leafgreen386
Dirty camper
However much I love the placebo effect, sometimes it really fricking sucks.
I'm sure you've heard me say a million times that the hitstun equation is:
h = m*l / d
Where H is hitstun in frames, M is the multiplication constant (what we edit), L is the launch speed of the move, and D is a char spec division constant where chars with faster fall accelerations (at least in normal brawl) were given higher values to reduce their stun (this value can be a whole number 32, 33, 34, 35, or 36).
So what am I trying to say with this thread? Well, let's do a little math. The hitstun we were using for a while which we have only recently said is too easy to escape is .484. The hitstun we have decided to set it at now is .4865, and apparently it "feels a lot better." But by how much did the hitstun of moves actually increase? The hitstun with this new setting lasts approximately 1.005165x as many frames as it did with the lower setting. Doesn't sound like a lot, does it? Yeah... using a move that has 3000 launch speed (for a point of reference, marth's tipper fsmash on a 0% pit has a launch speed of 2965) against a character with a 34 (average) division constant produces 43 frames of stun with .484 hitstun. The same move at .4865 produces... 43 frames of hitstun. Kupo has it down at .48, which would also give 43 frames of stun. Notice a problem here? These small minute changes in hitstun aren't going to affect anything by more than a single frame, if that.
Now, there is another variable in the hitstun formula: the division constant. Let's try playing around with that, some. Using .485 as a multiplier, let's try a 3000 launch speed move against a character with a 32 division constant and against a character with a 36 division constant (the two extremes). The 32 character suffers 46 frames of hitstun. The 36 character suffers only 41 frames of hitstun. That's a 5 frame difference, which is considerably more than we were getting with changing the multiplier.
Can you see how we've been tricking ourselves with these values, now? We've all been under one huge placebo this entire time. We play for a while, think "oh, the hitstun is too high," try a lower value, and because we think we can escape more, we actually try to do so, and thus succeed more frequently. Or we think "hey this is too low" and turn it up slightly, and we start feeling like we can combo easier now. It doesn't help that the human mind tends to remember events that we consider to be "strange" or "out of the ordinary," and just sort of glosses over the stuff we perceive to be "common" or "insignificant." So certain things are going to stand out when we're doing these tests more than others, thus making us think we need to go higher or lower with the hitstun. It doesn't help that there can be (relatively) large variances in hitstun across different characters, which may or may not have received an appropriate amount of gravity for their division constant, thus amplifying the effect one way or the other. And this is all coming back to shape our opinions on if whatever insignificant change we made to the hitstun constant is "good."
If we want to make hitstun appropriate for all characters, we're going to need to do one of two things: 1) give all characters the same gravity modification, so that their fall speeds are still in proportion with their division constants, or 2) get a modifier for the char spec division constant allowing us to give each character their ideal division constant that correctly compensates for their gravity. We are also going to need to make more drastic changes to the multiplication constant if we want to see any significant effect.
Oh yeah, and just for the fun of it... remember when we were at "12%" hitstun (.52)? Well, a 3000 launch speed move on a 34 division constant character would deal 46 frames of hitstun; that's only 3 frames more than is dealt out with our current hitstun constant!
I'm sure you've heard me say a million times that the hitstun equation is:
h = m*l / d
Where H is hitstun in frames, M is the multiplication constant (what we edit), L is the launch speed of the move, and D is a char spec division constant where chars with faster fall accelerations (at least in normal brawl) were given higher values to reduce their stun (this value can be a whole number 32, 33, 34, 35, or 36).
So what am I trying to say with this thread? Well, let's do a little math. The hitstun we were using for a while which we have only recently said is too easy to escape is .484. The hitstun we have decided to set it at now is .4865, and apparently it "feels a lot better." But by how much did the hitstun of moves actually increase? The hitstun with this new setting lasts approximately 1.005165x as many frames as it did with the lower setting. Doesn't sound like a lot, does it? Yeah... using a move that has 3000 launch speed (for a point of reference, marth's tipper fsmash on a 0% pit has a launch speed of 2965) against a character with a 34 (average) division constant produces 43 frames of stun with .484 hitstun. The same move at .4865 produces... 43 frames of hitstun. Kupo has it down at .48, which would also give 43 frames of stun. Notice a problem here? These small minute changes in hitstun aren't going to affect anything by more than a single frame, if that.
Now, there is another variable in the hitstun formula: the division constant. Let's try playing around with that, some. Using .485 as a multiplier, let's try a 3000 launch speed move against a character with a 32 division constant and against a character with a 36 division constant (the two extremes). The 32 character suffers 46 frames of hitstun. The 36 character suffers only 41 frames of hitstun. That's a 5 frame difference, which is considerably more than we were getting with changing the multiplier.
Can you see how we've been tricking ourselves with these values, now? We've all been under one huge placebo this entire time. We play for a while, think "oh, the hitstun is too high," try a lower value, and because we think we can escape more, we actually try to do so, and thus succeed more frequently. Or we think "hey this is too low" and turn it up slightly, and we start feeling like we can combo easier now. It doesn't help that the human mind tends to remember events that we consider to be "strange" or "out of the ordinary," and just sort of glosses over the stuff we perceive to be "common" or "insignificant." So certain things are going to stand out when we're doing these tests more than others, thus making us think we need to go higher or lower with the hitstun. It doesn't help that there can be (relatively) large variances in hitstun across different characters, which may or may not have received an appropriate amount of gravity for their division constant, thus amplifying the effect one way or the other. And this is all coming back to shape our opinions on if whatever insignificant change we made to the hitstun constant is "good."
If we want to make hitstun appropriate for all characters, we're going to need to do one of two things: 1) give all characters the same gravity modification, so that their fall speeds are still in proportion with their division constants, or 2) get a modifier for the char spec division constant allowing us to give each character their ideal division constant that correctly compensates for their gravity. We are also going to need to make more drastic changes to the multiplication constant if we want to see any significant effect.
Oh yeah, and just for the fun of it... remember when we were at "12%" hitstun (.52)? Well, a 3000 launch speed move on a 34 division constant character would deal 46 frames of hitstun; that's only 3 frames more than is dealt out with our current hitstun constant!
