Hitstun in Smash 4

[TheHypnotoad]

So according to SmashWiki, Melee and Brawl had the same hitstun multiplier, but Brawl allowed you to do an action after a certain number of frames, regardless of how much hitstun was sustained. Supposedly, the ability to act out of hitstun was removed in Smash 4, so combos are supposed to be easier. But I think it's pretty obvious that the amount of hitstun in Smash 4 is much less than in Melee. So this means one of either two things: the hitstun multiplier was drastically reduced, or the ability to act out of hitstun wasn't actually removed. If it's the former, what is the hitstun multiplier in Smash 4? If it's the latter, why do people keep saying that the combo game is better than Brawl's?

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Because in Brawl you could just airdodge out of hitstun. You didn't have to experience all of the frames of hitstun, you could just airdodge and ignore it. You can't do that in Smash 4 anymore.

Then when you read further down the page, it says that since most moves have gotten knockback buffs, its still not as easy to combo as it was in Melee.

You've got to admit that despite this, Smash 4 is still infinitely better for comboing than Brawl, because again, you don't have a free pass out of hitstun.

It's sort of difficult to test for the hitstun multiplier. First, we'd have to get a move that applies the same amount of knockback under the same conditions between Brawl and Smash 4. Then, we'd have to find out how much hitstun it applies in Brawl. I heard Falco's FTilt is the same but idk.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

I believe the problem is actually the knockback and angles on moves preventing combos, while hitstun is fine. They're too far away from you once you can act again, so there's no chance of reaching them in time.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Even for moves with relatively low knockback, there have been dozens of times where an opponent has airdodged out of a combo and I think "That would have connected in Melee." I refuse to believe that the hitstun multiplier is the same as in Melee and Brawl.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Well it was never said that it was the same, so I wouldn't doubt that they lowered the multiplier as a "trade-off" for mechanics that favour comboing more.

Remember, Sakurai doesn't want another beautiful mistake like Melee, but he also saw how poorly received Brawl's mechanics were.

 

[srn347]

According to smashwiki, the ability to act out of hitstun (13 frames to air dodge, 25 to use an aerial) was only removed for being sent "far distances" (I have no idea the exact amount of knockback this refers to).

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

The ability to make combos, while not being Melee-like, is harder to do since the base knockback of many moves is bigger... The hitstun itself is much greater than Brawl. If I am not wrong, the hitstun also gets bigger with more damage.

 

[srn347]

Hitstun has always scaled with damage, as hitstun is knockback proportional and knockback is proportional to damage.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Moves in Smash 4 generally send farther than Melee counterparts. The biggest culprits that could serve as exceptions are jabs and projectiles. Low damaging moves with low base knockback. They don't deal a lot of hitstun, but they keep the target nearby for a followup. Several throws happen to also meet this criteria, allowing for true combos out of them as well. The problem with combos in Smash 4 is that knockback growth is directly influenced not just by how much damage the target has sustained, but also in how much damage the moves deal. This new concept makes comparisons to melee and Brawl difficult, even impossible. And the most direct result is making combos nearly impossible with power characters unless you're doing cute things with moves that happen to frame trap the opponent.

What's really interesting is how this strengthens and weakens power characters like Bowser. Bowser has extremely low combo potential due to these changes in knockback (not that he had any combos in previous games anyway). However, his moveset deals 12-24% damage with each move, and that allows him to secure kills at extreme percents with anything he can really land on the target, rather than having to make reads in order to land specific "kill moves". Every high damaging attack now functions as a kill move

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

Hitstun has always scaled with damage, as hitstun is knockback proportional and knockback is proportional to damage.

I actually never noticed it in any combo video. Thanks!

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Base damage has always factored into the KB formula though, that isn't anything new.

 

[Big O]

In Brawl, past a certain theshold of knockback you could act out of hitstun with pretty much anything except specials and jumps. In Smash 4 you can still act out of hitstun, but it happens much later than in Brawl. When you bounce off of something you can attack/air dodge out of hitstun a lot sooner than usual, but outside of that you only get out of hitstun a couple frames early at best.

The biggest reason you can't combo like you could in Melee is because the characters in Melee moved way faster, had more gravity, and aerials had half the usual landing lag. When you jumped your ground momentum transferred to your air momentum so you pretty much could casually fly into them on demand. The extra gravity made all pillar-esque combos and Dthrow chain grabs way stronger. All aerials having half the landing lag, more lenient AC windows, and could be edge canceled, making them all way better at starting combos.

SHFF aerials due to all the above factors had incredible offensive potential and could easily transition into crazy and stylish death combos. SHFF aerials executed in like half the time, went about twice as far, and had around half the total lag (less air time and 1/2 landing lag). The mobility specs and lag on attacks are just on completely different levels between games. If Melee had Brawl hitstun mechanics and air dodges, its combo potential would still be leagues ahead of Brawl's with Melee hitstun mechanics (aka Smash 4).

All that said, I do think smash is better off without SSB64 and Melee level combos. I was never a fan of extended combos in fighting games, but that's just my opinion. I like the greater emphasis on the neutral game and footsies that Smash 4 and Brawl have.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

In Brawl, past a certain theshold of knockback you could act out of hitstun with pretty much anything except specials and jumps. In Smash 4 you can still act out of hitstun, but it happens much later than in Brawl.

So let me get this straight. So, in Brawl, you could airdodge after 13 frames and attack after 25 frames, regardless of the knockback received. You're saying that in Smash 4 it is similar, but the numbers are higher than 13 and 25? Am I understanding that correctly?

 

[Big O]

So let me get this straight. So, in Brawl, you could airdodge after 13 frames and attack after 25 frames, regardless of the knockback received. You're saying that in Smash 4 it is similar, but the numbers are higher than 13 and 25? Am I understanding that correctly?

It is similar, but slightly different. Lets say a move has 50 frames of hitstun. In Brawl you'd air dodge past 13 frames and aerial past 25. In Melee you were stuck for 50 frames. In Smash 4 you won't be able do anything until like the last few frames of hitstun where you can aerial/air dodge.

I don't think there is a universal point at which hitstun is cancelable like there was in Brawl. I'd guess hitstun canceling is probably either only allowable x frames before it ends, or tied to when your momentum shifts (which would explain why stage spikes and ground bounces allow you to cancel hitstun super early). Either way, it's not really that big a deal in the grand scheme of things. It just means that there are a few "un-combos" that show up as a combo in training mode, but can be air dodged/Nair'd out of.

 

[srn347]

I'd guess hitstun canceling is probably either only allowable x frames before it ends, or tied to when your momentum shifts (which would explain why stage spikes and ground bounces allow you to cancel hitstun super early).

When you bounce off of a surface (including stage spikes and ground bounces) you lose 20% of your velocity. However, since hitstun is determined at the moment of the initial hit, you keep the hitstun that was based off of the initial knockback. So it might just be that it feels super early for the amount of knockback received after the bounce.

 

[Shaya]

Another major factor to combos that "would've worked in Melee" don't work in Smash 4 is because you can air dodge out of tumble when hit stun ends.
You cannot do the same in Melee, only aerial; you have to 'wiggle' or time out the tumble animation before air dodging. This gave floaty characters with fast nairs a "get out of jail free card" that most of the cast did not have.

 

[Doval]

When you bounce off of a surface (including stage spikes and ground bounces) you lose 20% of your velocity. However, since hitstun is determined at the moment of the initial hit, you keep the hitstun that was based off of the initial knockback. So it might just be that it feels super early for the amount of knockback received after the bounce.

Correct description of what happens, wrong conclusion. You end up with extra stun relative to your distance traveled. Slamming an opponent against the stage makes combos easier, and it's why down throws work so well for combos.

Something nobody has mentioned is that air dodging in Melee is pure suicide. So any time you got knocked up, your options are to try to beat their up air with your down air (sometimes impossible) or try to land on a platform or the edge. In Smash 4 you can always air dodge, so the opponent has to get a read instead of always going for the aerial.

 

[SuaveChaser]

I wish you could do combos like melee in this game at least.

 

[Ulevo]

The base knock back is higher with many moves in Smash IV, and the movement options are just not the same. You simply move faster in Melee. You can have all the hitstun you like, but if you can't travel from point A to point B before the hitstun wears off, it won't translate in to a combo.

 

[Judo777]

Also in melee everyone could cancel the lag of all of their aerials upon landing lol that certainly helps.

 

[srn347]

Also in melee everyone could cancel the lag of all of their aerials upon landing lol that certainly helps.

Not all of it, only half. In smash 64, L-cancelling cancelled all of it.

 

[LightLV]

The reason combos were bigger in Melee has alot to do with the faster physics, but also to do with the fact tumbling had to be cancelled first. You could still jump and attack out of it, but you couldn't airdoge until it was broken.

In brawl you could cancel it with an airdodge, rendering the vast majority of it useless. In Smash 4 this isn't possible anymore, although the knockback on most moves have been deliberately tweaked to make them impossible to combo off of.

 

[Balgorxz]

actually smash4 has a lot of hitstun, the thing it's that most of the moves have high base KB and attacks have a lot of end lagg.
this makes people think the game has little hitstun

 

[DungeonMaster]

Hitstun, characters flying away from impact, is not the only aspect of combos in smash4. There are character specific additional frames at the end of being launched that allow for combos. Some characters have many more frames of vulnerability than others. You can take R.O.B for instance, after being launched he totters in the air and falls over like a tree for several frames. He is very easily *true* combo-ed. Whereas Villager will flip upside down for 1 frame, and then he's back in control, he's very poorly *true* combo-ed.

 

[Artmastercorey]

actually smash4 has a lot of hitstun, the thing it's that most of the moves have high base KB and attacks have a lot of end lagg.
this makes people think the game has little hitstun

Even if you hit yoshi? He seems to attack almost immediatly

 

[teluoborg]

Even if you hit yoshi? He seems to attack almost immediatly

He's talking about how fast moves end, not how fast they begin. While both are important, having low cooldown on your moves is way more crucial to start and maintain combos.