL helped kill the metagame.
Tl:dr: We gave MK a chance and it ruined Brawl (not that there was much to save to be fair). He honestly should have been banned after planking was discovered. Or hell, they should have allowed planking, IDC, and scrooging. I can guarantee you there would be a massive call for him to be banned.
There is a similar parallelism with Diddy at the moment. Hopefully things will change on how it is handled, but I doubt it. But if they call for some ******** restriction instead of an outright ban, I will have an aneurysm.
I guess we just have different opinions on this. It seems like a sound strategy to me. Just like counter-picking with a character or stage
RT
Smash Hero
That's fine, I want you to learn what happened from history. I honestly do think things would have been different if MK was allowed to play with zero restrictions. Too many bad decisions allowed the problem to grow and fester. It's all history now, and hopefully people will learn. But alas, I fear the same mistakes are being made again...
frcShoryuken
Smash Cadet
Fliphopper
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2007
- Messages
- 1,657
Even then, I still don't think Diddy is as broken as people put him out to be. He has flaws in his recovery. Almost a linear set up. People don't gimp him as often as he should be. 9/10 I see most people let Diddy safely get back on the ledge. Challenge him off the ledge. Barrel takes too long to charge to get a good height. He's not herp derp metaknight who can kill early, nearly impossible to gimp, 5 jumps, glide, glide attack cancel. Diddy has Hoo Hah.@
Back when Brawl was still in early days, we were all still innocent and young, people were already winning tournaments with MK. Hell, Hobo 1 was won by someone spamming Tornado and Drill Rush. Eventually people figured out how to plank, scrooge, abuse Shuttle Loop and time out. It eventually got to a point where MK dominated more than 50% of tournament winnings, MK was in a majority of doubles teams, he had no counterpicks (both stage or character-wise) and some characters were rendered nearly unwinnable in the matchup. People dropped out the game or quit their main for MK. People stopped watching Grand Finals, because MK vs MK #32181. It got to a point where no one cared.
A ton of rules were made just to keep MK playable, instead of outright banning. I don't think any other fighting game has put so many restrictions on a character just to keep it legal. This right here is one of the dumbest decisions I have ever experienced. If MK was allowed to play without any restrictions, he would have absolutely KILLED the game immediately. Through some terrible decisions, which may have been biased, he was kept legal through restrictions and he STILL helped kill the metagame.
Tl:dr: We gave MK a chance and it ruined Brawl (not that there was much to save to be fair). He honestly should have been banned after planking was discovered. Or hell, they should have allowed planking, IDC, and scrooging. I can guarantee you there would be a massive call for him to be banned.
There is a similar parallelism with Diddy at the moment. Hopefully things will change on how it is handled, but I doubt it. But if they call for some ******** restriction instead of an outright ban, I will have an aneurysm.
Xyro77
Unity Ruleset Committee Member
So many new gens repeating the same words/mistakes of the old days.
It's like they do zero research or are incapable of putting the game first instead of their personal opinions.
It's like they do zero research or are incapable of putting the game first instead of their personal opinions.
RT
Smash Hero
Again, I would counter this point by saying why are Final Smashes not allowed? They would counter camping, because the encourage people to fight for them AND add a move for every character. Even when turned onto High, it takes a while for one to spawn and a person can have one knocked out of them. Other than their random spawning nature and damage to break one, there is no downside. You know other then the game balance between some.
Last edited:
Zano
Smash Master
Then you have no idea how this game works, whoever you are. Did you name search dark pit or something like wtf
RT
Smash Hero
True, but some characters cannot handle challenging his recovery, sort of like MK in Brawl. By no means am I saying the two are alike, but it all goes back to "Diddy's main weakness is his recovery" just like "MK's biggest weakness is he's light." It doesn't mean anything in most situations unless the player is bad.
frcShoryuken
Smash Cadet
That was the old days though in a different game with different mechanics.... why not give the new stuff they added in this new game with new mechanics a chance at the very least? Just to see what happens. It could very well turn out poorly, but there's no way to know for certain without at least trying it
Fliphopper
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2007
- Messages
- 1,657
RT
Smash Hero
Flip plz
I know, we should ban Hoohah! That's how the Brawl Back Room would have handled it.
And Diddy's still top tier even without it. I've experienced your evil.
Last edited:
I think the point they're trying to make is that they took the exact same approach with MK in Brawl and it effectively destroyed the game's viewership and altered the meta in a not-so-pleasant fashion.
Last edited:
Xyro77
Unity Ruleset Committee Member
Literally the smartest person in the room.
Xyro77
Unity Ruleset Committee Member
Learning from Experience is the most valuable thing in all of smash.
Last edited:
RT
Smash Hero
That would be the main point for what Xyro is trying to do. He won't have his tournament series tainted and is set in his ways. That's fine. Deal with it by calling him a scumbag and constantly mention Hobo 12.
I, however, want to explore and understand both sides in order to make an informed and calculated decision. I want to hear both good and bad reasons, because it helps people the WHY behind a decision. I hate to have a decision be made on terrible judgment and reasoning, especially if the decision can literally kill a community or the metagame. The game is still young, but I don't want it to go down the same path Brawl took. We're still having national problems if 2 or 3 stocks is better!
I, however, want to explore and understand both sides in order to make an informed and calculated decision. I want to hear both good and bad reasons, because it helps people the WHY behind a decision. I hate to have a decision be made on terrible judgment and reasoning, especially if the decision can literally kill a community or the metagame. The game is still young, but I don't want it to go down the same path Brawl took. We're still having national problems if 2 or 3 stocks is better!
Last edited:
RT
Smash Hero
What did you learn from Hobo 12, ya scumbag?
Last edited: