Q&A Hint Block: Yoshi Question and Answer Thread

[Pixel_]

Yeah, jab is the safest option out of grab release, but Down-B works when they shield. Meanwhile, if they have a jab faster than Yoshi's 3 frames, then shielding is probably better. If the opponent just decides to run away, then you might be able to chase them.

The reverse down+b that people were talking about in the perfect shield thread is a pretty nice option also, I was messing around with it yesterday and was able to land a lot more hits with it than I thought I would.

With or without crawling? Actually, a better question is how much do you crawl? I have trouble doing it much because most matches are too fast-paced.

 

[Codaption]

What about his grab release? I prefer them over throws almost every time. It's basically a rock-paper-scissors match once the opponent gets released, but I've gotten some broken shields with Down-B.

The issue with Yoshi's grab release is that he has no real answer to shield out of it, especially since shields are faster than anything Yoshi can throw out. Yoshi bomb can work, but if you shield the first hit you have plenty of time to punish the second. Shield drop counters, Oos Usmashes or Uspecials, even spotdodge (though I think they'd still get hit by the starts depending on the spacing).

I'd say the most reliable plan is to try running or jumping away most of the time, really, and save the mixups for higher percents. That way you can condition them to try and chase you, when they could potentially eat a Yoshi Bomb or a Usmash for their troubles.

And that's it, you can't underestimate a throw game just when there's no true combos. Nor can you underestimate Yoshi because he lacks true combos. But I'm thinking though, what gives Yoshi loads of potential is that while there may be no true combos, his frame data allows for loads of almost guaranteed mix-ups as you said.

The thing is that they can jump away from the followup long before you can put a hitbox there, on top of airdodging or throwing out an attack of their own. You can read the option they choose, for sure, but the odds are generally in their favor and overall it's a lot less scary than getting grabbed and eating a hoo-hah.

Still, it's a neat way to trip up opponents who aren't expecting it.

 

[Egg.]

I wasn't able to get in a lot of crawling in, but it seemed to be most effective when I was just barely outside of the range of anything they could throw out. Crawling is slow, but in the backwards crouching position you're sometimes able to bait people to come in closer than they should because they don't think you can respond, then you can powershield/crawl away from their attacks or throw out a down+b. I don't think it's something you should rely on, but it's still an option to keep in mind.

 

[Delta-cod]

I genuinely know nothing about Yoshi. I've never tried using him and I don't usually go against him as I usually play with my friends who don't play him either. I've been told that Yoshi is a good secondary for Tink and just wanted to ask if anyone could give me some beginners advice. Combos? Things to do/avoid? Any techniques or things I need to practice? Thanks.

General combo type things involved Jab 1 > Down B/Usmash/whatever your heart would like to try. Also, Utilt > Utilt/Uair type stuff.

Avoid burning your jump -- it's your recovery. Avoid Down B-ing to the ground, it's punishable. Avoid Egg Tossing in neutral against fast opponents. Avoid trying to grab a lot -- the grab is bad and doesn't reward you much.

Practice B-reversals/turnaround Bs/Wavebounces. Egg Lay (neutral B) is a great tool for landing and momentum shifts.

 

[DJlive]

Down+b is great, but a good player shouldn't get their shield broken by it if they're paying attention. If they shield the first hit, the time it takes for the second hit to come out is plenty to roll out of the way and possibly punish if they have a quick dash attack. It's best used as a mixup when they aren't expecting it, kind of similar to Shulk's backslash.

The reverse down+b that people were talking about in the perfect shield thread is a pretty nice option also, I was messing around with it yesterday and was able to land a lot more hits with it than I thought I would.

Right, when they know you can perfect shield both hits, their shields don't break. I prefer to do it when they're playing too defensively because I've been throwing hitboxes to pressure. I've baited top players here to over shield and have gotten many shield breaks this way. Recently, I've done this with off stage antics as well, relying on down b to ledge to refresh my double jump in case the option they're choosing can kill. When they start over shielding, dair can also break their shield. I honestly think if we balance dair, down b, egg lay and grab, we can get more attacks in because they'll be shielding less.

With regards to oos down b, it's the reverses that normally work. They'll kinda be a bit more complacent if your back is behind them and if you're a bit inconsistent with reversing. And I like to us use this to bait and kill. Like I'll run away shield, let them approach then surprise reverse down b. But this shouldn't be abused. Otherwise it's more punishing habits with perfect shield down b, my favorite are those who approach with dash attack and aerials a lot.

 

[The_Ghosty]

General combo type things involved Jab 1 > Down B/Usmash/whatever your heart would like to try. Also, Utilt > Utilt/Uair type stuff.

Avoid burning your jump -- it's your recovery. Avoid Down B-ing to the ground, it's punishable. Avoid Egg Tossing in neutral against fast opponents. Avoid trying to grab a lot -- the grab is bad and doesn't reward you much.

Practice B-reversals/turnaround Bs/Wavebounces. Egg Lay (neutral B) is a great tool for landing and momentum shifts.

Was wondering if there's anything I need to do when trying to Jab > Up Smash, I always either get Jab 2 or they're able to get out of it before Up Smash hits.. Thanks!

 

[Pixel_]

Was wondering if there's anything I need to do when trying to Jab > Up Smash, I always either get Jab 2 or they're able to get out of it before Up Smash hits.. Thanks!

It has to hit with the tip of the shoe, otherwise you can just do a Fsmash, Dtilt, or Dsmash. It's because the tip of the shoe hits them a bit upwards while the closer hitbox hits them away.

 

[Codaption]

What I generally do is Jab 1, then a a dash input followed by JC Usmash. it's starting to overtake Uair as my main kill method.

Another thing you wanna figure out with Yoshi is eggs. They're incredibly versatile and can be used in a lot of interesting ways once you figure out how to angle them properly- covering your recovery, pressuring, comboing, etc. though, the comboing is a bit tough from what I can tell, but since eggs can lead into basically everything I personally have made it a goal to utilize them more for this.

 

[DJlive]

Was wondering if there's anything I need to do when trying to Jab > Up Smash, I always either get Jab 2 or they're able to get out of it before Up Smash hits.. Thanks!

Just to add, while not necessary, you can quickly press down before you do the usmash. This helps the timing.

 

[DJlive]

What I generally do is Jab 1, then a a dash input followed by JC Usmash. it's starting to overtake Uair as my main kill method.

Hmm this sounds like a good mix up. Although there are reasons you'd want to Jab dsmash/fsmash instead when you're near the ledge.

 

[Codaption]

it's something I picked up since doing it the normal way is so spacing-dependent and doesn't seem to be guarenteed regardless, at least not until ridiculous percents. Of course, Fsmash and Dsmash are still pretty useful depending on the situation as they always are.

EDIT: I actually have a few questions to ask regarding ways to set up for a Uair kill and their reliability.

-Fastfall Fair: Obviously not a go-to option due to teching and the ability to punish it oos, though I'm curious as to how punishable oos it is on reaction. Fair's startup is punishable, so it's a risky option regardless.

On hit, though, it seems like an excessively true followup if they don't tech; the training room combo meter tells me it can't be jumped out of, and factoring in the absurd hitstun on meteors should be enough to cover for airdodging as well.

-Uthrow: Not true in any capacity. However, I've been debating using it to set up for a read, as Uthrow followed by a shorthop basically forces them to commit to some sort of option. Get a grab at 115ish, tack on a few pummels, and guess right, and you might have just gotten yourself a kill.

Sadly, it seems significantly less effective on BF and other platform stages, but stages like FD and maaaaybe Duck Hunt/Smashville (T&C, too, when the platforms go away anyhow) might be worth trying this out on.

-Eggs: Like I mentioned above, this is something I'm personally very interested in even if it's not always particularly reliable... really, just egg combos as a general thing interest me. At the very least, I can vouch for how rewarding it can be sometimes when you keep an eye out for the times when the opportunity for a followup presents itself upon landing a hit with a thrown egg.

So how reliable are all of these? Fair I'm expecting to get shot down, but Uthrow and Eggs really seem like they have a lot of potential.

 

[DJlive]

I use for fairs because I can do autocancel Jab. But it isn't as useful because of the long start-up. If the opponent doesn't expect it, really good move to lead to uair. But if they do, best to ditch then just Jab utilt uair.

The benefit of uthrow is that di is a tad more readable and more timing forgiving given it tosses it higher. But as kb grows, this becomes even less viable, as you would not reach the opponent. I'm more inclined to go go for preconditioning using fthrow/bthrow then use dthrow.

I heart eggs. If your opponent is near the ledge, you can throw a short egg then it places your opponent into the best position for a spike. If you do this often, you can bait an air dodge. If not, just spike. Did this on two occasions against a Luigi.

And as for Jab being spacing dependent. What makes it easy for me is this. Too close for comfort, bring him up into the air, anything further, get him off stage. Statistically for me, my spacing ends up always best for fsmash so I do that more. If they shield or air dodge, I also end up charging the fsmash.

 

[The_Ghosty]

Thanks guys, when watching many Yoshi videos, it definitely seems like a must so it's been bugging me bad lol. I'll have to keep practicing it I guess.

Codaption :
Fair to Uair is definitely something I've used a lot, if you move fast enough and they miss the tech it's definitely a good kill option. Of course I'd say you don't want to just constantly throw it out as even if you do a retreating Fair you may get punished depending on the character/reaction.

Uthrow I haven't really thought of or tried much, conditioning an air dodge. DI or jump may be something to think about. I'll keep it in mind, of course with Yoshi's endlag on grab it may be too risky at high %'s.

Eggs always lead me to something great, I've gotten tons of Egg > Usmash or Egg Utilt or even Egg > Egg > Utilt. I definitely think catching players out of egg helps Yoshi's game a ton.

 

[Pixel_]

Is Yoshi the only non-multijump character to be able to change directions with his second jump? Not really a reason for asking, just think it's an interesting property.

 

[DJlive]

Is Yoshi the only non-multijump character to be able to change directions with his second jump? Not really a reason for asking, just think it's an interesting property.

Looks like it. It's interesting though I don't know if there's much practical application other than escape and recovery.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

Looks like it. It's interesting though I don't know if there's much practical application other than escape and recovery.

Being able to adapt which side is your fair and which side is your bair is pretty important, IMO

 

[DJlive]

Being able to adapt which side is your fair and which side is your bair is pretty important, IMO

Just realized this gives loads of flexibility for far-flung aerial attacks, may have been using this very unconsciously. It's probably a benefit that makes me go back to Yoshi despite trying different characters. Of course you can have a character like Villager or Zelda who has the same fair and bair though.

 

[Codaption]

The benefit of uthrow is that di is a tad more readable and more timing forgiving given it tosses it higher. But as kb grows, this becomes even less viable, as you would not reach the opponent. I'm more inclined to go go for preconditioning using fthrow/bthrow then use dthrow.

I've actually tested it in training mode a bit already- at kill percent, they're in the perfect range where you can either just raw uair or bait something out for a Usmash. Uair should definitely be possible immediately out of it for quite a while, and if not then you just let them drift down to you until it is (extra points if you make them burn their double jump). It's not meant to be a combo or anything, just a juggle setup.

Dthrow I've debated with myself, but for what I'm envisioning here it doesn't seem to have that much use over Uthrow. That said, it might have some additional value to it that I'm just not seeing- the position might be just right to set up for a Fair, which could lead to something interesting.

 

[DJlive]

Dthrow I've debated with myself, but for what I'm envisioning here it doesn't seem to have that much use over Uthrow. That said, it might have some additional value to it that I'm just not seeing- the position might be just right to set up for a Fair, which could lead to something interesting.

There's a thread here that outlines that if the enemy doesn't DI in front of Yoshi, it can be a true combo at kill percent though... So you can precondition Di by using fthrow/bthrow. But honestly, I don't grab much.

 

[Pixel_]

- Is Jab1 safe on shield?
- How do you guys land Egg Lays? Obviously it's helpful to make the opponent scared to shield, but I'm having trouble landing Egg Lays because of how awkward it is.

 

[DJlive]

- Is Jab1 safe on shield?
- How do you guys land Egg Lays? Obviously it's helpful to make the opponent scared to shield, but I'm having trouble landing Egg Lays because of how awkward it is.

Jab not so safe on shield, still do it though. Got KO punched stupidly because of this. Lol.

I land egg lay more as b reverse. For some reason, everyone falls for it. I look like I'm running then I return using b reverse. Doing that with forward and backward momentum wavebounce now as well. I also do regular egg lay offstage after conditioning using et/fair recoveries. Oh and I also do retreating regular egg lay, to make my opponent go more off stage.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

Just realized this gives loads of flexibility for far-flung aerial attacks, may have been using this very unconsciously. It's probably a benefit that makes me go back to Yoshi despite trying different characters. Of course you can have a character like Villager or Zelda who has the same fair and bair though.

It's incredibly useful in doubles, if the opponent's teammate is coming up on you while you're focused on the other and you can catch them with something they're not expecting.

Now that you've got me really thinking about it... you could condition your opponent to expect Fair every time they're off stage, and once you get them pretty far out, they see you coming and they air dodge for a Fair, but instead you turn around and use Bair. That last hit should kill if you do that.

 

[DJlive]

Now that you've got me really thinking about it... you could condition your opponent to expect Fair every time they're off stage, and once you get them pretty far out, they see you coming and they air dodge for a Fair, but instead you turn around and use Bair. That last hit should kill if you do that.

But that means the only way you can recover after is using et, a bit too risky, but rewarding.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

But that means the only way you can recover after is using et, a bit too risky, but rewarding.

Good to keep in mind. Maybe this works better depending on stage, or not as far out as I'd initially thought. You could always make it a rising Bair and make that part of your recovery too.

 

[DJlive]

Good to keep in mind. Maybe this works better depending on stage, or not as far out as I'd initially thought. You could always make it a rising Bair and make that part of your recovery too.

True but to make it convincing, you'd want to go deeper. But that also sets you up for a nasty footstool. And then you have to consider certain characters you'd never use it on since their recoveries break your armor like Mario.

Offstage, I prefer to fair, dair or rising nair anyway. Nair still stage spikes. Dair spikes. And fair, well spikes. Lol. Bair is only good for me on stage so it still spikes.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

True but to make it convincing, you'd want to go deeper. But that also sets you up for a nasty footstool. And then you have to consider certain characters you'd never use it on since their recoveries break your armor like Mario.

Offstage, I prefer to fair, dair or rising nair anyway. Nair still stage spikes. Dair spikes. And fair, well spikes. Lol. Bair is only good for me on stage so it still spikes.

Believe in the run-off Bair. Works like a charm for many characters if they're coming in low, particularly Cloud, Sonic, and Pit/Dark Pit. Works on Rosie too, but her recovery is so good she can still make it back even if she doesn't tech it - and Robin is possible, but iffy because if you time it wrong you could get spiked yourself.

Alternately, I couldn't even tell you how many kills I've got with Uair offstage. A lot of people don't expect it - again, thanks to conditioning, they're expecting a Fair and more worried about being knocked down, or even a Nair that might throw them farther out. They tend to forget that they're in kill percent for Uair, and I get the same surprised reaction every single time.

I would argue Dair is not a great offstage option because it knocks the opponent up at the end, so unless you're lucky and nail a stage spike you've put them in an advantageous position over you. It's also a long animation to be locked in offstage if you miss.

 

[DJlive]

Believe in the run-off Bair. Works like a charm for many characters if they're coming in low, particularly Cloud, Sonic, and Pit/Dark Pit. Works on Rosie too, but her recovery is so good she can still make it back even if she doesn't tech it - and Robin is possible, but iffy because if you time it wrong you could get spiked yourself.

Alternately, I couldn't even tell you how many kills I've got with Uair offstage. A lot of people don't expect it - again, thanks to conditioning, they're expecting a Fair and more worried about being knocked down, or even a Nair that might throw them farther out. They tend to forget that they're in kill percent for Uair, and I get the same surprised reaction every single time.

I would argue Dair is not a great offstage option because it knocks the opponent up at the end, so unless you're lucky and nail a stage spike you've put them in an advantageous position over you. It's also a long animation to be locked in offstage if you miss.

I forgot about uair, I do that a lot, depending on positioning.

Dair takes practice. But it's the best tool you have against characters with heavy armor recoveries, like Yoshi or Corrin.

 

[Codaption]

There's a thread here that outlines that if the enemy doesn't DI in front of Yoshi, it can be a true combo at kill percent though... So you can precondition Di by using fthrow/bthrow. But honestly, I don't grab much.

I just tested it out in training mode. While it's possible to get a combo that they can't jump out of, your timing has to be perfect, and factoring in hitstun canceling any half-decent airdodge would be able to escape it.

That and the fact that di straight-up breaks it means I see no reason to try and implement this.

Believe in the run-off Bair. Works like a charm for many characters if they're coming in low, particularly Cloud, Sonic, and Pit/Dark Pit. Works on Rosie too, but her recovery is so good she can still make it back even if she doesn't tech it - and Robin is possible, but iffy because if you time it wrong you could get spiked yourself.

Alternately, I couldn't even tell you how many kills I've got with Uair offstage. A lot of people don't expect it - again, thanks to conditioning, they're expecting a Fair and more worried about being knocked down, or even a Nair that might throw them farther out. They tend to forget that they're in kill percent for Uair, and I get the same surprised reaction every single time.

I would argue Dair is not a great offstage option because it knocks the opponent up at the end, so unless you're lucky and nail a stage spike you've put them in an advantageous position over you. It's also a long animation to be locked in offstage if you miss.

Drift away from them on hit- Dair has hitboxes on either side that launch at an extremely low angle on the last hit, and if you avoid the last hit altogether you're going to drag them straight down into the abyss. The active hitboxes are also really good for catching ledge snap vulnerability frames.

And yeah, offstage Uair is pretty sexy sometimes. I've gotten a number of kills with it myself, it's a great tool at higher percents.

 

[DJlive]

I believe for dair that spikes, we call that the rising dair. You have to sdi upward so you don't get the last hitbox that pops the opponent back up.

Another spike option is the stage canceled ff bair. You can use the stage to cancel your bair so only the first two hits effect. It's easier if you've full hopped then just implement the bair on the way down.

 

[RebelXII]

I asked a question about the Bowser MU on the Yoshi match up portal. Any help would be much appreciated.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

I believe for dair that spikes, we call that the rising dair. You have to sdi upward so you don't get the last hitbox that pops the opponent back up.

Another spike option is the stage canceled ff bair. You can use the stage to cancel your bair so only the first two hits effect. It's easier if you've full hopped then just implement the bair on the way down.

I get stage-canceled Bairs pretty frequently on-stage, and that combos into ftilt at any percent. Haven't been lucky enough to do that at ledge yet... I'll keep an eye out for opportunities there.

 

[Pixel_]

How do you guys deal with baity/defensive players? Since both Fair and Eggs are punishable, it's really hard to get a hit in, and Bair doesn't really help either.

I was going to put a video here but it was too long to upload; I fought a Falcon a little while ago who wouldn't commit to anything until I did something punishable. Somehow I won, but do you guys have any tips?

Also I'm having trouble with the Ness matchup

 

[Delta-cod]

How do you guys deal with baity/defensive players? Since both Fair and Eggs are punishable, it's really hard to get a hit in, and Bair doesn't really help either.

I was going to put a video here but it was too long to upload; I fought a Falcon a little while ago who wouldn't commit to anything until I did something punishable. Somehow I won, but do you guys have any tips?

Also I'm having trouble with the Ness matchup

Speaking from my own experience as a baity/defensive player, I can say that this type usually has some sort of standard pattern for the baits/defense. You can feint a few approaches to see how they react to different situations, then just go for the punish on that option for what they usually do. Naturally, a good player will then start mixing up what they do, but now we get into yomi levels, etc. etc.

As a simple example, in Brawl Yoshis tended to pivot grab on reaction to an opponent's approach. Since this was pretty well understood, I'd get beat by people doing stuff like Run > Spotdodge > Owies. As a result I'd do weird stuff like jab instead (less vulnerable to spotdodge). This would cycle into a more aggressive approach from my opponent, and thus I could pivot grab again, etc.

What exactly you can do changes based on what the opponent is doing exactly. On the one hand, if they aren't doing anything at all but reacting to you, you have initiative which is pretty important. Reaction times aren't that great, most people are doing soft reads + reactions, so figuring out their basic response is a must. On the other hand, you need to be really familiar with yours and the opponent's options so you can get around their plan.

Regarding Ness... I dunno. How does his Fair interact with our moves? That's basically his main option, yeah?

 

[KenboCalrissian]

Regarding Ness... I dunno. How does his Fair interact with our moves? That's basically his main option, yeah?

Fair beats pretty much all of our moves without trade, but you can shad-utilt or shad-nair through it. Do that a few times and he'll cut it out. Also, we can DJ-armor out of his fair-fair-fair combo as long as we're DI-ing away from it.

 

[Codaption]

yeah, that thing has the tiniest speck of disjoint that somehow manages to give us as much trouble as it does. SHAD sounds like the best option there, really, Uair could also be a good choice out of it for extra damage/a kill.

 

[muddykips]

honestly? if your opponent is just blindly jumping around and throwing out aerials like that?

loosen them up with a sideb or two. like, don't do it to the point where they'll see it coming easy, but enough to get the point across that if they hop around mindlessly to try and wall you out, you'll just rush them down from below. it's stupid but it works.

i wouldn't really advise SHAD too much unless he's at kill%, since if you misspace or he sees you coming, you'll eat an uair.

 

[Nikes]

Not sure how many people do this but if he tries to start up a Dthrow Fair string at early %, DI behind/above him and he shouldn't be able to get it going. (at least in my experience anyway, even if he does a full hop Fair to get to you he won't have enough momentum to continue it)

Also I think Usmash probably beats his Fair if timed/spaced carefully.

 

[Pixel_]

Not sure how many people do this but if he tries to start up a Dthrow Fair string at early %, DI behind/above him and he shouldn't be able to get it going. (at least in my experience anyway, even if he does a full hop Fair to get to you he won't have enough momentum to continue it)

He's still able to Uair if he reacts to it, even if it doesn't really combo into anything

 

[Nikes]

He's still able to Uair if he reacts to it, even if it doesn't really combo into anything

This is true, and he can Nair out of it as well, but it minimizes the damage you'll take by not getting hit by the full string and just accepting it, and he won't be given absolute stage control right off the bat that way either. (now I wonder how soon we can Nair out of his Dthrow DIing like this? I'm pretty sure you can double jump away, but you still get hit by the Uair)

 

[Pixel_]

Oh yeah about using double jump to turn around, I think it can make Bair > Fair into a combo, which most characters can't do (Marth is the only exception that comes to mind).
Anyway I'm wondering what to do when I'm a stock behind. Going rushdown makes it really easy to get kills, but it's a lot harder to do that when your opponent can play defensive all they want. Should I just play the same as I would against a defensive player?